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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / March 2006

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Peroxide Irrigation

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lrhone11 - 23 Mar 2006 14:33 GMT
I have read that some people use peroxide in their water piks - (a
dilute solution), what is the groups feeling about adding this to
irrigation?  I have never done it.  Has anyone else and what were the
results?
Susan - 23 Mar 2006 15:21 GMT
> I have read that some people use peroxide in their water piks - (a
> dilute solution), what is the groups feeling about adding this to
> irrigation?  I have never done it.  Has anyone else and what were the
> results?

I don't believe there is a group consensus.  I diluted two capfuls in my
irrigator (2 cups water) and it helped a lot more than saline alone,
though it made the back of my skull feel as if it would blow apart.

I've since used a capful instead, though not regularly.  You sure
wouldn't want to do it more than once a week or so; it really can make
the tissues raw.

Susan
tyshock - 23 Mar 2006 18:29 GMT
My experiences were similar to Susan's.  I would only recommend it if
you are sure you have an infection going on.  I think it's too harsh to
be used for 'maintainence'.

Tyler
lrhone11 - 23 Mar 2006 22:47 GMT
Thanks for the heads up.
dave - 23 Mar 2006 23:33 GMT
http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=129210

This guy has mastered the art of sinus irrigation with peroxide.

I have done it a few times, and I liked it.  My Allergist has me using
Pulmicort Respuls (sp) with saline and doing a flush.  8 cc's of saline
and 2 cc's of the Pulmicort.  I can actually breathe again.
It is a new therapy and is absolutely amazing.  I haven't been able to
smell for years, and a day and a half into this process, and I'm a new
person.
dave - 23 Mar 2006 23:40 GMT
I almost forgot.  The pulmicort/saline rinse got rid of my nasal
polyps.
I was blown away when my Dr told me that they were gone.
This tx is amazing.

I'll put a post up so others can ask ther Dr about this.
Andy - 23 Mar 2006 23:35 GMT
> I have read that some people use peroxide in their water piks - (a
> dilute solution), what is the groups feeling about adding this to
> irrigation?  I have never done it.  Has anyone else and what were the
> results?

I've never used hydrogen peroxide in my saline rinse.  However, several
years ago, the inside of my nose was getting really irritated because my
allergies were going overtime and I was having to constantly blow my
nose.  I thought to myself, I'll put a couple drops of peroxide in there
to start it healing.  Holy big head explosion, Batman!  I didn't put
much in at all, but wow, it totally crumpled me.  All I'm saying is...be
careful with the stuff.
Steven L. - 24 Mar 2006 02:38 GMT
> I have read that some people use peroxide in their water piks - (a
> dilute solution), what is the groups feeling about adding this to
> irrigation?  I have never done it.  Has anyone else and what were the
> results?

You should search the Google archive of this NG for posts by "Cando",
who was a big promoter of "upside-down flooding" with dilute H2O2, for
his recommended method.

Personally, I've never been comfortable with the idea, and I told
"Cando" why:  We don't know what the long-term effect of using that
stuff in your upper respiratory tract will do.  We do know that other
substances, like tobacco smoke, cocaine, and even gentamicin irrigation,
can have serious effects over the long haul that aren't noticeable in
just a few days.

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net

Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

lrhone11 - 24 Mar 2006 15:14 GMT
Very interesting information.  My ENT is currently investigating Xolair
and it's effects on chronic sinusitis, I think he got a grant from
Aventis (?).  Pulmicort is a lot cheaper than Xolair and if it works
that is awesome.  I am interested in learning what is working for
people.

I am 6 months post op for a 4th FESS.  However this time I had Image
Guided Surgery.  My sinuses feel better than they ever have in the past
post surgery.  I am also taking high does of Zantac in addition to my
regular Zyrtec and Singlair to control allergies.  MD Anderson and my
Allergist in Chicago recomended 300 mg of Zantac 2x day to control my
food allergy sensitivies and I think it is really working. I also have
GERD - so it treats that too with little side effects. - My headaches
are nearly non-existant - AT THIS POINT.  I don't want to "jinx" myself.
Susan - 24 Mar 2006 16:18 GMT
> Very interesting information.  My ENT is currently investigating Xolair
> and it's effects on chronic sinusitis, I think he got a grant from
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> GERD - so it treats that too with little side effects. - My headaches
> are nearly non-existant - AT THIS POINT.  I don't want to "jinx" myself.

Have you considered dropping starches from your diet to see if it stops
your GERD?  Anecdotally, this is an effect most folks notice when they
drop them for other reasons, same with IBS.

Some folks use the Specificic Carbohydrate Diet, but most improve just
by eliminating starches.

Susan
lrhone11 - 24 Mar 2006 19:43 GMT
No I haven't, however I am having problems with IBS and I just did some
testing and found out that I am allergic to tomatoes, garlic, beef,
potato's, yeast...blah, blah, blah...anyway I seeing a nutritionist
next week and I have a long list of things to talk to her about.  So
maybe I am heading toward something like that.  Is the diet called
Specific Carbohydrate Diet?
Susan - 24 Mar 2006 19:47 GMT
> No I haven't, however I am having problems with IBS and I just did some
> testing and found out that I am allergic to tomatoes, garlic, beef,
> potato's, yeast...blah, blah, blah...anyway I seeing a nutritionist
> next week and I have a long list of things to talk to her about.  So
> maybe I am heading toward something like that.  Is the diet called
> Specific Carbohydrate Diet?

See it here:  scdiet.org

It's easy to just cut out starches and see how that works for you.  An
easier diet to follow is Protein Power, and it's the only popular diet
book I know of that is scientifically accurate without the usual error,
inaccuracies and misrepresentations.  You may find you have a much
shorter list, or no list at all.

Susan
Don Brady - 24 Mar 2006 20:49 GMT
>Specific Carbohydrate Diet

This is unproven and experimental though, even for Crohn's, and has risks.

http://www.ccfa.org/about/news/scd
Susan - 24 Mar 2006 20:57 GMT
>>Specific Carbohydrate Diet
>
> This is unproven and experimental though, even for Crohn's, and has risks.
>
> http://www.ccfa.org/about/news/scd

There are absolutely zero health risks involved in reducing starch
consumption and replacing it with leafy vegetables and fruits, and many
benefits.

Because you're not clear on what a carbohyrdate actually is, let's start
here, on page 6.  Though it's about diabetes, the carb definition is
very plain language:

Background: Over the past several years our research group has taken a
systematic,
comprehensive approach to determining the effects on body function
(hormonal
and nonhormonal)
of varying the amounts and types of proteins, carbohydrates and fats in the
diet. We have been particularly interested in the dietary management of
type
2 diabetes.
Our objective has been to develop a diet for people with type 2 diabetes
that does not
require weight loss, oral agents, or insulin, but that still controls the
blood glucose
concentration. Our overall goal is to enable the person with type 2
diabetes
to control
their blood glucose by adjustment in the composition rather than the amount
of food in
their diet.
Methods: This paper is a brief summary and review of our recent
diet-related
research,
and the rationale used in the development of diets that potentially are
useful in the
treatment of diabetes.
Results: We determined that, of the carbohydrates present in the diet,
absorbed glucose
is largely responsible for the food-induced increase in blood glucose
concentration. We
also determined that dietary protein increases insulin secretion and lowers
blood glucose.
Fat does not significantly affect blood glucose, but can affect insulin
secretion and
modify the absorption of carbohydrates. Based on these data, we tested the
efficacy of
diets with various protein:carbohydrate:fat ratios for 5 weeks on blood
glucose control in
people with untreated type 2 diabetes. The results were compared to those
obtained in
the same subjects after 5 weeks on a control diet with a
protein:carbohydrate:fat ratio of
15:55:30. A 30:40:30 ratio diet resulted in a moderate but significant
decrease in 24-hour
integrated glucose area and % total glycohemoglobin (%tGHb). A 30:20:50
ratio diet
resulted in a 38% decrease in 24-hour glucose area, a reduction in fasting
glucose to near
normal and a decrease in %tGHb from 9.8% to 7.6%. The response to a
30:30:40
ratio
diet was similar.
Conclusion: Altering the diet composition could be a patient-empowering
method of
improving the hyperglycemia of type 2 diabetes without weight loss or
pharmacologic
intervention.

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-3-16.pdf

Susan
Don Brady - 24 Mar 2006 21:22 GMT
>>>Specific Carbohydrate Diet
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>consumption and replacing it with leafy vegetables and fruits, and many
>benefits.

I was not referring to that, but rather referring specifically to the Specific
Carbohydrate Diet you mentioned and referring specifically to the risks listed
at http://www.ccfa.org/about/news/scd :

=======

But he's also concerned about the potential for nutritional deficiencies on the
diet.

Excluding starchy vegetables and grains eliminates dietary sources of
short-chain fatty acids, the preferred fuel source for colon cells, he says.
"This is important because without that fuel source, those cells don't function
as well." In fact, he notes, in a condition called diversion colitis, which
sometimes occurs in any remaining colon after a colectomy, colon cells are
depleted of short-chain fatty acids. Restoring those nutrients through an enema
cures the diversion colitis. "Thus," he says, "this diet could make the colitis
worse. To exclude the dietary source of short-chain fatty acids without a
compelling reason just doesn't make sense to me."

The SCD does change the intestinal flora, Dr. Heller adds, but there may be
less extreme ways of doing the same thing. Many of his own patients do well on
probiotics, antibiotics, and moderate changes in diet – treatments he feels are
at least as effective as the SCD and far less intrusive into a person's
lifestyle.

Dr. Loftus' concern is that the low-calorie diet might create additional
problems for a patient who is already underweight, something he's seen in the
past. However, he notes, like most Americans today, IBD patients are
increasingly overweight, so that's probably not going to be a major problem –
at least not in adults. But when it comes to kids, a different picture emerges.

Athos Bousvaros, M.D., Associate Director of the IBD Center at Children's
Hospital in Boston, thinks the diet, while difficult to follow, is probably
safe. However, there is a risk that the SCD may not provide the calories
children need to grow and thrive. Calorie issues are more important than
vitamin issues, he believes. You can give a child a multivitamin supplement to
prevent deficiencies, but it can be challenging for a child to get enough
calories on such a restrictive diet.

"If you do decide to put your child on the diet," he says, "do it under the
guidance of an experienced nutritionist. Decide on a reasonable time frame –
say, three to four months – and don't do anything else new for the duration of
that period." That way, if your child's condition improves, you can be
reasonably sure that the diet is associated with that improvement.

Dr. Bousvaros warns, however, that imposing such a restrictive diet on a child
could be psychologically stressful. "Kids with IBD are already probably taking
15-20 pills a day," he says. "Now you're telling them they can't eat what they
like? That takes a toll on a child, and it could also fuel family tensions. To
avoid needless stress all around, it's important that parents and child agree
before taking on the diet as a family project. And remember to do so only under
medical supervision."

"Most doctors will condone the diet as long as the patient continues to be
monitored," adds Dr. Heller. In other words, don't start the diet and stop
other medical treatment. Unfortunately, he says, that often happens: "Patients
start the diet and then stop their medicine without the doctor knowing."

Still, he says, the diet "may be worth a try." After all, he notes, there are
much worse diets being touted in cyberspace and elsewhere. "But don't abandon
your conventional treatment," he warns, "and keep in touch with your doctor."

Dr. Loftus concurs. "From what I've read, it sounds like it would be awfully
difficult to follow. For instance, you couldn't eat any processed foods because
they all have carbs in them. But there may be something to it. It's not
unreasonable for motivated patients to give it a try."
lrhone11 - 24 Mar 2006 21:28 GMT
I am impressed......
Susan - 24 Mar 2006 21:41 GMT
> But he's also concerned about the potential for nutritional deficiencies on the
> diet.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> worse. To exclude the dietary source of short-chain fatty acids without a
> compelling reason just doesn't make sense to me."

First of all, I recommended the Protein Power plan for eating, and the
scdiet.org for information on starch and digestive problems.

Second; he's wrong.

There is absolutely no starch requirement in human biochemistry, despite
some folks' pet theories.

Further, if you read my post, I don't think the scdiet is necessary, I
think it's overly complicated and only offered it as a source of info.
The only recommendation I made was for Protein Power.

> The SCD does change the intestinal flora, Dr. Heller adds, but there may be
> less extreme ways of doing the same thing. Many of his own patients do well on
> probiotics, antibiotics, and moderate changes in diet – treatments he feels are
> at least as effective as the SCD and far less intrusive into a person's
> lifestyle.

Much better to take pills than to eat better, huh?

> Dr. Loftus' concern is that the low-calorie diet might create additional
> problems for a patient who is already underweight, something he's seen in the
> past. However, he notes, like most Americans today, IBD patients are
> increasingly overweight, so that's probably not going to be a major problem –
> at least not in adults. But when it comes to kids, a different picture emerges.

Low starch isn't low calorie, Loftus is confused.  Lost calories are
replaced by healthy fats and protein, which is far more critical for
stemming loss of lean body mass. I wonder if these guys, like the
Diabetes Assn., are funded by cereal, drug and sugar corps?

You should be careful before cutting and pasting stuff on a topic you're
unfamiliar with, such as nutrition.

[snip remaining unscientific, speculative bullcrap]

Susan
Don Brady - 24 Mar 2006 21:47 GMT
>First of all, I recommended the Protein Power plan for eating, and the
>scdiet.org for information on starch and digestive problems.

Oh that's  fine  then.   I was just commenting on that diet as such, not on
your overall post.

>You should be careful before cutting and pasting stuff on a topic you're
>unfamiliar with, such as nutrition.

Susan, Susan, Susan.........
Susan - 24 Mar 2006 21:53 GMT
>>First of all, I recommended the Protein Power plan for eating, and the
>>scdiet.org for information on starch and digestive problems.
>
> Oh that's  fine  then.   I was just commenting on that diet as such, not on
> your overall post.

The only thing wrong with the scdiet is that it's unnecessarily
complicated, it's otherwise safe.

Anecdotally, I don't know of anyone whose GERD didn't disappear on low
starch; I noticed this first on the PCOS forum, resolution of GERD, IBS
and depression were among unexpected side benefits of those put on low
carb diets for polycystic ovaries, then with frequent reports on low
carb and diabetes groups.

Susan
Don Brady - 24 Mar 2006 22:00 GMT
>>>First of all, I recommended the Protein Power plan for eating, and the
>>>scdiet.org for information on starch and digestive problems.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>carb diets for polycystic ovaries, then with frequent reports on low
>carb and diabetes groups.

I do not doubt it.

On the other hand, I more or less cured GERD just by eating less frequently and
maybe  little less - of course mine was a mild case to begin with......
Susan - 24 Mar 2006 22:01 GMT
> I do not doubt it.
>
> On the other hand, I more or less cured GERD just by eating less frequently and
> maybe  little less - of course mine was a mild case to begin with......

And I cured my extremely severe infectious case with high dose
antibiotics.  Doesn't change the impact of low starch on those gastric
issues.

Susan
 
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