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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / September 2006

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Hydromed warranty service problems

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Susan - 03 Sep 2006 16:05 GMT
About a year ago, my sister bought a pulsatile irrigator on my
recommendation, for her heavy PND.  Within a week or two, it died, and
after the warranty rep asked her if she'd been cleaning and maintaining
it properly (how much maintenance does it need in a week?), agreed to
ship her a new one immediately, I believe, so she wouldn't be without
one, and my sister returned the dead unit.  The new unit broke recently,
at about the one year off warranty mark; it had water squirting out the
top of the handle.  My sister's warranty experience was not so good this
time.

She was told she had to ship the broken unit back, and they'd then send
it (or a replacement, I think) back reconditioned for a fee.  She was
also told by the rep to use just a kosher salt hypertonic solution; no
inclusion of baking soda, etc.  This doesn't square with what Murray
usually recommends, does it?

My sister just received a replacement irrigator; it wasn't hers, it was
a used or reconditioned one and it was filthy, every inch of it.  She
(being a germophobic clean freak who returned a sparkling machine, I'm
sure) cleaned it up with a lot of vinegar (which I wouldn't have, Id've
demanded they take it back) imagining stuff growing inside the tubing)
and used it.  I wish she'd left all the dirt on it and made them
reimburse her for both ways shipping.

There was a very sharp drop in the quality of phone advice and service
for this second warranty/service problem, and the shipping of a filthy
device to a customer shows complete disregard for the customer or any
kind of attention to quality assurance by the manufacturer. Frankly,
when the same customer has a not inexpensive device die twice in one
year, I'd not require she pay shipping or take a refurb, I'd reward her
loyalty with a new replacement.

When my Hydropulse dies, I will not be buying another one until I hear
such policies and poor QA issues have been addressed and resolved.

Susan
Steven L. - 04 Sep 2006 02:41 GMT
> My sister just received a replacement irrigator; it wasn't hers, it was
> a used or reconditioned one and it was filthy, every inch of it.  

I'm shocked that any company would ship a used medical device; at least
one that hadn't been thoroughly sterilized first.  (And proper
sterilization would be difficult, given the cheap plastic that the
HydroPulse is made out of)

I think she could threaten legal action if she isn't furnished with a
new unit.  That's the sort of thing I would talk to a lawyer about.

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judy.n - 04 Sep 2006 13:36 GMT
For a $90 item? The price of the legal consult is more than the device.
I'd try Better Business Bureau, the company again and possibly the
department of health in the state where it was shipped.
 Of course, on this forum, where Dr. Grossan frequently checks in,
perhaps he'll stand by his product, or at least have an effective
solution to this problem.
 $90 buys a lot of neti pots/neilmed bottles...
Judy

> > My sister just received a replacement irrigator; it wasn't hers, it was
> > a used or reconditioned one and it was filthy, every inch of it.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
> Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
Susan - 04 Sep 2006 15:36 GMT
> For a $90 item? The price of the legal consult is more than the device.
> I'd try Better Business Bureau, the company again and possibly the
> department of health in the state where it was shipped.

I think going to outside agencies before complaining to the company is
unfair.  OTOH, she cleaned it and used it (to my horror!).  I still
think she should make them take it back and give her a new one.  Two
failures and a dirty machine in one short year is beyond reasonable.

>   Of course, on this forum, where Dr. Grossan frequently checks in,
> perhaps he'll stand by his product, or at least have an effective
> solution to this problem.
>   $90 buys a lot of neti pots/neilmed bottles...

I didn't get good results with the NeilMed bottle, but will definitely
buy a neti pot; if it works, it'd be much more convenient and a lot
easier to travel with, too.

Susan
Steven L. - 04 Sep 2006 23:29 GMT
> For a $90 item? The price of the legal consult is more than the device.
> I'd try Better Business Bureau, the company again and possibly the
> department of health in the state where it was shipped.

The reason I didn't mention BBB is that if the company is not already a
member of the BBB, then the BBB isn't likely to do much based only on a
single consumer complaint.

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Susan - 04 Sep 2006 23:40 GMT
> The reason I didn't mention BBB is that if the company is not already a
> member of the BBB, then the BBB isn't likely to do much based only on a
> single consumer complaint.

Actually, if the company is not a member, the BBB will still try, but
the company has not signed an agreement to abide by the process.  Still,
the BBB will make the complaint public on its web site and to callers.

My sister hasn't called yet to describe the deplorable condition of the
unit she recieved, so it would be unfair to report to a third party.  I
think companies have the right to a chance to make things right, or to
prove they're no good, before such a complaint is made.

Susan
MS - 05 Sep 2006 02:12 GMT
>  $90 buys a lot of neti pots/neilmed bottles...
> Judy

....or 2 or 3 Waterpiks, or three Interplak irrigators, both with two year
warranties.
Susan - 04 Sep 2006 15:34 GMT
> I'm shocked that any company would ship a used medical device; at least
> one that hadn't been thoroughly sterilized first.  (And proper
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I think she could threaten legal action if she isn't furnished with a
> new unit.  That's the sort of thing I would talk to a lawyer about.

Her husband *is* a lawyer, but I think that's kind of over the top,
Steven.

I'm not shocked that they'd ship a refurb; I'd expect a refurb to be
sterilized and have new coiled tubing, however.  She said when she
opened the back panel where the cord was stored, that was filthy, too.

Susan
judy.n - 04 Sep 2006 22:22 GMT
Susan,
 I agree. The customer service department should have made it "right".
When a company supports their product and gives excellent customer
service, it makes you loyal. When they ship you a biohazard, it does
border on criminal--who knows what infectious disease was in that
tubing?
 My daughter was constantly ill when she played saxophone. Our local
paper just profiled a dentist who is sterilizing wind instruments that
get re-rented. He found that staph/strep/TB were present in a wind
instrument up to 3-6 months after innoculating them. He sterilizes them
utilizing a gas method. (My husband, who is a dentist, tells me that's
how they sterilize tools that don't fit into the autoclave.)
 I would expect a new product, or at least a sterile one.
Judy
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan - 04 Sep 2006 22:28 GMT
> Susan,
>   I agree. The customer service department should have made it "right".
> When a company supports their product and gives excellent customer
> service, it makes you loyal. When they ship you a biohazard, it does
> border on criminal--who knows what infectious disease was in that
> tubing?

I'm horrified that my sister used it, though knowing her, it was clean
as a whistle before then.  Still, you're absolutely right, my fear is
that that awful tubing that can't be removed and replaced is harboring
stuff from sitting wet and dirty for who knows how long?

>   My daughter was constantly ill when she played saxophone. Our local
> paper just profiled a dentist who is sterilizing wind instruments that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> how they sterilize tools that don't fit into the autoclave.)
>   I would expect a new product, or at least a sterile one.

I guess we avoided that by buying the instruments and upgrading with our
own high end mouthpieces. Still, MONTHS????  Yipes.

Susan
Steven L. - 04 Sep 2006 23:38 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I guess we avoided that by buying the instruments and upgrading with our
> own high end mouthpieces. Still, MONTHS????  Yipes.

I believe that under the right conditions, tuberculosis bugs can form
long-lasting spores.  If you remember after the anthrax scare in October
2001, buildings infested with anthrax spores remained uninhabitable
indefinitely until they were thoroughly decontaminated.  The Senate
Office Building had to be completely fumigated with chlorine dioxide
gas.  AFAIK, the building in Florida where the first victim died of
anthrax, was so heavily infested with anthrax spores that it was
condemned by the EPA.

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Susan - 05 Sep 2006 00:59 GMT
> I believe that under the right conditions, tuberculosis bugs can form
> long-lasting spores.  If you remember after the anthrax scare in October
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> anthrax, was so heavily infested with anthrax spores that it was
> condemned by the EPA.

I guess it's just dumb luck that the saxophones we bought had no
anthrax, and the pricey mouthpieces were brand new!

Prions, spores, it's a Big Scary World out there, but ticks scare me the
most.

Susan
judy.n - 05 Sep 2006 01:21 GMT
Susan,
 She had a new high end sax and I periodically swiped the mouthpiece
with alcohol and soaked the reeds in peroxide and/or replaced them.
But, she had these plumes she put in to absorb the moisture, and there
was no stated way to clean them. Plus, as a sax, she sat in front of
the trombones and trumpets, who emptied their spit valves onto her.
 After she graduated high school, it's sat in corner and she's playing
the piano instead, and is much healthier.
Judy
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan - 05 Sep 2006 01:39 GMT
> Susan,
>   She had a new high end sax and I periodically swiped the mouthpiece
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>   After she graduated high school, it's sat in corner and she's playing
> the piano instead, and is much healthier.

My kid never cleaned a mouthpiece that I'm aware of, just licked 'em.
Got through it with very few illnesses, though during the Lyme years,
there were 6-8 strep infections per year, some while taking zithromax.

Isn't it more likely that the immune deficiencies you've mentioned are
responsible for excessive infections?

Susan
judy.n - 05 Sep 2006 12:43 GMT
Susan,
 This is my younger daughter, who doesn't have immune deficiencies:
she was tested. She did have recurrent strep infections: and had her
tonsils out in 2004--and subsequently had a post-op episode of status
migrainous, which has taken a couple of years to really get under
control.(She developed migraine associated vertigo that was
intractable: but only missed school when she was in the hospital.) I
did read an article about how the valsalva maneuver (baring down, while
holding your breath) increases intracranial pressure and can trigger
migraines. Also, the noise level in the jazz band room couldn't have
helped. She's a great musician: her final act in jazz band was to solo
a Theolonius Monk piece "Round Midnight" and her tone is great. But,
she likes singing (she's always all-state, with no preparation) and
piano more. Also, she found the jazz environment not too receptive to
girls/women.
 She's currently doing these insane auditions to try and get into an
acapella group at her college right now.
 Seriously, she graduated in June. Stopped the sax, and it made a huge
difference in her health.
 So when I saw the article about the lingering bacteria in wind
instruments, I was interested. Her best teacher was also a high school
band teacher, and he is always sick, and has had two sinus surgeries.
Judy
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan - 05 Sep 2006 14:12 GMT
> Susan,
>   This is my younger daughter, who doesn't have immune deficiencies:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> instruments, I was interested. Her best teacher was also a high school
> band teacher, and he is always sick, and has had two sinus surgeries.

Interesting, and certainly within the realm of possibility, what isn't?

My child became healthier during the band/jazz band years, after
curative treatment for TBDs of 3 1/2 years at age 11 1/2.  The band and
the teachers were healthy, but who knows what was in the air circulation
system?  No one seems to clean these to protect humans, only companies
with a lot of expensive electronics maintain them well.  :-/

Susan
MS - 05 Sep 2006 02:55 GMT
> But, she had these plumes she put in to absorb the moisture, and there
> was no stated way to clean them.

Yes, I don't like those things, they prevent the instrument from airing out.
Better to dry it with a swab, and let it further air dry.

>  After she graduated high school, it's sat in corner and she's playing
> the piano instead, and is much healthier.

Somehow, I doubt contamination by playing the sax created her health
problems. I never heard of a higher incidence of illness among wind players
than of others. Possibly, if she already had a breathing problem, the air
pressure was hard on her. (Although one could make a case that that
strengthens the lungs.) More than likely a coincidence.
MS - 05 Sep 2006 02:12 GMT
>  My daughter was constantly ill when she played saxophone. Our local
> paper just profiled a dentist who is sterilizing wind instruments that
> get re-rented. He found that staph/strep/TB were present in a wind
> instrument up to 3-6 months after innoculating them. He sterilizes them
> utilizing a gas method. (My husband, who is a dentist, tells me that's
> how they sterilize tools that don't fit into the autoclave.)

The only part of the saxophone that goes in your mouth is the mouthpiece and
reed. As one does not re-use other's reeds, the only thing that needs to be
sterilized is the mouthpiece. That's usually done with a sterilizing spray.
I think also they are sometimes soaked, for instance in antibacterial soap
and water, and rinsed. Shouldn't the latter work to sterilize a mouthpiece?
Steven L. - 04 Sep 2006 23:34 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Her husband *is* a lawyer, but I think that's kind of over the top, Steven.

Not after she used it.  That's the key point.  She exposed her body to
germs from an unsterilized used medical device.  My horror at that is
NOT "over the top."

If you inject yourself with a hypodermic, and later find out that it
wasn't either new or sterilized, that's FAR more serious than the mere
cost of the hypo syringe.  People have gotten AIDS and hepatitis that way.

> I'm not shocked that they'd ship a refurb; I'd expect a refurb to be
> sterilized and have new coiled tubing, however.  She said when she
> opened the back panel where the cord was stored, that was filthy, too.

Like I said, I'm not sure that the cheap plastic of this machine, with
all its many nooks and crannies and inside machinery, can stand up to
thorough sterilization.  But that's something for Dr. Grossan to answer.

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MS - 05 Sep 2006 02:12 GMT
> Like I said, I'm not sure that the cheap plastic of this machine, with all
> its many nooks and crannies and inside machinery, can stand up to thorough
> sterilization.  But that's something for Dr. Grossan to answer.

Well, anyone notice which frequent poster to this NG has not replied to this
thread? Conspicuous absence?
Susan - 05 Sep 2006 02:33 GMT
> Well, anyone notice which frequent poster to this NG has not replied to this
> thread? Conspicuous absence?

Not really.  Probably taking a holiday weekend away.

Susan
Steven L. - 05 Sep 2006 03:17 GMT
>> Like I said, I'm not sure that the cheap plastic of this machine, with all
>> its many nooks and crannies and inside machinery, can stand up to thorough
>> sterilization.  But that's something for Dr. Grossan to answer.
>
> Well, anyone notice which frequent poster to this NG has not replied to this
> thread?

Don Brady?  :-)

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MS - 05 Sep 2006 02:12 GMT
Waterpik, on the contrary, has great customer support, really above average.
For one thing, two year warranty. Then, if you call with a problem, they ask
for the serial number, if it's running at all they might ask to hear it over
the phone, and they send you a new one, without even having to send the old
one in.

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Susan
 
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