Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / January 2007
ENT referral at Lahey
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Terry Raymond - 09 Jan 2007 01:45 GMT Hi
I have had an infection since the beginning of November. I have tried 4 antibiotics and now I am on a 5th. As a result, my ENT has referred me to Dr. Bohigian at the Lahey clinic. Does anyone have any experience with him?
Presently, my ostia are swollen shut but there is no pus. I have a slight amount of pressure which varies thoughout the day. Decongestants don't open them up. I am not experiencing any pain or distress and I would like to get rid of the infection before it starts dripping pus into my lungs, I experienced that last year and want to avoid it.
My CT scans from last year don't show any polyps, but one of them show swelling of the mucosa, this was after the infection was cleared. My ENT is concerned that possibly the root of my problem is related to fungus. He was not too inclined to jump in and do surgery. I guess that is a good thing.
It is a little strange because with my sinuses blocked I have less PND than before they were blocked.
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tdonline - 09 Jan 2007 02:32 GMT My recent experience was similar, I had less PND during my infection. My layman's explanation is that due to blockage my mucus wasn't flowing, so no pnd but an infection. My first round of antibiotics didn't work. The ENT prescribed predinose to open up the sinuses along with a second round antibiotics and voila, no more infection.
> Hi > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > <http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com> > =========================================================== Steven L. - 10 Jan 2007 19:08 GMT > Presently, my ostia are swollen shut but there is no pus. > I have a slight amount of pressure which varies thoughout [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > infection was cleared. My ENT is concerned that possibly > the root of my problem is related to fungus. Why? The Mayo Clinic (the ones who pioneered the theory of Allergic Fungal Sinusitis) now says that there is usually visual evidence of visible inflammation and eosinophils, when AFS is the culprit. If you go there and ask them directly, they no longer claim that AFS is the cause of nearly all chronic sinusitis, as they used to. So your ENT had better have evidence of fungal involvement (or hints from your patient history), not just making fungus the default diagnosis because antibiotics failed.
And even if the problem is fungal, the infection won't clear unless the ostia are opened and drained. Irrigation with topical antifungals can be effective, but only if the irrigation solution can get into the sinus cavities.
Oral steroids (Medrol, etc.) might reduce the swelling enough for drainage to occur spontaneously, or for fungal irrigation to work. Other than surgery, that's your best bet for opening your sinuses.
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kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 11 Jan 2007 04:28 GMT > Why? The Mayo Clinic (the ones who pioneered the theory of Allergic > Fungal Sinusitis) now says that there is usually visual evidence of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > drainage to occur spontaneously, or for fungal irrigation to work. > Other than surgery, that's your best bet for opening your sinuses. Steven, I agree with you on most of your points. However, I'm not sure that the current "eosinophilic" fungal sinusitis diagnosis requires visual evidence of fungal involvement. It is my understanding that just the presence of the mold spores themselves can set up the inflammatory response that causes the body to produce MBP. They can colonize without causing an infection. I think that the MBP must be present along with postive fungal cultures for the diagnosis to be made. (I was on prednisone when I saw Dr. Sheris so he didn't do the test for MBP, but gave me the diagnosis anyway based on culture results and history) It is also my understanding that Mayo is getting ready to do clinical studies of oral sporanox as a treatment. At any rate, I agree that until the ostia are open, the infection won't clear up regardless of how many antibiotics or antifungals one is on. And even if it should be an underlying "eosinophilic" fungal sinusitis, bacteria infections are usually secondary so BOTH must be dealt with at the same time.
Kathyw
Murray Grossan - 11 Jan 2007 16:50 GMT On 1/10/07 8:28 PM, in article 1168489715.651903.122710@k58g2000hse.googlegroups.com,
>> Why? The Mayo Clinic (the ones who pioneered the theory of Allergic >> Fungal Sinusitis) now says that there is usually visual evidence of [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Kathyw Again, the same term fungal sinusitis is used for many different things
A. Healthy no problem. His fungal culture is positive. B. He took months of antibiotics and he has a positive culture C. he has polyps that block and he grows fungus D. He is sick with sinus inflammation. He has exactly the same culture as A but he has loads of MBP because his own eosinophiles produce it to kill the fungus E. He is immunocomprimised and has a major fungal infection without the MBP
I am sure I left something out, but cultures are terribly misleading since the next 10 people walking down the block can show the same culture as the sick patient.
Correct, the ostia of the sinuses must be opened in order for the sinus to heal. Blocked sinus can give a vacuum headache which is more painful than an inflammation.
Steven L. - 15 Jan 2007 03:08 GMT >> Why? The Mayo Clinic (the ones who pioneered the theory of Allergic >> Fungal Sinusitis) now says that there is usually visual evidence of [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > "eosinophilic" fungal sinusitis diagnosis requires visual evidence of > fungal involvement. That's what an ENT at Mayo Clinic told me when I went there for a second opinion. They said that in their experience, the test for MBP has tended to be negative when there was no visual evidence of inflammation.
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kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 11 Jan 2007 04:52 GMT > Hi > > It is a little strange because with my sinuses blocked I > have less PND than before they were blocked. This makes perfect sense. As others have stated, if the ostia are blocked, the pus has nowhere to go, but it could spread to the bone or even to your brain if you don't get it treated. The usual treatment nowdays is limited surgery just to open up the ostia and allow the mucus to drain better. Then something I think is lacking in many ENT encounters is that the actual bacteral and/or fungal infection(s) should be addressed with the appropriate antimicrobial. Whereever you go, I would ask them to do cultures and test for MBP. I think that the presence of MBP and postive fungal cultures is required for the diagnosis of allergic "eosinophilic" fungal sinusits. But you do need to be aware that there are many different kinds of fungal sinusitis, and you don't state whether your doctor thinks it is a fungal infection or an "allergic" or immune type reaction (And there are even different criteria used by each doctor for the same diagnosis) . An actual infection would be unlikely unless you are immunocompromised, but is possible.
Kathyw
Kathyw
Terry Raymond - 11 Jan 2007 16:33 GMT kathywb2001@yahoo.com wrote in news:1168491139.624999.77010 @p59g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:
>> Hi >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Kathyw Kathy
He stated that it may be an allergic reponse and not necessarily a fungal infection. Additionally, I don't have any pus so a culture would be kind of difficult. Maybe if I quit the antibiotics I would get some pus.
I had something like this last year and it cleared up after several weeks of antibiotics, but also at that time I did have pus.
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kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 11 Jan 2007 18:13 GMT > Kathy > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > after several weeks of antibiotics, but also at that time > I did have pus. It sounds like you may have to have limited surgery to allow better drainage if the antibiotics don't "Kick in." I also agree that a prednisone dose pak might be useful to add to see if it would clear it up first before you resort to that.. You don't mention where the pain is. Is it generalized or just in one location? If the ostia are still blocked, I agree that this could be a vacuum sinusitis. If it is in the bone the pain is also excruciating and nothing completely relieves it. So I would still keep the idea of a bone scan in your mind if it doesn't clear up. The longer it stays in the bone, the harder it is to cure, if at all possible. I am living with this everyday because it wasn't diagnosed early enough and am having to go out of state again to get treatment.
Kathyw
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 11 Jan 2007 18:20 GMT I'm sorry, I just read back over your original post and saw that you don't have any pain. That is good. But mine started out as pressure before it became pain, so you do need to get to the "root" of it. I would keep the appointment that you have scheduled and see what the ENT says.
Kathyw
Steven L. - 15 Jan 2007 03:12 GMT >> Kathy >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > prednisone dose pak might be useful to add to see if it would clear it > up first before you resort to that.. Not those Medrol Dose Paks, please!
The dose in the standard Medrol 5-day Dose Pak is both too weak and too short to be of much good. A tapered course of methylprednisolone should be *customized* by your physician for your needs. And as soon as possible, that course should switch you over to alternate-day dosing to minimize systemic effects. (Susan, if you're reading this, I've been there, done that, just like you.)
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Susan - 15 Jan 2007 14:33 GMT (Susan, if you're reading this, I've been
> there, done that, just like you.) Not quite the same, probably. It's months since I quit low dose topical steroids, and my night time bp is dropping to 90/50 and I'm extremely weak at the moment, and getting multiple opportunistic infections.
Susan
judy.n - 12 Jan 2007 02:45 GMT Terry, I live in RI also, and my daughter lives outside Boston. We have a local ENT, Paul Christu. who I really like and respect. Because my daughter was near Boston, when she developed unremitting sinusitis, I took her to Peter Catalano at Lahey Clinic. He was recommended by a pediatric allergist I know, who had gone to him for sporanox treatment several years ago, when it was not widely being used. We initially saw an older ENT, a Dr. Hybels, who was not very helpful. After waiting for 5 months, she saw Dr. Catalano who recommended surgery with the sinus balloon. He was very pleasant, but she really didn't want the surgery--and when I discussed the use of the balloon with Dr. Christu, he had some additional reservations about it. Dr. Catalano recommended the surgery, and his assistant came into the room after he left and gave my daughter a hard time: he was booking out another 5 months, if she didn't sign the consent form right then, her wait would only be longer. The harder the push, the more resistance from my daughter (in her early 20's) We saw Dr. Christu for a second opinion, and he told her he could perform minimal FESS, but with her IgA deficiency: "your CT could look perfect, but you could still get infections". He wouldn't offer her any guarantees about the health benefits of the surgery. In contrast, Dr. Catalano told her she would have no pain, and would be much better. In fact, he had performed the same surgery on a family member. Weighing both opinions, my daughter decided to stick with medical management--irrigation, allergy shots, low dose biaxin. Her fiance, a physician, agrees with her that surgery can't be un-performed, and it's not clear that the risks--in this case--outweigh the benefits. I did not get the feeling in dealing with either ENT, that they would care for her medically or offer continuity. It seemed like a consult practice, one that referred you back to your usual MD. In contrast, Dr. Christu has cared for her for years. The pediatric allergist who used Dr. Catalano thinks the world of him. In his case, he continued to get infections despite FESS, and heard about the sporanox at a national allergy meeting, and found that Dr. Catalano was the only ENT willing to try it in the NE area--at the time (5 years ago.) So, that's our experience with Lahey. I personally saw a highly recommended private ENT who uses Mass Eye and Ear and had a horrible experience--actually I mentioned it to Dr. Catalano, and he told me that the physician who operated on me continues to remove way too much tissue, and is dogmatic in his approach. My husband had a serious parotid gland problem: and was operated on by the former head of head and neck surgery at Mass Eye and Ear: Dr. Richard Fabian, and he was beyond wonderful. He retired to Florida, and my husband sees his younger associated, Dr. Derrick Lin--a very nice person and physician. I found both Dr. Fabian and Dr. Lin to have a lack of ego that is refreshing. (When my husband developed a salivary abscess, I mentioned that a family friend had a similar problem after a face lift, and used a scopalmine patch--and the head of surgery at Mass Eye and Ear told me that was a brilliant suggetion--and it worked. Ten years after removing his parotid, my husband's gland still acts up, and Dr. Lin told him, that he had stumped the previous world expert, and agreed to work with him to figure out a solution.) I did ask them who the current sinus surgeons were at Mass Eye and Ear and they mentioned:Stacey Gray or Eric Holbrook. So, I don't know the ENT you were referred to, but these were my experiences at Lahey and Mass Eye and Ear. (I have an otologist at Mass Eye and Ear who is wonderful: Steven Rauch.) Good luck and I hope your marathon infection clears up. Judy
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