Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / March 2007
Citations on "pulsatile" irrigation
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kafir - 10 Mar 2007 20:59 GMT I've had three sinus surgeries in the last 11 years, all at the Mass. Eye and Ear Infirmary and all performed by surgeons on the staff of the Harvard Medical School. In each case, nasal irrigation was a standard part of the post-operative treatment. The doctors all agreed that routine irrigation might have prophylactic value as well. None of the doctors had ever heard of "pulsatile" irrigation or its alleged benefits for restoring cilia function. The surgeon who did my last surgery, in 2002, was Ralph Metson, so I was somewhat surprised at this recent exchange here about "pulsatile" irrigation:
vresdfr wrote
"... If it cured people, your doctor would know about it, he/she would tell you about it, you'd use it, you'd get better."
Murray Grossan replied
"Unless your doctors were at Mayo, Johns Hopkins, Denver Jewish, UC San Diego, etc or had read the 32 + articles that recommend pulsatile irrigation or had read Harvard Medical School Guide to Healing Your Sinuses by Metson, R. March 2005. Recommends use of Hydro Pulse for sinus therapy."
So I got Metson's book, hoping to read that sometime after our 2002 discussion he had became aware of some study about "pulsatile" irrigation and was now recommending it. In fact, he does not recommend "pulsatile" irrigation in this book - he recommends irrigating with a bulb syringe. On page 66 of the paperback edition he says, "There are many tools for irrigating your nose, but I'm a fan of KISS (keep it simple, stupid). All you really need is a bulb syringe..." (Interestingly, he also says tap water is as good as distilled, and table salt is as good as kosher salt for irrigation purposes).
He does refer to the Waterpik and Grossan tip (along with squeeze bottles and Neti pots) in his section called "Alternatives to the Bulb Syringe", On page 73, he says "Because the Waterpik delivers a relatively forceful, intermittent stream of salt water, many individuals find these devices very helpful to clear thick mucus and crusts." That's all he has to say on the subject - a brief mention of anecdotal evidence with nothing about restoring cilia or any study comparing its benefits to other irrigation methods. He does refer to the "intermittent stream", so I guess it can be argued that he now knows what "pulsatile" irrigation is.
This is the third time I have taken the trouble to track down one of Dr. Grossan's citations and, in all three cases, I have found he exagerated or otherwise misrepresented what the source was actually saying. I realize that there are many people here who feel that they have been helped by "pulsatile" irrigation and that other irrigation methods did not help. To those people I'd say it's great that you've found some relief from this horrible affliction. But it must be pointed out that Dr. Grossan's citations (at least all the ones I've tracked down) are inaccurate at best and deceptive at worst. In my view, this tends to discredit Dr. Grossan as a medical man or scientist, and gives "pulsatile" irrigation the whiff of snake oil.
Why make unsubstantiated claims for this product? Why provide misleading citations knowing that surely some people will take the trouble to go to the cited source?
If there is really some science behind "pulsatile" irrigation - any study at all that compares it to other methods, supports its benefits for cilia health, documents the Bernoulli effect, etc. - why not provide the full text here, or at least a link?
MS - 11 Mar 2007 05:31 GMT I agree. Nasal irrigation is recommended by many ENTs and allergists these days (although not all--one very prominent one I went to recommended against irrigation, and a few others as well), but none I have been to say it has to be "pulsatile", or that one has to use Dr. Grossan's product. The purpose of the irrigation is to wash out the accumulated gunk, none have said anything to me about it restoring the cilia. (If it does restore the cilia, it certainly has not worked for me. I have been irrigating pulsatilely(?) (via Waterpik) for decades now, and my nasal-sinus system is as screwed up as ever. (The irrigation does give me some relief, that's why I continue to do it, but I have no illusion that it will cure me.)
After reading this newsgroup and sinus literature for many years, I have seen no study comparing "pulsatile" irrigation with "non-pulsatile" irrigation, to compare the results of both methods. That is absolutely the only kind of study that could possibly show (or more likely, not show) that "pulsatile is superior to non-pulsatile". From what I have seen and heard, one form of irrigation is as good as another. And--- I have seen no evidence that it has "cured" anyone, although it can definitely give some relief.
I think Dr. Grossan genuinely believes what he says. But he too easily invents theories and believes in them wholeheartedly (for another instance, that sea salt is more contaminated than land salt), without any scientific evidence to support his theories, and gets mad when anyone dares question him here. Not very scientific, IMHO. (He certainly has been using this NG for many years to push his products. Just having that MD title gives him credibility to some. And--we are all so tired of being sick, we are sometimes too eager to believe someone who offers a "cure".)
> I've had three sinus surgeries in the last 11 years, all at the Mass. Eye > and Ear Infirmary and all performed by surgeons on the staff of the [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > health, documents the Bernoulli effect, etc. - why not provide the full > text here, or at least a link? MZB - 11 Mar 2007 21:32 GMT I agree. I'm always suspicious when an expert has a financial interest as in this case.
Mel
>I agree. Nasal irrigation is recommended by many ENTs and allergists these >days (although not all--one very prominent one I went to recommended [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] >> health, documents the Bernoulli effect, etc. - why not provide the full >> text here, or at least a link? truehawk - 12 Mar 2007 00:09 GMT To get a little better idea of this donnybrook take a look at David Rabago's comments about irrigation and Schied's reply.
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20051101/letters.html
In regard to Axleson's 1975 paper, if you kill off all the Smiths in a community, there are still all the Joneses. It is probable that Schied still thinks that a biofilm is something that is shown on the discovery channel. If he had ever taken time to look at mucus samples using the stain available to your adverage water chemist at your sewage treatment plant, or sections from his surgically removed samples he would realize that there is a complicated community there, and if you drop a single antibotic on the biofilm, vulnerable organisms are quickly replaced by those with more resistance. What they all share is adhesion factors and signaling. defeat the adhesion factors or find the right signal and it drops off.
neil0502@yahoo.com - 11 Mar 2007 06:05 GMT I'd say this one has a ring of credibility to it and deserves Dr. Grossan's direct response.
If he chooses to remain silent, then I, for one, will construe that as a validation of everything that kafir has posted.
That said, I hope it doesn't turn out that way.....
truehawk - 11 Mar 2007 09:51 GMT Geeze, this is just fluid dynamics. If you are going to clean something, pulse flow works better because it does not allow the development of a boundary layer with zero velocity at the surface.
Also pluse flow gets into trenches and cravasses better.
Check out the 8th slide of this presentation.
http://www.semizone.com/product-file/64/surf264/overview_notes.pdf
What it shows is that when there is a steady flow of fluid across a fluid filled trench, the flow causes the fluid in the trench to rotate, but there is little exchange between the fluid in the trench and the cleaning flow. In contrast, with pulsating flow the trench is flushed.
That said, the shear required to peal off a mature biofilm from boiler tubing is about 53Pa. High speed air is used to drive droplets to sufficent speed that the impact has enough energy to remove the film. Not something that you would want in your nose if you ever planned to use your head for anything but a paint layer again.
At the pressures recommended, pulse irrigation would only be able to remove biofilms in their very earliest stages of development. Irrigation might keep you from getting CS if you got the flu and did not wear a mask, but irrigated regularly.
If you already have CS it is very likely you already have at least one spot of biofilm. Flushing off the down stream surfaces regularly might keep the film from spreading as much as it might, but irrigation with water or saline would not remove it unless for some reason it has decided to leave anyway. Another method would have to be used to remove it. like the use of a quorem sensing chemical to tell it that it is time to move on, mechanical debridment, or radio ablation.
judy.n - 11 Mar 2007 13:59 GMT I also had surgery by Dr. Metson in 2000, and he only advocated the bulb syringe: as I posted before, I had a bad outcome, a pseudomonas bone infection, and Dr. Metson was not helpful post-op. My local ENT did two surgeries to remove dead bone and scars and he was adamant that the dark wet bulb syringe harbored pseudomonas. He also felt that the water pik like devices could be harmful, and he had me use the neti pot: easy to clean and he felt a high volume, low pressure flow was the best bet. He also likes the head position of the neti for irrigating. My local ENT actually tries all the irrigation products on himself. I concur that Dr. Grossan's sources are often outdated, and it's very interesting to have someone actually read a source and find that it doesn't support the claims. One of the best discussions about irrigation was in a comment after a family practice article on quality of life with irrigation--using the neti pot--by an ENT from Pitt. She just advocated hypertonic saline and a device that could be thoroughly cleaned to avoid "water loving bacteria". http://www.annfammed.org/cgi/eletters/4/4/295 Berrylin J Ferguson, Pittsburgh, USA M.D., University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine Send response to journal: Re: Commentary on: "Qualitative Aspects of Nasal Irrigation Use by Patients With Chronic Sinus Disease in a Multimethod Study"
Email Berrylin J Ferguson
The authors report on the quality of life improvements and reflections of over two dozen individuals utilizing hypertonic saline nasal irrigation on an as needed basis. The findings provide validation of the anecdotal experience of many rhinologists. Unique to this study was an apparent added benefit of group training and discussions, which gave these sufferers an additional benefit conferred from "group support", a benefit acknowledged in many disease states from cancer support groups to chronic debilitating diseases. I had not previously considered that this kind of group support might be helpful for chronic rhinosinusitis, but from the interviews it appears that it is indeed appreciated by the participants.
I can think of no way to perform a blinded controlled study of nasal irrigations, but that doesn't mean they are not effective. In fact, the efficacy of the irrigation frequently overshadows the efficacy of any number of added ingredients including antifungals, antibacterials, and topical steroids.1 The irrigation serves to remove nasal debris in noses that are not self-cleaning, which is particularly a problem in patients with nasal polyps or who have undergone extensive sinus/nasal surgery.
Nasal irrigation can also be helpful as a rinse to remove mucus before the application of a topical steroid or antibiotic. I commonly recommend a commercial nasal lavage kit, of which there are a half dozen or so available to assist with compliance. There are many commercially available nasal irrigators.2 I also provide our patients with a "recipe" so that they can make their own saline irrigation. Patients should be warned to use filtered or boiled water, and to make sure the device used for irrigation is cleaned frequently to prevent iatrogenic inoculation with water loving microbes such as Pseudomonas and Serratia.
The debate of hypertonic versus normal saline irrigation is sure to continue.3 I usually provide the patient with the recipe for hypertonic saline and suggest that they reduce the amount of salt they add, if they find that the hypertonic mixture is irritating. Interestingly, hypertonic inhaled saline has been shown to be beneficial in cystic fibrosis.4 Seven percent of patients with chronic rhinosinusitis carry a mutation for cystic fibrosis compared to 2% of normal controls. Thus there may be a variance in response to hypertonic versus isotonic saline irrigations, depending on the cause of the patient's rhinosinusitis.5
Finally, the authors capture in a qualitative manner the relief that patients feel with this technique. I still recall the words of a patient on her return visit, "I can't believe I've been suffering for 30 years with the sinus condition when relief was as easy and inexpensive as this salt water wash." A trial of hypertonic or isotonic saline nasal rinse is inexpensive, does not promote bacterial resistance, and safe. Saline irrigations should be a therapeutic alternative offered to any patients suffering from chronic rhinosinusitis.
References
1. Ferguson BJ. Antifungal Nasal Washes for Chronic Rhinosinusitis: What's Therapeutic -- The Watch or the Antifungal? J Allergy Clin Immunology 2003;111(11)37-8.
2. Tomooka LT, Murphy C, Davidson TM. Clinical Study Literature Review of Nasal Irrigation. Laryngoscope 2000;110(11)89-93.
3. Garavello W, Romagnoli M, Gaini RM. Hypertonic or Ice Tonic Saline for Allergic Rhinitis in Children. Pediatric Allergy and Immunology 2005;16:91.
4. Elkins MR, Robinson M, Rose BR, Harbour C, Moriarty CP, Marks GB, Belousova EG, Xuan W, Bye PT. National Hypertonic Saline in Cystic Fibrosis (NHSCF) Study Group. A Controlled Trial of Long-term Inhaled Hypertonic Saline in Patients with Cystic Fibrosis. N Engl J Med 2006;354:229-240.
5. Wang X, Moylan B, Leopold DA, Kim J, Rubenstein RC, Togias A, Proud D, Zeitlin PL, Cutting GR. Mutation in the Gene Responsible for Cystic Fibrosis and Predisposition to Chronic Rhinosinusitis in the General Population. JAMA 2000;284:1814-1819.
Competing interests: None declared
Susan has taken a lot of grief for suggesting that Dr. Grossan's claims are unproven. I think that often people hold strong beliefs, based on clinical experience, but have no evidence to support them.
Thanks for reading the Metson book. Personally I had such a bad experience with him, I couldn't look at it. Judy
> Geeze, this is just fluid dynamics. > If you are going to clean something, pulse flow works better because [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > quorem sensing chemical to tell it that it is time to move on, > mechanical debridment, or radio ablation.
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