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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / August 2006

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New Study On Irrigation

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judy.n - 30 Jul 2006 17:17 GMT
I recently was sent the latest from the Journal of Family Medicine:
they evaluated nasal irrigation, using a neti pot, but only to look at
the convenience, and quality of life measures. They found neti pot
irrigation to be convenient and to improve patient's sense of control
over their disease and quality of life. I looked at the cited
references: no mention of pulsatile irrigation. So, not any earth
shattering news, but just acknowledgment that irrigation is useful in
sinus disease. Nothing we didn't know. I read their info on how to
irrigate: they used tap water and a heaping tsp of salt and a pinch of
backing soda to a pint of water. Just an FYI. Here's the abstract:
http://www.annfammed.org/cgi/content/full/4/4/295

I emailed the author to get his impression of the various forms of
irrigations, and if he was aware of them, or evaluated them.

Judy
Full disclosure: I use a neti pot, previously used a water pik, but
switched on advice of my ENT
Susan - 30 Jul 2006 17:26 GMT
> I recently was sent the latest from the Journal of Family Medicine:
> they evaluated nasal irrigation, using a neti pot, but only to look at
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> irrigate: they used tap water and a heaping tsp of salt and a pinch of
> backing soda to a pint of water.

Thanks, Judy.  It amused me to see that researchers were surprised by
the "passion" of the patients at having attained relief from sinusitis.
I guess they've never suffered from it?

Tap water, though?  Unsterilized?

Susan
judy.n - 30 Jul 2006 18:01 GMT
I agree. I emailed the contact person, but it got kicked back as
undeliverable, to alert him to the risks of using tap water and to
inquire if they actually researched the various methods and solutions.
 As a family practitioner, I sometimes feel like family practice
research is fairly low quality--and I'm not impressed with this
article. I guess it's useful to educate the average family practioner
who's never heard of a neti pot, yet treats sinusitis daily.
Judy
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Susan
Terry Raymond - 06 Aug 2006 13:32 GMT
"judy.n" <judy.nudelman@gmail.com> wrote in news:1154276267.799188.242660
@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:

> I recently was sent the latest from the Journal of Family Medicine:
> they evaluated nasal irrigation, using a neti pot, but only to look at
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Full disclosure: I use a neti pot, previously used a water pik, but
> switched on advice of my ENT

Terence M Davidson posted a comment on Aug 3, 2006. It is
his opinion that pulsatile irrigation is superior.

Signature

Terry
===========================================================
Terry Raymond       Smalltalk Professional Debug Package
Crafted Smalltalk   *Breakpoints* and *Watchpoints* for
80 Lazywood Ln.                  VW and ENVY/Developer
Tiverton, RI  02878
(401) 624-4517        traymond at craftedsmalltalk nospam dot com
<http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com>
===========================================================

judy.n - 06 Aug 2006 14:24 GMT
Terry, Could you direct me to the comment, and his qualifications to
make that assertion?
Judy
> "judy.n" <judy.nudelman@gmail.com> wrote in news:1154276267.799188.242660
> @m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> <http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com>
> ===========================================================
judy.n - 06 Aug 2006 14:28 GMT
Terry I figured out who he is, and found his website, and he only
mentioned the grossan and various pulsatile irrigators. He doesn't
mention disinfecting them. Did he address neti vs. pulsatile?
Judy
> Terry, Could you direct me to the comment, and his qualifications to
> make that assertion?
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> > <http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com>
> > ===========================================================
Terry Raymond - 06 Aug 2006 19:15 GMT
> Terry I figured out who he is, and found his website, and he only
> mentioned the grossan and various pulsatile irrigators. He doesn't
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>> > > backing soda to a pint of water. Just an FYI. Here's the
>> > > abstract: http://www.annfammed.org/cgi/content/full/4/4/295

Judy

There are comments near the bottom of the page of the above URL.
He posted a comment there. If you click on "Full Text" you can
read his comment

Signature

Terry
===========================================================
Terry Raymond       Smalltalk Professional Debug Package
Crafted Smalltalk   *Breakpoints* and *Watchpoints* for
80 Lazywood Ln.                  VW and ENVY/Developer
Tiverton, RI  02878
(401) 624-4517        traymond at craftedsmalltalk nospam dot com
<http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com>
===========================================================

Susan - 06 Aug 2006 19:23 GMT
> There are comments near the bottom of the page of the above URL.
> He posted a comment there. If you click on "Full Text" you can
> read his comment

His comment squares with my own opinion, having irrigated only with a
NeilMed bottle and saline spray bottles prior to pulsatile irrigation.
Certainly, 3000 patients is a lot, and I find myself wondering if he did
a systemic case review, surveys, or just winged his evaluation based
upon his observations.

I'd like more info about how he arrived at his evaluation.

Susan
judy.n - 07 Aug 2006 01:14 GMT
Terry and Susan,
 I feel like an idiot, but I can't seem to find his post: I found his
website,
http://www-surgery.ucsd.edu/ent/davidson/NASHAND/nasal.htm#NASAL_IRRIG
But it hasn't been updated for about 3 years.
Could you direct me to the right URL/post.
Thanks.
Judy

> > Terry I figured out who he is, and found his website, and he only
> > mentioned the grossan and various pulsatile irrigators. He doesn't
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> <http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com>
> ===========================================================
Susan - 07 Aug 2006 02:04 GMT
> Terry and Susan,
>   I feel like an idiot, but I can't seem to find his post: I found his
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Could you direct me to the right URL/post.
> Thanks.

Judy, if you scroll all the way to the bottom of the original link to
the article Terry posted, there's a link to this comment:

http://www.annfammed.org/cgi/eletters/4/4/295#4287

HTH,

Susan
judy.n - 07 Aug 2006 14:02 GMT
Thanks Susan, I was actually  the one who posted the article, and never
thought to look for comments. Interesting that he follows Family
Practice Literature, and this journal has cut back and is only
published on the web currently.
 I do agree that I'd like to see actual studies comparing pulsatile
vs. nonpulsatile, as the comments were that pulsatile is clearly
superior for all wound cleansing, but that's an opinion rather than a
fact.
 Judy
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan - 07 Aug 2006 14:34 GMT
> Thanks Susan, I was actually  the one who posted the article, and never
> thought to look for comments.

I have the memory and attention span of a gnat, sorry for the
misattribution.  :-)

 Interesting that he follows Family
> Practice Literature, and this journal has cut back and is only
> published on the web currently.
>   I do agree that I'd like to see actual studies comparing pulsatile
> vs. nonpulsatile, as the comments were that pulsatile is clearly
> superior for all wound cleansing, but that's an opinion rather than a
> fact.

I think we've seen comparison studies of atomizers vs. pulsatile (Murray
has them posted on his site, I think), but not of all the methods, such
as neti, NeilMed, etc.

Susan
judy.n - 07 Aug 2006 14:34 GMT
I submitted a comment that I'd like to see RTC's comparing the two
methods: pulsatile vs. non-pulsatile. If the editors find the post
acceptable, it will join Dr. Davidson's. Thanks for directing me to the
right spot.
Judy
> Thanks Susan, I was actually  the one who posted the article, and never
> thought to look for comments. Interesting that he follows Family
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> >
> > Susan
Susan - 07 Aug 2006 14:52 GMT
> Thanks Susan, I was actually  the one who posted the article, and never
> thought to look for comments. Interesting that he follows Family
> Practice Literature, and this journal has cut back and is only
> published on the web currently.

P.S. He may not follow family practice lit, Judy, but he may subscribe
to a service that scans the net for new publications re: sinusitis,
frex, and emails them to him.

Susan
judy.n - 13 Aug 2006 16:40 GMT
I checked and my little (subjective and full of typo's) comment was
posted, but more interesting was the comment by an ENT from Pittsburgh,
Here's her bio page:
http://www.upmc.edu/eyeear/SinoNasal/faculty/Ferguson.htm
Berrilyn Ferguson
She had an interesting take on irrigation, and recommends hypertonic
irrigation as tolerated, no preference for pulsatile irrigation and she
cites Davidson's review article on the topic.
Here's the URL for her post.
http://www.annfammed.org/cgi/eletters/4/4/295
Here's the text:
The authors report on the quality of life improvements and reflections
of over two dozen individuals utilizing hypertonic saline nasal
irrigation on an as needed basis. The findings provide validation of
the anecdotal experience of many rhinologists. Unique to this study was
an apparent added benefit of group training and discussions, which gave
these sufferers an additional benefit conferred from "group
support", a benefit acknowledged in many disease states from cancer
support groups to chronic debilitating diseases. I had not previously
considered that this kind of group support might be helpful for chronic
rhinosinusitis, but from the interviews it appears that it is indeed
appreciated by the participants.

I can think of no way to perform a blinded controlled study of nasal
irrigations, but that doesn't mean they are not effective. In fact,
the efficacy of the irrigation frequently overshadows the efficacy of
any number of added ingredients including antifungals, antibacterials,
and topical steroids.1 The irrigation serves to remove nasal debris in
noses that are not self-cleaning, which is particularly a problem in
patients with nasal polyps or who have undergone extensive sinus/nasal
surgery.

Nasal irrigation can also be helpful as a rinse to remove mucus before
the application of a topical steroid or antibiotic. I commonly
recommend a commercial nasal lavage kit, of which there are a half
dozen or so available to assist with compliance. There are many
commercially available nasal irrigators.2 I also provide our patients
with a "recipe" so that they can make their own saline irrigation.
Patients should be warned to use filtered or boiled water, and to make
sure the device used for irrigation is cleaned frequently to prevent
iatrogenic inoculation with water loving microbes such as Pseudomonas
and Serratia.

The debate of hypertonic versus normal saline irrigation is sure to
continue.3 I usually provide the patient with the recipe for hypertonic
saline and suggest that they reduce the amount of salt they add, if
they find that the hypertonic mixture is irritating. Interestingly,
hypertonic inhaled saline has been shown to be beneficial in cystic
fibrosis.4 Seven percent of patients with chronic rhinosinusitis carry
a mutation for cystic fibrosis compared to 2% of normal controls. Thus
there may be a variance in response to hypertonic versus isotonic
saline irrigations, depending on the cause of the patient's
rhinosinusitis.5

Finally, the authors capture in a qualitative manner the relief that
patients feel with this technique. I still recall the words of a
patient on her return visit, "I can't believe I've been suffering for
30 years with the sinus condition when relief was as easy and
inexpensive as this salt water wash." A trial of hypertonic or isotonic
saline nasal rinse is inexpensive, does not promote bacterial
resistance, and safe. Saline irrigations should be a therapeutic
alternative offered to any patients suffering from chronic
rhinosinusitis.

References

1. Ferguson BJ. Antifungal Nasal Washes for Chronic Rhinosinusitis:
What's Therapeutic -- The Watch or the Antifungal? J Allergy Clin
Immunology 2003;111(11)37-8.

2. Tomooka LT, Murphy C, Davidson TM. Clinical Study Literature Review
of Nasal Irrigation. Laryngoscope 2000;110(11)89-93.

3. Garavello W, Romagnoli M, Gaini RM. Hypertonic or Ice Tonic Saline
for Allergic Rhinitis in Children. Pediatric Allergy and Immunology
2005;16:91.

4. Elkins MR, Robinson M, Rose BR, Harbour C, Moriarty CP, Marks GB,
Belousova EG, Xuan W, Bye PT. National Hypertonic Saline in Cystic
Fibrosis (NHSCF) Study Group. A Controlled Trial of Long-term Inhaled
Hypertonic Saline in Patients with Cystic Fibrosis. N Engl J Med
2006;354:229-240.

5. Wang X, Moylan B, Leopold DA, Kim J, Rubenstein RC, Togias A, Proud
D, Zeitlin PL, Cutting GR. Mutation in the Gene Responsible for Cystic
Fibrosis and Predisposition to Chronic Rhinosinusitis in the General
Population. JAMA 2000;284:1814-1819.

Competing interests:   None declared

Judy
> Thanks Susan, I was actually  the one who posted the article, and never
> thought to look for comments. Interesting that he follows Family
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> >
> > Susan
Susan - 13 Aug 2006 17:09 GMT
> I checked and my little (subjective and full of typo's) comment was
> posted, but more interesting was the comment by an ENT from Pittsburgh,
> Here's her bio page:
> http://www.upmc.edu/eyeear/SinoNasal/faculty/Ferguson.htm

Thank you, Judy!  Not only for the follow up info, but for someone to
visit if I don't get and keep things under control, once my HPA
suppression issue is all sorted out.

Her review of the issues related to treatment with irrigation was really
informative and thorough.

Susan
judy.n - 13 Aug 2006 21:52 GMT
Susan,
 I completely agree. Ironically, I finished up medical school in
Pittsburgh--I transferred from Chicago to join my husband, and Pitt has
really become a national center. It was recently ranked  the 14th best
medical center in the country. Go figure. I thought I was making a huge
concession at the time. My in-laws are still in Pittsburgh, and I was
so impressed by her comments her intra office capabilities,that I'd
consider a consult if I needed one. Or for my daughter. I really liked
her post, so now she's on my radar screen as well. I'm so glad she
wrote a comment--and I really appreciated her references. This isn't
"in my expert opinion" ego driven stuff, it is clinical experience and
data to support it. I did notice that she was very concerned about
pseudomonas and serratia, and that has always been my concern with
tubing that never dries fully. I've always (and my ENT concurs) thought
my pseudomonas osteomyelitis started from a nasty bulb syringe.I
through the neti pots in the dishwasher on sanitary rinse weekly, as
well as drying them. When I use a neilmed rinse bottle occasionally, I
rinse it with vinegar.
 Judy
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan - 13 Aug 2006 23:59 GMT
> Susan,
>   I completely agree. Ironically, I finished up medical school in
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> well as drying them. When I use a neilmed rinse bottle occasionally, I
> rinse it with vinegar.

This concerns, me, too.  It's why I've so often mentioned here, (hint,
hint, Murray!) that I wish the pulsatile irrigator had a removable tube.

I try to get it as dry as I can, and I run strong solutions more than
weekly now. I've always been bullish on distilled or boiled water, too.

Susan
Murray Grossan - 08 Aug 2006 06:09 GMT
On 8/6/06 5:32 AM, in article
Xns981756E2F208Ctraymondcraftedsmall@70.168.83.30, "Terry Raymond"
<traymond@nospam.com> wrote:

> "judy.n" <judy.nudelman@gmail.com> wrote in news:1154276267.799188.242660
> @m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Terence M Davidson posted a comment on Aug 3, 2006. It is
> his opinion that pulsatile irrigation is superior.

Dr Davidson is chief of ENT at UC San Diego and the San Diego VA. He is the
originator of using Pulsatile Irrigation for treating CF. He has a dozen
articles listed on Pub Med and he has an excellent web site. He directs the
ENT residency program at UC SD which is one of the top ones.
travmmann - 08 Aug 2006 10:18 GMT
I amazed  that my ENT has told me to stop using my Grossan Hydra Pulse. He
was all for it a few months ago but says that now that my surgery has
finished I should not use it....but I do...!!!

Kindest personal regards,
Ray The Travellin' Man.....Ray Armstrong your eyes and ears on the Tweed!!
Let's Keep Music Liiiiiiiiiiiive!!!!!!!
> On 8/6/06 5:32 AM, in article
> Xns981756E2F208Ctraymondcraftedsmall@70.168.83.30, "Terry Raymond"
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> articles listed on Pub Med and he has an excellent web site. He directs the
> ENT residency program at UC SD which is one of the top ones.
judy.n - 08 Aug 2006 15:28 GMT
But has he directly compared pulsatile vs. neti pot vs. neilmed
irrigation delivery sytems?
His web site hasn't been updated since 2003 and still recommends OTC
nasal saline with preservatives in it....
Judy
> On 8/6/06 5:32 AM, in article
> Xns981756E2F208Ctraymondcraftedsmall@70.168.83.30, "Terry Raymond"
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> articles listed on Pub Med and he has an excellent web site. He directs the
> ENT residency program at UC SD which is one of the top ones.
Murray Grossan - 08 Aug 2006 17:14 GMT
On 8/8/06 7:28 AM, in article
1155047313.297968.165490@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com, "judy.n"

> But has he directly compared pulsatile vs. neti pot vs. neilmed
> irrigation delivery sytems?
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>> articles listed on Pub Med and he has an excellent web site. He directs the
>> ENT residency program at UC SD which is one of the top ones.

You need to understand that just as some with hip symptoms do well with
aspirin, others require demerol and others require hip surgery, so also some
with nasal symptoms do well with simple whatever and some require more. It
all has to do with anatomy - yours is different - and cilia function.
In my practice, not all patients respond to pulsatile irrigation - they may
have anatomical blockage, etc. And of course I only see the one's who have
failed other treatments and methods. So, one size doesn't fit all, etc.
Certainly using a simple nasal spray - without BZK, compresses, tea, should
be tried first. But for the patients I see, pulsatile irrigation to restore
cilia function and remove thick mucus can be the best approach - but I see
the ones who have tried everything else, including  the pots.

Any research that is based on the patient felt better is a problem, which is
why you have so many equal results with placebo vs drug. When you are
dealing with patients the doctor must use what in his experience works to
clear objective findings.
Susan - 08 Aug 2006 17:18 GMT
> Any research that is based on the patient felt better is a problem, which is
> why you have so many equal results with placebo vs drug. When you are
> dealing with patients the doctor must use what in his experience works to
> clear objective findings.

I have had my worst symptoms from sinusitis at times that objective
findings have been nil, so I have to respectfully disagree.

If nothing else, we see this problem over and over again on this board,
with surgical findings bearing out the patient's report of symptoms
where other less intensive objective methods have failed.

If I feel I'm in an office where a doctor discounts my experience of my
symptoms as important evidence, I RUN, don't walk, to the exit.

Susan
Susan - 08 Aug 2006 17:23 GMT
> If nothing else, we see this problem over and over again on this board,

Oh, crap.  Group, not "board."

Susan
Murray Grossan - 09 Aug 2006 05:25 GMT
On 8/8/06 9:18 AM, in article 4jrrrcF986vuU1@individual.net, "Susan"
<nevermind@nomail.com> wrote:

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Susan
Dear Susan, Objective evidence may not be looking in the nose. It may be
culture, CT scan and endoscopy.
Susan - 09 Aug 2006 13:24 GMT
> Dear Susan, Objective evidence may not be looking in the nose. It may be
> culture, CT scan and endoscopy.

Murray, I had CT scan at my worst, with negative findings.

More than once, at more than one facility.

We've heard from folks here repeatedly that their surgeon's findings
were far worse, and showed numerous problems that objective diagnostic
procedures did not.

The question becomes, is the disease defined by what the patient
experiences, or by what the imperfect technology shows?

Susan
Don Brady - 09 Aug 2006 20:41 GMT
>Murray, I had CT scan at my worst, with negative findings.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>The question becomes, is the disease defined by what the patient
>experiences, or by what the imperfect technology shows?

Better results are often obtained by going by objective evidence.

Patients will often fabricate symptoms to get the diagnosis they want.

Obviously this would not be the case with you or me, but a lot of people deal
on the basis of deceit in their daily lives and carry it right into the
doctor's office - particularly manipulative people.

Then there is the placebo effect, etc. etc.

Now I agree with you that I would like the doctor to pusue avenues suggested by
my subjective comments.   Very thoroughly.  

But on occasions, I have been told that there was nothing wrong with me despite
"symptoms."  They were usually right and this was a tremendous relief (when I
heard it from an authoritative enough source after a thorough investigation).

You will find doctors who will listen to your every self-diagnosis and sign off
on it.   They are useful to have available on occasion.

But overall, I think some skepticism is not at all inappropriate on the part of
the doctor in most cases.  

Maybe we need both types of doctor.
Susan - 09 Aug 2006 20:56 GMT
> Better results are often obtained by going by objective evidence.
>
> Patients will often fabricate symptoms to get the diagnosis they want.

I don't believe this; I think it's predmoninantly a myth perpetrated by
doctors who failed to find what was wrong.

> Obviously this would not be the case with you or me, but a lot of people deal
> on the basis of deceit in their daily lives and carry it right into the
> doctor's office - particularly manipulative people.

Even if this were true, it doesn't rule out the possibility that they
actually have the problem they're attempting to get treated.  If

> Then there is the placebo effect, etc. etc.

No, there is not the placebo effect; this according to the largest meta
study ever to examine it.  Not the way you're using the term, anyway.
What's often misinterpreted as the placebo effect is the waxing and
waning of symptoms, for example.

> Now I agree with you that I would like the doctor to pusue avenues suggested by
> my subjective comments.   Very thoroughly.

Yes, patient report is the most important evidence the doctor will find.
Osler must be spinning in his grave, what with the insurance lobby
driven consensus guidelines that rule out patient report.

> But on occasions, I have been told that there was nothing wrong with me despite
> "symptoms."  They were usually right and this was a tremendous relief (when I
> heard it from an authoritative enough source after a thorough investigation).

Often, I've been told there was nothing wrong with me even when I was in
a very precarious state of health, by cookbook style doctors following
consensus guidelines that are controversial, unsupported by the science,
yet widely accepted, promulgated and instituted.  Recently, even.

> You will find doctors who will listen to your every self-diagnosis and sign off
> on it.   They are useful to have available on occasion.

Not anymore you don't find docs like that.  Rarely.

> But overall, I think some skepticism is not at all inappropriate on the part of
> the doctor in most cases.  
>
> Maybe we need both types of doctor.

I don't.  Maybe you do.

Susan
Don Brady - 09 Aug 2006 21:40 GMT
>> Maybe we need both types of doctor.
>
>I don't.  Maybe you do.

Oh I wasn't referring to either you or me.

I meant maybe the world needs both types - the listening type and the objective
evidence type....
Susan - 09 Aug 2006 21:52 GMT
>>>Maybe we need both types of doctor.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I meant maybe the world needs both types - the listening type and the objective
> evidence type....

That's a recipe for each type to be the worst possible doctor.  :-/

IMO, those "types" shouldn't exist.  Good clinical practice has a
requirement for both skills.  Anyone who's one of those types should
sell shoes for a living.

Susan
Andries - 10 Aug 2006 08:24 GMT
Susan,

I respectfully do not agree with you.

Patients do often fake symptoms to get what they want. This is human
behavouir, which you see everywhere.
So for a doctor it's the challenge to determine what is true and what is not
true, or maybe not so worse as the patient would want the doctor to believe.
Therefor a doctor should have both disicplines, listening and objective.
Also unfortanly, not all docters posses these 2 items as good as they should
have, but therefor they are humans too. The perfect person does not excist.

So, sometimes it may take a few visits to some doctors to find the right one
for you. We all know the stories from different persons about the same
doctor/dentist/whatever. One person speaks highly about that doctor, the
other one only has horror-stories.

Not all people/doctors are the same, look/search for the right one for you.

Andries

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan - 10 Aug 2006 13:38 GMT
> Susan,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> So for a doctor it's the challenge to determine what is true and what is not
> true, or maybe not so worse as the patient would want the doctor to believe.

I sincerely hope you're not a clinician of any kind, with this level of
contempt for patients in evidence.

Susan
judy.n - 10 Aug 2006 01:35 GMT
Don,
 I'm going to respectfully disagree that there are two types of
doctors. Ideally there is one type of physician, and that type is
motivated by true collaboration with patients, having an extensive
knowledge base but also recognizing their limitations and freely
admitting them. Medical training is brutal--I've survived it, and I
teach and I'm currently vicariously suffering as a family member is
being beaten down during his internship. The product of this hazing is
often a physician who is so emotionally detached and feels entitled
(due to the deprivations they've suffered and continue to suffer) that
they feel the need to project authority over honesty.
 In my over two decades of medical practice, I've rarely found that
patients fabricate symptoms. I can count on one hand those who
conciously malingered. Sure, some addicted patients drug seek and other
patients over utilize the system, but very few make up symptoms.
 Patients are scared. They're sick and concerned. That is very
different from fabrication.
 The best physicians are essentially humble and listen.
 I just don't believe that there are " two types" of physicians: those
who discount your symptoms and those who are so burnt out that they
just nod and agree. Both of those types shouldn't be taking care of
patients.
Judy
(Writing after a day when every patient I saw was really sick and
complicated--no one was a simple situation.)

> >Murray, I had CT scan at my worst, with negative findings.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Maybe we need both types of doctor.
Don Brady - 10 Aug 2006 03:31 GMT
Obviously the ideal doctor would have A++ skills in all categories.=

There's the ideal and then there's reality.

Yes every doctor you see should have good communications capabiltiies

But sometimes you will not be able to get both sets of skills in one person.
You prioritize and get what you can from the doctor you're talking to, and see
others if need be for what you do nto get from one.   That's a realsitic
approach.

Looking for a Marcus Welby every tiem they see a doctor seems to be everyone's
approach and I do not think it is realistic.

Guess what, doctors are human beings, each with strengths and weaknesses.
judy.n - 10 Aug 2006 12:40 GMT
Don,
Marcus Welby was paternalistic not my ideal physician.
I agree, physicians are human and struggling in a broken healthcare
system, which doesn't serve either providers or patients well, but does
enrich insurance companies, pharmaceutical industries, and healthcare
supply companies. I am on a listserve which also has a
blog--healthrenewal (hcrenewal.blogspot.com)--and the stories of
ingrained and pervasive corruption are horrifying. The conflicts of
interest are the norm at this point.
 What I was responding to was the statement that patients fabricate
symptoms. I just don't think they do. I often think that in a
compressed visit with a stressed physician, symptoms get edited and
physicians can only deal with a portion of what's presented to them.
 Believe me, I know that there is no one ideal physician, but as a
patient and a provider, I know what I look for, and that's honesty and
willingness to work with someone, not dogmatic experts who "know" all
the answers. I also think that patients usually reveal what the problem
is if you just take the time to listen to their history--and that's a
big if when doctors are pressured into seeing 30-50 patients a day just
to stay afloat financially.
Judy
> Obviously the ideal doctor would have A++ skills in all categories.=
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Guess what, doctors are human beings, each with strengths and weaknesses.
Don Brady - 10 Aug 2006 20:38 GMT
>Don,
> Marcus Welby was paternalistic not my ideal physician.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>ingrained and pervasive corruption are horrifying. The conflicts of
>interest are the norm at this point.

Do you think that has ever not been the case?  Caveat emptor and caveat
patient.

>  What I was responding to was the statement that patients fabricate
>symptoms. I just don't think they do.

Oh ok well maybe I am just a little more cynical than some.

Fabricate might be too strong a word on my part but I would go for "slant."

> I often think that in a
>compressed visit with a stressed physician, symptoms get edited and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>big if when doctors are pressured into seeing 30-50 patients a day just
>to stay afloat financially.

That's right the general practitioner doctor will give you maybe one minute
before cutting you off to start his own inquiries.  But most people are totally
unfocused anyway, giving irrelevant information, etc.

Actually people like you and me get a lot more by being knoweledeable /
assertive etc.

Also we just skip GP's that most people go right to specialists.

So for m the practical solution for a patient is to just game the system a
little.   It is very feasible.  This same approach works in all environments -
private insurance, HMO, socialized medicine, etc.

As a provider, you have different concerns such as equity, fairness, etc.   I
agree these are worthwhile, but they do not really affect me.
judy.n - 10 Aug 2006 01:25 GMT
I understand that you believe that pulsatile irrigation is superior to
other delivery methods, I'd just like to see where it has actually been
studied "head to head" and pulsatile is superior with objective
criteria.
 I do understand that clinical experience is important, but
unsubstantiated claims make me uncomfortable as so much "common
knowledge" has been proven wrong when actually studied--e.g. estrogen
is good for the heart in post menopausal women, etc.
Judy
> On 8/8/06 7:28 AM, in article
> 1155047313.297968.165490@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com, "judy.n"
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> dealing with patients the doctor must use what in his experience works to
> clear objective findings.
 
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