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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / April 2007

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Macrolides as anti-inflammatory?

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MS - 14 Aug 2006 02:08 GMT
http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/15586560

Interesting article. I remember reading a similar one some months ago,
except that that one was more specifically about the long-term use of
azithromycin in cystic fibrosis, also for its anti-inflammatory properties.
(I think I posted the URL here, also on Medscape.)

Has anyone here been prescribed a macrolide for such a purpose (not
referring to short-term use for an infection), or has anyone prescribed it
to patients? Results?

I imagine that the antibiotic effect would be lost with long-term use, due
to resistance. But the purpose described relates to lessening inflammation
of the airways. Anyone familiar with this?
Susan - 14 Aug 2006 02:32 GMT
> http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/15586560
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> to resistance. But the purpose described relates to lessening inflammation
> of the airways. Anyone familiar with this?

You might want to google it up, Judy posted publication(s) about this a
short time ago, and discussed it here. I believe she discussed it
earlier today, too, on this group.

Susan
MS - 14 Aug 2006 03:04 GMT
Some more articles on the subject:

http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/16358922

http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/15586558

http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/16153572

http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/11817673

http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/15203552

http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/14712113

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/452676 (scroll down a ways)

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/417559_5

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/503819_3  (I think this is the one I
mentioned, that I read months ago.)
Murray Grossan - 14 Aug 2006 05:30 GMT
On 8/13/06 6:08 PM, in article E2QDg.69169$MW.59425@trnddc04, "MS"
<ms@nospam.com> wrote:

> http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/15586560
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> to resistance. But the purpose described relates to lessening inflammation
> of the airways. Anyone familiar with this?

Based on the evidence, using macrolides for anti-inflammatory effect makes
good sense. I have used it but always in conjunction with pulsatile
irrigation which supports this action plus proteolytic enzymes to further
reduce swelling.
MS - 14 Aug 2006 06:42 GMT
> Based on the evidence, using macrolides for anti-inflammatory effect makes
> good sense. I have used it but always in conjunction with pulsatile
> irrigation which supports this action plus proteolytic enzymes to further
> reduce swelling.

There seems to be a lot of info on this. (See articles in my second post.)
Do most ENTs and allergists know about this? I recall asking a couple
before, and they didn't know about it, said long-term abx use isn't good,
etc. (Many docs seem hesitant about antibiotics these days, probably a
reaction to their overuse in prior eras, the growth of antibiotic
resistance, etc.)

Any readers here undergoing such treatment?
aroberts - 14 Aug 2006 07:02 GMT
>> Based on the evidence, using macrolides for anti-inflammatory effect
>> makes
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Any readers here undergoing such treatment?

Yes, both my pulmonologist and ENT told me about the anti-inflammatory
action/immune modulation of macrolides over two years ago, and have
prescribed Clarithromycin (Biaxin) during exacerbations of asthma/sinusitis.
It works well, and I have yet to experience abx "fatigue".  My ENT is
Chairman of Otorhinolarynology at Loyola Medical School, and my pulmo was a
professor there before entering private practice. Like you,  I doubt that
most ENTs, etc. are up to date on this.
MS - 14 Aug 2006 07:29 GMT
> Yes, both my pulmonologist and ENT told me about the anti-inflammatory
> action/immune modulation of macrolides over two years ago, and have
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> School, and my pulmo was a professor there before entering private
> practice. Like you,  I doubt that most ENTs, etc. are up to date on this.

What dosage of Biaxin? You don't take it regularly, but only during
exacerbations?
judy.n - 14 Aug 2006 13:53 GMT
I have been on low dose macrolides ever since I stumbled across Anders
Cervin's article in 2002. There are many articles in the literature,
and a very good summary in Chest that I have previously posted.
 There was a recent double blinded study by Cervin et al, and it
showed benefit, but you need to select the patients carefully:
ironically those with low  IbE levels tend to respond best.
 Although Cervin's original article only used the macrolides for a
year, by ENT and I decided to use it as long as it has remained
effective, and the results of biaxin 250 mg/day have been superb.
 The literature has articles on erythromycin, biaxin, roxithromycin
(not in US). In cystic fibrosis, they use pulses of azithromycin with
excellent results to try and prevent intractable pseudomonas.
Macrolides have been used in panbronchiolitis in Japan for years.
 My ENT attends national meetings and brings up the subject regularly
to nationally reguarded ENT's and finds universal ignorance of the
subject. I brought it up to a doctor at Lahey Clinic, and he was much
more interested in surgery with the sinus balloon, and stated that
macrolides have been "disappointing".
 My ENT is planning a grand rounds at the major teaching hospital at
Brown to bring the community up to speed. I've sent him most of the
articles I keep on my computer.
 He started using zithromax at 250mg once or twice a week, for
compliance, and has about 10 patients on it with good results.
 I've used biaxin 250 mg/day since 2002 with dramatic results. My
older daughter started it this year when we discovered an IgA
deficiency and she had an intractable sinusitis: it's also an excellent
drug for her asthma. My younger daughter who had a very rough time with
migraine disease and migraine associated vertigo and had a persistant
sinusitis (no immune deficiency in her workup) could only take
zithromax due to drug interactions, and she's been on it for two months
with good results. Per the recent comment posted by Dr. Ferguson (in
response to an article on irrigation) from Pittsburgh, patients with
chronic sinusitis have a higher percentage of a gene mutation similar
to cystic fibrosis and I'm sure that's what's behind the strong family
history of sinusitis in my family (my sisters have sinus issues as
well.)
 I have an IgG subtype deficiency, and my allergist sent a similar
patient to Boston for eval, and low dose macrolides were recommended.
 I do get some push-back from my internist, she's worried about
resistance. The Chest article has stated that resistance has not been a
major issue. I've heard that there are drugs in the pipeline where they
have the anti-inflammatory component, but no anti-microbial activity.
Ironically, we put patients with acne or rosacea on macrolides for
years without fretting about resistance.
 My husband is a dentist and they've used very low dose doxycycline:
20 mg twice a day, for years for gum disease. Recently 40 mg
doxycycline was just approved for rosacea.
 So, in summary: I've had sinus disease for decades, had 5 surgeries,
have a primary immunodeficiency and allergies--although I DO have low
IgE levels--and 4 years of low dose biaxin has been clinically
wonderful for me. I met the initial criteria of patients who failed
surgery and have low IgE levels. I take it every day.
 It's like you don't want to draw the evil eye, but prior to biaxin I
had either a constant infection or at least 6/year. My last infection
was over a year ago. There have been studies done in Japan on patients
on macrolides and they get less colds, due to the mechanism of not
allowing adherence, so I think that's helped a lot as well as I work in
medicine and get coughed on a lot.
Judy

> > Yes, both my pulmonologist and ENT told me about the anti-inflammatory
> > action/immune modulation of macrolides over two years ago, and have
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> What dosage of Biaxin? You don't take it regularly, but only during
> exacerbations?
Murray Grossan - 14 Aug 2006 16:29 GMT
On 8/14/06 5:53 AM, in article
1155559981.415590.298390@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, "judy.n"

> I have been on low dose macrolides ever since I stumbled across Anders
> Cervin's article in 2002. There are many articles in the literature,
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
>> What dosage of Biaxin? You don't take it regularly, but only during
>> exacerbations?

Obviously at this point in time we don't really know how much
anti-inflammatory is the cure and how much the bug killer is a cure, so I
hedge my bets by using proteolytic enzyme in addition to the macrolide and
add the cilia stimulators including tea, pulsatile irrigation.
As Judy has pointed out, low doses of drugs have been used for years for
acne and periodontal disease.

By the way, one of the most common causes of sinus disease is dental disease
that is often overlooked. Even in a Beverly Hills practice, we see this
regularly.
MS - 14 Aug 2006 17:28 GMT
> By the way, one of the most common causes of sinus disease is dental
> disease
> that is often overlooked. Even in a Beverly Hills practice, we see this
> regularly.

I have a lot of dental problems. (Just had another root canal last week.)
Bad gums too, although I clean my teeth thoroughly. Probably related to the
sinusitis.
Murray Grossan - 15 Aug 2006 18:49 GMT
On 8/14/06 9:28 AM, in article Lw1Eg.7379$Z1.4986@trnddc03, "MS"
<ms@nospam.com> wrote:

> I have a lot of dental problems. (Just had another root canal last week.)
> Bad gums too, although I clean my teeth thoroughly. Probably related to the
> sinusitis.
Whichever comes first - gums or sinus - it is vital to clear the gums. There
are excellent dental programs for this.
MS - 15 Aug 2006 20:16 GMT
> On 8/14/06 9:28 AM, in article Lw1Eg.7379$Z1.4986@trnddc03, "MS"

> Whichever comes first - gums or sinus - it is vital to clear the gums.
> There
> are excellent dental programs for this.

Which dental programs are you referring to?
Murray Grossan - 16 Aug 2006 03:34 GMT
On 8/15/06 12:16 PM, in article r4pEg.2561$9v1.1971@trnddc07, "MS"
<ms@nospam.com> wrote:

>> On 8/14/06 9:28 AM, in article Lw1Eg.7379$Z1.4986@trnddc03, "MS"
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Which dental programs are you referring to?

Depends on your condition, your dentist can advise you.
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 14 Aug 2006 18:18 GMT
My allergist also mentioned the antiinflammatory aspects of the
macrolides,  and I was goinng to try them at one point before I ended
up on IV antibiotics last year.  But I have a question for the doctors.

I have had chronic sinusitis for so long that wasn't treated
apporpriately,  and there have been at least 5  gram negative bacteria
cultured out in the last 2 years and I suspect anaerobes also.  Does
the chronic use of macrolides lead to further resistance?  Since my
sphenoids and frontals have been opened up, and if I ever get rid of
this lastest infection  (Klebsiella), would it be safte to use them?

Thanks,
Kathy
judy.n - 14 Aug 2006 21:49 GMT
Kathy,
 I wrote another long post, but I went on them as I was finishing up
treatment for a pseudomonas bone infection, and it helped rid me of the
residual symptoms. Macrolides aren't good gram negative drugs, but they
work against them by decreasing adherence to the mucosa.
 I wrote Dr. Cervins when I did have a flare early on: he recommended
adding Augmentin and NOT stopping the erythromycin (I started on
erythromycin--he uses 250 mg twice a day, but it made me nauseated, so
I switched to daily biaxin several months into the therapy.) If you
need to go on a quinolone, you have to stop the macrolide--the
combination is not safe for your heart. (They both prolong the QT
interval and can cause dangerous rhythm disturbances.)
 So, far, there has been some resistance noted in patients with cystic
fibrosis who do pulsed high doses of azithromycin, very little to no
resistance noted with the sinus treatment.
 Judy
> My allergist also mentioned the antiinflammatory aspects of the
> macrolides,  and I was goinng to try them at one point before I ended
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Thanks,
> Kathy
Susan - 14 Aug 2006 22:06 GMT
> Kathy,
>   I wrote another long post, but I went on them as I was finishing up
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> fibrosis who do pulsed high doses of azithromycin, very little to no
> resistance noted with the sinus treatment.

Years ago, my child was on high dose zithrmax for an extended period for
tick borne disease treatment (cure was effected by adding atovaquone).

During this time, we saw not only strep throats develop while on the
drug, but after a sleep study, were told that pseudomonas was present in
the throat, too, a sort seen typically in CF.

During those years (with a variety of abx), we dealt with 6-8 strep
throats per year, til the throat stopped getting sore and the rash and
joint pains were the tipoff.

None since then, 8 years ago.

Susan
MS - 14 Aug 2006 17:26 GMT
Thanks for all the info, Judy.

Could you more specifically describe how your symptoms have improved under
the regimen? No negative effects?

250 mg per day of Biaxin is much lower than the 500 mg 2x daily I've taken
before for sinus infections. Does one 250 mg tablet last for 24 hours. I
wonder if a patient has worse inflammation, whether a higher dose might work
better?

Does the literature indicate that all macrolides work equally well for this
purpose, or some better than others?

I'm surprised that more docs don't seem to know about this, since there
seems to be a lot of literature on it in Medscape, etc. I  wonder if they
never heard of it, or are just afraid of "prescribing too much antibiotics"?

I have an appointment with an allergist today, who didn't help me at all
before. I'm going to bring a printout of the first article I cited, and see
if I can convince her to give this a try.

>I have been on low dose macrolides ever since I stumbled across Anders
> Cervin's article in 2002. There are many articles in the literature,
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
>> What dosage of Biaxin? You don't take it regularly, but only during
>> exacerbations?
judy.n - 14 Aug 2006 21:43 GMT
I got the dosage of biaxin directly from Anders Cervin, a Swedish
physician who published one of the first articles in the English
literature. I did a literature search at that point, and found lots of
literature from Japan where they have a lot of panbronchiolitis, where
patients' respiratory tracts get colonized with pseudomonas.
 Macrolides by themselves are not considered good pseudomonas drugs.
However, they are quite useful in cystic fibrosis and other diseases
where patients get colonized by pseudomonas by somehow preventing
adherence the biofilm formation.
 Let me get you the Chest Summary, it's very good:
http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/full/125/2_suppl/52S
You can download the pdf file.
The drug is being used for its anti-inflammatory effects, so you use it
at much lower and less frequent doses than if you were treating for
active infection.
The macrolides that have been studied for sinusitis are erythromycin,
biaxin, roxithromycin. I am aware of azthromycin being used at 250mg
once or twice a week--there are no articles to support this, but it has
worked for one physician (at least) clinically. The nice thing about
azithromycin is that it has such a long half life, it can be used so
infrequently, and it doesn't interact with some drugs. It doesn't have
the same degree of cardiac side effects as the earlier generation
macrolides.
 The key seems to be 14 or 15 chambered macrolides.
 My daughter's dermatologist was telling me about a company that is
removing the antimicrobial portion of macrolides and tetracyclines to
create drugs with purely anti-inflammatory properties. I think it was
?Collagenics?
 The original articles advised giving patients 12 weeks to see if they
improved. The drugs decrease mucous secretion. For me, I have far fewer
colds, haven't had many sinus infections and have much less PND. It's
the dramatic decrease in infections that has had the largest impact on
my life. If I could go 8 weeks off antibiotics before, I was lucky. I
do have some asthma, and it's been very well controlled off meds.
 Again, not every patient is a candidate, and not everyone will
respond, but for some people, it's a very effective treatment.
 As Dr. Grossan pointed out: I still irrigate and drink hot tea...
 Judy
> Thanks for all the info, Judy.
>
[quoted text clipped - 88 lines]
> >> What dosage of Biaxin? You don't take it regularly, but only during
> >> exacerbations?
MS - 15 Aug 2006 16:53 GMT
>  Let me get you the Chest Summary, it's very good:
> http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/full/125/2_suppl/52S

Thank you, Judy. Interesting article, and thanks for all your info.

Yesterday I asked the allergist about it, showed her the article I had
printed out. She didn't seem interested in it at all, and would not
prescribe it for me, saying I "didn't have an infection". She wouldn't keep
the article either, saying she " knew about that". She didn't have anything
else to help me either. I won't go to her again.

It certainly wouldn't hurt for me to try such a regimen for a month or so,
and see if it helps. I have taken both biaxin and azithromycin before for
sinus infections, and had no problems with them. I guess docs are really
hesitant about antibiotics these days, after overuse in the past, all the
publicity regarding resistance, etc.

Frustrating. I guess I'll have to try different docs, to find one who will
try this regimen. (With HMO insurance, not easy.) I think many docs don't
like, perhaps feel threatened by, patients who bring in research, have
studied the ailment online, ask a lot of questions, etc. (I can understand
though, with all the drug advertising these days, that there are probably
many patients who ask their docs for certain medicines, due to
advertisement. I think it's better if docs don't respond to such
advertising. However, when a patient has researched his condition, brings in
articles from medical journals, etc., that is something different. Not that
the doc should automatically prescribe what the patient requests, but should
seriously consider it, look at the research behind it, etc.)

I'm curious--to doctors reading this--what do you think when patients come
to you who have studied their condition, bring in research articles, etc.?
MS - 17 Aug 2006 04:55 GMT
>  My ENT attends national meetings and brings up the subject regularly
> to nationally reguarded ENT's and finds universal ignorance of the
> subject. I brought it up to a doctor at Lahey Clinic, and he was much
> more interested in surgery with the sinus balloon, and stated that
> macrolides have been "disappointing".

As I mentioned, I brought this up with the allergist I saw Monday, showed
her an article, etc., and she just pooh-poohed it, wouldn't prescribe that
for me.

I made a second attempt the next day. I sent an e-mail to an ENT I had seen
a couple months ago, told him about my condition, mentioned what I had read
about macrolides as anti-inflammatories, and sent a link to that excellent
article in "Chest..." that Judy referred to.

I told him I would like to try this regimen, to see if it helps me. I
mentioned that I have taken both Biaxin and Zithromax before, and had no bad
reactions from them. Also, that with my prescription insurance, cost
wouldn't be a factor. I suggested that he prescribe it for me for a month,
and we could see if it helps me.

I was happy to receive an e-mail back from him this morning, but not as
happy about its contents. I'll paste in his reply below, of course leaving
out his name, etc.:

-------------e-mail from ENT--------
It isn't something that I am particularly aware of and I really wouldn't be
the best person to ask as a head and neck surgeon. You might want to see if
an infectious disease specialist or an allergist could direct you more
appropriately.
----------------------

An ENT is not a good person to ask about a chronic sinus problem???? Really?
Yes, I know that ENTs are surgeons, but that is not all they do. They treat
disorders of the ears, nose, and throat. Seems like a good fit for this
question, no? He suggested that I go to an allergist or infectious disease
specialist about this. Well, as mentioned, I had gone to an allergist about
this on Monday. An "infections disease specialist"? Why on earth? Because it
deals with an antibiotic? Well, in this case the antibiotic is being
prescribed for inflammation, not for its antibiotic properties. And, if one
did need an antibiotic to deal with an infection, is an ENT, a sinus
specialist,  not a good choice for treating it?

Frustrating. No doc seems to want to try this.
judy.n - 17 Aug 2006 13:09 GMT
MS,
 This stinks. You are caught between a rock and a hard place.
Personally, when patients do research, it's sometimes helpful and can
at least help us explore the options. There was a recent commentary in
American Family Physician about a patient with a cough and chest pain,
and the doctor did a full work up with no results, and his wife
searched the internet and questioned non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma--and that's
what he had. The commentary reported that the internet is full of
misleading stuff, but can also be helpful. I had a young patient with
multiple myeloma and her husband did reams of internet research, and
while we had some different agendas, it was a very productive
discussion.
 The key is dealing with someone who 1) is willing to take
responsibility--unlike your ENT, and 2) has an open mind--unlike your
allergist.
 This week's NE Journal was all about resistant staph in the
community, and they react to that and don't see that this is completely
different.
 If your allergist "knows all about this" then why would she say that
you don't have an infection. It's completely missing the point.
 My sister goes to Kaiser, and it's a tough system. She ultimately got
her internist and ENT to buy into the macrolides. Unfortunately, she
hasn't tolerated the erythromycin well, and stopped it.
 I guess I'd try the allergist again. Maybe ask the ENT why medical
management of sinusitis isn't his responsibility and rather than beat
your head against the wall, see what your primary care doctor would do
for you.
 Seriously, the big scare story of the week is that methicillin
resistant staph accounts for 74% of skin infections in Kansas, so we
should be very scared. The underlying message is "don't use antibiotics
unless absolutely necessary."
 The other problem is a treatment that is widely researched and
published but little known (as my ENT has reported to me.) And the
other is doctors who get dogmatic and get threatened when you do some
research and catch them off guard or ill-informed.
 I work with a dean who saw me suffer through some rough sinus
patches, and she once said that I was lucky I could write my own
prescriptions (something I try to avoid), because otherwise I'd be in
big trouble. That's just not right.
 Infectious disease is just a waste of time here---IMO.
 Sometimes, dropping off a pile of articles and giving someone a
chance to read them first may make them less resistant and feel less
blind-sinded. Or they might just get more threatened....
Judy

> >  My ENT attends national meetings and brings up the subject regularly
> > to nationally reguarded ENT's and finds universal ignorance of the
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> Frustrating. No doc seems to want to try this.
Susan - 17 Aug 2006 13:17 GMT
> MS,
>   This stinks. You are caught between a rock and a hard place.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> searched the internet and questioned non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma--and that's
> what he had.

A few years ago, a friend was suffering constant syncope, facial
flushing, and another sx I can't recall (may've been bowel urgency).

After consultations with all the big guys in NYC, including NYU, Sloan
Kettering (my niece the medical resident offered carcinoid as a
possibility), Lenox Hill hospital, and a total of about 12 prestigious
docs, I typed her 3 most prominent symptoms into Medline and got back
mastocytosis.  That set her out looking for the right kind of doc, but
it still took months of hell in two states to get a competent diagnosis.

10 seconds is what it took me to type those in.  She'd endured a brutal
spinal tap, anaphylaxix for months, sudden weight loss (all food, and
ultimately water caused the sx).

Susan
MS - 17 Aug 2006 14:32 GMT
Judy--thanks for the reply. Are you a doctor? What kind?

> There was a recent commentary in
> American Family Physician about a patient with a cough and chest pain,
> and the doctor did a full work up with no results, and his wife
> searched the internet and questioned non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma--and that's
> what he had. The commentary reported that the internet is full of
> misleading stuff, but can also be helpful.

I wish more doctors would pay attention to that conclusion. I find many
doctors don't seem to like patients asking too many questions, asking about
something read on the Internet, etc.

>  I guess I'd try the allergist again. Maybe ask the ENT why medical
> management of sinusitis isn't his responsibility and rather than beat
> your head against the wall, see what your primary care doctor would do
> for you.

I think it would be a waste of time to deal with either of those docs again.
And I seriously doubt my GP would do it either, as he doesn't like to
prescribe antibiotics, and might say "go see the allergist".

I think I might have to go to different ENTs and allergists, bringing the
article, until I find one who will try this. As that wouldn't be covered by
my insurance (HMO), it will cost, and I could waste time going to multiple
appointments until I find someone willing to try this.

>  Seriously, the big scare story of the week is that methicillin
> resistant staph accounts for 74% of skin infections in Kansas, so we
> should be very scared. The underlying message is "don't use antibiotics
> unless absolutely necessary."

Yes, that certainly seems to be the MO with abx these days--avoid them as
much as possible. Of course, that makes docs less likely to be willing to
try a treatment involving long-term use of them.

>  The other problem is a treatment that is widely researched and
> published but little known (as my ENT has reported to me.) And the
> other is doctors who get dogmatic and get threatened when you do some
> research and catch them off guard or ill-informed.

Yes, I don't understand why this doesn't seem to be better-known, as there
seems to be much research validating it. And docs don't seem to like a
patient who comes in suggesting something that the doc doesn't know about.
That must be threatening to their self-image and pride.

They should have big publicized presentations about this at allergist and
ENT conventions. One would think that the manufacturers of Biaxin and
Zithromax might be willing to support such presentations financially, no?
MS - 17 Aug 2006 18:02 GMT
>she once said that I was lucky I could write my own
> prescriptions (something I try to avoid), because otherwise I'd be in
> big trouble. That's just not right.

Can doctors write their own prescriptions? The person behind the pharmacy
counter might think it was strange, to see that the doctor and patient name
on the RX are the same. Even more so on the phone. Have you done it before?

If I could write my own prescriptions, I would do so in this case. I am
tempted to order over the Internet, from one of the overseas pharmacies that
don't ask for a prescription. (Although the cost would be less than paying
full price in the US, it would cost me a lot more, since my rx insurance
pays most of the cost here.) But mostly, I'd be reluctant to do that, afraid
of whether I'd really be getting the ordered med, or some fake, etc.
Susan - 17 Aug 2006 18:12 GMT
>>she once said that I was lucky I could write my own
>>prescriptions (something I try to avoid), because otherwise I'd be in
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> pays most of the cost here.) But mostly, I'd be reluctant to do that, afraid
> of whether I'd really be getting the ordered med, or some fake, etc.

The alternative is a veterinary supply store.  No kidding.  Same stuff,
different dosages and much cheaper.

Susan
MS - 17 Aug 2006 18:29 GMT
> The alternative is a veterinary supply store.  No kidding.  Same stuff,
> different dosages and much cheaper.
>
> Susan

Is that the case? You don't need a prescription from the vet? Are you sure
the meds are of the same quality, and safe for humans? If so, I would bet
that a lot of people without rx insurance would go that route.
Susan - 17 Aug 2006 18:43 GMT
> Is that the case? You don't need a prescription from the vet? Are you sure
> the meds are of the same quality, and safe for humans? If so, I would bet
> that a lot of people without rx insurance would go that route.

http://www.calvetsupply.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=262

Susan
MS - 18 Aug 2006 16:42 GMT
> http://www.calvetsupply.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=262
>
> Susan

I just looked at that page, of their oral antibiotics. No Biaxin or
Zithro.... Come to think of it, it's unlikely that expensive abx still under
patent would be used on animals. Therefore, the ones sold there are generics
of penicillin, amoxicillin, etc.
Susan - 18 Aug 2006 16:47 GMT
> I just looked at that page, of their oral antibiotics. No Biaxin or
> Zithro.... Come to think of it, it's unlikely that expensive abx still under
> patent would be used on animals. Therefore, the ones sold there are generics
> of penicillin, amoxicillin, etc.

That's not the only supplier, it was an example of what could be found,
though, without an rx.

There are on patent drugs, I believe, but in the vet world, they have
different names, so you have to read the product lists completely.

Susan
judy.n - 18 Aug 2006 16:53 GMT
FYI: both biaxin and zithromax are generic now.
Judy

> > http://www.calvetsupply.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=262
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> patent would be used on animals. Therefore, the ones sold there are generics
> of penicillin, amoxicillin, etc.
Susan - 17 Aug 2006 18:44 GMT
> Is that the case? You don't need a prescription from the vet? Are you sure
> the meds are of the same quality, and safe for humans? If so, I would bet
> that a lot of people without rx insurance would go that route.

Yes, in fact I know of some who do.  It's the same stuff, pharmacy
quality.  Cheaper.

Susan
judy.n - 17 Aug 2006 19:26 GMT
I've filled scripts for my dog at Target if the vet doesn't carry it
(cytotec). I just threw out the bottle dispensed to "Emma/canine". My
horse vet dispenses the bute for my horse.But horse psyllium is just
expensive metamucil--we buy huge amounts at Target and ignore the looks
we get. But seriously, they dispense huge quantities of antibiotics for
the dogs/horses: my horse has taken mega doses of bactrim for a very
low price. There was an article about how people go to PetCo and they
sell antibiotics in the fish aisle, and they use them when they have no
insurance. It's true.
Judy
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Susan
judy.n - 17 Aug 2006 19:21 GMT
Personally, I always thought it was unethical/against the law, but I
had my first real asthma episode over a holiday, and wrote for an
inhaled steroid and the pharmacist gave me a doctor discount! I'm
amazed at how many physicians I see as a patient who expect me to write
my own script: I uniformly refuse and make them write it. I've always
worked in groups and people write scripts for each other at times.
   There was an article about it in a family practice journal, and
they said that if you wrote a script you needed to have a
doctor/patient relationship and document the encounter. My husband is
our dentist, and he writes us a script if we need it, but he's really
treating us. He can't charge insurance if he treats us--but we don't
have dental insurance, so it's a moot point.
 Most doctors I know will write for simple stuff for themselves or
family: treat a rash kind of stuff. But, most doctors have full sample
cabinets and most samples are used by physicians or staff.
Judy

> >she once said that I was lucky I could write my own
> > prescriptions (something I try to avoid), because otherwise I'd be in
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> pays most of the cost here.) But mostly, I'd be reluctant to do that, afraid
> of whether I'd really be getting the ordered med, or some fake, etc.
Melanie - 22 Aug 2006 23:21 GMT
You need to go to asthmastory.com to learn more about this.

12 weeks of antibiotics is not a bad thing considering what long term
use of steroids and other drugs can do to you.

Besides, I have friends who are on antibiotics for acne and they take
them months at a time.

~Melanie
MS - 22 Aug 2006 23:38 GMT
> You need to go to asthmastory.com to learn more about this.

I just looked there. Not really similar, in that the author contends that
asthma is caused by a bacteria, and that taking zithromax cured him. In
other words, the antibacterial properties, not the anti-inflammatory
properties of the macrolides, as discussed in these other articles.

I don't know if he's right about asthma being caused by bacteria. If that
were the case, one would think that more researchers would have discovered
that. Or, perhaps the zithro helped him due to the anti-inflammatory
properties.

Unusual dosing described there--only once a week--for 14 weeks. Normally
it's prescribed once per day.
judy.n - 23 Aug 2006 01:59 GMT
I actually emailed him once: he's a family doctor who works at a
practice affiliated with Univ of Wisconsin. He believes that some
asthma--or maybe most--is due to underlying chlymidia pneumonia
infections, and advocates a 12 week treatment with full dose
azithromycin. He had some articles published, and now is trying to
recruit people to do clinical trials. I thought it was interesting, but
clearly not in the mainstream belief system. He is a reputable person.
I got his dosage form from his website: a short course of azithromycin
600mg daily and then a weekly dose for a total of 12 weeks, and
reportedly a fair number of patients improve with their asthma
symptoms. I've never tried it. The infectious disease references do
state that chylmidia pneumonia can require a prolonged course of
therapy to eradicate it.
Judy
> > You need to go to asthmastory.com to learn more about this.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Unusual dosing described there--only once a week--for 14 weeks. Normally
> it's prescribed once per day.
MS - 14 Aug 2006 13:45 GMT
>My ENT is Chairman of Otorhinolarynology at Loyola Medical School, and my
>pulmo was a professor there before entering private practice.

Do you mean Loyola University in Los Angeles, or is it a different Loyola?
Bob - 08 Apr 2007 22:20 GMT
> > My ENT is Chairman of Otorhinolarynology at Loyola Medical School,
> > and my pulmo was a professor there before entering private practice.
>
> Do you mean Loyola University in Los Angeles, or is it a different
> Loyola?

I think it is the European place.
MS - 14 Aug 2006 06:42 GMT
> Based on the evidence, using macrolides for anti-inflammatory effect makes
> good sense. I have used it but always in conjunction with pulsatile
> irrigation which supports this action plus proteolytic enzymes to further
> reduce swelling.

Which macrolides have you used for that purpose? Have you found some to work
better at reducing inflammation? At what dosage? Does the patient (with
chronic nasal-sinus inflammation) keep taking the macrolide indefinitely?
What risks are there for such long-term use? What about antibiotic
resistance?

Thanks for the info.
Murray Grossan - 14 Aug 2006 16:19 GMT
On 8/13/06 10:42 PM, in article r3UDg.56699$u05.17584@trnddc01, "MS"
<ms@nospam.com> wrote:

> Which macrolides have you used for that purpose? Have you found some to work
> better at reducing inflammation? At what dosage? Does the patient (with
> chronic nasal-sinus inflammation) keep taking the macrolide indefinitely?
> What risks are there for such long-term use? What about antibiotic
> resistance?
All these are concerns. There needs to be "pure" studies, but with my
patients we add "extras" pulsatile irrigation, protolytic enzymes, cilia
stimuli that keep this from being a "pure" study.
MS - 14 Aug 2006 17:30 GMT
> On 8/13/06 10:42 PM, in article r3UDg.56699$u05.17584@trnddc01, "MS"

> All these are concerns. There needs to be "pure" studies, but with my
> patients we add "extras" pulsatile irrigation, protolytic enzymes, cilia
> stimuli that keep this from being a "pure" study.

Yes, but you have been prescribing irrigation for decades, and I think this
type of antibiotic prescribing is something newer. So, you might have some
idea how the latter is working.
Susan - 14 Aug 2006 17:44 GMT
>>On 8/13/06 10:42 PM, in article r3UDg.56699$u05.17584@trnddc01, "MS"
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> type of antibiotic prescribing is something newer. So, you might have some
> idea how the latter is working.
Yolie - 11 Sep 2006 08:21 GMT
I have never heard of macrolides as anti-inflammatories
(but knew that some Doctotors prescribe them for acne)
but would prefer using them for this purpose becauase
of resistance problem associated with them.
I would strictly use them for infections
Melanie - 15 Sep 2006 22:55 GMT
> I have never heard of macrolides as anti-inflammatories
> (but knew that some Doctotors prescribe them for acne)
> but would prefer using them for this purpose becauase
> of resistance problem associated with them.
> I would strictly use them for infections

Someone with a compromised immune system is going to have to take who
knows how many antibiotics over the years.

Taking 12 weeks of Zithromax as a potential cure would far outweight
any risks.

~Melanie
 
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