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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / July 2006

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Newbie: Cleaning in-house air? How??

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BigBen - 05 Jul 2006 01:41 GMT
Hi All,

I do suffer from sinusitis, more recently from alergic rhinitis, and
can understand the idea of cleaning in-house air: isn't thair air
oustide more polluted?

What is there in the in-house air that makes it so bad?

It turns out, that I've worked from home for about 15 years, and
recently my wife had to stop working "away from home", and she claims
she now has a lot more sinus problems than before... This is what made
me seriously curious about in-jouse air quality.

So, what anyone who's been there, done that, can teach this newbie?
Please?

PS - I live near a faily busy road, and the idea of opening the
windows of the house that tyurn to that road, makes me wonder if I'm
improving, or deteriorating even further the air in my house.

TIA,
jbr
Don Brady - 05 Jul 2006 03:08 GMT
>Hi All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>windows of the house that tyurn to that road, makes me wonder if I'm
>improving, or deteriorating even further the air in my house.

In some cases indoor air is better, in some cases outdooe air.

It depends where you live, what you are allergic to, the season, etc.
BigBen - 05 Jul 2006 19:06 GMT
>It depends where you live, what you are allergic to, the season, etc.

Well, I think I'm alergic to... air, all year long.

jbr
Don Brady - 05 Jul 2006 23:26 GMT
>>It depends where you live, what you are allergic to, the season, etc.
>
>Well, I think I'm alergic to... air, all year long.

It has to be specific allergens or else irritants or pollution in the air.
BigBen - 06 Jul 2006 19:00 GMT
>It has to be specific allergens or else irritants or pollution in the air.

I know ... but it seems it's always present!

jbr
Steven L. - 05 Jul 2006 03:42 GMT
> Hi All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> she now has a lot more sinus problems than before... This is what made
> me seriously curious about in-jouse air quality.

Before I get to indoor air quality, it's also possible that the outdoor
air around your home is more polluted than the outdoor air where she
used to work.  The website www.scorecard.org gives the air pollution
levels in your neighborhood, right from the EPA monitoring stations.
Just enter your Zip code where it asks you to.

> So, what anyone who's been there, done that, can teach this newbie?
> Please?

The EPA has said that indoor air can be up to 100 times more polluted
than outdoor air.  Common culprits for people who work at home include:

Wall-to-wall carpeting.  Traps dust and pollen.  Keeping the carpet
absolutely clean is nearly impossible.  Get rid of it; get tiles,
linoleum, parquet wood floors, washable throw rugs, etc.

Personal computers, especially desktops.  The static electric charge
that builds up, attracts dust and pollen like a magnet, and then when we
use the computer we stick our faces right next to it and breathe all
that in.  Laser printers outgas fumes from the toner.  Always use your
printer in a well-ventilated area.

Various household chemicals.  Carpet adhesive, paint, and formaldehyde
resins outgassing from particleboard and plywood.

Hidden mold.  Mold can be growing inside your refrigerator, underneath
your carpet, etc.  There's a book, "My House Is Killing Me!" written by
a home inspector, that discusses how to find such things and correct them.

Pests.  Some people are allergic to cockroaches or other pests.

> PS - I live near a faily busy road, and the idea of opening the
> windows of the house that tyurn to that road, makes me wonder if I'm
> improving, or deteriorating even further the air in my house.

Pollution from passing vehicles can travel some 30 feet away from the
road before dissipating.

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Susan - 05 Jul 2006 03:50 GMT
> Hidden mold.  Mold can be growing inside your refrigerator, underneath
> your carpet, etc.  There's a book, "My House Is Killing Me!" written by
> a home inspector, that discusses how to find such things and correct them.

Sometimes it's hiding in plain site, invisibly.  Two days ago I woke to
yet another sinus induced migraine complete with vomiting due to the
mold that grows invisibly in my master bathroom.  Even though I spray
the entire shower area with an alchohol/vinegar solution daily, if I
don't scrub the walls, floor and ceiling with bleach solution at least
weekly, I get sinus congestion, PND and, ultimately, migraine and
puking.  The mold isn't visible, no creeping mildewy stuff nor any
smell, other than vinegar.  Still, where there's moisture, there's mold,
and my bathroom is growing one that I'm horribly reactive to.

Susan
BigBen - 05 Jul 2006 19:20 GMT
>mold that grows invisibly in my master bathroom.  Even though I spray

That I think I do have in my shwer area...

>don't scrub the walls, floor and ceiling with bleach solution at least

Bleach?? If my wife is using that, in the 3rd floor where we live,
can smell it as soon as I enter the building, on the ground floor. If
I go home then, I'm garanteed to have a migraine for the rest of day.

Thanks for the hint!

jbr
Susan - 05 Jul 2006 20:03 GMT
> Bleach?? If my wife is using that, in the 3rd floor where we live,
> can smell it as soon as I enter the building, on the ground floor. If
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> jbr

You could try a strong white vinegar solution instead.

Susan
BigBen - 06 Jul 2006 19:01 GMT
>You could try a strong white vinegar solution instead.

OK, I can deal well with vinegar.

Thanks!

jbr
Susan - 06 Jul 2006 21:55 GMT
>>You could try a strong white vinegar solution instead.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> jbr

My house cleaner told me today that she used vinegar with baking soda on
someone's extremely moldy shower and it was extremely effective.

HTH,

Susan
Steven L. - 05 Jul 2006 19:20 GMT
> Sometimes it's hiding in plain site, invisibly.  Two days ago I woke to
> yet another sinus induced migraine complete with vomiting due to the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> weekly, I get sinus congestion, PND and, ultimately, migraine and
> puking.  

How can you use bleach solution on your walls and ceiling without
damaging the paint finish???

And that raises another hidden source of mold:  Air conditioner units
and climate control duct work.  Condensation causes mold to grow in
those, and a thorough cleaning yearly is suggested.

Signature

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Susan - 05 Jul 2006 20:05 GMT
> How can you use bleach solution on your walls and ceiling without
> damaging the paint finish???

The walls and ceiling in the shower area are tile.  The rest is glossy
latex paint, and no damage has occurred so far.

> And that raises another hidden source of mold:  Air conditioner units
> and climate control duct work.  Condensation causes mold to grow in
> those, and a thorough cleaning yearly is suggested.

At least yearly!  And Filtrete filters in every outlet.

Susan
judy.n - 05 Jul 2006 21:10 GMT
Susan,
 I feel like I am running a constant battle against mold. We live near
the water, in a humid area, have a lot of trees on the lot, and in this
high humidity, I have to use bleach. Everyone in the house is migraine
prone, but also sinus prone as well. I run HEPA filters, have gotten
rid of almost all the carpets, have to clean out the closets, bought a
mold-zapper (a small heater meant for marine use), used anti-mildew
additive when we repainted, buy "environmentally safe" cleaners, avoid
fragrences, use fans--and I still am the queen of bleach.
 I agree the fumes are horrible, but so is the mold.
 Ironically, the basement, with 2 dehumidifiers, is down to 45%
humidity: the upstairs, where we haven't used the window AC much, runs
around 70-80% humidity in the last few weeks.
 It's a constant battle.
Judy
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan - 05 Jul 2006 22:04 GMT
> Susan,
>   I feel like I am running a constant battle against mold. We live near
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> around 70-80% humidity in the last few weeks.
>   It's a constant battle.

Judy, we must be neighbors.  :-)  On top of sharing all the above, we
moved into this house built into a hill that drains toward the house,
keeping the sill plate wet and the (unfinished) basement walls damp.  In
heavy rains, I see water on my basement floor.  Fortunately, there's a
drain in the floor and I have a fabulous new dehumidifier with a hose
continuously draining into the hole in the floor; it's a Soleus.  I read
reviews, and it really is all that much better than any other I've ever
used.  I run a large HEPA air cleaner in my bedroom, and my cleaning
woman knows to do guerilla warfare with dust and mold, too, behind
hanging pictures, mirrors, tops of moldings, etc...  Cleaning closets is
key to dust control, too, I've found.

I am Bleach royalty, myself.  ;-)

Our garage is built into the hill, it's earth on 3 sides, and so damp as
to be useless for storage; there's a big black slimy mold slick on the
floor of it.  My allergy shots have helped a LOT with that mold and
whatever may be in the basement, but not with the invisible stuff in my
bathroom.  I wonder if I can grow some in a dish and have my allergist
test me for whatever it is and add it to my shots?

I live on Long Island; water everywhere.  I live on the north shore,
wooded.  My property has no lawn, it's hilly, covered with ivy and, you
guess it, lots of moldy leaf litter underneath it.

But my bathroom, no matter how clean, does me in every time.

Susan
Steven L. - 06 Jul 2006 01:40 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> bathroom.  I wonder if I can grow some in a dish and have my allergist
> test me for whatever it is and add it to my shots?

No, but you can hire a professional certified industrial hygienist who
can take samples and culture them for you:  both mold and bacteria.
This may cost you around $500 - $1000.

http://www.abih.org/

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Steven D. Litvintchouk
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Susan - 06 Jul 2006 15:57 GMT
> No, but you can hire a professional certified industrial hygienist who
> can take samples and culture them for you:  both mold and bacteria. This
> may cost you around $500 - $1000.
>
> http://www.abih.org/

But why couldn't I take a sterile swab and grow my own mold on an agar
plate or other medium?

Susan
Steven L. - 07 Jul 2006 03:26 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> But why couldn't I take a sterile swab and grow my own mold on an agar
> plate or other medium?

No one is stopping you or one of your kids from doing your very own
Science Fair project.  But it's not going to give you professional
results.  An industrial hygienist can take samples of standard sizes so
as to compare the mold spore counts.  He or she can take steps to avoid
contamination to be sure of an accurate reading.  And they can grow the
culture on a variety of media that are tailored for molds.

Sure, if you want to research all that yourself, go right ahead.

Signature

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hhggffdd - 07 Jul 2006 04:06 GMT
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Sure, if you want to research all that yourself, go right ahead.

I bought a kit similar to this...

http://www.homemoldtestkits.com/google.html

...at the local hardware store for under $10.  They will type
the molds.  I can't speak for the reliability of that company
at that link however.
judy.n - 06 Jul 2006 15:30 GMT
Susan, I live in RI, but it sounds so familiar. My daughter had a
horrible flare of sinusitis and asthma this last year when she moved
into a new dorm room near Boston: the mattress was ancient, there was
ivy on the walls, and her exposed brick wall (very 70's architecture)
was adjacent to the moldy bathroom. She's had mild asthma since
childhood, and in 48 hours ended up in the ER. The allergist had us
replace the mattress with a new, plastic encased one--I'd put dust mite
encasings on, but they're useless against such a moldly mattress. She
started on shots again, and discoved an IgA deficiency--but had
intractable sinusitis all year.
 She saw Peter Catalano at Lahey, and he recommended surgery, but she
wants to wait, as she moved into an apartment with no carpets, and
started low dose biaxin (from her local ENT.)
 So, now, I'm wondering about our mattresses....they've always had
dust mite encasings, but, that mold is crafty and ubiquitious.
 I got home last night and discovered mold on the outside of the
fridge--it's a neverending battle.
Judy
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan - 06 Jul 2006 15:54 GMT
> Susan, I live in RI, but it sounds so familiar. My daughter had a
> horrible flare of sinusitis and asthma this last year when she moved
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>   I got home last night and discovered mold on the outside of the
> fridge--it's a neverending battle.

Dorm rooms are like living in Petri dishes, aren't they??!

Judy, there's a warming device inside of your fridge that may be broken;
it's specifically there to warm the exterior just enough to keep it dry.
You might want to consider a service call?

As to mattresses, I sleep on a 100% natural latex mattress made by the
Talalay process.  It's the most comfortable bed in the world, bar none,
and it's inhospitable to mold and dust mites.  I have a vinyl encasing
on the solid foundation (you don't want springs under latex) and a
microfiber one on the mattress and latex pillows.  I take my latex
pillow with me every where I travel, can't sleep without it.  Hotel beds
are a problem for me due to dust mites.

I'm still wondering if the doxy I take has a similar anti-inflammatory
effect to low dose macrolides, which really don't agree with me, nor
treat my TBDs.

Susan
judy.n - 06 Jul 2006 21:21 GMT
Susan,
 Thanks for all the good advice.
 To my knowledge,the doxycycline hasn't been studied as much as the
14, 15 member ring macrolides, but there is precedent in the dental
world. They use 20 mg of doxycycline for gum disease at a twice daily
dosage and the mechanism isn't antimicrobial, but it prevents plaque
adhesion without disturbing the good flora. I read one article about
using that dosage for acne, and it worked, and the theory was again
anti-inflammatory. I should run a pubmed search. I think you take it at
a higher dosage, but that shouldn't decrease the anti-inflammatory
properties, just possibly change the flora more.
 We actually need a new mattress. And I would love a comfortable one,
that didn't grow mold or dust mites.
 I think I saw a recent advertisement for your dehumidifier, and it
looked powerful.
Judy
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan - 06 Jul 2006 21:58 GMT
> Susan,
>   Thanks for all the good advice.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> a higher dosage, but that shouldn't decrease the anti-inflammatory
> properties, just possibly change the flora more.

It sure doesn't treat the infection in my sinuses, but may help a bit.
Honestly, it seems that the presence or absence of bathroom mold is the
whole ballgame for me right now; I have got to identify what it is.

>   We actually need a new mattress. And I would love a comfortable one,
> that didn't grow mold or dust mites.

I think SpringAir makes a latex mattress, though not one I would buy.
Still, Sleepy's carries it, so you might get to try one out.  I bought
mine online, medium density 100% natural Talalay latex (some are mixed
with synthetic foam).

>   I think I saw a recent advertisement for your dehumidifier, and it
> looked powerful.
> Judy

It is incredibly powerful, yet silent and very efficient.  I bought the
littler one, and it's doing an incredible job downstairs.

Susan
Steven L. - 06 Jul 2006 01:59 GMT
> Susan,
>   I feel like I am running a constant battle against mold. We live near
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> around 70-80% humidity in the last few weeks.
>   It's a constant battle.

If you haven't heard about this before, you might get a laugh or two out
of it:

Space Fungus Gets Scientists' Attention
Fungus Is Everywhere    

You might not expect to find mold and mildew in a brand new space
station. But that's just what scientists are worried about. What
problems can common fungus cause for the next generation of astronauts?

It was a discovery that matched the exotic with the commonplace, the
extraterrestrial with the earthly. An astronaut peering out of Russia's
Mir space station 12 years ago found the view blocked by a layer of
fungus growing on the inside of the window.

The fungus had arrived from Earth, probably attached to the human
travelers occupying Mir. As it multiplied rapidly and even began
"eating" the equipment on the space station, scientists started thinking
seriously about dangers they had not anticipated. Fungus is a part of
everyday life on Earth, but who would have thought that it could affect
the advanced machinery hurtling through such an inhospitable environment
as outer space?

http://www.riverdeep.net/current/2000/10/101900_spacemold.jhtml

"Major spring clean on International Space Station
Apr 15, 2006, 14:34 GMT
Moscow - The astronauts and cosmonauts living on the International Space
Station (ISS) announced Saturday that they would be carrying out a major
spring clean on the station.
"Russian Commander Pavel Vinogradov and US Station Engineer Jeffrey
Williams planned to clean dust and mould from a 100-square-metre surface
area of the station on Saturday, Russia's Itar-Tass news agency quoted
mission control spokesman Valeri Lyndin as saying in Moscow."

http://science.monstersandcritics.com/news/article_1155598.php

So don't feel bad about where you're living.  The astronauts can't get
away from mold and mildew even in outer space.   :-)

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Alison Chaiken - 05 Jul 2006 04:49 GMT
> Laser printers outgas fumes from the toner.

Actually the problem is ozone from the high voltage, same as in an
ionic "air cleaner."

> Always use your printer in a well-ventilated area.

That part we all agree with.

Signature

Alison Chaiken            "From:" address above is valid.
(650) 236-2231 [daytime]    http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/
We can all look back with nostalgia to the days when the only torture
going on in Cuba was perpetrated by Cubans.

BigBen - 05 Jul 2006 19:24 GMT
>> Always use your printer in a well-ventilated area.
>
>That part we all agree with.

I assume that's limited to laser printers, right? I do remember  the
smell of the laser printer I used to have, but I never noticed any
particular smell from both the ink jets I've had.

Please tell me I don't need to find a way to move my inkjet - it's
just 2 feet away from where I'm sitting :-P

jbr

PS -  Can window curtains be a problem too, just like carpets??
Alison Chaiken - 06 Jul 2006 05:25 GMT
> I assume that's limited to laser printers, right? I do remember the
> smell of the laser printer I used to have, but I never noticed any
> particular smell from both the ink jets I've had.

Inkjets should be okay: unlike laserjets and ionic air cleaners, they
do not generate ozone.

Disclaimer: I do work for HP but we sell both.

> Can window curtains be a problem too, just like carpets??

Dust is dumb and doesn't know the difference.

Signature

Alison Chaiken            "From:" address above is valid.
(650) 236-2231 [daytime]    http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/
We can all look back with nostalgia to the days when the only torture
going on in Cuba was perpetrated by Cubans.

Steven L. - 07 Jul 2006 22:57 GMT
>>> Always use your printer in a well-ventilated area.
>> That part we all agree with.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Please tell me I don't need to find a way to move my inkjet - it's
> just 2 feet away from where I'm sitting :-P

AFAIK, inkjets are safe because the ink is sprayed directly onto the
paper, and ozone emissions are nil.

> PS -  Can window curtains be a problem too, just like carpets??

Any woven surface can be a problem.  That means cloth curtains, carpets,
 etc.  But unlike carpets, window curtains can and should be laundered
regularly.

If you want to avoid regular laundering, get plastic window shades or
venetian blinds.

Signature

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Susan - 08 Jul 2006 04:34 GMT
>>>> Always use your printer in a well-ventilated area.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> If you want to avoid regular laundering, get plastic window shades or
> venetian blinds.

Laundering is much easier to do than keeping horizontal blinds free of
dust.  I mean, MUCH, easier.

Susan
BigBen - 05 Jul 2006 19:15 GMT
>Just enter your Zip code where it asks you to.

Steven, I live in Portugal ...

>Wall-to-wall carpeting.  Traps dust and pollen.  Keeping the carpet
>absolutely clean is nearly impossible.  Get rid of it; get tiles,
>linoleum, parquet wood floors, washable throw rugs, etc.

Done! Only one room in the house still has carpet, and I spend very
little time there

>Personal computers, especially desktops.  The static electric charge
>that builds up, attracts dust and pollen like a magnet, and then when we
>use the computer we stick our faces right next to it and breathe all
>that in.  Laser printers outgas fumes from the toner.  Always use your
>printer in a well-ventilated area.

Oh dear! I'm a translator. Spend all day long in front of 2 LCD
monitors.
Laser printer has gone - now using inkjet, but just might have to get
one... or maybe not, if I can save on the sinus pills what I'll spend
in ink cartridges ;-)

>Various household chemicals.  Carpet adhesive, paint, and formaldehyde
>resins outgassing from particleboard and plywood.

Come one, my house was painted was water washable paint. What else can
I do about my walls?

>Hidden mold.  Mold can be growing inside your refrigerator, underneath
>your carpet, etc.  There's a book, "My House Is Killing Me!" written by
>a home inspector, that discusses how to find such things and correct them.

Never thought about it... Will investigate, thanks!

>Pests.  Some people are allergic to cockroaches or other pests.

No, thank God, no such animals around here!

>Pollution from passing vehicles can travel some 30 feet away from the
>road before dissipating.

Well, considering 30 feet is about 9 meters ... I guess my house is
about 18 meters away from the road, I live in the 4th floor, but it's
juts about always windy around here. What gives??

Thanks!
jbr
 
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