Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / March 2007
Irrigation additives - alcohol
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Reid Goldsborough - 26 Feb 2007 21:05 GMT Has anybody tried experimenting with adding alcohol (not Alkolol) to irrigation solution? I just did a Google and a Google Groups search and didn't come up with anything aside from the nonspecific "You don't want to do that, trust me."
I've done a little experimenting in the past with other irrigation solution additives, including Alkolol and Betadine and tea tree oil, adding them (not all at once) to a saline solution made with Dr. Grossan's Breathe Ease. Nothing seemed to work better than pure saline/Breathe Ease. I never experimented with adding hydrogen peroxide or the spilled insides of antibiotic tablets or anything else.
I am concerned of course about possible unknown side effects. But I have the beginning of a cold right now, and I want to try to prevent it from turning into sinus infection, which is what happens to me about half the time I get a cold, prolonging a one-week cold into a three-week acute sinus infection. (I'm an ex-chronic sinusitis patient, having had endoscopic sinus surgery, which didn't help, or didn't help much, and finally curing myself with the help of this newsgroup).
So over the past two days I've been experimenting with adding a little alcohol in the form of vodka to the saline solution. I wanted it to be drinking quality alcohol for the purity, to minimize the possibility of side effects. I've tried different quantities. For me, three level teaspoons of 80-proof (40 percent alcohol) vodka to eight ounces of saline solution is the maximum before it becomes too irritating to irrigate.
This is not a lot of alcohol. Maybe it's too little to have any effect. But I feel it in my sinuses. My hope is that it's enough to help the irrigation solution and my body's own defenses fight off the cold virus but not too much to dry out my sinus' mucus membranes or interfere with the functioning of the cilia or increase vasodilation and congestion or do anything else that's destructive.
I've irrigated four times now over the past two days this way. So far, so good, that is, no nasty immediate side effects. But it's too early to say whether it works or seems to work.
Anyone else try this? Is there any reason I shouldn't be irrigating with alcohol like this any further?
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MZB - 27 Feb 2007 02:07 GMT Doesn't alcohol in general have a drying effect??
Also, I would think it would burn/irritate the mucous membranes.
Mel
> Has anybody tried experimenting with adding alcohol (not Alkolol) to > irrigation solution? I just did a Google and a Google Groups search [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom > Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos Murray Grossan - 27 Feb 2007 05:01 GMT On 2/26/07 1:05 PM, in article 3sh6u2h6vnhkb2r8m8hucof5q99k09cmvc@4ax.com,
> I want to try to prevent > it from turning into sinus infection, which is what happens to me > about half the time I get a cold, Why not use something that is GUARANTEED? Hot tea Green or Black, Chicken Soup and bed rest. Drink so your urine turns light.
The cold turns into a sinus infection when the cilia fail to return. At the "end " of the cold, use the pulsatile irrigation . Alcohol is used to impair or immobilize the nasal cilia.
Ghamph - 27 Feb 2007 06:07 GMT > On 2/26/07 1:05 PM, in article 3sh6u2h6vnhkb2r8m8hucof5q99k09cmvc@4ax.com, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "end " of the cold, use the pulsatile irrigation . > Alcohol is used to impair or immobilize the nasal cilia. I agree with Murray , I started pulastile irrigation today and it brought out a chunk of silly putty brown crap. It's much easier than using my usual bulb syringe , and much less messy. The alcohol thing sounds like something that one would not try more than once , OUCH ! . Jamffer
Kevin Renn - 27 Feb 2007 06:34 GMT I've pondered this same sort of thing. I've put hydrogen peroxide in my solution because I've been told it kills the bacteria. I didn't get any immediately recognizable results. In a moment of agony I've wondered if a bit of bleach in the saline solution would help. I know it is the ultimate crap killer but I have a feeling this would be a very bad thing to do. Any thoughts on that?
I also tried grape seed extract because someone in the health food store recommended it but I didn't notice any difference. Is this worthwhile?
I imagine putting some vodka could result in a bit of intoxication by absorption in to your blood stream but I can think of better ways to get it in to your body.
Does the pulsating irrigation require the $100 piece of equipment? Is it worth the investment?
Kevin
hicken Soup and bed rest. Drink so your urine turns light.
>> The cold turns into a sinus infection when the cilia fail to return. >> At [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > sounds like something that one would not try more than once , OUCH ! . > Jamffer judy.n - 27 Feb 2007 12:11 GMT Kevin, you can buy a personal water pik with either a grossan head, or an ethicare head, or one of the various sinus heads on the market--it will be a little cheaper. Just be sure to clean the device well, or water loving bacteria--pseudomonas--can live in the tubing. Use vinegar or dilute bleach. I personally use a small amount of white vinegar in my irrigation solution, as I had difficulty with pseudomonas infection: I use less than a teaspoon/quart of boiled hypertonic solution--1 tsp kosher salt/ cup of water. It works for me. Nasal mucosa is very sensitive, be careful what you add. There was an article about trying to reduce the carriage of MRSA in hospitals--they used a specially forumulated chlorhexidene gel, rather than bactroban, which can induce resistance quickly--and it worked. Chlorhexidene is in peridex--a dental mouthwash--and I once tried it in my irrigation--and it was too painful. Probably it's alcohol based. I've known people who use grape seed extract, and tolerate it well-- it's used in the comercial product Xlear, which is a xylitol nasal spray--as their preservative. Good luck. Judy
> I've pondered this same sort of thing. I've put hydrogen peroxide in my > solution because I've been told it kills the bacteria. I didn't get any [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > sounds like something that one would not try more than once , OUCH ! . > > Jamffer vredsdfr - 28 Feb 2007 01:45 GMT > I've pondered this same sort of thing. I've put hydrogen peroxide in my > solution because I've been told it kills the bacteria. I didn't get any [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Kevin A lot of people here have tried it and to my knowledge it hasn't cured any of them myself included. If you are truly chronic and by that I mean you've had sinusitis for years and probably had one or two surgeries, I'll bet it won't work. If you only have acute sinusitis it will get better without it. There is more going on with chronic sinusitis than dormant cilia. If it cured people, your doctor would know about it, he/she would tell you about it, you'd use it, you'd get better.
Murray Grossan - 28 Feb 2007 07:16 GMT On 2/27/07 5:45 PM, in article i95Fh.4720$PL.64@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net, "vredsdfr" <ufjfjrfj@ldiodfio.com> wrote:
> $100 piece of equipment? Is it >> worth the investment? Of course not, its not worth spending money for your health
> A lot of people here have tried it and to my knowledge it hasn't > cured any of them myself included. If you are truly chronic and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > your doctor would know about it, he/she would tell you about it, > you'd use it, you'd get better. Unless your doctors were at Mayo, Johns Hopkins, Denver Jewish, UC San Diego, etc or had read the 32 + articles that recommend pulsatile irrigation or had read
Harvard Medical School Guide to Healing Your Sinuses by Metson, R. March 2005 Recommends use of Hydro Pulse for sinus therapy. Sinus Relief Now by Josphson J. December 20006. The many advantages of Hydro Pulse Sinus Irrigation include removal of bacteria, biofilm and Major Basic Protein.
Medical Management of Rhinitis, Fadal R. English: Otolaryngology Vol 2:Ch 13 The principal benefits from pulsatile saline irrigation include: 1. Augments mucociliary flow 2 Liquefies tenacious mucus 3. Soothes irritated tissues 4. Removes crusts and micro foreign bodies 5. Augments tissue repair 6. Reduces forceful nose blowing 7. Improves olfaction. Rhinitis, Allergy: Principles and Practice, 3rd edition. Middleton E. CV Mosby Company Ch 17, 1988 All forms of allergic rhinitis are benefited by pulsatile saline irrigation Therapeutic Agents In The Medical Management Of Sinusitis, Mabry, R.L. In: Inflammatory diseases of the sinuses. Otolaryngologic Clinics Of North America, Volume 26, Number 4, pp 561, 1993. The Grossan Sinus Irrigator is effective for post nasal drip and sinusitis. Sinusitis: Acute, Chronic and Manageable, Rachelevsky G S, Slavin R G et all. Patient Care. Feb 28, 1997 Vol 131:4. "A particularly helpful strategy is saline washing using a pulsatile Sinus irrigator. It is so effective in clearing the blocked passages that , if it is done regularly, some patients with persistent or chronic sinusitis need no drug treatment at all! Sinusitis and Bronchial Asthma, Slavin RG: J Allergy and Clinical Immunol 66:250-257, 1980 Three mechanisms re sinusitis causing asthma. Clearing sinusitis is important in asthma.
Medical companies spend millions to popularize their products. I don't.
truehawk - 28 Feb 2007 08:30 GMT Doc does not have "insta cure", just better than the alternative. It is tedious, but once the biofilm sets in EVERYTHING has to be done for a minimum of 4 weeks.
And Only after you have opened up a passage by holding the antibotic or MSM or ranitidine (Zantac) in the back of your throat and then sniffing the gobs of goo out the back way, can one do any good irrigating. But Direct application of antibotics in the irrigation solution is the most effective way to get the antibotic where it needs to go. More antibotic on the bacteria and less toxic effects on the rest of the bod less worshiping of the porcelain god for us.
........................................... By the way, I have used both red wine and gin in my irrigation solution. Dilute enough, it works pretty well to break down the film, but not as well as a gram of EDTA and a gram of Methyelsyphonalmethane, MSM and 500 Mg of Vitiman C.
All are available at health food stores.
As for bleach, believe me, gunpowder works better than any dilution of bleach, I am serious. Whiskey and gunpowder were the drugs that were used on the battlefeild throughout the 18th century, and appeared in a lot of my Grandmother's notes. Also invasive bacteria rely on peptides that are modulated by NO2 in order to do what they do, and the extra nitrates bolox them up.
UC reports on sodium nitrate, but potassium nitrate works just as well.
http://healthnews.uc.edu/news/?/887
If you use gunpowder, get a PH kit and add tums to get a PH of about 6.5, cause the sulpher can make it too acid to begin with. It is left to your ingenuity how you handle the carbon.
truehawk - 28 Feb 2007 13:41 GMT Ur correction
Nitrite, not nitrate.
Susan - 28 Feb 2007 14:13 GMT > Unless your doctors were at Mayo, Johns Hopkins, Denver Jewish, UC San > Diego, etc or had read the 32 + articles that recommend pulsatile irrigation [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Hydro Pulse Sinus Irrigation include removal of bacteria, biofilm and Major > Basic Protein. Murray, will you please provide the comparison studies that find pulsatile irrigation superior in side by side comparisons of outcomes with other methods?
If these don't exist, then you should stop making unsubstantiated claims for the system you sell.
> > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Medical companies spend millions to popularize their products. I don't. No, you spend a lot of time on usenet, advertising in support groups for free.
Unless and until there are comparison studies, there is no validity to any claim of superiority of pulsatile irrigation.
Susan
vredsdfr - 01 Mar 2007 01:58 GMT <snip>
>> Medical companies spend millions to popularize their products. I don't. > > No, you spend a lot of time on usenet, advertising in support groups for > free. This is a bit harsh. The good doctor is here trying to help with a disease that IMO has no easy cure. He never posts blatant advertisements and I appreciate his input. He is arguably the most knowledgeable person reading this group.
> Unless and until there are comparison studies, there is no validity to > any claim of superiority of pulsatile irrigation. > > Susan That I agree with but we don't want to run him off.
Murray Grossan - 01 Mar 2007 06:23 GMT Speaking of Lyme's disease:
Health Lyme Inc. David Whelan 03.12.07
Ticks aren't the only parasites living off patients in borreliosis-prone areas.
Three years ago Heather Jenkins, a 30-year-old mom in Huntersville, N.C., was constantly fatigued and prone to colds. Her internist referred her to Dr. Joseph Jemsek, a self-described "Lyme Literate" doctor. During the initial consultation he asked if she had been bitten by a tick or gotten a rash. No, she replied, but she had gone camping once in Tennessee. He suggested she may have picked up Lyme disease there and sent her blood to a California lab that specializes in tests for tick diseases. A week later the test results came back: She had been infected by Borrelia burgdorferi, the spirochete that causes Lyme disease.
Jemsek installed a tube in Jenkins' arm and every two weeks for a year and a half sold Jenkins a $3,000 course of Rocephin, a powerful antibiotic, to infuse on her own at home. When she developed infections around the catheter in her arm the nurse would switch it. When her arms wore out she got a port implanted in her chest. As she waited for Jemsek to treat her latest infection, she collapsed on the floor, vomiting. Drug-resistant bacteria had overtaken her entire body. Jenkins landed in a hospital intensive care unit for four weeks, barely surviving. A doctor at Carolina Medical Center, where she recovered, told her that their labs could find no evidence in her blood that she'd ever had Lyme. "I was outraged," she says, and is now suing Jemsek. The near-death odyssey cost her insurance company $400,000. The action is pending, and Jemsek has made no comment.
Lyme disease, with 20,000 cases reported annually, ranks low on the list of the most prevalent infectious diseases. But it ranks first in rancor generated in the medical community. The disease is caused by bacteria related to syphilis that enter the body through a tick bite. The typical Lyme infection responds to simple antibiotics, although symptoms like arthritis and fatigue may linger in a subset of patients. Researchers at academic medical centers who study the disease say that so-called chronic Lyme, or post-Lyme, is very rare, hard to detect and not treatable with any further doses of antibiotics. The mainstream doctors warn about an epidemic of bunk diagnoses and dangerous treatments. Insurers often refuse to cover the cost of treating chronic Lyme.
Arrayed against the establishment is a fraternity of Lyme specialists, many of whom have built large practices treating ostensible Lyme patients with expensive courses of antibiotics.
Last year the North Carolina state medical board brought Jemsek in for a disciplinary hearing. Ten patients testified to nightmarish experiences. A widower said his wife had died from a morphine overdose related to Jemsek's Lyme treatments. Jemsek disputed all the charges vigorously. He also had 200 supporters show up, many of whom believe he cured them of a terrible disease. The Lyme Disease Association, a group that supports Jemsek, says that 30 chronic Lyme doctors have been similarly targeted by medical boards. Jemsek ultimately received a "suspension with stay" that allows him to keep practicing.
The light penalty may reflect the power of Lyme support groups, which blast politicians with mail and phone calls to ensure their access to expensive care. Standing with them now is Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal, who has received awards from Lyme groups and late last year announced that he was investigating the Infectious Diseases Society of America, an 8,000-member organization of doctors trained to understand diseases like AIDS, malaria and tuberculosis. Their crime? Issuing Lyme treatment guidelines to doctors that warned against using long-term infused or oral antibiotics.
Blumenthal, who hasn't yet issued any lawsuits in the case, says that the IDSA's guidelines may be in violation of antitrust laws. "Lyme disease is an extraordinarily insidious and widespread problem in Connecticut. We want to make sure that patients and physicians have unfettered choices," he declares. Insurance companies, he goes on, may be colluding with the IDSA to deny care. It's an odd charge, since a 1996 policy statement from the Federal Trade Commission and the Department of Justice says that treatment guidelines issued by medical societies do not limit competition. "You want medicine to advance by debate, not hampered by lawsuits," says Robert Buchanan, a medical-antitrust attorney in Boston.
Despite intimidation from elected officials like Blumenthal, the establishment has scored some hits against Lyme specialists. In 1993 Vithaldis Shah, a New Jersey doctor, had his license yanked for five years for sickening Lyme patients with long-term antibiotic treatments and receiving a payment from the infusion company. In 1996 a doctor in Michigan was suspended after conspiring with a home infusion company and misdiagnosing Lyme patients. In 2000 a study described the death of an anonymous woman from complications arising from treating unsubstantiated Lyme with antibiotics.
In Connecticut Dr. Charles Jones, a pediatrician, is under investigation by the state medical board for prescribing, over the phone, antibiotics for chronic Lyme to two children in Nevada, a desert state with few ticks. Jones, who pulled up to a June hearing in a stretch limo to the cheers of fans, has testified that he did not finalize a Lyme diagnosis until he saw the children in person. Since the hearings began, more upset patients have joined the action against Jones. Blumenthal, however, has criticized the medical board for its investigation.
Mainstream doctors say their guidelines are based on scientific evidence. An early study identified 25 patients with gallstones or bile blockage resulting from antibiotic treatment of unsubstantiated chronic Lyme. A more recent study of infused antibiotics published in the New England Journal of Medicine was cut short after Lyme sufferers with persistent symptoms did not respond to a course of antibiotics any better than they did to a placebo. One patient getting antibiotics had a pulmonary embolism; another had gastrointestinal bleeding.
Another paper in the Annals of Internal Medicine calls chronic Lyme a "functional somatic syndrome," similar to other nebulous ailments like Gulf War Syndrome, chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia. Another study in the same journal found that 60% of Lyme disease patients lacked any evidence of previous or active Lyme infections. Some of these patients suffered from depression, arthritis or other diseases. "There are lot of people who have fatigue or musculoskeletal pain. We want to help them but not with long-term antibiotics," says Dr. Gary Wormser, an infectious disease expert at New York Medical College who helped write the guidelines that prompted Blumenthal's attack. After the latest idsa guidelines came out in November, Wormser and his Valhalla, N.Y. lab were the target of a protest attended by hundreds of chronic Lyme patients and supporters; one sign said "Wormser Lies Patients Die."
Many of the chronic Lyme patients are upset that their insurance companies won't cover unlimited treatments. WellPoint will pay for only four weeks of IV antibiotics, citing published peer-reviewed studies. But science is no match for the Internet, where Lyme patients swarm chat boards to bemoan the persecution of their doctors and egg on politicians. Some celebrities have joined in the fray, such as novelist Amy Tan and Daryl Hall of rock duo Hall and Oates, both of whom say they suffer from chronic Lyme.
Tan's doctor is Raphael Stricker, president of the International Lyme & Associated Diseases Society, which represents chronic Lyme doctors and patients. Stricker's San Francisco clinic also advertises its ability to treat obesity, infertility, erectile dysfunction and AIDS. In 1990 Stricker was forced out of UC, San Francisco after the school claimed he falsified data in what had been a seminal AIDS study. Before he discovered Lyme he spent two years as associate medical director at a penis enlargement clinic.
Stricker and many of his chronic Lyme allies send their blood tests to a California lab called Igenex, which was once investigated by Medicare and the state of California for pumping out too many positive tests. Nick S. Harris, chief executive of Igenex, says he passed both investigations easily, but in 2001 the federal Office of the Inspector General put Igenex on a list of noncompliant labs. It paid fines totaling $48,000. Harris says his firm has had no recent brushes with regulators. Harris says that his tests are more sensitive than ones given by lab giants Quest Diagnostics and LabCorp, yielding positive results 25% of the time. The big national labs typically return positive results 8% of the time. He acknowledges that his results are more open to interpretation, which could facilitate more positive diagnoses. "Patients, because of the Internet, have become my best salesmen," Harris says.
Jemsek, who in 2005 collected $6 million from Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Carolina, is still practicing, having declared his earlier practice bankrupt. He opened a new cash-only practice, spending $8 million on a building with a waterfall and grand piano. On the Internet patients exchange tips about how to keep seeing him. In his statement to the medical board after the stayed suspension of his license, Jemsek, who declines to be interviewed, said: "I've got 400 letters of support here, many single-spaced and several pages long."
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Susan - 01 Mar 2007 13:55 GMT First of all, Murray, it's Lyme, not Lyme's.
Second of all, there's scandal on both sides, both academic and clinical. The illness is both over and underdiagnosed, as my friend Carl Brenner wrote in a letter published in the journal Science, despite what this one sided article would have you believe.
The doctor who cured my child and my own inf. diseases doc accept our negotiated insurance rate and typically rx oral meds.
As a medical person daily pursuing profits on usenet making unsubstantiated claims for the products you sell, you shouldn't be throwing stones at others.
Susan
> Speaking of Lyme's disease: > [quoted text clipped - 157 lines] > > Subscribe to Forbes and Save. Click Here. Susan - 01 Mar 2007 15:01 GMT I'd think any doctor would be embarrassed to reveal he relies on financial magazines for scientific information:
SOURCE: Science Magazine ISSUE: Vol 257, September 25, 1992, p1845 [LETTERS THE EDITOR] HEADLINE: Lyme Disease: Asking the Right Questions
(Ed note: This letter appeared as a follow-up to an article reporting on the controversy at the Fifth Int'l Conference on LD. At that conference, the organizers tried to remove certain abstracts that allegedly lacked "scientific merit." Pressure from patient groups had the abstracts re-instated. The offending abstracts primarily dealt with issues of chronic infection.)
I would like to elaborate on some of the issues discussed in Marcia Baringa's article about the controversy at the Fifth International Conference on Lyme Borreliosis (News & Comment, June 5, p1384). The academic Lyme disease researchers would have us believe that there is a methodological conflict between their own studies and their clinician opponents' "anecdotal" findings. Nothing could be further from the truth. Although criticisms of the offending abstracts submitted before the conference were not entirely without merit, the presumption that the existing body of academic Lyme disease literature represents some sort of scientific ideal is ludicrous.
The central flaw in the current Lyme disease orthodoxy is the persistent myth of "post-Lyme syndrome." This condition was suggested by researchers to account for the troublesome fact that many patients do not fully recover after supposedly curative antibiotic therapy, but continue to suffer from chronic headaches, cognitive deficits, debilitating fatigue, and parenthesis. These persistent symptoms are explained away by the fibromyalgia syndrome [1], which provides a convenient sense of closure to researchers but leaves patients in the throes of devastating illness.
There is ample evidence to retire this model in favor of one involving chronic infection. Some researchers have successfully cultured Bb from the skin or cerebrospinal fluid of patients after antibiotic regimens generally accepted as curative by academic researchers [2], while other clinicians have recovered the bacteria from patients who have undergone even long-term high-dosage antibiotic therapy [3]. In addition, researchers have demonstrated that Bb can penetrate and persist within human endothelial cells [4] and fibroblasts [5]. Yet most academic researchers continue to deny the prevalence of chronic infection in Lyme disease.
There are also flaws with the academicians' diagnostic protocols. Lyme disease presents physicians with a diagnostic dilemma because its symptoms are so diverse and the commonly available serological tests used in diagnosis are known to be unreliable. Thus, while it may seem reasonable for researchers to insist that clinicians confine their studies of long-term therapy to patients who are demonstrably seropositive, it is scientifically -- and morally -- indefensible to advocate a rigid adherence to this overly restrictive diagnostic procedure in a clinical setting to determine treatment. Arbitrarily withholding antibiotic therapy from all seronegative patients guarantees that an unacceptably high percentage of them will go on to develop incurable late-stage Lyme disease. Such a policy also can lead to the under reporting of the real incidence of Lyme disease. The artificially low figures are in turn used by researchers to reinforce their claim that Lyme disease is actually quite rare. Thus, the cycle of denial is complete. The facts, of course, strongly suggest that Lyme disease is seriously under diagnosed. New testing techniques presented at the international conference [6] indicate that Lyme disease will be found to be significantly more common than previously recognized.
The rejecting of the offending abstracts at the conference had much more to do with their conceptual challenge to current paradigms in Lyme disease research than with their alleged scientific deficiencies. Good science is as much about asking the right questions as it is the sensible pursuit of answers, and many Lyme disease patients do not feel that the mainstream Lyme disease researchers are asking the right questions.
The existing theories need to be reevaluated in light if the emerging evidence on chronic infection in late Lyme disease.
Carl Brenner Lamont-Doherty Geological Observatory of Columbia University Palisades, NY 10964
References: [1] L.H. Sigal, Am. J. Med. 88, 577 (1990) [2] V. Preac-Mursic et al., Infection 17, 355 (1989) [3] K. Liegner, C. Rosenkilde, G Campbell, T. Quan, D. Dennis, "Culture confirmed treatment failure of cefotaxime and minocycline in a case of Lyme meningoencephalomyelitis in the United States" (Abstr. #63, Fifth Int'l Conference on Lyme Borreliosis, Arlington, VA, 1992); E. Masters, P. Lynxwiler, J Rawlings, "Spirochetetemia two weeks post-cessation of six months of continuous p.o. amoxicillin therapy" (Abst. #65 Fifth Int'l Conference on Lyme Borreliosis, Arlington, VA, 1992) [4] Y. Ma, A. Sturrock, J. Weis, Infect. Immun. 59, 671 (1991). [5] Th. Haupl et al., "Persistence of Bb in chronic Lyme disease: altered immune regulation or evasion into immunologically privileges sites?" (Abstr #149, Fifth Int'l Conference of Lyme Borreliosis, Arlington, VA, 1992) [6] K. Liegner, C. Garon, D. Dorward, "Lyme borreliosis studies with the Rocky Mountain Laboratory (RML) antigen capture assay in urine" (Abstr #104, Fifth Int'l Conference on Lyme Borreliosis, Arlington, VA, 1992)
*****=*****
Susan
Reid Goldsborough - 01 Mar 2007 17:50 GMT >As a medical person daily pursuing profits on usenet making >unsubstantiated claims for the products you sell, you shouldn't be >throwing stones at others. You'll forgive me for being presumptuous by saying that you seem like a knowledgeable and intelligent person and that your posts here are well worth reading, from what I've read over the past few days, returning here after a prolonged absence.
So are Dr. Grossan's. I also feel that you're being way too hard on him. He's an icon. He's helped a great deal of people with his presence here and with his championing of pulsatile irrigation. Sure, in a perfect world he wouldn't profit from this. But capitalism is the American way, and he's not the first and won't be the last healer to make money from a medical device that benefits people.
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Susan - 01 Mar 2007 18:27 GMT > You'll forgive me for being presumptuous by saying that you seem like > a knowledgeable and intelligent person and that your posts here are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > American way, and he's not the first and won't be the last healer to > make money from a medical device that benefits people. Years ago on another newsgroup, Murray used to have a sig line leading to his web site where his device was promoted and sold. He got a lot of flak from others who thought it was inappropriate advertising to do so, whereas I thought it was proper disclosure of his commercial interest. Since that wasn't a sinusitis ng, he wasn't making many promotional statements about his device and he provided free advice (some of it really daft, some of it useful, same as here) too.
When the heat got ridiculous, I not only argued in favor of his right and reponsibility to disclose, I also added his sig line to my own as a sign of support for his right to participate as he had been. I made the point that earning a living isn't illegal, not even for doctors, so that argument isn't one you have to make with me. I don't object to honest practices and representations by anyone.
He's not an icon, he's a man who's become increasingly aggressive here in promoting his products as superior to others with absolute nothing but opinions to back the claim. His book falsely claims to offer the "cure" for sinusitis; why are we all here, then?
I use his device, which I find shoddy, but helpful. Since my sister has had very unfortunate repeatd breakdowns and nasty warranty experience with his company, I will not ever buy another of his devices, nor would I recommend others do so, since Murray declined to comment on the warranty service problem after I raised it. What happened was that my fastidious sister returned her second defective unit (in one year) for repair and was mailed back a filthy, dinged up unit in return and told she was a liar, that one was hers. She ultimately prevailed and was sent a replacement unit and told to take her business elsewhere. She is also, BTW, unfailingly kind and polite, not at all like me. ;-)
Susan
Reid Goldsborough - 01 Mar 2007 19:17 GMT >He's not an icon, he's a man who's become increasingly aggressive here >in promoting his products as superior to others with absolute nothing >but opinions to back the claim. I haven't seen this aggressive promotion, but as I said I just returned here after being away.
>His book falsely claims to offer the >"cure" for sinusitis; why are we all here, then? It cured me. But I agree that this statement is too hypey. "Treatment" is a better term than "cure" in this context.
>I use his device, which I find shoddy, but helpful. Since my sister has >had very unfortunate repeatd breakdowns and nasty warranty experience [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >sent a replacement unit and told to take her business elsewhere. She is >also, BTW, unfailingly kind and polite, not at all like me. ;-) Seems like a legitimate gripe. But why use just one example of way less than stellar customer relations to completely turn on somebody? Everybody makes mistakes, has bad days, makes bad decisions, all the rest. Seems to me he has a cadre of satisfied customers, which might outweigh this particular negative situation.
I know Dr. Grossan only from this newsgroup. He can be a bit of a character, but I mean that in as much of a positive way as a negative way. He is self-promotional, but he's also helpful. He's also a doctor (and for me anyway deserves respect by being referred to as Dr.), and he has come up with an innovative way to further the little known art and science of nasal/sinus lavage/irrigation. Which reminds me, I need to irrigate again. Later.
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Susan - 01 Mar 2007 21:32 GMT > I haven't seen this aggressive promotion, but as I said I just > returned here after being away. I'm hoping it will cease.
>>His book falsely claims to offer the >>"cure" for sinusitis; why are we all here, then? > > It cured me. But I agree that this statement is too hypey. "Treatment" > is a better term than "cure" in this context. You were cured by his book? If so, you're outnumbered by those who continue to suffer chronic sinusitis.
> Seems like a legitimate gripe. But why use just one example of way > less than stellar customer relations to completely turn on somebody? That's not it at all responsive to what I actually wrote here. It's his misrepresentations about his products as superior despite no evidence comparing them to others. I'm a stickler for integrity and honesty.
> Everybody makes mistakes, has bad days, makes bad decisions, all the > rest. Seems to me he has a cadre of satisfied customers, which might > outweigh this particular negative situation. Murray didn't make mistakes, he made decisions about how to market his device for free here.
> I know Dr. Grossan only from this newsgroup. He can be a bit of a > character, but I mean that in as much of a positive way as a negative [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and science of nasal/sinus lavage/irrigation. Which reminds me, I need > to irrigate again. Later. People deserve the respect of being addressed by the name they post under or introduce themselves by. If a person uses my first name instead of Ms. ****, then I feel free to use his/hers. Respect is a door that is supposed to swing both ways. And it's also reserved for those who behave honestly and scrupulously.
Susan
MZB - 01 Mar 2007 23:50 GMT Reid:
If I may interject on this controversy:
I've been perusing this BB for many years. For me, irrigation hasn't helped. However, my family physician, who is very sharp and who I greatly respect, indicates that it certainly sounds plausable.
Reading the posts over all these years, I see we are all grasping at straws. We have clearly not found a uniform solution (if we did, I guess this bb would gratefully die out).
But I also have to admit that I give a little less credence to Murray's posts because it is OBVIOUS TO THE MOST CASUAL OBSERVER that he is hawking his wares here.
This is not to say his device is worthless; in fact, that appears not to be the case.
But I have to agree with Susan's comments regarding the constant shilling for the device.
Mel
>>As a medical person daily pursuing profits on usenet making >>unsubstantiated claims for the products you sell, you shouldn't be [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom > Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos Reid Goldsborough - 02 Mar 2007 02:34 GMT >I've been perusing this BB for many years. For me, irrigation hasn't helped. >However, my family physician, who is very sharp and who I greatly respect, >indicates that it certainly sounds plausable. This points to a mistake I see that I've made over the past couple of days here, that being assuming that because a treatment worked for me it will work for everybody.
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Murray Grossan - 02 Mar 2007 02:49 GMT On 3/1/07 6:34 PM, in article gp2fu21gcpoqnj81ko4evlqvkgb0uoh3fh@4ax.com,
>> I've been perusing this BB for many years. For me, irrigation hasn't helped. >> However, my family physician, who is very sharp and who I greatly respect, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > --Unfortunately it takes more than a single treatment method. Correction of anatomy, restoring cilia , proper sleep, relaxation, nutrients, allergy desensitization, dust / mold control are just some of the factors that must be included to get the cure. And it varies from one patient to another. Just fixing the sleep can be as important as oooooommmm and tea.
> Email: reidgold@removethisnetaxs.com (delete "remove this") > > Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide > Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom > Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos kafir - 02 Mar 2007 02:56 GMT I believe the point of discussion here is not whether irrigation is a recognized or effective treatment, but rather whether "pulsatile" irrigation has any benefit beyond other methods, like syringes or neti pots. Over the years, various claims about pulsatile irrigation have been made here, e.g. that it utilizes the bernoulli effect to clear mucus, that it reverses ciliostasis by mimicking ciliary beat frequency, and so on. That these claims are made without scientific support is a problem, anecdotal evidence notwithstanding.
>>I've been perusing this BB for many years. For me, irrigation hasn't >>helped. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom > Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos Reid Goldsborough - 02 Mar 2007 22:07 GMT >I believe the point of discussion here is not whether irrigation is a >recognized or effective treatment, but rather whether "pulsatile" irrigation [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >claims are made without scientific support is a problem, anecdotal evidence >notwithstanding. Agreed. But having worked up from an ear syringe to a neti pot to a Grossan irrigator, I can say that my (anecdotal) experience is that pulsatile irrigation is superior. Others have reported similar findings. I was a skeptical as anyone going in, and I still have doubts as I think a lot of people do about things like beat frequency. For me, Grossan irrigation is more controllable than the others, and it seems to do a better job of digging out mucus and all the rest. I see these two things as the main benefit to the pulsing stream of saline. I haven't tested out other irrigation systems. But the Grossan system works for me. I also agree that it's not a panacea, that other treatments need to be used in conjunction with it, that even if it does work it can take a long time to work (it did with me), and that it may not work for everyone. I also understand completely the frustration experienced by those with seemingly intractable chronic sinusitis.
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Susan - 02 Mar 2007 23:14 GMT > Agreed. But having worked up from an ear syringe to a neti pot to a > Grossan irrigator, I can say that my (anecdotal) experience is that [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > frustration experienced by those with seemingly intractable chronic > sinusitis. So what?
Murray posted a ream of citations that he claimed demonstrated superiority of the thing he sells, though they do not.
Your personal anecdote notwithstanding.
Susan
truehawk - 03 Mar 2007 02:46 GMT Susan:
Weather one uses a Grossen irrigatior or not, I think one of Dr Grossen's most important contributions has been to lend credibility to applying antibotics and disbursents driectly into the sinuses, rather than risking the dilution and toxcicity involved giving them systemicly.
Most ENTs do not ascribe CS to chronic infection. They are heavily into the blockage and allergy model. With the surgeon's cut of a sinus surgery running about 10K (this figure I know for sure), My conjecture is the knife man is making about 4K a wack after office expenses and malpractice insurance, Lets say they adverage 10 surgeries 40 weeks a year. That's 1,6 mil a year.
Now that is pretty strong incentive. If you really want to see creative statistics, read the details of assessment criteria in sinus surgery.
Doc offers nonprescrption alternatives.
Also what you see as shilling can also be seen as steady support. I can see that it gets tireing to say the same thing over and over again to people who can use google as well as one can, but he still does it, and I am glad he does.
Now I can totally sympathise with your attitude. I know doctors can be exsperating zombies, who feel entitled to the 10K from the surgery, weather they can control the infection afterward or not, or who will not treat even when the false negatives have been shown to be over 50%, , and if you have a chronic disease condition you want treated some way other than the practice guidelines, they will often make you feel like a miscredent, a malcontent, and criminal bioterrorist if your work in another feild of science calls their assumptions into question. You have a right to know what you know, and you have a right to save your own life and health. You have a right to a doctor that has a working brain and tries to help.
judy.n - 03 Mar 2007 14:34 GMT One of Dr. Grossan's citations was the Harvard Sinus Book by Ralph Metson MD.
I need to be very careful here, but Dr. Metson operated on me in 2000 and the results were a very poor--I developed a post op infection that lasted over a year. He declined to ever see me back in follow up-- despite calls and faxes of cultures. Luckily I have a local ENT who was willing to clean up a mess created by someone else--and did two subsequent surgeries to deal with the osteomyelitis that followed the original surgery. Last year I mentioned Dr. Metson to a prominent surgeon at Lahey, who scoffed that Dr. Metson still believed that extensive surgery was the correct approach. This is one patient's experience, and I don't know anyone else who has been his surgical patient. No surgeon will have good outcomes all the time. He is in private practice, with an office across from Mass Eye and Ear. He gets over 18K per surgery--and that was 7 years ago. (My local ENT gets around 300$ for a FESS--I used to work in insurance, and I know that's true--why the discrepancy?) Once he collected the surgical fee, he appeared to believe that his responsibility was over. Seven years ago, Dr. Metson had only heard of a bulb syringe for irrigation--and I believe the one I used was a source of pseudomonas. So, I do agree with Susan that when a physician sells a product it creates a conflict of interest--even if the physician created the product in full belief that it will help people. There is the Stark law against kick-backs to prevent physicians from profiting from self- referrals. I believe Dr. Grossan has created a product that has helped many people, and he does treat patients medically--and appears to provide continuity of care, which is not often the case for a surgeon. I'm sure he profits from his product ( and I know a few local orthopedic surgeons who are incredibly wealthy due to the invention of orthopedic surgical products--artificial joints--is that wrong ethically?), but again, I think his product has helped people. Personally, I had used a water pik, and went back to a neti pot. I believe it's personal preference. My ENT did not encourage pulsatile irrigation, but rather feels the neti pot is high flow, low pressure and really easy to keep clean--and I agree with him. In my experience many of the other sinus product companies will provide samples for your patients--NeilMed sends me a big box all the time--and we hand them out, Simply Saline sends samples as well. I haven't noticed that hydromed has that policy. I like to have my patients try differerent products and see what works best for them. Judy
> Susan: > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > right to save your own life and health. You have a right to a doctor > that has a working brain and tries to help. Murray Grossan - 03 Mar 2007 16:29 GMT On 3/3/07 6:34 AM, in article 1172932481.346993.160000@30g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, "judy.n"
> I > haven't noticed that hydromed has that policy. Judy you may recall we posted free Hydro Pulse to the 9/11 rescuers. Pretty hard to hand out free Hydro Pulse like salt packets. However or contributions to asthmatics, CF, ENS are well known. And doctor's requests to have one in the office for demo are met.
vredsdfr - 02 Mar 2007 00:04 GMT <snip>
> presence here and with his championing of pulsatile irrigation. Sure, > in a perfect world he wouldn't profit from this. But capitalism is the I guess that depends on your definition of perfect. If I had a cure for chronic sinusitis I sure as heck would want to profit from it.
Susan - 02 Mar 2007 00:12 GMT > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I guess that depends on your definition of perfect. If I had a cure > for chronic sinusitis I sure as heck would want to profit from it. I agree that there's nothing illegal or immoral about profiting from one's professional contributions.
Susan
MZB - 02 Mar 2007 00:14 GMT I agree. But the constant "advertisements" can be a tad annoying. (But I think you agree with that??)
Mel
> x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Susan Susan - 02 Mar 2007 01:00 GMT > I agree. But the constant "advertisements" can be a tad annoying. (But I > think you agree with that??) Completely; that and the unsubstantiated claims of superiority. Not just annoying, but scientifically misleading and a mark of avarice.
Susan
DMF - 04 Mar 2007 03:52 GMT Reid Goldsborough wrote...
> Sure, in a perfect world he wouldn't profit from this. But > capitalism is the American way, and he's not the first and > won't be the last healer to make money from a medical > device that benefits people. Au Contraire. In a morally perfect word, people would know what Capitalism is and why it is moral and why their lives depend on it. (N.B. What we have today is *not* Capitalism).
Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal. http://capmag.com/store/store_detail.asp?ID=3
Ayn Rand Insitute. http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer
I hope Dr. G. is making buckets of money on the Hydropulse and makes even more when he discovers a cure rather than a palliative
Regards, David
Susan - 01 Mar 2007 13:56 GMT > This is a bit harsh. The good doctor is here trying to help with > a disease that IMO has no easy cure. He never posts blatant > advertisements and I appreciate his input. He is arguably the most > knowledgeable person reading this group. He routintely posts blatant advertisements, often without indicating that he's in the business of selling the product.
>> Unless and until there are comparison studies, there is no validity to >> any claim of superiority of pulsatile irrigation. >> >> Susan > > That I agree with but we don't want to run him off. Believe me, it's not possible to run Murray off, nor is that my intent.
Susan
Reid Goldsborough - 28 Feb 2007 16:33 GMT >A lot of people here have tried it and to my knowledge it hasn't >cured any of them myself included. Pulsatile irrigation cured me of chronic sinusitis when endoscopic sinus surgery, antibiotics, decongestants, steroidal nasal spray, antihistamines, allergy testing, and environmental control of irritants/allergens did not.
This is not to say that these other treatments didn't help. And pulsatile irrigation didn't work overnight. It took months before my sinuses were healthy again. Even now, some years later, they're not exactly like they were pre-chronic sinusitis in that I get one or two acute sinus infections a year lasting two to three weeks each whereas before the onset of chronic sinusitis I didn't get any. But I'm about 1000 percent better.
I also agree that double blind studies would help move the medical science forward. But I'm one of many anecdotal reports of the efficacy of irrigation. The key I believe is that it helps promote the healthy functioning of your sinuses, not that it's a panacea in itself.
I'm back now to irrigating without the addition of three teaspoons of vodka to the irrigation solution, as a result of this thread. The risk/reward doesn't seem to be worth it. So far so good in keeping this cold from morphing to a sinus infection.
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Reid Goldsborough - 28 Feb 2007 16:57 GMT Actually, you couldn't do a double-blind study with irrigation, but comparison studies could shed more light.
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Susan - 28 Feb 2007 17:04 GMT > Actually, you couldn't do a double-blind study with irrigation, but > comparison studies could shed more light. Yes, that definitely makes more sense.
There are no objective valid grounds for claiming any kind of superiority for one method of irrigation over another.
Susan
Murray Grossan - 01 Mar 2007 06:39 GMT On 2/28/07 8:57 AM, in article lvcbu2hrac4sp6qpn6c9sjl9a78l37bqaq@4ax.com,
> Actually, you couldn't do a double-blind study with irrigation, but > comparison studies could shed more light. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom > Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos Hi Reid, when are we going to see your book?
Actually all the studies on pulsatile irrigation reported in the 33 article bibliography were done on patients who failed other Rx. Similarly most of the patients I see have already had 2-3 courses of antibiotic. In those, its the failure of the cilia to return that is the key to the reinfection and restoring the cilia is often the "cure."
Susan - 01 Mar 2007 13:57 GMT > Actually all the studies on pulsatile irrigation reported in the 33 article > bibliography were done on patients who failed other Rx. Similarly most of > the patients I see have already had 2-3 courses of antibiotic. In those, its > the failure of the cilia to return that is the key to the reinfection and > restoring the cilia is often the "cure." Nice side step. Have the patient failed other irrigation methods?
Susan
Reid Goldsborough - 01 Mar 2007 17:29 GMT >Hi Reid, when are we going to see your book? What book? I've written a book on the future of the Internet that was used in college courses and a novel that I never managed to find an agent for, and I have plans to write other books on other topics, but all the writing I've done about sinusitis is to help others, not to make money.
>Actually all the studies on pulsatile irrigation reported in the 33 article >bibliography were done on patients who failed other Rx. Similarly most of >the patients I see have already had 2-3 courses of antibiotic. In those, its >the failure of the cilia to return that is the key to the reinfection and >restoring the cilia is often the "cure." I agree, as you know, with your beliefs about the efficacy of irrigation. But I also agree that you'd make a stronger case for it if you did more rigorous science. Start out with a group of 20 patients, say, right after their first endoscopic sinus surgery. Serious chronic sinusitis. Break them into four groups. Try different regimens on each group -- your choice. But make sure that not all groups are doing irrigation.
To be most credible, actually, you should find someone disinterested who would do this, an ENT who wouldn't stand to profit financially from the outcome of this study.
The other thing you should do is start a nonprofit organization to promote sinus health. You could then sell your irrigation and other products at cost without having to get your hands dirty with the money-making nonsense. Do you really need three other Rolls Royces? If you went this route, you'd no doubt wind up on the cover of Time magazine. Man of the Year. Sinus Superhero.
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Reid Goldsborough - 27 Feb 2007 14:33 GMT >The cold turns into a sinus infection when the cilia fail to return. At the >"end " of the cold, use the pulsatile irrigation . So you *shouldn't* irrigate during the beginning and middle of a cold? I haven't heard this before. I had thought irrigation during a cold helped sweep out viruses and mucus and helped keep the ostia open and the cilia healthy.
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Susan - 27 Feb 2007 15:46 GMT > So you *shouldn't* irrigate during the beginning and middle of a cold? > I haven't heard this before. I had thought irrigation during a cold > helped sweep out viruses and mucus and helped keep the ostia open and > the cilia healthy. I've irrigated during colds to prevent them from developing into galloping infections, but not until taking an oral decongestant and/or inhaling some decongestant nasal spray.
You don't want to irrigate when you're very congested and your nose is blocked and end up forcing all that crud into your eustachian tubes.
Susan
judy.n - 27 Feb 2007 22:19 GMT You are frequently recommending warm liquids: as someone who is avoiding extra caffeine, I drink herbal tea. Why do you recommend green/black tea? Even the decaf versions have some caffeine. I drink the roobois tea which is full of anti oxidants.
Also, why wouldn't you irrigate during a cold?
Judy
> On 2/26/07 1:05 PM, in article 3sh6u2h6vnhkb2r8m8hucof5q99k09c...@4ax.com, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "end " of the cold, use the pulsatile irrigation . > Alcohol is used to impair or immobilize the nasal cilia. Susan - 27 Feb 2007 22:40 GMT > You are frequently recommending warm liquids: as someone who is > avoiding extra caffeine, I drink herbal tea. Why do you recommend > green/black tea? Even the decaf versions have some caffeine. I drink > the roobois tea which is full of anti oxidants. Judy, lots of teas, like black and green, frex, are loaded with antioxidants.
It's possible to get them all in decaf form, too, if desired.
Susan
Murray Grossan - 28 Feb 2007 07:02 GMT On 2/27/07 2:19 PM, in article 1172614799.647163.230340@z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, "judy.n"
> You are frequently recommending warm liquids: as someone who is > avoiding extra caffeine, I drink herbal tea. Why do you recommend > green/black tea? Even the decaf versions have some caffeine. I drink > the roobois tea which is full of anti oxidants Green and black tea have been proven to stimulate nasal/chest cilia. Cilia movement is the number one defence against infection/allergy etc. I simply don't know if other "teas" do the same. As far as the nasal / sinus/ allergy condition is concerned, there is no reason to avoid caffeine. Lots of liquids dilutes the bacterial toxin and provides canals for the good enzymes and white cells to reach the bacteria.
It seems silly to buy expensive mucus thinning products when the best ones are fluids and hot tea/lemon.
The Hydro Pulse is designed NOT to work if the nose is completely blocked as it is in an acute cold. It is OK for prevention and can be used whenever everyone at the office has a cold It washes out the ICAM 01 which is the portal of entry of the cold virus.
Ghamph - 03 Mar 2007 20:06 GMT > On 2/27/07 2:19 PM, in article > 1172614799.647163.230340@z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, "judy.n" [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > don't know if other "teas" do the same. As far as the nasal / sinus/ allergy > condition is concerned, there is no reason to avoid caffeine. *If one drinks "only coffee" with caffeine all day they "will" become dehydrated. I thought any "physician" would know that.
> Lots of liquids dilutes the bacterial toxin and provides canals for the good > enzymes and white cells to reach the bacteria. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > everyone at the office has a cold It washes out the ICAM 01 which is the > portal of entry of the cold virus. Pulsatile irrigation is only one of many tools , that should be considered , in a comprehensive approach to sinus maintenance and treatment. My personal most effective tool , is aerobic exercise (an hour or two shoveling snow) , to get the crap moving. * *Check this out--- * According to a study in Sweden depicts that humming "may reduce the risk of sinusitis". It was found that humming allows people to exhale significantly more air from their nasal passages than during less-whimsical exhalations, an advantage that could lower the risk of sinus infections. I know this sounds crazy so below is a brief script form the study...
Here is a brief Communication script from the study:
Humming greatly increases nasal nitric oxide. The paranasal sinuses are major producers of nitric oxide (NO). We hypothesized that oscillating airflow produced by humming would enhance sinus ventilation thereby increasing nasal (NO) levels. Ten healthy subjects took part in the study. Nasal (NO) was measured with a chemiluminescence technique during humming and quiet single-breath exhalations at a fixed flow rate. (NO) increased 15-fold during humming compared with quiet exhalation. In a two-compartment model of the nose and sinus, oscillating airflow caused a dramatic increase in gas exchange between the cavities. Obstruction of the sinus ostium is a central event in the pathogenesis of sinusitis. Nasal (NO) measurements during humming may be a useful noninvasive test of sinus (NO) production and ostial patency. In addition, any therapeutic effects of the improved sinus ventilation caused by humming should be investigated."
It's better to light a candle that curse the darkness, Jamffer
truehawk - 04 Mar 2007 00:56 GMT > It's better to light a candle that curse the darkness, > Jamffer I had forgotten about humming, but come to think of it, I have seen several studies that both humming and singing promote sinus health.
Ghamph - 04 Mar 2007 02:21 GMT > > It's better to light a candle that curse the darkness, > > Jamffer > > I had forgotten about humming, but come to think of it, I have seen > several studies that both humming and singing promote sinus health. I read several other places about nitrous oxide being a pathogen killer. That must be what all those thousands of little bubbles are in mucus.
Activity outside , like walking and working , seems to get my goo moving more than most other ways. I'm a snot watcher. Jamffer
Murray Grossan - 04 Mar 2007 03:22 GMT On 3/3/07 6:21 PM, in article 12ukbaf9pbl7mb5@corp.supernews.com, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
>>> It's better to light a candle that curse the darkness, >>> Jamffer [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I'm a snot watcher. > Jamffer Best sinus exercise is jumping jacks.
Kevin Renn - 04 Mar 2007 08:38 GMT >> Activity outside , like walking and working , seems to get my goo >> moving more than most other ways. >> I'm a snot watcher. >> Jamffer >> > Best sinus exercise is jumping jacks. The best exercise for sinus clarity that I've found is Hockey. I go inside the rink and play for an hour and everything is ready to come out. After a nose blow I am unbelievably clear. I don't understand the mechanism but nothing seems to work this well. I live in the southwest so maybe it has something to do with the temperature change combined with the physical activity.
Oleoresin Capsaicin (OC) also is VERY effective in cleaning out my sinuses but I don't recommend putting it in your irrigation solution. Too bad there isn't a extract that would get the good benefits without all the bad side effects. I do eat a lot of spicy food and that seems to help.
I'm sorry if I got a little off topic but I'm just glad to have found this newsgroup with people who seem to be in the same situation as me.
-Kevin
truehawk - 04 Mar 2007 09:37 GMT Doc: Yeah I was thinking about the Omm. Also I remember a story long ago about Gregorian Monks falling ill if they were not allowed to chant.
Jam I guess we are the snot watcher's society.
Kevin. Welcome. You are right. Spicy foods can be a tremenous help.
>From what I can learn, almost all spices are actually antibacterials or antifungals. The spice cabniet used to be the medicine cabniet. Also anything that is an 'aquired taste", like bitters, or linburger cheese probably started out as a medicine.
Murray Grossan - 04 Mar 2007 18:48 GMT On 3/4/07 1:37 AM, in article 1173001061.558603.227730@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com, "truehawk"
> Doc: > Yeah I was thinking about the Omm. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Also anything that is an 'aquired taste", like bitters, or linburger > cheese probably started out as a medicine. If wasabi doesn't open up your nose ... You are not of this planet/
Reid Goldsborough - 04 Mar 2007 01:14 GMT >According to a study in Sweden depicts that humming "may reduce the risk of >sinusitis". It was found that humming allows people to exhale significantly Interesting. I think though that the benefit come from vibrations moving the mucus/biofilm. Stagnant mucus is a big no-no. Mucus is part of the body's defense, but when it's stagnant instead of sweeping away viruses, bacteria, fungi, allergens, and irritants, it acts as a breeding ground for bacteria.
I haven't done much humming (except just now <g>), but what I have done that has been successful in similar way is nasal/sinus massage. Using my fingertips and knuckles, I gently massage the outside of my nose and the area around it covering my sinuses. Every time, during or afterward, I swallow a bit of mucus, though it's not enough to allow me to cough it up and spit it out. Massage also increases blood flow, and along with it white blood cells and other infection fighters. Massage seem to work on both software tissue and bone (cheekbones).
I do nasal/sinus massage on average once or twice a day for maybe a minute each time, in the car at traffic lights, for instance, and each time I irrigate while lying down, which helps clear my sinuses of irritation fluid and any remaining mucus along with stimulating blood flow.
I'm going to try humming every day too. Thanks for the report.
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Murray Grossan - 04 Mar 2007 03:18 GMT On 3/3/07 12:06 PM, in article 12ujlavdjrdn39b@corp.supernews.com, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
> Here is a brief Communication script from the study: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ostial patency. In addition, any therapeutic effects of the improved sinus > ventilation caused by humming should be investigated." Yoga teachers have been teaching "ooommmmm" for 3,000 years. This ihas been one of my frequent recommmendations here. The reason low pitched "ooooommmm" works is the frequency of pulsation of the air, matches the correct cilia frequency.
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 27 Feb 2007 19:13 GMT reidgoldsborough@yahoo.com (Reid Goldsborough) wrote:
>Has anybody tried experimenting with adding > alcohol (not Alkolol) to irrigation solution? I > just did a Google and a Google Groups > search and didn't come up with anything > aside from the nonspecific "You don't want to > do that, trust me." If I haven't used my irrigator for a few days, I will usually flush it out with a strong rubbing alcohol (Ethyl) solution. Normally, I thoroughly rinse this out with water, (prior to using the pik); however, the one time, I forgot about the pipe going to the irrigator tip. I'll never make that mistake again. If you think hydrogen peroxide is bad, just try it with alcohol. It's like a thousand dentist needles, shoved 10 feet in, out, and through your sinus membranes.
Personally, I don't even think adding alcohol like vodka to your irrigation fluid will do any good either. ...Other than creating a major irritation. I remember watching a show on TV, how in the old west they used to use whisky for disinfection purposes. ...Apparently, drinkable alcoholic is too weak, even in its pure form, to kill any bugs.
As I've said before... I've used the hydrogen peroxide a few times with beneficial results... But I think besides being an irritant and causing pain, its properties...IE: the oxygen, help to break up the infected material. ..Jon
Steven L. - 27 Feb 2007 23:51 GMT > Has anybody tried experimenting with adding alcohol (not Alkolol) to > irrigation solution? I once put alcohol in my nostrils accidentally. The result was a total disaster. Alcohol is extremely drying. I found that out the hard way. My body reacted to the drying effect by making lots of yellow mucus, which could increase one's chances of getting a sinus infection.
NEVER put alcohol on mucous membranes in your nasopharynx.
 Signature Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
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