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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / October 2006

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Scared of Surgery???

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Lateralus - 08 Sep 2006 00:53 GMT
Hi all, my doc has recommended surgery and i'm a little scared moderate
mucousal thickening of the maxillary's and ethmoid, Dr. Davidson in San
Diego, CA will be performing the surgery. i was wondering is the
surgery safe? should i continue on antibiotics been on low dose
amoxicilin and tobramycin irrigation? very frustrated have had several
ct's always have the same results? Whitish clear PND is that bad?
Steven L. - 08 Sep 2006 01:43 GMT
> Hi all, my doc has recommended surgery and i'm a little scared moderate
> mucousal thickening of the maxillary's and ethmoid, Dr. Davidson in San
> Diego, CA will be performing the surgery. i was wondering is the
> surgery safe? should i continue on antibiotics been on low dose
> amoxicilin and tobramycin irrigation? very frustrated have had several
> ct's always have the same results? Whitish clear PND is that bad?

Before doing any surgery, you should always get a second opinion.

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Lateralus - 08 Sep 2006 02:18 GMT
> > Hi all, my doc has recommended surgery and i'm a little scared moderate
> > mucousal thickening of the maxillary's and ethmoid, Dr. Davidson in San
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Steven D. Litvintchouk
> Email:  sdlitvin@earthlink.net

I have had two opinions, but i kinda feel like we haven't exhausted all
of the treatments that are discussed in this newsgroup as well as
treatments that the ENT'S know about. I mean i have never had an
endoscopic culture done to find out what bug is even causing my
problems?????
travmmann - 08 Sep 2006 04:09 GMT
Listen to Steven-get a SECOND OPINION.I have just been to a second ENT and
he said there were things charged for on my operation theatre notes that he
did NOT do!He discovered thjis when he did a nasendoscope!
Don't be scared of the surgery.I was so good the next day I felt as if I
could have gone to work!!

Kindest personal regards,
Ray The Travellin' Man.....Ray Armstrong your eyes and ears on the Tweed!!
Let's Keep Music Liiiiiiiiiiiive!!!!!!!

> > > Hi all, my doc has recommended surgery and i'm a little scared moderate
> > > mucousal thickening of the maxillary's and ethmoid, Dr. Davidson in San
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> endoscopic culture done to find out what bug is even causing my
> problems?????
Lateralus - 08 Sep 2006 06:04 GMT
What do you mean charged for, and nasendoscope???

> Listen to Steven-get a SECOND OPINION.I have just been to a second ENT and
> he said there were things charged for on my operation theatre notes that he
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> > endoscopic culture done to find out what bug is even causing my
> > problems?????
rick@spamgmail.com - 08 Sep 2006 05:22 GMT
>> > Hi all, my doc has recommended surgery and i'm a little scared moderate
>> > mucousal thickening of the maxillary's and ethmoid, Dr. Davidson in San
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>endoscopic culture done to find out what bug is even causing my
>problems?????

You got a second opinion, but did you get a second course of
treatment?  Heavy duty antibiotics (Levaquin), 30 days, with steroids
and major decongestant and the 2nd CT scan showed nothing operable.
Didn't get that from the first doc.  The 2nd doc did reccommend
allergy shots.  So I went and I'm feeling better. The 1st doc (when I
mentioned surgery) said that allergy shots weren't going to help for
the 1st 18 months at least.  

If you don't think you've exhausted every possible treatment, and the
first 2 won't help, go to a 3rd, or a 4th.
judy.n - 08 Sep 2006 13:50 GMT
You can't undo surgery. Personally, what has been bothering me about
surgery is the wide variation of approaches, which seem
idiosyncratic---my daughter has a tight spot, due to a concha bullosa
turbinate that tends to block her fronal sinus on the left. She also
has an immune deficiency: IgA.
She's had recurrent left frontal sinusitis episodes. She's seen three
ENT's: our local ENT now believes that "less is more" and would do a
minimal surgery to relieve the obstruction, 2) one elderly ENT at Lahey
Clinci had no suggestions, and 3) Dr. Peter Catalano wanted to use the
ballon--which our local ENT still feels it over-utilized by the people
who use it and doesn't have a long enought track record to know that
the effects of widening the frontal sinus openning by crushing the
underlying ethmoids cells will do to you years later.
 So, three doctors, three opinions and any surgery changes your
anatomy permanently.
 Now, I've had 5 surgeries: three to primariy address sinusitis and
two to deal with the bone infection caused by number three--the only
one done by a national expert, at a tertiary care "center of
excellence".
 My daughter is holding out on her decision at this point--although
she gets mild sinus infections about every couple of months: she's
getting allergy shots with good results, is irrigating regulary, moved
to a less toxic environment, and takes low dose biaxin. She'll probably
benefit from surgery ultimately--but with which physician? I vote the
local ENT.
 I just think some super specialists become known for certain
procedures, and they tend to apply them to most patients.
 I agree, get second opinions. When a doctor walks into the room,
tells you they recommend surgery,  and they're booking six months out,
and you're lucky to get on the schedule--it feels pressured and scary,
and not considered. That's how my daughter felt.
 Judy

> >> > Hi all, my doc has recommended surgery and i'm a little scared moderate
> >> > mucousal thickening of the maxillary's and ethmoid, Dr. Davidson in San
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> If you don't think you've exhausted every possible treatment, and the
> first 2 won't help, go to a 3rd, or a 4th.
ilaboo - 28 Sep 2006 12:42 GMT
there is a very real danger from going to various doctors--you ,ight be
looking for someone to tell you what you really want to hear--and that might
not be what needs to be done
you ight want to go to a medial school clinic and have your condition
evalusated--also do some good homework on it--search teh medical
literaturde--not waht someone tells you what happend to them--( it is
helpful however)

hth

peter

>>> > Hi all, my doc has recommended surgery and i'm a little scared
>>> > moderate
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> If you don't think you've exhausted every possible treatment, and the
> first 2 won't help, go to a 3rd, or a 4th.
ilaboo - 26 Oct 2006 17:44 GMT
s noted befor do a lot of homedwork on this
Steven L. - 09 Sep 2006 06:06 GMT
>>> Hi all, my doc has recommended surgery and i'm a little scared moderate
>>> mucousal thickening of the maxillary's and ethmoid, Dr. Davidson in San
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> endoscopic culture done to find out what bug is even causing my
> problems?????

Well, here are some other things to try before surgery:

Avelox antibiotic, daily for a whole month.  Avelox has great coverage.
If Avelox doesn't get the bugs, then your infection is something rather
exotic.

An endoscopic culture is a good idea, but don't get your hopes up.  You
may only have one badly infected sinus cavity.  And since the endoscopic
culture typically only samples from one sinus duct, whether that is the
infected one is a matter of luck.  My cultures have often turned up
nothing, suggesting the pocket of infection is somewhere else than where
my doctor took the culture from.

For the kind of mild symptoms you're talking about, allergies and
chemical sensitivities should be investigated.  San Diego is not a
heavily polluted area, but you might check out your own neighborhood at
www.scorecard.org
to see if your neighborhood is unusually polluted.

I have *NOT* found allergy tests to be particularly helpful.  All they
told me was that I'm not allergic to the six strains of molds they test
for.  Which leaves about 200 other strains of mold they don't test for.
 Better to just try a course of antihistamines and see if they help.

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

rick@spamgmail.com - 09 Sep 2006 21:33 GMT
>>>> Hi all, my doc has recommended surgery and i'm a little scared moderate
>>>> mucousal thickening of the maxillary's and ethmoid, Dr. Davidson in San
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>for.  Which leaves about 200 other strains of mold they don't test for.
>  Better to just try a course of antihistamines and see if they help.

Maybe not in your case, but in my case they appear to help.
Antihistimines might help (I still take them), so sure, give them a
try.  But I'd hate for him to rule out taking a *shot* at allergy
testing shots.  Beats an unnecessary surgery, don't you think?
ilaboo - 26 Oct 2006 17:42 GMT
extremely diffficult to get pure sample of pus from a sinuis--basic problem
sinus is not draining ( assuming no serious pathology is present like
canceer) and something must be done to let it drain

hth

>> > Hi all, my doc has recommended surgery and i'm a little scared moderate
>> > mucousal thickening of the maxillary's and ethmoid, Dr. Davidson in San
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> endoscopic culture done to find out what bug is even causing my
> problems?????
ilaboo - 26 Oct 2006 17:40 GMT
second opinion--as a surgical physician over 30 years experience i am not
convienced that a second opion is safe
exaple one says yes do surgery other says no--now what/--really best answer
is to do a lot of homework so you yourself is knowledgeable--have to be
really honest withyour self--if considering surgery then do hiomework on
that if you want to do acupuncture then do homework on that--become informed
if you heard a scary sound in your car and planning to go accross country or
drive to north pole and you think maybe you should have the car checked--one
mechanic says nothing is the matter--other says remove engine/trransmission
or maybe buy another car

now what do you do
second opions are not that removed from this example

hth
peter
>> Hi all, my doc has recommended surgery and i'm a little scared moderate
>> mucousal thickening of the maxillary's and ethmoid, Dr. Davidson in San
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Before doing any surgery, you should always get a second opinion.
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 08 Sep 2006 17:31 GMT
mwgoldie67@cox.net (Lateralus)
>Hi all, my doc has recommended surgery and
> i'm a little scared moderate mucousal
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> ct's always have the same results? Whitish
> clear PND is that bad?

The ENT I had (7 years ago), wanted to book me in for immediate surgery
on my ethmoids.
..I hesitated, and shortly thereafter, started on (Dr. Grossan's)
irrigation system in conjunction with a flonase regimen.  Since then, I
have used antibiotics, maybe twice for a few major flare-ups. ....And,
although I still get the odd flare-up from time to time (usually
self-inflicted, from blowing my nose a little too hard), I have been
able to flush them all out via irrigation -- without having to resort to
using antibiotics. ...In fact, I haven't needed antibiotics for probably
4 years now.
..I firmly believe, the body will do whatever it can to repair itself.
I'm not totally against surgery, but it seems in a lot of cases, one
surgery is never enough. ...And very few end up completely cured-- even
after a multitude of surgeries.

I would suggest you leave the surgery option as the extreme last resort,
and do whatever you can to help your body help itself. ...It might take
a bit of ongoing work, as consider: I have been irrigating steady now
for the past 7 years, but overall, I would say, my sinuses are 90%
better than what they were.  ...Or at least I feel 90% better than what
I did.   Good Luck....   Jon
rick@spamgmail.com - 09 Sep 2006 04:55 GMT
>mwgoldie67@cox.net (Lateralus)
>>Hi all, my doc has recommended surgery and
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>better than what they were.  ...Or at least I feel 90% better than what
>I did.   Good Luck....   Jon

I'd like to add that I had surgery to correct my deviated septum in
1995.  I say *to correct* rather than *that corrected* because the
first CT scan done last year since that surgery showed that it was
still deviated.  That shot up a huge warning sign when Doc #1 (who did
the 1995 surgery) recommended surgery on my ethmoids.  I switched to
Doc #2 (who said I didn't need surgery if I could breathe well enough
- which I could and did) and you can see in my case it was all about
the doctor.  I guess some doctors look at abnormalities and figure
they'll correct the problem by surgery.  Didn't work in my case.

Be wary of doctors (at least for sinusitis) who do surgery by films,
and don't take the patient into account.
travmmann - 09 Sep 2006 06:30 GMT
Virtually EVERBODY has a deviated septum....if it is not interefering with
your breathing or causing infections don't worry about it!It is like a visit
to a Chiropractor...you know he is going to say..."Are you aware you have
one leg longer than the other?" I pre-empted my Chiropractor when he opened
up with "Do you know....." I finsished the sentence for him!!

--

Kindest personal regards,
Ray The Travellin' Man.....Ray Armstrong your eyes and ears on the Tweed!!
Let's Keep Music Liiiiiiiiiiiive!!!!!!!

> >mwgoldie67@cox.net (Lateralus)
> >>Hi all, my doc has recommended surgery and
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> Be wary of doctors (at least for sinusitis) who do surgery by films,
> and don't take the patient into account.
Billy Boy - 09 Sep 2006 19:33 GMT
And, you should be sacred of surgery. Any surgery is dangerous. Hospitals are dangerous.
Make both your very last option.

Just irrigating isn't sufficient. What you use for irrigation and how you do it is the
key.

For years I had sinus infections every three or so months. Continually on antibiotics to
clear them up. I recently changed to irrigation like this.

Twice a day, morning and evening.
Use warm tap water, preferable distilled water but in my case too much trouble and the tap
water is working fine just now. If it begins to fail, I will go to distilled water.

Use Kosher salt only. Morton makes it and for sale at most large grocery stores.

Pinch of baking soda.

Small splash of hydrogen peroxide.

Mix in small container, pour small amount in palm of hand and sniff up one nostril while
leaning over the sink with head down as much as possible. Sniff up several times after
using the mixture. Then blow gently but firmly out that nostril.

Then do other nostril.

Makes a major difference in my life.

There is another area very few posters write about and that is the gut/health/brain/
condition. There is loads of history/research about the intestinal flora problems causing
a multitudes of problems. Google intestinal flora and read for yourself. Have you after a
meal had a sudden onset of excess mucus in your sinuses, had to clear your throat
repeatedly, etc. etc. What you eat has a tremendous effect on your
health/brain/sinus/immune system etc. etc.

One book I'm reading over and over again and believing more and more is "Breaking the
Vicious Cycle" by Elaine Gottschall.

I wish I had the ability to write coherently what the book says.  And I know that most
people especially doctors are going to poo poo this and say what you eat has nothing to do
with the things I have mentioned.

But, just use a little common sense and think this through yourself.

In your intestinal track there is a delicate balance of bacteria. The good and the bad. As
long as there is this balance, everything is okay but if for reason of diet, medications,
virus or anything else, the balance is altered it can effect your entire body's health.

Think back to when you were given a large and long treatment of antibiotics. Did you have
rashes or diarrhea or other problems. When you spoke to your doctor the common answer is
"It will pass" or the more intelligent will say eat lots of yogurt. Yogurt is a good
source of good biotics or probiotics. Google probiotics.

Now, research has even shown a connection between autism and the intestinal flora balance
or probiotics. Google this. the test was done in Scotland.

Anyway, I got to go but you owe it to yourself to research this completely and see how a
bad intestinal flora could effect your sinuses badly.

Good luck.

Bill

>Hi all, my doc has recommended surgery and i'm a little scared moderate
>mucousal thickening of the maxillary's and ethmoid, Dr. Davidson in San
>Diego, CA will be performing the surgery. i was wondering is the
>surgery safe? should i continue on antibiotics been on low dose
>amoxicilin and tobramycin irrigation? very frustrated have had several
>ct's always have the same results? Whitish clear PND is that bad?

Billy Boy

To reply correct [at] and [dot]
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 10 Sep 2006 07:06 GMT
billyboy[at]comcast[dot]net (Billy Boy) wrote:
>Small splash of hydrogen peroxide.

I think I would bypass the peroxide.  Although, I have used it a few
times in my irrigation mixture -- and it has helped my condition... The
short-term effects brought about by the irritation it causes to the
nasal tissue, can actually aggravate the condition.   ...Sort of like
putting alcohol on a cut. It initially sterilizes the wound -- which is
good, but over use it, and your tissue will either be burnt or become
inflamed.

I have used the H²O² when my sinuses don't feel too bad. This
ensures the passages are open to help deliver the peroxide directly to
the site of infection. ...Within a short time (after using it) however,
my sinuses actually feel like they are plugged. Which they probably are,
because the peroxide undoubtedly causes a swelling within from the
irritation.
So long term, I benefit, but short term, I suffer.  
I would suggest by using it steady, and especially in such small
amounts, the antiseptic properties basically become negligable, but the
irritation qualities are always there, hindering the drainage through
the small sinus ducts.   ...Jon
Billy Boy - 10 Sep 2006 15:01 GMT
I think a 'small splash' is so small to be insignificant.

Of course 'small splash' may mean something different to you.

>billyboy[at]comcast[dot]net (Billy Boy) wrote:
>>Small splash of hydrogen peroxide.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>irritation qualities are always there, hindering the drainage through
>the small sinus ducts.   ...Jon

Billy Boy

To reply correct [at] and [dot]
Johnny1000@webtv.net - 10 Sep 2006 16:42 GMT
billyboy[at]comcast[dot]net (Billy Boy) wrote:
>I think a 'small splash' is so small to be
> insignificant.
>
>Of course 'small splash' may mean something
> different to you.

People afflicted with a chronic condition like sinusitis, will jump at
anything or any idea to help alleviate their suffering, especially when
they find the medical community has hit a dead end.

If your "small splash" is so insignificant, then why use it at all?
..All I'm saying is by posting this, you may be encouraging others to
follow a similar route... IE: throw in a little bit of everything...
It would be like taking a very small amount of antibiotic over a long
period of time, as opposed taking the prescribed amount in sufficient
quantity designed to initially wipe out the bug.   ... Jon
ilaboo - 26 Oct 2006 17:49 GMT
when hydrogen peroxide reacts with tissue it gives of bubbles there bubbles
are exerting forces measurded in hundrdens of tons of pressure--repeat
hundrdeds of tons of presssudre--think about some ot it making its way into
a sinus and then expanding--
billyboy[at]comcast[dot]net (Billy Boy) wrote:
>I think a 'small splash' is so small to be
> insignificant.
>
>Of course 'small splash' may mean something
> different to you.

People afflicted with a chronic condition like sinusitis, will jump at
anything or any idea to help alleviate their suffering, especially when
they find the medical community has hit a dead end.

If your "small splash" is so insignificant, then why use it at all?
..All I'm saying is by posting this, you may be encouraging others to
follow a similar route... IE: throw in a little bit of everything...
It would be like taking a very small amount of antibiotic over a long
period of time, as opposed taking the prescribed amount in sufficient
quantity designed to initially wipe out the bug.   ... Jon
 
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