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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / October 2006

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Keep Klean

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Murray Grossan - 20 Oct 2006 02:27 GMT
Keeping Hydro Pulse clean is easy.
About once a week run dilute vinegar through the machine. That's four ounces
or 120  of vinegar to 400 cc of water in the basin. Run the entire 500 cc.

To sterilize you can add 200 cc of regular hydrogen peroxide to the basin.
Put the nasal tip into the peroxide and run through for a minute. Let stand
two hours. Then rinse.
Susan - 20 Oct 2006 12:51 GMT
> Keeping Hydro Pulse clean is easy.
> About once a week run dilute vinegar through the machine. That's four ounces
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Put the nasal tip into the peroxide and run through for a minute. Let stand
> two hours. Then rinse.

I think we know how to clean it.

What we don't know is how to keep pathogens from growing in the narrow,
dark, wet, tightly coiled tubing between cleanings.

This is a serious design flaw that you should address, Murray.  It's so
bad that one poster here recommends throwing out the irrigator rather
than storing it; it can't be dried.

Susan
judy.n - 20 Oct 2006 13:04 GMT
You used to recommend a dilute bleach solution--bleach is a better
sterilizer than hydrogen peroxide. The vinegar will discourage
pseudomonas--why only a weak solution, and only weekly?
Judy
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Susan
tdonline - 20 Oct 2006 18:18 GMT
Yeah, I've been usuing bleach, is that out?

> You used to recommend a dilute bleach solution--bleach is a better
> sterilizer than hydrogen peroxide. The vinegar will discourage
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> >
> > Susan
5438 - 20 Oct 2006 18:38 GMT
> You used to recommend a dilute bleach solution--bleach is a better
> sterilizer than hydrogen peroxide. The vinegar will discourage
> pseudomonas--why only a weak solution, and only weekly?

> > > Keeping Hydro Pulse clean is easy.
> > > About once a week run dilute vinegar through the machine. That's four ounces
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > > Put the nasal tip into the peroxide and run through for a minute. Let stand
> > > two hours. Then rinse.

> > I think we know how to clean it.

> > What we don't know is how to keep pathogens from growing in the narrow,
> > dark, wet, tightly coiled tubing between cleanings.
> > This is a serious design flaw that you should address, Murray.  It's so
> > bad that one poster here recommends throwing out the irrigator rather
> > than storing it; it can't be dried.

I just bought a Grossan Hydro-Pulse, but after reading this I'm going to return it.

I'll just keep rinsing with the easy to use and clean rubber squeeze bulb.
judy.n - 20 Oct 2006 19:34 GMT
This was a post from Dr. Grossan to Susan (before you stopped archiving
your posts) about using bleach to clean the hydro pulse. When people
use nebulizers for asthma, they run the compressed air through the
tubing until it's dry, and the mouth piece is dishwasher safe: there
are no areas inside the nebulizer to collect water, and you should
replace the tubing periodically. A water pik/hydro pulse must have some
area inside it that runs the water from the container to the tubing--I
wonder if that area ever dries out?
Here's the bleach post:
3
From:        ENTconsult - view profile
Date:        Mon, Jan 19 2004 2:04 am
Not yet rated

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It should be in your package insert when you obtained the Hydro PUlse.
Mix bleach one part bleach to 10 parts water.
run through the machine, back into the basin. Time exactly 10 minutes.
then
dump the solution out of the basin and rinse with clear water until
bleach odor
is gone.
Murray Grossan, M.D.
http://www.ent-consult.com
Judy
> > You used to recommend a dilute bleach solution--bleach is a better
> > sterilizer than hydrogen peroxide. The vinegar will discourage
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> I'll just keep rinsing with the easy to use and clean rubber squeeze bulb.
Susan - 20 Oct 2006 21:00 GMT
> This was a post from Dr. Grossan to Susan (before you stopped archiving
> your posts) about using bleach to clean the hydro pulse. When people
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> area inside it that runs the water from the container to the tubing--I
> wonder if that area ever dries out?

Actually, I've often worried/wondered about the area under the container
breeding pathogens, because there's no way to get in there and clean it.
:-/

Susan
Susan - 20 Oct 2006 20:59 GMT
> I just bought a Grossan Hydro-Pulse, but after reading this I'm going to return it.
>
> I'll just keep rinsing with the easy to use and clean rubber squeeze bulb.

I think the squeeze bulb is at least as big a problem to keep sterile as
the Hydropulse.

Susan
5438 - 20 Oct 2006 22:55 GMT
"Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote:> x-no-archive: yes
> > I just bought a Grossan Hydro-Pulse, but after reading this I'm going to return it.
> > I'll just keep rinsing with the easy to use and clean rubber squeeze bulb.

> I think the squeeze bulb is at least as big a problem to keep sterile as
> the Hydropulse.

Howcome? ... it's so easy to clean and it has an open top on the
bulb (when the plastic cap is pulled off) so that air can get in and
dry it out ... air has no chance at all of getting into the coils of the
Hydropulse. I don't understand.
Susan - 20 Oct 2006 23:01 GMT
> Howcome? ... it's so easy to clean and it has an open top on the
> bulb (when the plastic cap is pulled off) so that air can get in and
> dry it out ... air has no chance at all of getting into the coils of the
> Hydropulse. I don't understand.

The opening is too narrow and I don't believe it dries out quickly
enough to prevent stuff from growing inside.

I agree that the Hydropulse is also a hazard wrt to trapped moisture.

Susan
judy.n - 20 Oct 2006 23:25 GMT
I got a nasty infection when I used a bulb syringe--it didn't have an
opening at the top, so it was always wet, and I couldn't see the
inside. I did clean it to the best of my ability.
 One thing about neti pots--you can throw them in the dishwasher, and
they dry out well between uses.
 I just think if you use a bulb syringe, rinse/soak it with white
vinegar--because pseudomonas loves wet areas, and it hates the acid of
vinegar. The neilmed, which seems to be disliked here, but I use it
occasionally, instructs you to use vinegar to clean it.
Undiluted--unlike Dr. Grossan's 10% dilution.
 We're all searching for the perfect method of irrigation, and it's
clear there isn't one.
Judy

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Susan
august - 22 Oct 2006 01:01 GMT
> I just bought a Grossan Hydro-Pulse, but after reading this I'm going to
> return it.
>
> I'll just keep rinsing with the easy to use and clean rubber squeeze bulb.

Personally I think the recent newsgroup concerns about cleaning the
Hydropulse are a tempest in a teapot. Is there any proof there is a real
life problem with cleaning as opposed to (semi-hysterical) supposition of a
problem?  I clean my Hydropulse with bleach or vinegar every couple weeks.
Other than that I don't worry about it. I do know that after twenty years of
chronic sinusitis that I have not had to use oral antibiotics once since
beginning regular Hydropulse irrigation. I'm very grateful to be able to
purchase such a helpful tool.   AW
Susan - 22 Oct 2006 02:20 GMT
> Personally I think the recent newsgroup concerns about cleaning the
> Hydropulse are a tempest in a teapot. Is there any proof there is a real
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> beginning regular Hydropulse irrigation. I'm very grateful to be able to
> purchase such a helpful tool.   AW

That's one great anecdote!

I've had to take oral antibiotics several times in the year and a half
I've been using mine, and I clean it more often than you do.

Susan
judy.n - 22 Oct 2006 14:42 GMT
Why would you characterize the debate about cleaning irrigation tools
as "semi-hysterical"?

Per the posts by Dr, Grossan, he advises cleaning the hydropulse, only
the methods have varied from vinegar/peroxide/bleach.

 We've established that dark wet environments breed
micro-organisms--usually gram negative bacteria--and we've had other
ENT's--like Dr. Ferguson from Univ of Pittsburgh state:

"Patients should be warned to use filtered or boiled water, and to make
sure the device used for irrigation is cleaned frequently to prevent
iatrogenic inoculation with water loving microbes such as Pseudomonas
and Serratia."

I'd advise you to read her well reasoned comments on an article on
irrigation:
http://www.annfammed.org/cgi/eletters/4/4/295

Recently there was a very interesting post about how one person
actually feels better now that he irrigates less, and the FAQ auto-post
argues against excessive irrigation.

So, irrigation can be helpful, but it needs to be done carefully so as
not to introduce infection. No one method has proved superior, and no
one solution is superior. Clearly too much irrigation, or irrigation
with a device loaded with bacteria is not helpful.

I know of severral people whose sinus disease signifcantly improved as
soon as they began to irrigate--with the neti pot. As Dr. Ferguson
said, some people's  noses don't "self-cleanse" well. However, there
are many people with active, severe sinus disease despite irrigation.

So, it's great that the hydropulse has stopped your chronic sinusitis,
but unfortunately it hasn't had that miraculous effect on everyone.

"Semi-hysterical" is perjorative, and I don't believe acurately
reflects the comments on this and other threads,
Judy

> > I just bought a Grossan Hydro-Pulse, but after reading this I'm going to
> > return it.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> beginning regular Hydropulse irrigation. I'm very grateful to be able to
> purchase such a helpful tool.   AW
Susan - 22 Oct 2006 14:57 GMT
> "Semi-hysterical" is perjorative, and I don't believe acurately
> reflects the comments on this and other threads,

Pejorative is such a neutral word.

"Semi-hysterical" is  misogynistic.

Susan
aroberts - 22 Oct 2006 22:20 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Susan

Only in the strictest etymological sense; in modern and common parlance, it
is gender-neutral.  Unless you continue to refer to the uterus as the
"hystera".
rick@spamgmail.com - 23 Oct 2006 04:35 GMT
>Recently there was a very interesting post about how one person
>actually feels better now that he irrigates less,

Judy,

In case I'm the one with the post you are referring to (or even if I'm
not, just consider this my 2 cents) when it comes to my
discontinuation of the Water Pik irrigator, I want to be clear: I am
not saying that I got *better* by not using it, only that I believe it
didn't have an effect one way or another on me.  

I will say this, however, when you run bleach through it (or is that
vinegar?) it makes a fine Water Pik. ;-)

Rick
judy.n - 23 Oct 2006 12:57 GMT
Rick,
 When I checked, it was your post.
 I've had a very good response to immunotherapy, and I still get
shots: I have a great allergist, who unfortunately is drifting into
semi-retirement, and we've done courses of shots for at least 5
years--starting almost 15 years ago, and periodic retesting and
changing of the serum. At this point, I just keep getting shots, and
the current ones are for mold and dander.
 I just read a NE Journal article--about 6 months old--about a 6 shot
vaccine for ragweed that was clinically effective for the next two
years. Sign me up.
 The last testing--at least 5 years ago--showed that the ragweed no
longer reacted, but clincally, ragweed season is tough for me.
 My allergist treated me for pneumonia when I got the flu a couple of
years ago--he was orginally trained as a family practioner--and
discovered that 1) although my rapid flu was negative, blood testing
confirmed influenza and 2) I have primary immunodeficiency--I'm low on
two subclasses of IgG.
 I take the low grade macrolides: biaxin 250 mg/day--and he supports
that. It was my ENT who started me on it, and continues it.
 Irrigation is helpful, and it gives us some control over our illness,
but I think you can do it too much, and as you said, sometimes if you
back off, you find the clinical benefit wasn't that great.
 Again, I read another NE Journal article about cystic fibrosis
patients inhaling 7 ml of hypertonic saline before their respiratory
treatments, and it was clinically effective at reducing lung
infections.
(Can you tell I'm re-reading them for countinuing ed credit
currently.....)
 My husband gets various electric toothbrushes to try, as he's a
dentist. The early Braun models could not be cleaned and collected foul
debris at their base--based on the green color, probably pseudomonas.
The current model snaps apart and can be easily cleaned. Any medical
device should be periodically re-evaluated for design flaws and
corrected if possible. I know Dr. Grossan must feel like we're
attacking his device: I hope he just sees us as a post-marketing focus
group.
 If we've identified that pseudomans and serratia like dark, wet
spaces, any device for irrigation should be able to be cleaned and
dried. Periodic cleansing is helpful I'm sure, but how often is
questionable. My husband brings home these articles about the biofilms
that grow almost instantly in his dental equipment tubes that carry
water. His system is set up for cleaning with bleach.
 I know we are seeming to beat this subject to death, but I think
we're all just trying to clarify safe ways to irrigate.
Judy

> >Recently there was a very interesting post about how one person
> >actually feels better now that he irrigates less,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Rick
Steven L. - 23 Oct 2006 04:40 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> What we don't know is how to keep pathogens from growing in the narrow,
> dark, wet, tightly coiled tubing between cleanings.

The right answer is to have a coiled tube that can be easily replaced
with a fresh new one, just like we can replace the (interchangeable)
Grossan irrigator tips.  Right now, the tubing seems to be permanently
hardwired into the wand and the irrigator.

And if I cannot clean my irrigator once a week with dilute Clorox (say
I'm on travel for an extended period of time and cannot take it with
me), I will just throw the thing out and buy a new one.

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

ilaboo - 29 Oct 2006 12:31 GMT
i do not have one--but have been involved with cleaning colonoscopes etc.

i use 70% alcohole after rinsing my neti pot

basic principle if you can discard the item do it each time you use it--if
not take the thing apart as far as you can go-- start with simple soap and
water first--principle is to remove as much debri as possible extremely
difficult to disinfect an item if it isd dirty ( disinfect is to remove as
many icroorganisms as possible--bacteria, fungus virus etc) vinegar ( acetic
acid--great for fungus pssdudomonas as is bleach--not sure about peroxide as
mechanical disinfecting)--rinse with distilled water and air dry

to sterilize ( kill all microorganisms so that none are present)that is
another ball game

hth
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> on travel for an extended period of time and cannot take it with me), I
> will just throw the thing out and buy a new one.
judy.n - 29 Oct 2006 14:12 GMT
Could you explain how you use the alcohol to clean your neti pot: I air
dry mine and run it through the dishwasher on "sterilize" about once a
week. I don't clean it with every use.
 Once in a while I'll use a neilmed bottle, and I use vinegar to clean
it after every use. I talked to their rep at a conference this week,
and they sell a holder that allows it to hang and completely
dry--ironically, you can buy the neilmed bottle in major drug store
chains, but the air dry holder needs to be ordered on the internet.
Judy
> i do not have one--but have been involved with cleaning colonoscopes etc.
>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> > Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
> > Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

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