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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / November 2006

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papaya enzyme in irrigation water

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kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 28 Oct 2006 16:23 GMT
Has anyone ever tried dissolving papaya enzyme in your irrigaton water?
 Would it work that way or would it cause too much irritation?

Kathyw
MS - 28 Oct 2006 20:53 GMT
Those chewable papaya tablets have a lot more in them than the papaya
enzyme, papain. For instance-sugar, coloring, flavoring, and whatever makes
it a chewable tablet.

I wouldn't risk putting all those substances in my nose. If you try it,
however, please report to us how it worked.

> Has anyone ever tried dissolving papaya enzyme in your irrigaton water?
>  Would it work that way or would it cause too much irritation?
>
> Kathyw
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 29 Oct 2006 02:21 GMT
I looked at the bottle and the first "other" ingredient was fructose.
It doesn't say how much, but I would guess that it is quite a bit.  It
probably wouldn't be too good to "nourish" any microbes that might be
in there.  There are some other things in it too that I'm not sure
about; I am going to look them up.   I'm getting so desperate that I
might try it once anyway.   The mucus is so thick it sticks like glue
to my sinuses.  The only thing that helps at all is using xylitol
rinses, alternating with saline rinses.  Putting the papaya enzyme
between my gum and jaw helps a little.  I've been drinking green tea
also and doing steam inhalation.  When it finally breaks loose, it will
drain copiously for hours or days.  This is still after having surgery
to open up sphenoids and frontals in July.   Does anybody else have any
other suggestions for making the mucus less "sticky?"   Mucinex doesn't
help at all.  Neither do decongestants nor antihistimines

> Those chewable papaya tablets have a lot more in them than the papaya
> enzyme, papain. For instance-sugar, coloring, flavoring, and whatever makes
> it a chewable tablet.
>
> I wouldn't risk putting all those substances in my nose. If you try it,
> however, please report to us how it worked.
ilaboo - 29 Oct 2006 12:08 GMT
good way to consider the isssue of what to put in nasal irrigating fluids is
that would you irrigate your eye with it--

>I looked at the bottle and the first "other" ingredient was fructose.
> It doesn't say how much, but I would guess that it is quite a bit.  It
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>> I wouldn't risk putting all those substances in my nose. If you try it,
>> however, please report to us how it worked.
Steven L. - 29 Oct 2006 16:13 GMT
> Does anybody else have any
> other suggestions for making the mucus less "sticky?"

There is quite a bit of research showing that oral N-acetyl-cysteine
(NAC) can be an effective mucolytic.  It works for me, in dosing of at
least 600 mg 3x/day.  What's really cool about NAC is it seems to partly
liquefy the PND that has gone down into my windpipe, making it much
easier to cough and spit out.

Also, some other folks swear by Alkalol irrigation, though I have found
it too irritating for my chronically inflamed mucosa.

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kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 29 Oct 2006 18:16 GMT
> > Does anybody else have any
> > other suggestions for making the mucus less "sticky?"
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Also, some other folks swear by Alkalol irrigation, though I have found
> it too irritating for my chronically inflamed mucosa.

Thanks,

   I will try the NAC.  Do you take it 3X a day every day?  Is it
irritating to the digestive system.  I have a lot of digestive problems
too.  I can't use the Alkalol either;
Susan - 29 Oct 2006 18:21 GMT
>>>Does anybody else have any
>>>other suggestions for making the mucus less "sticky?"
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> irritating to the digestive system.  I have a lot of digestive problems
> too.  I can't use the Alkalol either;

It can be really rough on your stomach.  You'll know right away.

Susan
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 29 Oct 2006 18:28 GMT
Susan,

Have you tried it?  If so, did it work for you?

> It can be really rough on your stomach.  You'll know right away.
>
> Susan
Susan - 29 Oct 2006 19:26 GMT
> Susan,
>
> Have you tried it?  If so, did it work for you?

Kathy, I tried it years ago for another purpose.  I had to quit at that
time due to stomach irritation and nausea.

Susan
Murray Grossan - 30 Oct 2006 05:14 GMT
On 10/29/06 9:28 AM, in article
1162142906.551294.271920@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,

> Susan,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>> Susan

For thinning mucus I have had nice results with proteolytic enzymes such as
papain and bromelain. My company, Hydro Med makes a buccal tablet called
Clear.ease which thins mucus and reduces swelling.
Susan - 30 Oct 2006 14:27 GMT
> For thinning mucus I have had nice results with proteolytic enzymes such as
> papain and bromelain. My company, Hydro Med makes a buccal tablet called
> Clear.ease which thins mucus and reduces swelling.

NAC has additional benefits, though that your product does not.

Susan
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 30 Oct 2006 16:00 GMT
> On 10/29/06 9:28 AM, in article
> 1162142906.551294.271920@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
>
> For thinning mucus I have had nice results with proteolytic enzymes such as
> papain and bromelain. My company, Hydro Med makes a buccal tablet called
> Clear.ease which thins mucus and reduces swelling.

Thanks for your input Dr. Grossan, but if you read my original message,
I am already using papaya enzyme plus bromelain between my cheek and
gum as you have suggested with a little benefit.  My question was:  Is
it safe and/or effective to dissolve it in the irrigation water and
irrigate with it?   Also, would eating pineapple give the same
benefits?

Thanks for all the other responses also.

Kathyw
Susan - 30 Oct 2006 16:03 GMT
>>On 10/29/06 9:28 AM, in article
>>1162142906.551294.271920@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Kathyw

Kathy, it may be safe if you buy it in powder or gel cap form, without
sugar and or binders, and use pure enzyme.

Susan
Murray Grossan - 31 Oct 2006 04:56 GMT
On 10/30/06 7:00 AM, in article
1162220451.641846.63110@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com,

> it safe and/or effective to dissolve it in the irrigation water and
> irrigate with it?

I don't know and I wouldn't want to be the test animal to try it on.
august - 30 Oct 2006 01:57 GMT
>> > Does anybody else have any
>> > other suggestions for making the mucus less "sticky?"
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> irritating to the digestive system.  I have a lot of digestive problems
> too.  I can't use the Alkalol either;

When I take NAC I have sometimes experienced mild heartburn when I take the
capsule with only a sip of water or when I lay down immediately after taking
it. If I drink at least a half a glass of water and sit upright I have no
problems.  AW
MS - 04 Nov 2006 22:12 GMT
I think it's best to take NAC with a meal, not on an empty stomach.

>>> > Does anybody else have any
>>> > other suggestions for making the mucus less "sticky?"
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> taking it. If I drink at least a half a glass of water and sit upright I
> have no problems.  AW
Lateralus - 06 Nov 2006 02:21 GMT
> I think it's best to take NAC with a meal, not on an empty stomach.
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> > taking it. If I drink at least a half a glass of water and sit upright I
> > have no problems.  AW

Hi Mike what Californian surgeon was it that botched your sinus
surgery, i'm having surgery tomorrow and i just want to be sure and
safe??
MS - 06 Nov 2006 07:37 GMT
> Hi Mike what Californian surgeon was it that botched your sinus
> surgery, i'm having surgery tomorrow and i just want to be sure and
> safe??

This is rather off-topic, not having anything to do with papaya enzyme.

Who said my sinus surgery was "botched"?? I don't think I ever wrote
anything to that effect. I did get a perforated septum as a result of a
septoplasty, but I understand that is a pretty common "side effect" of
septoplasty, and doesn't necessarily mean that anything was "botched".

As you can read here on the NG, where several people who have had sinus
surgery regularly write about their ongoing sinus problems, surgery is far
from a cure. In helping with some symptoms, it seems often to cause or
exacerbate others. So, one should be cautious about it.

Who is your surgeon?
Lateralus - 06 Nov 2006 02:21 GMT
> I think it's best to take NAC with a meal, not on an empty stomach.
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> > taking it. If I drink at least a half a glass of water and sit upright I
> > have no problems.  AW

Hi Mike what Californian surgeon was it that botched your sinus
surgery, i'm having surgery tomorrow and i just want to be sure and
safe??
Lateralus - 06 Nov 2006 02:21 GMT
> I think it's best to take NAC with a meal, not on an empty stomach.
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> > taking it. If I drink at least a half a glass of water and sit upright I
> > have no problems.  AW

Hi Mike what Californian surgeon was it that botched your sinus
surgery, i'm having surgery tomorrow and i just want to be sure and
safe??
Steven L. - 30 Oct 2006 02:51 GMT
>>> Does anybody else have any
>>> other suggestions for making the mucus less "sticky?"
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>     I will try the NAC.  Do you take it 3X a day every day?  Is it
> irritating to the digestive system.  

It gives me mild heartburn, unless I take it with a lot of water or with
food.

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Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

MS - 04 Nov 2006 22:12 GMT
I've been trying NAC as well, in even greater quantities than you (5 of the
600 mg caps per day), and really cannot say that it has helped me at all. My
phlegm is still sticky as glue, not at all liquefied,

There is supposedly some research being done on developing new muculytics
(lomucin, for example), but I don't know when they will actually be
available, or how effective they will be.

>> Does anybody else have any
>> other suggestions for making the mucus less "sticky?"
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Also, some other folks swear by Alkalol irrigation, though I have found it
> too irritating for my chronically inflamed mucosa.
ebc - 30 Oct 2006 19:45 GMT
NAC 600mg 2-3 times per day is very helpful but make sure you take a trace
mineral supplement since long term use of NAC depletes copper and
selenium. The very first time I took NAC was in the evening when I had
also taken an Advil for my sinus headache. Within in an hour or so, my
sinuses began to drain an enormous amount of thick discolored mucous
including some darker green round specks I always identify as the actual
bacteria colony. This profuse drainage continued for four hours or more
and seemed to clear out every bit of infection. The following day I was
exhausted but felt much better. I cannot explain why this happened and it
has never happened again even though I take 600mg NAC every morning before
breakfast with a large glass (12 oz) of water. I have noticeable mucous
thinning and clearing soon after taking the NAC. Later after lunch and
early evening I take NAC again, but there is less mucous. I have been
doing this for about 6 months. Some days I skip the mid-day capsule. I
also take quite a few anti-inflammatory herbs and enzymes that I know make
a difference as well.
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 30 Oct 2006 21:56 GMT
> NAC 600mg 2-3 times per day is very helpful but make sure you take a trace
> mineral supplement since long term use of NAC depletes copper and
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> also take quite a few anti-inflammatory herbs and enzymes that I know make
> a difference as well.

Thanks for some more information on this.  What are the
anti-inflammatory herbs and enzymes that you take that help?  Right now
I am diagnosed with chronic steroid dependent frontal and sphenoid
sinusitis and am on low dose prednisone; I've also been diagnosed with
allergic fungal sinusitis, not the actual allergy, but the abnormal
immune response to mold and also have to take antifungals and
antibiotics off and on.  Most of the time now I get out white to clear
sticky mucus (when it will come out), but was getting out large amounts
of dark brown mucus  and whitish brown material that looked like fungal
hyphae.  I've also had 5 gram - bacteria cultured out in the last 2
years and not sure I am rid of the last one, Klebsiella.   I don't want
to stay on all these drugs the rest of my life, but right now it's the
only way I can function at all, so I'm trying to find out any
alternatives that might work for the inflammation.  I already know
about the low dose macrolides, which I may ask my allergist to try, but
right now until I know the gram - bacteria are gone, I'm afraid to use
them and would rather try other alternatives first.

BTW,  for anyone that might be interested, neither the sporanox rinse
nor amphotericin rinse helped me at all.  Oral sporanox and Vfend have
helped somewhat.  Diflucan will get rid of Candida (yeast), but not the
other molds that have been cultured.  

Kathyw
Steven L. - 30 Oct 2006 22:57 GMT
> Thanks for some more information on this.  What are the
> anti-inflammatory herbs and enzymes that you take that help?  Right now
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> only way I can function at all, so I'm trying to find out any
> alternatives that might work for the inflammation.  

Kathy,
doesn't all this stuff you have to do end up affecting your lifestyle
anyway?

I'm an engineer.  In today's economy, I'm expected to work overtime (a
lot!), jump on airplanes and go flying back and forth across the country
the way other people jump on the subway, etc.  I just can't do it
anymore.  The flying and jet lag shoots my sinuses to hell; getting the
phlegm out of my windpipe takes time and the coughing lowers my
productivity, so no overtime for me.  The sinusitis worsens my asthma
which means there are nights when I get very little sleep and the next
day I'm wasted.  In fact, I find I'm not able to work more than
part-time with this curse.

How do you cope???

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kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 31 Oct 2006 03:51 GMT
> Kathy,
> doesn't all this stuff you have to do end up affecting your lifestyle
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> How do you cope???

Well,  quite frankly, I haven't been coping very well for the last 3
years.  I haven't worked at all and done very little of anything, but
take a photography class 2 years ago before the sinusitis got the worst
it has ever been and I started having excruciating pain behind my nose,
top and back of head.   Luckily, I had 30 years of teaching experience
so I was able to get full retirement, which still isn't a lot, but
better than nothing.  I would much rather be working, at least part
time.  Just knowing I had to do something for a few hours a day would
help (in more ways than one), but there are some days I can't function
at all.  What little energy I have I try to spend with family and a few
friends.   Luckily, I have a wonderful husband who does most of the
cooking and housework, so that when I feel fairly well I can do some of
my hobbies and spend some time with my grandchildren.  I have to take
medication for anxiety and pain.  I'm 58 and never took anything like
this until the last few years.   I don't know how you continue to fly
because the last time I flew I thought my ears and head were going to
explode.  I did buy some kind of plugs that they sold at the airport on
the way home that helped quite a bit.  I don't remember what they were
called.  Have you tried them?

If you remember from another post,  I had an acute sphenoid infection
about 12 years ago that should have been treated but wasn't and I had
one several years before that I think was probably in the sphenoids (I
developed vertigo with it and have off and on since then.and ran low
garde fevers for several year that would go away after taking an
antibiotoc;  then, I guess my body just quit responidng;  maybe the
infection got walled off or something;   I don't know; but now I rarely
ever run a fever;  it is usually below normal.  There wasn't a CT scan
done at that time;  I'm not even sure they had them then.  But the
strange thing was that even then nothing came out of my head until I
started on the antibiotic. I had no idea that it was a sinus infection.
I went to the ER because I was so dizzy I couldn't walk and was
running a high fever.   After I started the antibitoc (don't even
remember what it was)  I blew out green junk for several days.   I was
in my early 30's and had never had a sinus infection or even been on an
antibitoic before.   Dr. Sherris has been the only ENT that I've seen
of many over the years that saw the openings were blocked  just by
looking at current scans.  He also detected the inflammation that
others had missed.  I think the sphenoids are the "forgotten or
neglected" sinuses.

The only way that I've been able to cope is to keep having hope!!
Everytime I run into a blind alley, I get really depressed and ready to
give up.  I've been up all night in pain so bad I've prayed to die,
only to be told by locat ENT that there was nothing wrong with my
sinuses.  Then by the grace of God and my family, I'll pull out of it
and start trying again. I've been all over the country trying to find
out what is wrong  I've basically had to do my own research and be my
own doctor.  Fortunately, my background is in Biology and Science
Education, so I've known a little about where to start.   I've gotten
all my records  over the years  that have been like pieces of a puzzle
and am still putting them together.   Everywhere I've been has had a
little piece of the puzzle that didn't present a diagnosis at the time.
Every ENT that I saw kept saying I didn't have sinusitis until I saw
Dr. Guaderas at Mayo, Jacksonville, who is an allergist, not an ENT.
That was back in 1997.  He was the first one to do an endoscopy and saw
the puruelent drainage and suggested the possibility of chronic
sinusitis.  He also reviewed the scan that I had brought of the acute
sphenoid infection and said it wasn't normal.  He started me on
antibiotics again and that's when I started coughing up the brown junk.
I went back the next year and saw an ENT and pulmonologist and they
both said I didn't have significant sinus or lung problems.  However, I
continued to cough up the brown junk for the next 6 years, then globs
would come out of my head when I started irrigating.   I still don't
know if something started in my lungs (like Blastomycosis) and spread
to my sinuses or if the lung problems were from the sinus drainage.
Curiously, my lungs cleared up shortly after I quit work where I had a
major mold exposure, but I had been on and off of nebulized amphotericn
B, tobramycin and low dose prednisone then.  My lungs have been clear
ever since then, even though I've had even more copious drainage from
my sinuses when they aren't plugged up and digestive problems got
worse.  I thought quitting work would help with the sinusitis, and
doctors quit treating me with anything and i gradually got worse
instead of better.    I finally found an ENT in Atlanta that did the
first endoscopic culture that showed the Blstomyces and Serratia
marcescens, but he just uses nasal sprays and they didn't work.  Then I
found an ENT in Knoxville, closer to home, who has taken it more
seriously and in a round about way he directed me to Dr. Sherris.
Also, it is interesting to note that I had been told by most ENTs and
even at National Jewish that reflux was causing me to cough up the
brown junk (although it was only on one side when they did a
bronchoscopy and so inflammed it bled and they had to quit).  The 2nd
or 3rd night after this last surgery in July, junk started pouring out
of my head and went into my digestive tract.  If I hadn't experienced
the same pain before many times, I would have thought I was having a
heart attack.  My digestive problems have improved quite a bit since
then.  Two pH probes over the years never showed significant reflux,
but I had documented grade II esophgitis at one point and have had
gastritis and duodenitis on several ocassions.  I have reduced the
nexium from 4X a day to 2X a day since the surgery.  I feel sure that
the decreased amount of drainage has helped significantly.  I'm also
suspicous that my mold exposure to Fusarium (showed sensitization to it
twice)  contributed to my digestive problems as well as the sinus
problems.  But that's an entirely different story.

I guess you could say I've been running a maze and finding a lot of
blind alleys.  Each time I do, I have to back up and try again.  I've
not been right about all of my analyses.  Probably many of the
decisions that I have made have caused more harm than good, but I
honestly believe that if I hadn't taken charge of my own destiny that I
wouldn't be alive today.  You just have to have hope and keep trying.to
find a solution.  I know that's easier said than done, but this time
last year I couldn't even have written this I was in so much pain and
basically nonfunctional,  So, I am improving somewhat.  If this doesn't
work I'll keep trying,   I have spent most of my retirement on medical
bills.  Thankfully, I worked long enough to have good insurance or I
don't know what I would have done.

Unfortunately, all of our experiences are  different and there is no
single solution.  I don't know that we can learn that much from each
other about how we should treat our individual cases, but the support
and knowing what has helped others is of great benefit.   I do know one
thing for sure:  If your gut reaction keeps telling you that you have
sinusitis, especially if it doesn't get better, you need to keep
pursuing avenues to find the answers no matter what an individual
doctor tells you and the sooner the better.  The longer you wait, the
worse it is going to get.

I'm sorry I keep rambling on, but when I'm feeling half way decent I
feel the need to let others know how serious this can get.  I don't
want people ending up in the shape that I've been in.  

Kathyw
--
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