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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / February 2006Back on the H2O2
I recently slacked off on my irrigation regimen, as my sinuses haven't been too bad for the last 2 or 3 months. ....However, in the last couple of weeks, I started experiencing a little more congestion than usual. ..So I decided to fire up my water-pik, once again, and resume a twice daily irrigation. ...Two weeks later-- no improvement, and nothing was flushed out. So I decided to take another crack with the hydrogen peroxide, as it had helped me in the past. Two days ago, I added a good shot of 3% to my irrigation fluid. Almost immediately, out flushes a couple of gobs of yellow matter. ....I followed this up with just a plain salt solution. Yesterday, I did the same thing. Once again I flushed out a couple more gobs. I have to admit, my sinuses were pretty sore, all last night, but this morning, they don't feel too bad at all. ...I still don't really know exactly what the H2O2 does inside. It may be be the antibiotic qualities, or the bubbles, or just the awful irritation that causes the sinuses to purge themselves, but I know this substance helped to clear my nose, where the salt solution did not. ...Just curious... Has anyone here recently resorted to the H2O2, as did I? ..And did it help? ...Jon I tried about 1 tsp of H2O2 to 8oz saline about a month ago. It stung pretty darn bad and didn't get out any more mucus. Afterwards my sinuses felt irritated and inflammed for about 4-6 hours. Can you be more specific as to your peroxide to water ratio? Also, i find it interesting in your assessment that the irritation might cause the sinuses to purge themselves. I haven't considered that possibility. I definitely know mine were irritated. > I tried about 1 tsp of H2O2 to 8oz saline about a month ago. It stung > pretty darn bad and didn't get out any more mucus. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > might cause the sinuses to purge themselves. I haven't considered that > possibility. I definitely know mine were irritated. Did you add the usual buffered saline or just the peroxide? I sometimes irrigate with a capful of 3% in 16 oz. of saline, and there's not any stinging or irritation at all unless I increase the amount of H202 or do it more than once a week or so. Susan I used salt, water, and H202. I never use any baking soda as I don't have any issues with just salt and water. It sounds like I used at least 2x as much H202 as you. Maybe 3-4x. > I used salt, water, and H202. I never use any baking soda as I don't > have any issues with just salt and water. > > It sounds like I used at least 2x as much H202 as you. Maybe 3-4x. I've done that once. Won't do it again. :-) Susan >>It sounds like I used at least 2x as much >> H202 as you. Maybe 3-4x. > >I've done that once. Won't do it again. :-) I agree with you. I bet the pain I experienced from my sinuses last night would rank right up there with someone who had just underwent a major operation. ...I wouldn't recommend the H2O2 regimen to anyone, simply because of the after effects. ...But I know that the few times I have used it, it has worked. ...Jon >I sometimes irrigate with a capful of 3% in 16 > oz. of saline, and there's not any stinging or > irritation at all unless I increase the amount of > H202 or do it more than once a week or so. I would think you could only water the H2O2 down so much, before its effectivness (if any) would become non-existant. It's sort of like people who pour scotch on a bullet wound (in the movies). ...There's not enough alcohol in this solution to kill any germs, and the cowboy might just as well pee on the wound to have the same cleansing effect.. My line of thinking --and I could be wrong on this-- is you have to get enough of the product in, for its antibiotic properties to become effective. ...But then, like I said in the previous post, the irritation it inflicts on the tissue, probably has the major effect in helping the body to purge the infected material. ..Jon > I would think you could only water the H2O2 down so much, before its > effectivness (if any) would become non-existant. It's sort of like [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > irritation it inflicts on the tissue, probably has the major effect in > helping the body to purge the infected material. ..Jon I definitely feel it, it's just not intense. I also got better improvement from using it than I did from mere saline irrigation. I'm sure more is more effective, but too much made the back of my skull feel like it was gonna blow off. Susan >I'm sure more is more effective, but too much > made the back of my skull feel like it was > gonna blow off. I can relate;-) ..I just wish there was more testing done in this area by the medical community. ...I know Dr. Grossan tends to avoid any H2O2 discussions on the group here.. ...Personally, I was concerned before about (and its been a while here) the hydroxyl ion --or something like that-- with it being a potential carcinogen. ...However, the way I see it is, most people pour the 3% H2O2 directly on a wound, and although I'm no expert on cancer satistics, I bet cancer of the fingers is probably extremely rare. ...Further, the amount used in the sinus irrigation, is at least 10 times less than what one would use on an open wound --so I'm willing to accept some risk. ...In fact, if I knew for sure that the H2O2 would kill the bacteria without permanently harming the sinus tissue, I'd opt for full strength. ...But pain, usually signifies damage, so I apply my own logic, and use the solution accordingly. ...Jon >> I'm sure more is more effective, but too much >> made the back of my skull feel like it was [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > signifies damage, so I apply my own logic, and use the solution > accordingly. ...Jon We don't know if a free radical created from h2o2 will cause cancer but if it does the sinuses won't be a good place for it. Would you rather have cancer on your finger or right next to your brain? Until this is studied I would strongly suggest that it is avoided. >We don't know if a free radical created from > h2o2 will cause cancer but if it does the > sinuses won't be a good place for it. Would > you rather have cancer on your finger or right > next to your brain? Until this is studied I would > strongly suggest that it is avoided. Ah... free radical. That's the word I was hunting for. ..You know, I think I might be a little more concerned if I was using the H2O2 full strength. ..But given the watered down solution, and the infrequency of use, I think we have a lot greater chance of contracting sinus cancer from breathing in radon, cig. smoke, automobile exhaust, chemicals from factories, or having cat scans, or dental x-rays. ...We have to remember the body manufactures its own hydrogen peroxide for certain functions, and this doesn't necessarily lead to cancerous cell formation. ...Jon >> We don't know if a free radical created from >> h2o2 will cause cancer but if it does the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > certain functions, and this doesn't necessarily lead to cancerous cell > formation. ...Jon H2O2 that cells use and regulate is much more different that dumping it into your sinus cavities. The issue here is free radical creation that happens when catalase breaks down the H2O2 into H2O and O. From what I understand... Once the O is created it will readily join with another O to form O2 assuming there is always another O on hand. To assume that this pairing happens all the time is probably unrealistic. Here is an interesting read... http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-05/uow-rem050405.php >H2O2 that cells use and regulate is much > more different that dumping it into your sinus > cavities. This is true, but you have to remember that the body most likely manufactures pure H2O2, whereas, the irrigation is a 3% solution that is further cut by a factor of 10 to 1. >The issue here is free radical creation that > happens when catalase breaks down the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > To assume that this pairing happens all the > time is probably unrealistic. I think I recall reading that the reaction occurs so fast that it is basically self-contained. ..Don't misunderstand me here. ..If you were to check back in this group, I questioned all of this at one time. ...However.. I look on it like the smoking/cancer thing. ...A person who has smoked 3 packs a day for 40 years, has probably a lot greater chance of developing cancer, as one who may have had a couple of cigarettes during the same time period. ..I'm willing to take a chance using the solution. ...It's not like I use it on a daily basis. ...Jon tyler.schacht@gmail.com (tyshock) wrote: >I tried about 1 tsp of H2O2 to 8oz saline about > a month ago. It stung pretty darn bad and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Can you be more specific as to your peroxide > to water ratio? My measurements are pretty wishy-washy at the best of times, even when it comes to irrigating with the salt mixture. (In this case I just adjust it according to comfort level) ...With the H2O2, I start by pouring a "glug" into the pik container. ...If there's no irritation, I pour more in as I'm irrigating. ...I also use very cold water, as this cuts down on the stinging. ...I believe you're probably wasting your time using the H2O2 at all, unless you can feel it, and see the bubbles in the liquid coming out. >Also, i find it interesting in your assessment > that the irritation might cause the sinuses to > purge themselves. I haven't considered that > possibility. I definitely know mine were > irritated. I do know that it causes a bit of blood to show up in the liquid coming out. I don't know if that's good or bad, but if it's coming from the infected area, I believe it would be good. ...Jon The time i tried it and felt the stinging, i did see the bubbles coming out. I can get over the pain of it, i'm just afraid that something irritating my mucus membranes that badly might be doing some permanent damage. Johnny, have you ever tried Betadine? Nobody has posted experiences with Betadine in awhile. I've wondered if it has fallen out of favor. A mix of Betadine and H202 could really put a blast on any bugs up in there. tyler.schacht@gmail.com (tyshock) wrote: >The time i tried it and felt the stinging, i did see > the bubbles coming out. I can get over the > pain of it, i'm just afraid that something > irritating my mucus membranes that badly > might be doing some permanent damage. Well I have to admit, I've felt almost as bad a pain when once I forgot to put the salt in the irrigator. ...I think we have to realize that the sinus area is a very sensitive location, and thus it doesn't take much to irritate the tissue there. Just my opinion here, but I would say, given the weak solution, and short duration of exposure, I really doubt any serious damage is done. >Johnny, have you ever tried Betadine? > Nobody has posted experiences with > Betadine in awhile. I've wondered if it has > fallen out of favor. A mix of Betadine and > H202 could really put a blast on any bugs up > in there. No, I've never heard of this regimen before. ...Sounds interesting. .Jon > tyler.schacht@gmail.com (tyshock) wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > out. I don't know if that's good or bad, but if it's coming from the > infected area, I believe it would be good. ...Jon My sinus problems go back 18 years and after years of antibiotics, Flonase, surgery, 3 ENT's and misery I have gone a full year without antibiotics and Flonase by irrigating with 2 tsp of canning salt, 1 tsp H2O2 in 20oz H2O twice a day, every day. More importantly my energy level has increased significantly and I now work out 45 minutes a day, 5/days a week on an eliptical machine. One downside of this regimen is I have poor sense of smell but considering how I had been feeling, sense of smell is not a concern for me. ...John >>> I tried about 1 tsp of H2O2 to 8oz saline about >>> a month ago. It stung pretty darn bad and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>In news:Y33Ef.17943$vP5.16235@fe71.usenetserver.com, >>jrandnr <jrobin@gmail.com> typed: >> My measurements are pretty wishy-washy at the best of times, even >> when it comes to irrigating with the salt mixture. (In this case I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >>> irritated. >>> snipped<<< What happened to our 'guru' of Hydrogen Peroxide treatment, "CanDo", that posted here? Did he OD on the H2O2? Surprised he's not posting to these replies anymore. ...Allen invalid@invalid.org (Allen L.) wrote: >What happened to our 'guru' of Hydrogen > Peroxide treatment, "CanDo", that posted > here? Did he OD on the H2O2? Surprised > he's not posting to these replies anymore. Actually, I'm kind of surprised CanDo's ideas seemed to fall, for the most part, on deaf ears. ...I know for a fact the H²O² helped me. ..I find John's recent report here quite interesting; however, I'm wondering whether the small amount of the H²O² that he uses, would really have that much of an effect. ....If anyone knows of any testing done in this area, please post the Urls. ...Jon >>What happened to our 'guru' of Hydrogen >>Peroxide treatment, "CanDo", that posted [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > really have that much of an effect. ....If anyone knows of any testing > done in this area, please post the Urls. ...Jon Jon All I can tell you is it's working for me. But don't get the wrong impression, I am not symptom free and there is still room for improvement. But like many here I have been through the wringer and worked up for everything from chronic fatigue, allergies, thyroid, immune disorders, fungus, etc, etc, etc. Sinus surgeries include FESS and several revisions with 3 different ENT's, last one performed by an excellent board certified Otolaryngologist at the Lahey Clinic in Burlington, MA. Following the last surgery I still had green/yellow drainage and misery. I wound up travelling weekly to the Lahey Clinic to have a mixture of peroxide, betadine and saline instilled into my left maxillary sinus, where all the crap was sitting or as my doctor described it "looks like a cesspool". That was 2 hours travel time each way and while it improved things it didn't go away. Thus I experimented on my own and found the twice daily irrigations with saline and H2O2 is what works for me right now. ...John >I wound up travelling weekly to the Lahey > Clinic to have a mixture of peroxide, betadine > and saline instilled into my left maxillary > sinus, where all the crap was sitting or as my > doctor described it "looks like a cesspool". Well that's interesting. I wasn't aware that the medical community used the H²O² internally. >Thus I experimented on my own and found the > twice daily irrigations with saline and H2O2 is > what works for me right now. Are you sure the H²O² is doing anything, or could it just be you're benefiting from the saline irrigation? ...As with any substance, you can only water them down so much, before their benefits become non-existent. ...Jon >>Thus I experimented on my own and found the >>twice daily irrigations with saline and H2O2 is >>what works for me right now. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > can only water them down so much, before their benefits become > non-existent. ...Jon Jon I've been irrigating with just saline for almost 15 years, only this past year have I gone without antibiotics and been able to work out on a regular basis. >I've been irrigating with just saline for almost > 15 years, only this past year have I gone > without antibiotics and been able to work out > on a regular basis. I'm not doubting what you say. ..It's like in my case: I irrigated for years, but it wasn't until I poured a good shot of H²O² in my container that I saw noticeable improvement. ...All I'm saying is that if you water anything down too much, it's effects become negligable. ..I'm just questioning if perhaps you didn't give your sinuses a good shot initially with the peroxide, and that did the trick. ...Or perhaps this small addition you add to your irrigation fluid, is just enough to create an irritation in your sinuses that keeps the bacteria from gettng a foot-hold. ...Jon Jrobin, What peroxide-to-water ratio do you use? Do you follow any additional steps other than 'normal' irrigation (different head position, etc.....)? Thanks! > Jrobin, > > What peroxide-to-water ratio do you use? Do you follow any additional > steps other than 'normal' irrigation (different head position, > etc.....)? Thanks! tyshock I use 1 tsp of H2O2 in 20oz of H2O and 2 tsp of canning salt. I use a 3oz ear syringe from my local walgreens to irrigate with. Otherwise nothing special. Interesting about the peroxide/betadine combination. I've always thought this combo would be great at killing any bad guys. When I asked my ENT, he just stated he hasn't seen any data to encourage either ones use. I got the feeling that his real thoughts on the matter were "well, that could work, but without any studies to back me up, i'm not gonna recommend that to you". He than stated that the only additives he can recommend are the antibiotics, ie, bactroban. My fears on these additions is that you may be doing the mucus membrane just as much damage as any virii/bacteria. I know Johnny also presented an opinion that the H202 may just induce enough irritation to cause your sinuses to systematically purge themselves. I think that is also an interesting possibility. >> What happened to our 'guru' of Hydrogen >> Peroxide treatment, "CanDo", that posted [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > really have that much of an effect. ....If anyone knows of any testing > done in this area, please post the Urls. ...Jon Let's not get confused. It's not really CanDo's idea. He was just pushing it. >Let's not get confused. It's not really CanDo's > idea. He was just pushing it. Yes, that's correct. ...I'm just thinking in terms of this group. ..Jon >>What happened to our 'guru' of Hydrogen >>Peroxide treatment, "CanDo", that posted [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Actually, I'm kind of surprised CanDo's ideas seemed to fall, for the > most part, on deaf ears. I was interested. But I was also concerned about the long-term effects of putting hydrogen peroxide in the nasal passages and sinus membranes. It's irritating and I was always concerned that long-term use could cause chronic inflammation.  SignatureSteven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net (Steven L.) wrote: >I was interested. But I was also concerned > about the long-term effects of putting [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that long-term use could cause chronic > inflammation. Well I think what discourages some people is that the after effects are guaranteed to make one feel worse than simply having the infection. ..I felt a flare-up coming on 3 weeks ago. I took a large shot of H²O², and for 4 or 5 days after, my nose felt like I had a permanent hot poker shoved up it. ...I kept up with a 5 per day saline irrigation, and then a few days later I flushed out masses of yellow mucus. ...Now my sinuses feel 100%. ...I definitely wouldn't recommend it be used on an ongoing basis, but if one can put up with approx. 3 days of misery (and if one overlooks the potentially carcinogenic radical aspect), then, in my opinion, I think it does help. ..Further... I've used the regimen about 4 times, and I haven't noticed any changes which could indicate any permanent damage has been done. ...I will say one thing: from the time I first tried using it, I haven't had to use antibiotics since. (...And It's been 2 years now) .Jon |
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