Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / October 2006
Keep Klean
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Murray Grossan - 20 Oct 2006 02:27 GMT Keeping Hydro Pulse clean is easy. About once a week run dilute vinegar through the machine. That's four ounces or 120 of vinegar to 400 cc of water in the basin. Run the entire 500 cc.
To sterilize you can add 200 cc of regular hydrogen peroxide to the basin. Put the nasal tip into the peroxide and run through for a minute. Let stand two hours. Then rinse.
Susan - 20 Oct 2006 12:51 GMT > Keeping Hydro Pulse clean is easy. > About once a week run dilute vinegar through the machine. That's four ounces [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Put the nasal tip into the peroxide and run through for a minute. Let stand > two hours. Then rinse. I think we know how to clean it.
What we don't know is how to keep pathogens from growing in the narrow, dark, wet, tightly coiled tubing between cleanings.
This is a serious design flaw that you should address, Murray. It's so bad that one poster here recommends throwing out the irrigator rather than storing it; it can't be dried.
Susan
judy.n - 20 Oct 2006 13:04 GMT You used to recommend a dilute bleach solution--bleach is a better sterilizer than hydrogen peroxide. The vinegar will discourage pseudomonas--why only a weak solution, and only weekly? Judy
> x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Susan tdonline - 20 Oct 2006 18:18 GMT Yeah, I've been usuing bleach, is that out?
> You used to recommend a dilute bleach solution--bleach is a better > sterilizer than hydrogen peroxide. The vinegar will discourage [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > > > Susan 5438 - 20 Oct 2006 18:38 GMT > You used to recommend a dilute bleach solution--bleach is a better > sterilizer than hydrogen peroxide. The vinegar will discourage > pseudomonas--why only a weak solution, and only weekly?
> > > Keeping Hydro Pulse clean is easy. > > > About once a week run dilute vinegar through the machine. That's four ounces [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > Put the nasal tip into the peroxide and run through for a minute. Let stand > > > two hours. Then rinse.
> > I think we know how to clean it.
> > What we don't know is how to keep pathogens from growing in the narrow, > > dark, wet, tightly coiled tubing between cleanings. > > This is a serious design flaw that you should address, Murray. It's so > > bad that one poster here recommends throwing out the irrigator rather > > than storing it; it can't be dried. I just bought a Grossan Hydro-Pulse, but after reading this I'm going to return it.
I'll just keep rinsing with the easy to use and clean rubber squeeze bulb.
judy.n - 20 Oct 2006 19:34 GMT This was a post from Dr. Grossan to Susan (before you stopped archiving your posts) about using bleach to clean the hydro pulse. When people use nebulizers for asthma, they run the compressed air through the tubing until it's dry, and the mouth piece is dishwasher safe: there are no areas inside the nebulizer to collect water, and you should replace the tubing periodically. A water pik/hydro pulse must have some area inside it that runs the water from the container to the tubing--I wonder if that area ever dries out? Here's the bleach post: 3 From: ENTconsult - view profile Date: Mon, Jan 19 2004 2:04 am Not yet rated
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It should be in your package insert when you obtained the Hydro PUlse. Mix bleach one part bleach to 10 parts water. run through the machine, back into the basin. Time exactly 10 minutes. then dump the solution out of the basin and rinse with clear water until bleach odor is gone. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com Judy
> > You used to recommend a dilute bleach solution--bleach is a better > > sterilizer than hydrogen peroxide. The vinegar will discourage [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I'll just keep rinsing with the easy to use and clean rubber squeeze bulb. Susan - 20 Oct 2006 21:00 GMT > This was a post from Dr. Grossan to Susan (before you stopped archiving > your posts) about using bleach to clean the hydro pulse. When people [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > area inside it that runs the water from the container to the tubing--I > wonder if that area ever dries out? Actually, I've often worried/wondered about the area under the container breeding pathogens, because there's no way to get in there and clean it.
:-/ Susan
Susan - 20 Oct 2006 20:59 GMT > I just bought a Grossan Hydro-Pulse, but after reading this I'm going to return it. > > I'll just keep rinsing with the easy to use and clean rubber squeeze bulb. I think the squeeze bulb is at least as big a problem to keep sterile as the Hydropulse.
Susan
5438 - 20 Oct 2006 22:55 GMT "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote:> x-no-archive: yes
> > I just bought a Grossan Hydro-Pulse, but after reading this I'm going to return it. > > I'll just keep rinsing with the easy to use and clean rubber squeeze bulb.
> I think the squeeze bulb is at least as big a problem to keep sterile as > the Hydropulse. Howcome? ... it's so easy to clean and it has an open top on the bulb (when the plastic cap is pulled off) so that air can get in and dry it out ... air has no chance at all of getting into the coils of the Hydropulse. I don't understand.
Susan - 20 Oct 2006 23:01 GMT > Howcome? ... it's so easy to clean and it has an open top on the > bulb (when the plastic cap is pulled off) so that air can get in and > dry it out ... air has no chance at all of getting into the coils of the > Hydropulse. I don't understand. The opening is too narrow and I don't believe it dries out quickly enough to prevent stuff from growing inside.
I agree that the Hydropulse is also a hazard wrt to trapped moisture.
Susan
judy.n - 20 Oct 2006 23:25 GMT I got a nasty infection when I used a bulb syringe--it didn't have an opening at the top, so it was always wet, and I couldn't see the inside. I did clean it to the best of my ability. One thing about neti pots--you can throw them in the dishwasher, and they dry out well between uses. I just think if you use a bulb syringe, rinse/soak it with white vinegar--because pseudomonas loves wet areas, and it hates the acid of vinegar. The neilmed, which seems to be disliked here, but I use it occasionally, instructs you to use vinegar to clean it. Undiluted--unlike Dr. Grossan's 10% dilution. We're all searching for the perfect method of irrigation, and it's clear there isn't one. Judy
> x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Susan august - 22 Oct 2006 01:01 GMT > I just bought a Grossan Hydro-Pulse, but after reading this I'm going to > return it. > > I'll just keep rinsing with the easy to use and clean rubber squeeze bulb. Personally I think the recent newsgroup concerns about cleaning the Hydropulse are a tempest in a teapot. Is there any proof there is a real life problem with cleaning as opposed to (semi-hysterical) supposition of a problem? I clean my Hydropulse with bleach or vinegar every couple weeks. Other than that I don't worry about it. I do know that after twenty years of chronic sinusitis that I have not had to use oral antibiotics once since beginning regular Hydropulse irrigation. I'm very grateful to be able to purchase such a helpful tool. AW
Susan - 22 Oct 2006 02:20 GMT > Personally I think the recent newsgroup concerns about cleaning the > Hydropulse are a tempest in a teapot. Is there any proof there is a real [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > beginning regular Hydropulse irrigation. I'm very grateful to be able to > purchase such a helpful tool. AW That's one great anecdote!
I've had to take oral antibiotics several times in the year and a half I've been using mine, and I clean it more often than you do.
Susan
judy.n - 22 Oct 2006 14:42 GMT Why would you characterize the debate about cleaning irrigation tools as "semi-hysterical"?
Per the posts by Dr, Grossan, he advises cleaning the hydropulse, only the methods have varied from vinegar/peroxide/bleach.
We've established that dark wet environments breed micro-organisms--usually gram negative bacteria--and we've had other ENT's--like Dr. Ferguson from Univ of Pittsburgh state:
"Patients should be warned to use filtered or boiled water, and to make sure the device used for irrigation is cleaned frequently to prevent iatrogenic inoculation with water loving microbes such as Pseudomonas and Serratia."
I'd advise you to read her well reasoned comments on an article on irrigation: http://www.annfammed.org/cgi/eletters/4/4/295
Recently there was a very interesting post about how one person actually feels better now that he irrigates less, and the FAQ auto-post argues against excessive irrigation.
So, irrigation can be helpful, but it needs to be done carefully so as not to introduce infection. No one method has proved superior, and no one solution is superior. Clearly too much irrigation, or irrigation with a device loaded with bacteria is not helpful.
I know of severral people whose sinus disease signifcantly improved as soon as they began to irrigate--with the neti pot. As Dr. Ferguson said, some people's noses don't "self-cleanse" well. However, there are many people with active, severe sinus disease despite irrigation.
So, it's great that the hydropulse has stopped your chronic sinusitis, but unfortunately it hasn't had that miraculous effect on everyone.
"Semi-hysterical" is perjorative, and I don't believe acurately reflects the comments on this and other threads, Judy
> > I just bought a Grossan Hydro-Pulse, but after reading this I'm going to > > return it. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > beginning regular Hydropulse irrigation. I'm very grateful to be able to > purchase such a helpful tool. AW Susan - 22 Oct 2006 14:57 GMT > "Semi-hysterical" is perjorative, and I don't believe acurately > reflects the comments on this and other threads, Pejorative is such a neutral word.
"Semi-hysterical" is misogynistic.
Susan
aroberts - 22 Oct 2006 22:20 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Susan Only in the strictest etymological sense; in modern and common parlance, it is gender-neutral. Unless you continue to refer to the uterus as the "hystera".
rick@spamgmail.com - 23 Oct 2006 04:35 GMT >Recently there was a very interesting post about how one person >actually feels better now that he irrigates less, Judy,
In case I'm the one with the post you are referring to (or even if I'm not, just consider this my 2 cents) when it comes to my discontinuation of the Water Pik irrigator, I want to be clear: I am not saying that I got *better* by not using it, only that I believe it didn't have an effect one way or another on me.
I will say this, however, when you run bleach through it (or is that vinegar?) it makes a fine Water Pik. ;-)
Rick
judy.n - 23 Oct 2006 12:57 GMT Rick, When I checked, it was your post. I've had a very good response to immunotherapy, and I still get shots: I have a great allergist, who unfortunately is drifting into semi-retirement, and we've done courses of shots for at least 5 years--starting almost 15 years ago, and periodic retesting and changing of the serum. At this point, I just keep getting shots, and the current ones are for mold and dander. I just read a NE Journal article--about 6 months old--about a 6 shot vaccine for ragweed that was clinically effective for the next two years. Sign me up. The last testing--at least 5 years ago--showed that the ragweed no longer reacted, but clincally, ragweed season is tough for me. My allergist treated me for pneumonia when I got the flu a couple of years ago--he was orginally trained as a family practioner--and discovered that 1) although my rapid flu was negative, blood testing confirmed influenza and 2) I have primary immunodeficiency--I'm low on two subclasses of IgG. I take the low grade macrolides: biaxin 250 mg/day--and he supports that. It was my ENT who started me on it, and continues it. Irrigation is helpful, and it gives us some control over our illness, but I think you can do it too much, and as you said, sometimes if you back off, you find the clinical benefit wasn't that great. Again, I read another NE Journal article about cystic fibrosis patients inhaling 7 ml of hypertonic saline before their respiratory treatments, and it was clinically effective at reducing lung infections. (Can you tell I'm re-reading them for countinuing ed credit currently.....) My husband gets various electric toothbrushes to try, as he's a dentist. The early Braun models could not be cleaned and collected foul debris at their base--based on the green color, probably pseudomonas. The current model snaps apart and can be easily cleaned. Any medical device should be periodically re-evaluated for design flaws and corrected if possible. I know Dr. Grossan must feel like we're attacking his device: I hope he just sees us as a post-marketing focus group. If we've identified that pseudomans and serratia like dark, wet spaces, any device for irrigation should be able to be cleaned and dried. Periodic cleansing is helpful I'm sure, but how often is questionable. My husband brings home these articles about the biofilms that grow almost instantly in his dental equipment tubes that carry water. His system is set up for cleaning with bleach. I know we are seeming to beat this subject to death, but I think we're all just trying to clarify safe ways to irrigate. Judy
> >Recently there was a very interesting post about how one person > >actually feels better now that he irrigates less, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Rick Steven L. - 23 Oct 2006 04:40 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > What we don't know is how to keep pathogens from growing in the narrow, > dark, wet, tightly coiled tubing between cleanings. The right answer is to have a coiled tube that can be easily replaced with a fresh new one, just like we can replace the (interchangeable) Grossan irrigator tips. Right now, the tubing seems to be permanently hardwired into the wand and the irrigator.
And if I cannot clean my irrigator once a week with dilute Clorox (say I'm on travel for an extended period of time and cannot take it with me), I will just throw the thing out and buy a new one.
 Signature Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
ilaboo - 29 Oct 2006 12:31 GMT i do not have one--but have been involved with cleaning colonoscopes etc.
i use 70% alcohole after rinsing my neti pot
basic principle if you can discard the item do it each time you use it--if not take the thing apart as far as you can go-- start with simple soap and water first--principle is to remove as much debri as possible extremely difficult to disinfect an item if it isd dirty ( disinfect is to remove as many icroorganisms as possible--bacteria, fungus virus etc) vinegar ( acetic acid--great for fungus pssdudomonas as is bleach--not sure about peroxide as mechanical disinfecting)--rinse with distilled water and air dry
to sterilize ( kill all microorganisms so that none are present)that is another ball game
hth
>> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > on travel for an extended period of time and cannot take it with me), I > will just throw the thing out and buy a new one. judy.n - 29 Oct 2006 14:12 GMT Could you explain how you use the alcohol to clean your neti pot: I air dry mine and run it through the dishwasher on "sterilize" about once a week. I don't clean it with every use. Once in a while I'll use a neilmed bottle, and I use vinegar to clean it after every use. I talked to their rep at a conference this week, and they sell a holder that allows it to hang and completely dry--ironically, you can buy the neilmed bottle in major drug store chains, but the air dry holder needs to be ordered on the internet. Judy
> i do not have one--but have been involved with cleaning colonoscopes etc. > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net > > Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
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