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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / January 2007

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ENT referral at Lahey

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Terry Raymond - 09 Jan 2007 01:45 GMT
Hi

I have had an infection since the beginning of November.
I have tried 4 antibiotics and now I am on a 5th. As a
result, my ENT has referred me to Dr. Bohigian at the
Lahey clinic. Does anyone have any experience with him?

Presently, my ostia are swollen shut but there is no pus.
I have a slight amount of pressure which varies thoughout
the day. Decongestants don't open them up. I am not
experiencing any pain or distress and I would like to get
rid of the infection before it starts dripping pus into
my lungs, I experienced that last year and want to avoid it.

My CT scans from last year don't show any polyps, but one
of them show swelling of the mucosa, this was after the
infection was cleared. My ENT is concerned that possibly
the root of my problem is related to fungus. He was not
too inclined to jump in and do surgery. I guess that is
a good thing.

It is a little strange because with my sinuses blocked I
have less PND than before they were blocked.

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Terry
===========================================================
Terry Raymond
Crafted Smalltalk
80 Lazywood Ln.
Tiverton, RI  02878
(401) 624-4517        traymond at craftedsmalltalk nospam dot com
<http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com>
===========================================================

tdonline - 09 Jan 2007 02:32 GMT
My recent experience was similar, I had less PND during my infection.
My layman's explanation is that due to blockage my mucus wasn't
flowing, so no pnd but an infection.  My first round of antibiotics
didn't work.  The ENT prescribed predinose to open up the sinuses along
with a second round antibiotics and voila, no more infection.

> Hi
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> <http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com>
> ===========================================================
Steven L. - 10 Jan 2007 19:08 GMT
> Presently, my ostia are swollen shut but there is no pus.
> I have a slight amount of pressure which varies thoughout
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> infection was cleared. My ENT is concerned that possibly
> the root of my problem is related to fungus.

Why?  The Mayo Clinic (the ones who pioneered the theory of Allergic
Fungal Sinusitis) now says that there is usually visual evidence of
visible inflammation and eosinophils, when AFS is the culprit.  If you
go there and ask them directly, they no longer claim that AFS is the
cause of nearly all chronic sinusitis, as they used to.  So your ENT had
better have evidence of fungal involvement (or hints from your patient
history), not just making fungus the default diagnosis because
antibiotics failed.

And even if the problem is fungal, the infection won't clear unless the
ostia are opened and drained.  Irrigation with topical antifungals can
be effective, but only if the irrigation solution can get into the sinus
cavities.

Oral steroids (Medrol, etc.) might reduce the swelling enough for
drainage to occur spontaneously, or for fungal irrigation to work.
Other than surgery, that's your best bet for opening your sinuses.

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kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 11 Jan 2007 04:28 GMT
> Why?  The Mayo Clinic (the ones who pioneered the theory of Allergic
> Fungal Sinusitis) now says that there is usually visual evidence of
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> drainage to occur spontaneously, or for fungal irrigation to work.
> Other than surgery, that's your best bet for opening your sinuses.

Steven,
   I agree with you on most of your points.  However, I'm not sure
that the current
"eosinophilic" fungal sinusitis diagnosis requires visual evidence of
fungal involvement.  It is my understanding that just the presence of
the mold spores themselves can set up the inflammatory response that
causes the body to produce MBP.  They can colonize without causing an
infection.   I think that the MBP must be present along with postive
fungal cultures for the diagnosis to be made.  (I was on prednisone
when I saw Dr. Sheris so he didn't do the test for MBP, but gave me the
diagnosis anyway based on culture results and history)   It is also my
understanding that Mayo is getting ready to do clinical studies of oral
sporanox as a treatment.
    At any rate, I agree that until the ostia are open, the infection
won't clear up regardless of how many antibiotics or antifungals one is
on.  And even if it should be an underlying  "eosinophilic" fungal
sinusitis, bacteria infections are usually secondary so BOTH must be
dealt with at the same time.  

Kathyw
Murray Grossan - 11 Jan 2007 16:50 GMT
On 1/10/07 8:28 PM, in article
1168489715.651903.122710@k58g2000hse.googlegroups.com,

>> Why?  The Mayo Clinic (the ones who pioneered the theory of Allergic
>> Fungal Sinusitis) now says that there is usually visual evidence of
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Kathyw

Again, the same term fungal sinusitis  is used for many different things

A. Healthy no problem. His fungal culture is positive.
B. He took months of antibiotics and he has a positive culture
C. he has polyps that block and he grows fungus
D. He is sick with sinus inflammation. He has exactly the same culture as A
but he has loads of MBP because his own eosinophiles produce it to kill the
fungus
E. He is immunocomprimised and has a major fungal infection without the MBP

I am sure I left something out,  but cultures are terribly misleading since
the next 10 people walking down the block can show the same culture as the
sick patient.

Correct, the ostia of the sinuses must be opened in order for the sinus to
heal. Blocked sinus can give a vacuum headache which is more painful than an
inflammation.
Steven L. - 15 Jan 2007 03:08 GMT
>> Why?  The Mayo Clinic (the ones who pioneered the theory of Allergic
>> Fungal Sinusitis) now says that there is usually visual evidence of
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> "eosinophilic" fungal sinusitis diagnosis requires visual evidence of
> fungal involvement.  

That's what an ENT at Mayo Clinic told me when I went there for a second
opinion.  They said that in their experience, the test for MBP has
tended to be negative when there was no visual evidence of inflammation.

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kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 11 Jan 2007 04:52 GMT
> Hi
>
> It is a little strange because with my sinuses blocked I
> have less PND than before they were blocked.

This makes perfect sense.   As others have stated,  if the ostia are
blocked, the pus has nowhere to go, but it could spread to the bone or
even to your brain if you don't get it treated.  The usual treatment
nowdays is limited surgery just to open up the ostia and allow the
mucus to drain better.   Then something I think is lacking in many ENT
encounters is that the actual bacteral and/or fungal infection(s)
should be addressed with the appropriate antimicrobial.  Whereever you
go, I would ask them to do cultures and test for MBP.  I think that the
presence of MBP and postive fungal cultures is required for the
diagnosis of allergic "eosinophilic" fungal sinusits.  But you do need
to be aware that there are many different kinds of fungal sinusitis,
and you don't state whether your doctor thinks it is a fungal infection
or an "allergic" or immune type reaction (And there are even different
criteria used by each doctor for the same diagnosis) .  An actual
infection would be unlikely unless you are immunocompromised, but is
possible.

Kathyw

Kathyw
Terry Raymond - 11 Jan 2007 16:33 GMT
kathywb2001@yahoo.com wrote in news:1168491139.624999.77010
@p59g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:

>> Hi
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Kathyw

Kathy

He stated that it may be an allergic reponse and not
necessarily a fungal infection. Additionally, I don't
have any pus so a culture would be kind of difficult.
Maybe if I quit the antibiotics I would get some pus.

I had something like this last year and it cleared up
after several weeks of antibiotics, but also at that time
I did have pus.

Signature

Terry
===========================================================
Terry Raymond       Smalltalk Professional Debug Package
Crafted Smalltalk
80 Lazywood Ln.
Tiverton, RI  02878
(401) 624-4517        traymond at craftedsmalltalk nospam dot com
<http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com>
===========================================================

kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 11 Jan 2007 18:13 GMT
> Kathy
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> after several weeks of antibiotics, but also at that time
> I did have pus.

It sounds like  you may have to have limited surgery to allow better
drainage if the antibiotics don't "Kick in."  I also agree that a
prednisone dose pak might be useful to add to see if it would clear it
up first before you resort to that..
You don't mention where the pain is.  Is it generalized or just in one
location?   If the ostia are still blocked, I agree that this could be
a vacuum sinusitis.  If it is in the bone the pain is also excruciating
and nothing completely relieves it.  So I would still keep the idea of
a bone scan in your mind if it doesn't clear up.  The longer it stays
in the bone, the harder it is to cure, if at all possible.  I am living
with this everyday because it wasn't diagnosed early enough and am
having to go out of state again to get treatment.

Kathyw
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 11 Jan 2007 18:20 GMT
I'm sorry, I just read back over your original post and saw that you
don't have any pain.  That is good.  But mine started out as pressure
before it became pain, so you do need to get to the "root" of it.  I
would keep the appointment that you have scheduled and see what the ENT
says.  

Kathyw
Steven L. - 15 Jan 2007 03:12 GMT
>> Kathy
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> prednisone dose pak might be useful to add to see if it would clear it
> up first before you resort to that..

Not those Medrol Dose Paks, please!

The dose in the standard Medrol 5-day Dose Pak is both too weak and too
short to be of much good.  A tapered course of methylprednisolone should
be *customized* by your physician for your needs.  And as soon as
possible, that course should switch you over to alternate-day dosing to
minimize systemic effects. (Susan, if you're reading this, I've been
there, done that, just like you.)

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Susan - 15 Jan 2007 14:33 GMT
 (Susan, if you're reading this, I've been
> there, done that, just like you.)

Not quite the same, probably.  It's months since I quit low dose topical
steroids, and my night time bp is dropping to 90/50 and I'm extremely
weak at the moment, and getting multiple opportunistic infections.

Susan
judy.n - 12 Jan 2007 02:45 GMT
Terry,
 I live in RI also, and my daughter lives outside Boston. We have a
local ENT, Paul Christu. who I really like and respect. Because my
daughter was near Boston, when she developed unremitting sinusitis, I
took her to Peter Catalano at Lahey Clinic. He was recommended by a
pediatric allergist I know, who had gone to him for sporanox treatment
several years ago, when it was not widely being used.
 We initially saw an older ENT, a Dr. Hybels, who was not very
helpful. After waiting for 5 months, she saw Dr. Catalano who
recommended surgery with the sinus balloon. He was very pleasant, but
she really didn't want the surgery--and when I discussed the use of the
balloon with Dr. Christu, he had some additional reservations about it.
 Dr. Catalano recommended the surgery, and his assistant came into the
room after he left and gave my daughter a hard time: he was booking out
another 5 months, if she didn't sign the consent form right then, her
wait would only be longer. The harder the push, the more resistance
from my daughter (in her early 20's)
 We saw Dr. Christu for a second opinion, and he told her he could
perform minimal FESS, but with her IgA deficiency: "your CT could look
perfect, but you could still get infections". He wouldn't offer her any
guarantees about the health benefits of the surgery.
  In contrast, Dr. Catalano told her she would have no pain, and would
be much better. In fact, he had performed the same surgery on a family
member.
 Weighing both opinions, my daughter decided to stick with medical
management--irrigation, allergy shots, low dose biaxin. Her fiance, a
physician, agrees with her that surgery can't be un-performed, and it's
not clear that the risks--in this case--outweigh the benefits.
 I did not get the feeling in dealing with either ENT, that they would
care for her medically or offer continuity. It seemed like a consult
practice, one that referred you back to your usual MD. In contrast, Dr.
Christu has cared for her for years.
 The pediatric allergist who used Dr. Catalano thinks the world of
him. In his case, he continued to get infections despite FESS, and
heard about the sporanox at a national allergy meeting, and found that
Dr. Catalano was the only ENT willing to try it in the NE area--at the
time (5 years ago.)
 So, that's our experience with Lahey.
 I personally saw a highly recommended private ENT who uses Mass Eye
and Ear and had a horrible experience--actually I mentioned it to Dr.
Catalano, and he told me that the physician who operated on me
continues to remove way too much tissue, and is dogmatic in his
approach.
 My husband had a serious parotid gland problem: and was operated on
by the former head of head and neck surgery at Mass Eye and Ear: Dr.
Richard Fabian, and he was beyond wonderful. He retired to Florida, and
my husband sees his younger associated, Dr. Derrick Lin--a very nice
person and physician. I found both Dr. Fabian and Dr. Lin to have a
lack of ego that is refreshing. (When my husband developed a salivary
abscess, I mentioned that a family friend had a similar problem after a
face lift, and used a scopalmine patch--and the head of surgery at Mass
Eye and Ear told me that was a brilliant suggetion--and it worked. Ten
years after removing his parotid, my husband's gland still acts up, and
Dr. Lin told him, that he had stumped the previous world expert, and
agreed to work with him to figure out a solution.) I did ask them who
the current sinus surgeons were at Mass Eye and Ear and they
mentioned:Stacey Gray or Eric Holbrook.
 So, I don't know the ENT you were referred to, but these were my
experiences at Lahey and Mass Eye and Ear. (I have an otologist at Mass
Eye and Ear who is wonderful: Steven Rauch.)
 Good luck and I hope your marathon infection clears up.
Judy
> Hi
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> <http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com>
> ===========================================================

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