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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / July 2006Xylitol irrigation
This is just an observation after my first time irrigating with a very sweet pure xylitol solution last night (no saline). As usual, it got trapped up in my right ethmoid, so I guess it steeped. This a.m., when I blew my nose, I definitely removed thicker gunk than usual. Could just be a coincidence; I also bleach mopped all the surfaces in my bathroom last night because I was feeling a bit congested. I'm actually thinking of using my outdoor shower near the spa daily, to avoid mold buildup in my bathroom. I just made a little spray bottle with a strong solution of xylitol only, and I'm going to use it regularly to see if I get better results. Biofilm at 11. ;-) Susan i mixed up a batch last night--i irrigate with a neti pot and typically do 4 cups water to 1/2 teaspoon salt. last night, using the mixture from the "biofilms" thread (3 tablespoons or 45 ml of 100% pure xylitol in 250 ml of water) i caluculated that i would need over 9 tablespoons of xylitol (4 cup [US] = 946.352 95 milliliter). i used about 8 tablespoons. it burned like crazy without the salt. afterwards, i brought up lots of thick clear jelly-like mucous but it seems to me that i was bringing up what i was putting in. was i creating this mucous with the xylitol mixture? this lasted for hours. when i lay down to go to sleep more came out --- "steeping?" and i ended up irrigating with my salt misture to try to push the stuff out. did i use too much? what exactly is meant by irrigating from the people who use xylitol? is the irrigation method a neti pot, hydropulse or is it just a spray bottle squirt? > i mixed up a batch last night--i irrigate with a neti pot and typically do > 4 cups water to 1/2 teaspoon salt. last night, using the mixture from the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I don't know what was happening in your case, but I can tell you that after irrigating with a less concentrated xylitol solution, I had minimal discomfort (not quite burning) and that thicker gunk came out than usual. I just ordered 3lbs of xylitol from my usual online low carb source (I bake with it, too). I think I'll continue using it, but perhaps in a spray bottle and additive to my homemade saline mixture. Susan I tried this again.. this time making a 20% xylitol solution which filled up one neti pot. after 1/2 hour or so i followed up with my usual 4 netis of saline. a few hours later i was still snorting up sugar-tasting gobs. i will probably continue for a while but I'm not convinced. isn't it possible that the gobs of this sugary clear thick jelly like stuff is just what is being deposited by the xylitol mixture and sticking inside until such a time as i snort it out? but Susan did write that within a matter of time gobs with color started to come up...i will continue for a bit. > I tried this again.. this time making a 20% xylitol solution which filled > up one neti pot. after 1/2 hour or so i followed up with my usual 4 netis [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > what is being deposited by the xylitol mixture and sticking inside until > such a time as i snort it out? That thought occurred to me, too. > but Susan did write that within a matter of time gobs with color started > to come up...i will continue for a bit. This is what convinced me of xylitol's utility, but I have reduced the amount of xylitol since the blood episode; I think some of the stuff that followed the stuff mentioned above may've been caused by irritation. I'm now using my usual saline mixture with extra xylitol, but much less concentrated than before. Susan On 7/21/06 7:53 AM, in article 424899b7cd45bf8bb4023ad4622884aa@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com, "loxaluck" > I tried this again.. this time making a 20% xylitol solution which filled > up one neti pot. after 1/2 hour or so i followed up with my usual 4 netis [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I don't think its a good idea to do unknown, untested, unproven experiments on your own body. I know of no evidence that a 20% solution is SAFE. And no one knows what the consequences of this concentration will do to your body. Isotonic saline given IV is wonderful for your health. But the wrong concentration given IV can kill. > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Susan I may be a new convert to the Church of Xylitol. :-) After a month of feeling like crap, and two days of xylitol irrigation (1X) and xylitol spray (numerous times) between irrigations, there is definitely thick gunk instead of watery coming out right after I irrigate (this has never been the case for me in over a year) with saline. Today, for the first time, some more colorful and bloody stuff dislodged. I sprayed with xylitol when I woke up, and Astelin. When I irrigated with saline later, stuff came out that I've sensed but couldn't dislodge for weeks. I guess maybe xylitol really can prevent tooth decay and sinusitis by preventing bugs from stickin' to ya. It tastes better when it seeps down your throat, too. And makes a wickedly good low carb cheesecake. :-) Susan Susan, how did you mix up your xylitol rinse? (I just bought a pound at Whole Foods...) Judy > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Susan > Susan, how did you mix up your xylitol rinse? (I just bought a pound at > Whole Foods...) Embarrassingly imprecisely, I'm sorry to say. I used a funnel to put about a tsp. or more of xylitol into a small (2 oz?) spray bottle, then filled it with very warm water that I'd nuked and shook it. In the irrigator, I think I used about 2 TBS. I can't say I closely followed the OP's instructions, which called for a LOT of xylitol, but my solution is pretty sweet. I'll be really interested to hear if you have similar results. The thick stuff coming out after my later saline irrigation was within one day or the same day I first used xylitol irrigation. I don't know what's best, so I guess I'll alternate irrigating with and spraying xylitol. Susan I have been reading and re-reading the cited article: they initially used xylitol, saline and a mixture of both--but it's unclear what that result produced. The actual study used a very small spray: 250 microliter in each nostril of 5% xylitol, four times a day. The article was addressing the issues of cystic fibrosis, so they did note that increased salt content in mucous (as is present in cystic fibrosis) compromises innate bacterial resistance. I think I need to look at the graphs, but I can't see that the saline/xylitol mix was actually studied. Interesting point, in the discussion, they wrote that the use of xylitol would be in prevention, but not to treat established infection: as it contained BIOFILMS, which are tough to eradicate (if not impossible--this being in reference to pseudomonas in cystic fibrosis.) I copied a sentence from the article: "Although killing was inhibited as ionic strength increased, killing was not affected by an increase in xylitol concentration." So, I don't think there's a need to go above a 5% xylitol solution, although obviously it's helped people who have tried it. Murray Grossan had written to tell me how to create a xylitol solution of 5%: here's his mixture-- To make a 5% solution add two teaspoons to 100 cc of saline. To make a 10% add four teaspoons. So, the article proposed a small spray 250 microliters (I'm very bad at metric conversions: but one mililiter (1 cc in a syringe) =1,000 microliters, so it's like a spray from an astelin bottle or nasal steroid bottle (I'm desperately trying to do the math: my rhinocort bottle has 8.6 gm and each bottle contains 120 sprays which are 32 micrograms--of course this is grams (weight) vs. volume. So, I give up as to what the right amount is, and if saline reduces the efficacy of the xylitol. I've bought Xlear spray, which contains, xylitol (unknown %), saline and grapefruit seed extract as a preservative. I've never found it amazing, but I've never used it regularly. It's in a pump bottle, similar to a steroid or astelin bottle. In previous posts, Murray Grossan talked about adding it to his solution in terms of osmotic amounts, to reproduce the glucose in the lactated ringer's solution. So, I'm not sure it has to be mixed with water (which seems to be painful) vs. some isotonic saline, which should feel better. The article measured bacteria counts after miniscule amounts of %5 solution was administered 4x/day. We've been talking about higher concentrations, and steeping. I think whatever works. Just because a study hasn't been done, doesn't mean it doesn't work. Sorry to ramble. Judy > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Susan > I have been reading and re-reading the cited article: they initially > used xylitol, saline and a mixture of both--but it's unclear what that > result produced. The actual study used a very small spray: 250 > microliter in each nostril of 5% xylitol, four times a day. I'm using about 4 spritzes each time. > The article was addressing the issues of cystic fibrosis, so they did > note that increased salt content in mucous (as is present in cystic > fibrosis) compromises innate bacterial resistance. > I think I need to look at the graphs, but I can't see that the > saline/xylitol mix was actually studied. I did this once, too, and once with just xylitol irrigation. > Interesting point, in the discussion, they wrote that the use of > xylitol would be in prevention, but not to treat established infection: > as it contained BIOFILMS, which are tough to eradicate (if not > impossible--this being in reference to pseudomonas in cystic fibrosis.) I came across this issue in some articles, too. Rabbit studies, in particular. > I copied a sentence from the article: > "Although killing was inhibited as ionic strength increased, killing > was not affected by an increase in xylitol concentration." > So, I don't think there's a need to go above a 5% xylitol solution, > although obviously it's helped people who have tried it. Perhaps it did, but we don't know how many folks've tried both high and low concentrations, right? > Murray Grossan had written to tell me how to create a xylitol > solution of 5%: here's his mixture-- [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > So, I give up as to what the right amount is, and if saline reduces > the efficacy of the xylitol. :-D > I've bought Xlear spray, which contains, xylitol (unknown %), saline > and grapefruit seed extract as a preservative. I've never found it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > solution in terms of osmotic amounts, to reproduce the glucose in the > lactated ringer's solution. I add it to my saline mixture, too, of kosher salt, baking soda, calcium chloride and xylitol. I don't measure precisely anymore. I seem to be making it the same way I cook. > So, I'm not sure it has to be mixed with water (which seems to be > painful) vs. some isotonic saline, which should feel better. I've thought of just boosting the amount I put into my saline mixture. > The article measured bacteria counts after miniscule amounts of %5 > solution was administered 4x/day. > We've been talking about higher concentrations, and steeping. > I think whatever works. Just because a study hasn't been done, > doesn't mean it doesn't work. Yeah, I care foremost about my results, though it'd be nice to have more than one guy's anecdote. :-/ I hope my results of the last few days aren't just a fluke. > Sorry to ramble. Judy, I find your research and your thinking out loud about this stuff to be very helpful and informative, and I'm so glad you're here to do it. Susan I tried all sorts of combinations of saline and xylitol and found that saline and xylitol was very uncomfortable in my sinuses. After experimenting, what works best for me is approximately 9-10% xylitol solution(no salt) kept in my sinuses for several minutes. I too have lots of gunk (thick mucous) that comes out. When I use isotonic saline I don't get the mucous like I get when using xylitol. Geoff > I tried all sorts of combinations of saline and xylitol and found that > saline and xylitol was very uncomfortable in my sinuses. I find the combination to be more comfortable. Go figure. After > experimenting, what works best for me is approximately 9-10% xylitol > solution(no salt) kept in my sinuses for several minutes. More like all day for me! I too have > lots of gunk (thick mucous) that comes out. When I use isotonic saline > I don't get the mucous like I get when using xylitol. Geoff I don't have lots, I have very little. But before I used xylitol I wasn't getting anything thick ever, pretty much. Just feeling gunk come out at all after irrigating, for a change, was VERY satisfying, even if the quantity was minute. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Susan A follow up on my continued xylitol experimentation. Last night I sprayed with my very concentrated xylitol spray just before bed. About an hour later, I had a sense of some congestion and intermittent dripping. I started sort of doing what I call snarfing as I lay in bed, and gobs of stuff plus sweet solution started draining into my throat, nearly choking me. Then my right side felt more open and clear than it has in months. But... this a.m., I blew my nose and some clotted blood came out of both sides, and I'm not sure if this is from clearing infection or from irritating my passages with the concentrated spray, since I had a similar experience with Rhinocort, blood in increasing amounts. Some came out of each side with my a.m. saline irrigation, too. I *think* the xylitol loosened up the crud, but I also suspect that I should use a lot less of it for the benefit without potential irritation. I used the spray before my saline irrigation this a.m., too. Doing this about a half hour to hour before irrigation seems to get more out each time I do it. I just want to make sure that none of what I'm getting out has been generated by the xylitol. My sinuses feel clearer than they have in weeks. Susan Susan, do you just make a small amount of xylitol solution (what %?) and put it in a spray bottle? It does sound as though it was tough on your mucosa to have the high concentration there. I"m sure there's no one "right" way to irrigate, or what to irrigate with, but I think we're figuring things out here. (I know an ENT whose patient reportedly got good results with coffee in the neti pot: so he tried it and said it gave him foul breath, and no benefit he could tell...I give him high points for giving it a try.) Judy > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Susan > Susan, do you just make a small amount of xylitol solution (what %?) > and put it in a spray bottle? It does sound as though it was tough on > your mucosa to have the high concentration there. I agree; I just dumped it out and added additional xylitol to my routine irrigation solution, which now tastes slightly sweet. > I"m sure there's no one "right" way to irrigate, or what to irrigate > with, but I think we're figuring things out here. Yup, and I think you're right that I irritated my tissues with that concentration. > (I know an ENT whose patient reportedly got good results with coffee > in the neti pot: so he tried it and said it gave him foul breath, and > no benefit he could tell...I give him high points for giving it a try.) Ooh, I LOVE coffee! Another way to have it! :-) Susan On 7/18/06 3:16 PM, in article 1153260980.436875.185590@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, > I tried all sorts of combinations of saline and xylitol and found that > saline and xylitol was very uncomfortable in my sinuses. After > experimenting, what works best for me is approximately 9-10% xylitol > solution(no salt) kept in my sinuses for several minutes. I too have > lots of gunk (thick mucous) that comes out. When I use isotonic saline > I don't get the mucous like I get when using xylitol. Geoff We find a 5% xylitol in normal saline to be acceptable by patients when used via pulsatile irrigation - about 100 cc. > After a month of feeling like crap, and two days of xylitol irrigation > (1X) and xylitol spray (numerous times) between irrigations, there is > definitely thick gunk instead of watery coming out right after I irrigate > (this has never been the case for me in over a year) with saline. Today, > for the first time, some more colorful and bloody stuff dislodged. Susan, couldn't it be that the xylitol is irritating your mucous membranes, causing them to produce more "thick gunk"? That is not necessarily a positive sign. I always have tons of "thick gunk" come out when I irrigate, and I don't consider that positive at all!
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