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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / January 2007

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Distressing symptoms - bacteria, fungus, tooth?

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Martin J. - 16 Jan 2007 15:46 GMT
Hi!

I've got a post-nasal drip and frequent feeling of fatigue. 1 year ago
I had surgery  - septum, concha-bullosa and ethmoid sinus, but since
then I still can't get rid of the problem.

My recent CT scan showed nothing wrong. Examination of bacteria present
in my nose revealed e.coli, klebsiella
oxytoca & pseudomonas - I took Cipro for 12 days and used Gentamycine
with inhalator and it helped a lot, but there are some distressing
symptoms that I'm still worried about. It usually begins with some very
intensive fatigue feeling and more mucus and ends with production of
some kind of characteristic mucus - looks like a jelly with some gray
stuff in it. After it happens I feel OK again like completely healthy
person. And the cycle returns again (usually 1 up to 3 times a day).

My questions are:

1. Are described symptoms a sign of getting better (sinuses clean of
some toxic stuff - like killed bacteria or fungi) or does it mean, that
my bacterial infection is getting worse (or at least not getting
better)?
2. I don't and didn't have any pain typical for sinus or teeth
problems, but is it possible that my condition is related to teeth? Is
teeth X-ray enough to diagnose this?
3. May it be fungus related? I know it's quite rare and my immune
system is OK, but my blood tests showed extreme high IgG antibodies
levels for Fusarium and medium for Candida.

Regards,
Martin J.
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 17 Jan 2007 05:10 GMT
It's possible that you have an allergic fungal sinusitis, but that
creates the conditons for a bacterial sinusitis.  I've had some of the
same bacteria cultured.  You could have an infection in the bone.  If
it doesn't clear up in a few days I would ask for a bone scan.  

Kathyw
Martin J. - 17 Jan 2007 10:44 GMT
kathywb2001@yahoo.com napisal(a):
> It's possible that you have an allergic fungal sinusitis, but that
> creates the conditons for a bacterial sinusitis.  I've had some of the
> same bacteria cultured.  You could have an infection in the bone.  If
> it doesn't clear up in a few days I would ask for a bone scan.
>
> Kathyw

Thanks for the advice.

But is AFS really possible given into consideration that:
1. my CT scan, in fact 2 scans, 1st before surgery showed
concha-bullosa & septum problem but no sinus problems, 2nd done after
surgery in other medical center) are OK
2. my mucin is not green nor black and doesn't resemble peanut butter
at all
3. 3 ENTs (that incl. 2 professors) said it's not fungus related
4. skin reaction to Aspergillus, Fusarium, Penicillinum and other fungi
and mold is negative (but I AM allergic to Alternaria and some other
substances)
5. I achieved a complete recovery once 1/2 Y ago (with no anti-fungal
treatment and diet), but then got throat infection and sinusitis after
that

?

Regards,
Martin J.
Steven L. - 17 Jan 2007 17:41 GMT
> kathywb2001@yahoo.com napisal(a):
>> It's possible that you have an allergic fungal sinusitis, but that
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> treatment and diet), but then got throat infection and sinusitis after
> that

First of all, I disagree with Kathy that AFS is suggested here.  AFS has
turned into a "default diagnosis" that is seized on whenever a patient
can't get rid of his sinusitis--if the sinusitis isn't cleared with
antibiotics and surgery, then "it must be" AFS.  It shouldn't be.  Mayo
Clinic, which first invented this AFS theory, has recently backed off on
it, they're not claiming it's the root cause of 95% of sinusitis
anymore.  They have developed tests and examinations for that condition,
and without positive results from such tests there's no reason to assume
you have AFS.

They are now working on a brand-new theory (mucus biofilms), so Mayo
scientists will continue to have fun and be paid.

It's more believable that the infection has long since penetrated your
bone--that's where I'm at right now myself.

As to whether it has a dental origin, any competent dentist can X-ray
your upper teeth and see if you have any abscesses that are penetrating
into the maxillary sinuses.  (You can have a tooth abscess without pain
symptoms--for a while.  Then one fine day, it will suddenly explode with
pain.  Been there, done that too.)

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Martin J. - 17 Jan 2007 22:16 GMT
> They are now working on a brand-new theory (mucus biofilms), so Mayo
> scientists will continue to have fun and be paid.

Today I've read some info on this biofilm theory - well, don't know
what to think about it - my mucus resembles the one described in the
article (wiki) but as you said - this is a very young theory...

> It's more believable that the infection has long since penetrated your
> bone--that's where I'm at right now myself.

This bone thing scares me - in fact this is the first time someone
suggested that this could be the problem in my case. What kind of scan
is required to diagnose such a condition (X-rays, CT, MRI, other?). Are
there any characteristic symptoms?

> As to whether it has a dental origin, any competent dentist can X-ray
> your upper teeth and see if you have any abscesses that are penetrating
> into the maxillary sinuses.  (You can have a tooth abscess without pain
> symptoms--for a while.  Then one fine day, it will suddenly explode with
> pain.  Been there, done that too.)

Since my dentist is on vacation X-rays has to wait a little bit. I can
hardly wait... :)

Rgds,
Martin J.
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 18 Jan 2007 04:06 GMT
> But is AFS really possible given into consideration that:
> 1. my CT scan, in fact 2 scans, 1st before surgery showed
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> treatment and diet), but then got throat infection and sinusitis after
> that

The most current (and controversial thoery) is that it is an
eosinophilic fungal sinusitis.  This is different form the "older"
allergic fungal sinusitis concept.  The body produces MBP in response
to the presence of the mold, but is an immunological response.    I
agree with Steven that this is over diaganosed, but it DOES exist and
with your elevated IgG level to Fusarium and allergy to alternaria,
very possible.  There are some very good articles on the connection of
Alternaria allergy and sinusitis.  I don't have the resources
available, since I am out of town, but you can do a search.  I don't
think you  have to have the allergic mucin for this diagnosis.  Very
little showed in my CT scans, but I have produced dark brown mucus.   I
also had high IgG levels to over 10 molds including Fusarium.  Do you
work or live in a moldy environment?  Fusarium requires a lot of
moisture and can be found in mold contaminated buildings.  It also
grows in moldy wheat and corn.  Do you have an agriculture related job?
It also can  produce a potent toxin called T-2 toxin.  Were you tested
for exposure to it?

Interestingly,  when I had allergy testing done a few years back, I did
not show allergic to anything (but had earlier and did the allergy
shots twice), only the high IgG levels.  I just had testing done again
last week and now show allergic to most molds, so am probably going to
have to go the desensitization route again.

As far as a possible bone infection, that is extremely rare.  But if
you continue to have problems, ask for a BONE SCAN.

Kathyw
Martin J. - 18 Jan 2007 11:55 GMT
> very possible.  There are some very good articles on the connection of
> Alternaria allergy and sinusitis.  I don't have the resources
> available, since I am out of town, but you can do a search.  I don't

Thanks for the tip - from what I've found seems that the allergic
reaction to Alternaria is one of the strongest - from what I've heard
from my allergist it is also the allergen very likely to cause asthma.
Since I'm getting a proper allergy treatment there is probably nothing
more I can do about it.

> think you  have to have the allergic mucin for this diagnosis.  Very
> little showed in my CT scans, but I have produced dark brown mucus.   I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>  It also can  produce a potent toxin called T-2 toxin.  Were you tested
> for exposure to it?

No tests for T-2 ... so far ;) No, I work in the so called A-class
building (you can't open windows and get some fresh air so I'd rather
call it a D-class, humidity is below 40%). Maybe Fusarium grows
somewhere in the building's ventilation system? My apartment doesn't
have signs of mold, humidity is at 50%. Had some problems with mold in
the bathroom but get rid of them.

Regards,
Martin J.
Steven L. - 17 Jan 2007 17:34 GMT
> Hi!
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> in my nose revealed e.coli, klebsiella
> oxytoca & pseudomonas -

Do you mean they literally cultured bacteria from your nostrils, not
from your sinus ducts?  If they did a nasal swab, that's worthless--the
bacteria in your nose can be totally different from those in your
sinuses.  In fact, healthy people have plenty of "normal flora" in their
noses too.

A culture from your sinus ducts that reveals Pseudomonas, however, is
important.

> I took Cipro for 12 days and used Gentamycine
> with inhalator and it helped a lot, but there are some distressing
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> stuff in it. After it happens I feel OK again like completely healthy
> person. And the cycle returns again (usually 1 up to 3 times a day).

12 days may simply not have been enough to completely clear the
infection--my ENT routinely gives me three weeks' worth (20 days).
Sometimes patients need to be on antibiotics for months.

> 1. Are described symptoms a sign of getting better (sinuses clean of
> some toxic stuff - like killed bacteria or fungi) or does it mean, that
> my bacterial infection is getting worse (or at least not getting
> better)?

It's definitely not getting better.  But chronic sinusitis can last for
a lifetime without getting worse either.

> 2. I don't and didn't have any pain typical for sinus or teeth
> problems, but is it possible that my condition is related to teeth? Is
> teeth X-ray enough to diagnose this?
> 3. May it be fungus related? I know it's quite rare and my immune
> system is OK, but my blood tests showed extreme high IgG antibodies
> levels for Fusarium and medium for Candida.

Your sinusitis may just be aggravated by allergies.  Have you been
tested for mold allergy with skin tests by a competent allergist?  If
you have mold allergy, then it must be treated effectively in order for
your sinusitis to clear.

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Martin J. - 18 Jan 2007 11:28 GMT
Steven L. napisal(a):

> Do you mean they literally cultured bacteria from your nostrils, not
> from your sinus ducts?  If they did a nasal swab, that's worthless--the
> bacteria in your nose can be totally different from those in your
> sinuses.  In fact, healthy people have plenty of "normal flora" in their
> noses too.

I believe they cultured from sinus ducts - the material was taken by a
good ENT using standard tool to widen nostril opening and then pushing
the probe very deeply into my nose (no a nice feeling BTW). A year ago
I had e.coli only cultured directly from the material taken from the
sinus during the surgery but remained on antibiotics only for 7 days -
my ENT strongly believed that my body is strong enough to take care of
this infection after my nose was fixed. Well, he was NOT right about
it.

> A culture from your sinus ducts that reveals Pseudomonas, however, is
> important.

What exactly do you mean? Is Pseudomonas a characteristic symptom of
anything important I should know?

> > I took Cipro for 12 days and used Gentamycine
> > with inhalator and it helped a lot, but there are some distressing
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> infection--my ENT routinely gives me three weeks' worth (20 days).
> Sometimes patients need to be on antibiotics for months.

Both ENTs I visited recommended only 10 days, probably given my
condition (no acute infection) and proper CT scan.

> > 1. Are described symptoms a sign of getting better (sinuses clean of
> > some toxic stuff - like killed bacteria or fungi) or does it mean, that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> It's definitely not getting better.  But chronic sinusitis can last for
> a lifetime without getting worse either.

Well, I'm trying not to be too optimistic based on experience, but for
a couple of days my condition is getting better very quickly. Less and
less of mucus (but still some gray jelly), no more signs of fatigue.
I'm crossing my fingers. Maybe the course of antibiotics PLUS using the
information I've found in the group FAQ and some posts about gentle
nose blowing are the right things my sinuses needed to start
recovering. Have to admit that I used to blow my nose the 'hardcore
way' before finding that info.

> Your sinusitis may just be aggravated by allergies.  Have you been
> tested for mold allergy with skin tests by a competent allergist?  If
> you have mold allergy, then it must be treated effectively in order for
> your sinusitis to clear.

Yes, unfortunately I have a very strong allergy reaction to Alternaria
and most of pollens. I'm using nasal steroids and antihistamine drugs
to control that. I'm also planning immunotherapy.

Regards,
Martin J.

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