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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / January 2007Nasal Irrigation Question
Almost ever since my sinusitus problem started some 3 months ago I have been using Nasal Irrigation making certain to follow all of the directions I have read in the numerous articles I have read on the subject. Whilst nasal irrigation gives instant and seemingly beneficial relief........my sinusitus ...despite 3 courses of Antibiotics and trying all of the other usual remedies as recomended by doctors and the many websites I have come across ...persists ..some 3 months on Today I came across this article...as follows: http://www.doctorhoffman.com/ydouche.htm "Nasal irrigation can alter the environment of the nasal cavities and sinuses, making them more conducive to the growth of certain water-loving bacteria such as Pseudomonas. Also, irrigation should not be performed if you are suffering from acute sinusitis (an acute bacterial infection of the sinuses), since it could facilitate spread of the infection to the other sinuses, the eyes or throat. For these reasons, you should NOT irrigate your nose unless instructed to do so by your doctor." ======================================================================== Have I been my own worst enemy ?? I work in the entertainment industry....and even though my nasal passages feel as though they are quite clear I still sound very nasal when I speak....and in fact sound like Kermit the Frog with a cold when I now sing...not good in my business!...combine this with persistent post nasal drip....I am going mad!!.......In my quest to overcome this affliction .....I have found many things to be quite helpfull in relieving the symptoms....but I am now questioning whether what apparently at first appeared to be the most helpfull (ie Nasal Irrigation) is in fact not a good idea when you have (or have had) an acute sinus infection and in fact only prolongs the problem....any comments appreciated Regards Vic >but I am now questioning whether what > apparently at first appeared to be the most > helpfull (ie Nasal Irrigation) is in fact not a > good idea when you have (or have had) an > acute sinus infection and in fact only prolongs > the problem....any comments appreciated Well I know from my own experience that the irrigation process has kept me from having to resort to using antibiotics during a 1/2 dozen (or more) acute flair-ups, in the last 4 or 5 years. I think the article you posted is correct. Unfortunately, so many take a perfectly good system to help alleviate pain and suffering, and then abuse it. ...I can't recall the number of times I've read Dr. Grossan telling the posters here that the stream of water coming out of the irrigator tip should not be like that of a fire hose. ...But yet ( I bet) there are no end of sufferers (even here), who still use it in this fashion. ..And moreover, will force the liquid in (come hell or high water), even if their nasal passages are completely plugged. ....Further, I can't recall the number of times I've told people (on this group) to refrain from blowing their noses, as I know for a fact that some of my worst flair-ups were a direct result of such actions. .But then you read some posts here where people have irrigated (as directed), then they spend the next hour blowing their noses, as forcefully as if their nasal passages extended down to the very tips of their toes. ...Simply to get that liquid out, no matter what. ...Then they wonder why the infection seems to be getting worse, as opposed to clearing up.. ..And then there's the case of individuals who are so concerned over the water used for irrigation, but pay little regard to the cleanliness of their equipment, or the chemicals they put in it. IE: crap filled "sea salt". If one would only use the irrigator as a means to help the body, help itself (IE: very gentle), instead of as a mechanism to flush out the infection (at any cost), then one would not have to worry about spreading the infected material to other parts of the nasal cavity. ..Jon On 12/30/06 10:27 AM, in article 10626-4596AF92-358@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net, "Johnny1000@webtv.net" >> but I am now questioning whether what >> apparently at first appeared to be the most [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > spreading the infected material to other parts of the nasal cavity. > ..Jon Jon said it best, the number one cause of sinus complications is forceful nose blowing. When I grew up, 1/2 the kids had cotton in their ears from draining ears. Lucky for me, my doctor insisted on gentle gentle nose blowing or not at all. Yes, Jon, I have heard the "horror" stories She tried the Hydro Pulse and it didn't work. She didn't put salt in the water! The Hydro Pulse was uncomfortable. She used it at maximum pressure Somebody must be benefiting from pulsatile irrigation - more people are recommending it and getting it for their friends/relatives. The same doctors that advise against pulsatile irrigation recommend using a rubber syringe for irrigation a. The rubber deteriorates and may cause latex sensitivity b. You can't get a Bernoulli effect with this c. It is a worse breeder for contamination. d. When I ask the patient if it was new, they say it was one their mother used. No wonder the latex/rubber sensitivity developed! I have actually removed chunks of old rubber from the nose of some of these users. Look you don't need any device as long as you can control the pressure - very gentle - and rate of sniffing in and out to match the cilia. Just so you wash your hands well. Jon Thanx for your reply ...and I tend to agree with you....this has been a huge learning curve for me...and yes to start with I probably belonged to the "blowhard" mindset....the last week or so I am FAR more gentle ....after 3 gentle rinses each side.....and 3 VERY gentle "blows" to remove congestion accumulated.... particularly overnight....I rinse a 4th and final time but do not blow at all and just dab dry....seems to be working..so fingers crossed! Cheers Vic > >but I am now questioning whether what > > apparently at first appeared to be the most [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > spreading the infected material to other parts of the nasal cavity. > ..Jon On 12/30/06 2:40 PM, in article 4596e9a5_1@news.iprimus.com.au, "Vic" <rovic@home.com.au> wrote: > Jon > Thanx for your reply ...and I tend to agree with you....this has been a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Cheers > Vic If you are rinsing four times daily that may be too much removal of lysozyme and good white cells. On 12/29/06 6:59 PM, in article 4595d50c_1@news.iprimus.com.au, "Vic" <rovic@home.com.au> wrote: > Almost ever since my sinusitus problem started some 3 months ago I have > been using Nasal Irrigation making certain to follow all of the directions I [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Regards > Vic What type of irrigation are you using? Irrigation can be harmful if variable pressures are used - as with squeeze bottles. It can be beneficial when a precise pressure that is CONSTANT is used at a frequency that encourages cilia movement. Solution reamaining in the sinuses is a sign of poor cilia action why pulsatile recovery is so important. When you use pulsatile irrigation the pressure needed to dislodge unwanted products is much less than when you use a steady stream. Although it sounds simple, irrigation involves pressure used, Bernoulli effect, cilia action, product used, temp of solution and other factors. More harm has come from simply blowing the nose too hard than any single action . Next is too high a pressure for irrigation. This is why an exact pressure that isn't variable is important. Depending on the patient, too much irrigation removes good defencse factors such as lysozyme. > On 12/29/06 6:59 PM, in article 4595d50c_1@news.iprimus.com.au, "Vic" > <rovic@home.com.au> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > sinuses, the eyes or throat. For these reasons, you should NOT irrigate your > > nose unless instructed to do so by your doctor." ======================================================================== > > Have I been my own worst enemy ?? I work in the entertainment > > industry....and even though my nasal passages feel as though they are quite [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Depending on the patient, too much irrigation removes good defencse factors > such as lysozyme. Murray Thank you for your advice I have read about your system ....but havent seen it here in Australia??.. but I could be wrong on that?This morning .after a week of being VERY gentle in using the whole procedure..I find I have no congestion at all...I still sound a little nasal when when I speak....and have a dry ticklish throat from the persistent post nasal drip and coughing over the past months.....at the moment PND seems to be the final hurdle to overcome although its far less than it was Cheers Vic On 12/30/06 2:58 PM, in article 4596eddd_1@news.iprimus.com.au, "Vic" <rovic@home.com.au> wrote: > Murray > Thank you for your advice [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Cheers > Vic Read the FAQ. Hot tea - green/black and chicken soup help restore nasal / chest cilia. Try this now. Hydro Med ships pulsatile irrigators to Australia all the time. This has been an informative thread. One thing I guess I haven't really read before is that blowing your nose can be bad. Common sense tells me not to go all out when I blow, but I know that I sometimes still blow pretty hard trying to get junk out. What are some of the implications of blowing one's nose too hard? I'm guessing that it's possible to force mucous back up into the maxillary sinus cavities and other cavities as well? Thanks for this good thread! >This has been an informative thread. One > thing I guess I haven't really read before is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Thanks for this good thread! I had read somewhere that during an acute flair-up of sinusitis, the body's natural nasal clearing mechanism: the sneeze, is stifled. ...I also found this to be true. (As opposed to the usual sneezing fits that one experiences with a cold or allergy) ...I thought: could there be a reason for this? Well, I don't know if there is a medical correlation. --As in, the sneezing response is automatically stifled to help our bodies, help themselves. ...But I do know that every single flair-up of sinusitis that I have had in recent years, was preceded by my own stupidity of going against the one thing that I preach to everyone else here: IE: Don't blow the nose !! ...Jon. >> This has been an informative thread. One >> thing I guess I haven't really read before is [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > going against the one thing that I preach to everyone else here: IE: > Don't blow the nose !! ...Jon. That's interesting. I'll try to notice if I see the same thing. In any case, what the heck do you do when you're nose is stuffed? I mean, sometimes, you can clear lots of junk out by blowing? How else do you get rid of it? Sinusitus - the gift that keeps on giving! >That's interesting. I'll try to notice if I see the > same thing. In any case, what the heck do > you do when you're nose is stuffed? I mean, > sometimes, you can clear lots of junk out by > blowing? How else do you get rid of it? > Sinusitus - the gift that keeps on giving! Well it's rare for me to be stuffed up to the point where I can't breath through my nose. ...However, if I am congested, I'll simply irrigate, and this usually clears things up for me. .....Remember... The nasal system is designed to clear itself. You liquefy the interior, and let gravity do its thing. ..The blowing the nose with force, regimen, reminds me of how many people use the toilet. They'll grunt and strain thinking that the faster and more force they can get behind the crap coming out, the better off they'll be. ...And then they wonder why they end up developing hemorrhoids, while still in their twenties. ...Sorry for the analogy, but it's the truth. I would think by trying to blow a congested (and infected) nose, you might just as well load a compressor with a bunch of infected materal, and blow it directly into your nose. ...Heck, you're doing the same thing by blowing. It may only be a small part of your sinuses that are currently infected, but by blowing, you work wonders a spreading the infection throughout the nasal interior... Well getting back to the irrigation...... It is important to keep in mind that if you are congested, you don't want to force the liquid in. If I'm in any doubt, I will hold the irrigator "very" loosely to my nostril, and see if any liquid is getting through. ...Sometimes, one side is clearer than the other (don't know why that is ??). ...You also might want to try breathing the liquid in while irrigating. Don't worry, it won't go into your lungs. It'll build up in the back of your throat, then you spit it out. Finally ...Most people blow there nose after irrigating, simply to get the water out. There's an easier, and better way. ...You lay on a bed with your head over the edge, and looking sideways, gently breath out. Pinch the nose (solidly), and while holding it, swallow --once. ..Continue pinching the nose for about 10 seconds. ...The swallowing creates a suction in the sinuses so that when you release the nose, a bunch of water (and hopefully) infected mucus can be easily "breathed" out (without having to honk from your toe tips). ...Jon Johnny, Thanks for the detailed response; I really appreciate it. This seems like common sense, and yet I am guilty of blowing my nose forcefully way too much. And then wondering why my sinus infections linger. You've done your good deed for the week. I'm going to be very conscious of this and see how I fare. Right now, I'm only using an AYR saline rinse bottle. I've been thinking about going with a waterpic or Grossan's machine. I'll get after it and try one out. Which type do you use? Thanks again. >> That's interesting. I'll try to notice if I see the >> same thing. In any case, what the heck do [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > bunch of water (and hopefully) infected mucus can be easily "breathed" > out (without having to honk from your toe tips). ...Jon norealaddy@nono.com (Andy) >Right now, I'm only using an AYR saline rinse > bottle. I've been thinking about going with a > waterpic or Grossan's machine. I'll get after it > and try one out. Which type do you use? Hi Andy... I use the standard waterpik unit, along with Dr. Grossan's adaptor that I purchased from his company (Hydromed?) about 6 years ago. ...I dropped into his LA office a few years back (while enroute to San Diego), and purchased another new adaptor, but ended up giving it to my Dr. for one of his "sinus" patients who practically lived on antibiotics. (It's too bad... Dr. Grossan couldn't send out some info. on his device, to all the Drs. ...Even my Dr. was surprised to hear that one could actually put water<salted> into the nose, without having to writhe in pain on the floor. He was quite intrigued by the device. ...Of course, if Dr. Grossan did that, the big drug companies would probably send someone over to his house to measure him up for a set of cement shoes ;-) Good luck.. Incidentally, the adaptors last forever. ...And as long as you're careful to rinse the waterpik out after each use, they can last for years too. ...Jon Well, mine started breaking down after six months and died a painful death at about the 13-14 month mark. It was good while it worked though. And I cleaned it twice a week with bleach and vinegar. The motor though just gave out. > norealaddy@nono.com (Andy) > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > you're careful to rinse the waterpik out after each use, they can last > for years too. ...Jon >Well, mine started breaking down after six > months and died a painful death at about the > 13-14 month mark. It was good while it > worked though. And I cleaned it twice a week > with bleach and vinegar. The motor though > just gave out. I've gone through quite a few over the years myself, but this latest one has been working great for 2 years now. ...I did have to take it apart once, 'cause the on/off switch wouldn't keep the unit turned on, but it was just a matter of bending the contact wire inside -- the switches are very flimsy. I never use bleach or vinegar, as problems start once the grease inside is flushed away, or if salt crystals build up on the motor from interior leaks. ...Rather, I just make sure I flush the unit well, after each use, with clear water. ...And if I go a few days without using the device, I run 90% rubbing alcohol through it for a few seconds. I know Dr. Grossan wouldn't recommend his, as it clashes with the composition of his irrigating tip, but there are ways around that. ...Jon > Well, mine started breaking down after six months and died a painful > death at about the 13-14 month mark. It was good while it worked > though. And I cleaned it twice a week with bleach and vinegar. The > motor though just gave out. I think you're referring to the Waterpik machine now, not the adapter. Yes, they break down a lot, especially when using with saline solution, sanitizing with bleach, etc. Your washing it with bleach could have caused the break down itself. However, they have a two year warranty, and great customer service. Just call them and tell them yours broke down. They'll ask for your serial number. They might ask to hear the unit (if it makes any sound) over the phone. Then they'll send you a new one, you don't have to send in the old one, nor a purchase receipt, etc. > I think you're referring to the Waterpik machine now, not the adapter. Yes, > they break down a lot, especially when using with saline solution, > sanitizing with bleach, etc. Your washing it with bleach could have caused > the break down itself. No, I was referring to the Grossan Irrigator, I do not own a Waterpik machine. I never had any problems with the adapter. The Grossan comes with two of them and I only had to use one. They seem pretty sturdy to me. The problem was with the ON/OFF button not responding periodically, to it being stuck on ON and finally the motor quitting. >> I think you're referring to the Waterpik machine now, not the adapter. >> Yes, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > No, I was referring to the Grossan Irrigator, I do not own a Waterpik > machine. Well, you were referring to an irrigation machine, not the adapter, which the person you responded to was referring to. In that case (Grossan machine rather than Waterpik), you will, from what I read here (never owned the former myself) not have the good customer service replacement policy such as the one the Waterpik company has. ... Incidentally, the adaptors last forever. ... Not true in my experience, and that of others who have written here as well. They break fairly easy. I have had to replace adapters many times over the years. Someone posted here a link to an adapter with an all metal shaft. That should hold up better. I forgot the link though. Waterpik makes its own sinus adapter now too, available in many local drug stores. I've had those break on me too (one just broke, in fact), but they cost less than the Grossan adapters (also quite breakable), and are available in most stores that sell Waterpiks, i.e. most drug stores. >><Johnny1000@webtv.net> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > fairly easy. I have had to replace adapters > many times over the years. What do you guys do with them? Chew on them?? ...Jesus.. The shaft is way stronger than the standard water-pik (tooth) adapters, and the tip is like: "solid rubber". ...What's to break? ...Jon >> What do you guys do with them? Chew on them?? > ...Jesus.. The shaft is way stronger than the standard water-pik > (tooth) adapters, and the tip is like: "solid rubber". ...What's to > break? ...Jon Of course not the tip, and not the main part of the shaft, but the part that sticks into the irrigator handle. Very breakable. >Of course not the tip, and not the main part of > the shaft, but the part that sticks into the > irrigator handle. Very breakable. Ahh... I get you. You know, I bet the problem lies in the way you use your irrigator in comparison to my system. I bet you hold the irrigator by the handle, and from this point, physically hold the tip to your nostril. This would put the most strain right at the point where the shaft enters the handle. ...I, on the other hand, irrigate by holding the rubber tip, and the shaft itself, where the tip slides on. Thus there is no strain at all on the part of the shaft near the handle. ..Jon > ... Incidentally, the adaptors last forever. ... > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > cost less than the Grossan adapters (also quite breakable), and are > available in most stores that sell Waterpiks, i.e. most drug stores. was it ethicare.com? Looked like much better build quality. Susan > was it ethicare.com? Looked like much better build quality. > > Susan No, it wasn't Ethicare, although I'm familiar with their adapters as well.
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