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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / December 2005irrigation making me feel like I have a bad cold
I am fairly certain I do NOT have a cold but rather "feels like I have a cold" is the best way I can describe what I'm feeling from irrigation. I have irrigated in the past with the same problem, both doing isotonic and hypertonic. I decided to give it a go again, this time with Breathe Ease XL where before I was just using plain salt and baking soda. I am using a Hydropulse twice per day, hypertonic. Within 24 hours I felt like I had a nasty cold, and it's been that way for days now. Susan in another threat suggested it may be due to using non-sterile water so I bought some distilled water and have irrigated with that twice so far. Today I feel about as bad as I have since I started. Last time I irrigated, when I stopped, this went away. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm wondering if I stick with it long enough, this will go away? > Susan in another threat suggested it may be due to using non-sterile > water so I bought some distilled water and have irrigated with that > twice so far. Today I feel about as bad as I have since I started. > Last time I irrigated, when I stopped, this went away. Has anyone else > experienced this? I'm wondering if I stick with it long enough, this > will go away? I have another question or two. What temperature is the water, what is your technique; pressure, head/body position? How often do you clean out your irrigator with peroxide? Do you let the first solution to come out run into the sink before inserting the tip so you don't irrigate with water that's been sitting inside the tubing? Susan Is your nasal passage way blocked? It is not advisable to irrigate if your nasal passageway is blocked. This will make you feel worse. Also, personally for me- using a hypertonic solution usually dries me out too much and causes a rebound effect. > Is your nasal passage way blocked? It is not advisable to irrigate if > your nasal passageway is blocked. This will make you feel worse. Not nearly blocked enough so that I shouldn't irrigate, but certainly blocked enough that I can't breathe through my nose nearly as well as I should be able to. > I have another question or two. What temperature is the water, what is > your technique; pressure, head/body position? How often do you clean [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Susan I am using warm water. Now that I have some distilled water I am taking filtered water, microwaving it to a boil, mixing in the Breathe Ease and then adding room temperature distilled to make for a basin of warm water. Pressure on the Hydropulse is set to medium, I believe the directions are for it to come out 1" straight up? I always run a bit of water out to ensure the water is coming out 1" straight up so it's not old water going into my sinuses. As for peroxide, once per week? I've only been doing it for a few days so far this time and hence only cleaned it out once. If I recall from the manual it needs to be cleaned with a mild bleach solution periodically as well. Doug > I am using warm water. Now that I have some distilled water I am > taking filtered water, microwaving it to a boil, mixing in the Breathe [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Pressure on the Hydropulse is set to medium, I believe the directions > are for it to come out 1" straight up? Yeah, but I set mine to high, works better for me, as long as I don't have a cold. Not sure if that would be better for you, though. > I always run a bit of water out to ensure the water is coming out 1" > straight up so it's not old water going into my sinuses. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the manual it needs to be cleaned with a mild bleach solution > periodically as well. What's your body and head position while you irrigate? Are you congested when you begin, have you blown your nose first, frex? Susan > What's your body and head position while you irrigate? Are you congested > when you begin, have you blown your nose first, frex? > > Susan I always bend over, with my face over the sink. I am never congested when I begin. I don't seem to produce a much mucus; in my case swelling and inflammation are likely the problem rather than mucus. > I always bend over, with my face over the sink. I am never congested > when I begin. I don't seem to produce a much mucus; in my case > swelling and inflammation are likely the problem rather than mucus. In that case, I wonder if chilled water might be more helpful, if you can tolerate it? I use it as warm as I can tolerate because it seems to assist more with stimulating drainage, etc. But heat ratchets up inflammation, and maybe in your case, cool water might be more helpful. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Susan Actually Susan, I may have found the solution. Having become so fed up with not being able to breathe through my nose that I've been trying various pharmaceutical spray combinations to no avail and knowing that I've tried everything I can think of and combinations of everything I can think of to no avail in the past, I decided to do the one thing I have had in the back of my mind but had been saving as an "all else fails" type of "trial" on myself. I have some Cephalexin in my medicine cabinet which I never needed to use. But I saved it to try in the irrigator. This is not the ideal systemic antibiotic for treating sinusitis I know from reading, but it is sometimes used. I emptied one capsule in with my Breathe Ease powder, filled up the basin, shook it up and irrigated with it. That was 3 hours ago. My nose right now is more clear than it has ever been, even more clear than when I tried Afrin + Claritin + Singulair. I hope that this simply means I've been walking around my whole life with chronic sinusitis. But if that is the case why on EARTH would my ENT not have seen it on the CT scan or when he did my turbinectomy / septoplasty? Or the various allergists who have looked up my nose? Of course if it is not bacteria then there is the huge question of why does it appear that Cephalexin has cleared my sinuses after only 3 hours? I'm going to run this twice a day until the Cephalexin is gone unless there is some really HUGE risk I may have missed somewhere. > Actually Susan, I may have found the solution. Having become so fed up > with not being able to breathe through my nose that I've been trying [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I'm going to run this twice a day until the Cephalexin is gone unless > there is some really HUGE risk I may have missed somewhere. First of all, congrats! :-) My chronic ethmoid sinusitis hasn't shown up on an X ray or CT scan ever. I've read that as many as 25% of ethmoid sinusitis isn't detected by these images. I'm waging a losing battle right now with an intransigent infection, and waiting for my mail order rx for Bactroban ointment to arrive so I can irrigate with it. Keep us up to date on your progress with the cephalexin irrigation? Susan On 12/6/05 3:24 PM, in article 3vmkt0F170kaaU2@individual.net, "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: > I'm waging a losing battle right now with an intransigent infection, and > waiting for my mail order rx for Bactroban ointment to arrive so I can > irrigate with it. I am not convinced that irrigating with Bactroban is as beneficial as simply inserting it directly into the nose. Stays there longer, more contact with bacteria, usually spreads about. > On 12/6/05 3:24 PM, in article 3vmkt0F170kaaU2@individual.net, "Susan" > <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > inserting it directly into the nose. Stays there longer, more contact with > bacteria, usually spreads about. Well, screw it, I can do both if irrigation alone doesn't work! :-) Susan > First of all, congrats! :-) Thank you, but although I'm hopeful I'm not holding my breath. If I go 3 days with better airflow then I will celebrate. :) > My chronic ethmoid sinusitis hasn't shown up on an X ray or CT scan > ever. I've read that as many as 25% of ethmoid sinusitis isn't detected > by these images. That's good to know. I wish my ENT had told me that 3 years ago. :( > I'm waging a losing battle right now with an intransigent infection, and > waiting for my mail order rx for Bactroban ointment to arrive so I can > irrigate with it. > > Keep us up to date on your progress with the cephalexin irrigation? I will certainly post updates but cephalexin isn't anywhere near the best choice; I am only using cephalexin because it's what I have on hand. (It is used to treat acute sinusitis sometimes, but is WAY down the list.) Cleveland Clinic website states that "The antibiotic of choice in acute sinusitis must cover S pneumoniae, H influenzae, and M catarrhalis." For chronic sinusitis they go on to say that the antibiotic must also be able to knock out Staphylococcus species and anaerobes. Cephalexin doesn't even come close to making the overall cut. Cleveland Clinic lists those antibiotics as amoxicillin-clavulanate, cefpodoxime proxetil, cefuroxime, gatifloxacin, moxifloxacin, and levofloxacin. http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com/diseasemanagement/allergy/sinusitis/sinusitis.htm I'll post updates on this and if this doesn't do the job, I will try to get one of the antibiotics indicated for chronic sinusitis and try irrigating with that. Obviously they are talking about taking them orally but I would rather not take antibiotics systemically unless absolutely necessary. Doug > I will certainly post updates but cephalexin isn't anywhere near the > best choice; I am only using cephalexin because it's what I have on [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > amoxicillin-clavulanate, cefpodoxime proxetil, cefuroxime, > gatifloxacin, moxifloxacin, and levofloxacin. You may have gotten lucky and not had anything the drug won't cover. > http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com/diseasemanagement/allergy/sinusitis/sinusitis.htm > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Doug I agree. I've found that it takes 10 days for oral meds to make much diff, and even if I take Augmentin XR for 30 days, the day I discontinue it, the heavy drainage and infection sx return. Susan > I agree. I've found that it takes 10 days for oral meds to make much > diff, and even if I take Augmentin XR for 30 days, the day I discontinue > it, the heavy drainage and infection sx return. So then what do you do?!! I'm getting very frustrated because of a recurring infection causing severe sore throat symptoms, along with the drainage, etc. I'm currently starting on the Augmentin for 10 days and was hoping this would kick it out... :( > So then what do you do?!! I'm getting very frustrated because of a > recurring infection causing severe sore throat symptoms, along with the > drainage, etc. I'm currently starting on the Augmentin for 10 days and was > hoping this would kick it out... :( 10 days?!? All that could do is piss off the germs! Mayo clinic recommends a minimum of 4 weeks, and up to 12 weeks of antibiotics. I've concluded that it doesn't matter how many weeks I take, the infection will recur, so I've been settling for managing, but not curing my infection for now, with irrigation, nasal sprays, decongestants, drinking water, antihistamines, allergy shots... I think the best thing to do is irrigate with the drugs rather than take them orally; so little actually makes it to the sinuses with their meager blood flow. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > not curing my infection for now, with irrigation, nasal sprays, > decongestants, drinking water, antihistamines, allergy shots... Do you have a link or something that points to the Mayo clinic recommendations? I don't guess my doctor is familiar with that... Thanks! > Do you have a link or something that points to the Mayo clinic > recommendations? I don't guess my doctor is familiar with that... > > Thanks! I didn't have it, but I googled it up. You've heard of google? ;-) http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/chronic-sinusitis/DS00232/DSECTION=6& Susan > I didn't have it, but I googled it up. You've heard of google? ;-) > > http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/chronic-sinusitis/DS00232/DSECTION=6& Thanks, Susan - I appreciate it! Yep, I know about google(!) - just thought you might have had the info handy since you referred to it! :) - Jacki > x-no-archive: yes > > I think the best thing to do is irrigate with the drugs rather than take > them orally; so little actually makes it to the sinuses with their > meager blood flow. Susan, since your infection comes back immediatly upon cessation of antibiotics, I wonder if you could irrigate with them daily with no ill effect? I have no idea how much of the antibiotic makes it's way into the bloodstream by irrigating vs. taking a capsule, but it's little to none it would seem a logical thing to try in your case. > Susan, since your infection comes back immediatly upon cessation of > antibiotics, I wonder if you could irrigate with them daily with no ill > effect? I plan to do so with Bactroban once I receive the drug in the mail. Not indefinitely, though. > I have no idea how much of the antibiotic makes it's way into > the bloodstream by irrigating vs. taking a capsule, but it's little to > none it would seem a logical thing to try in your case. OTOH, mucosal tissue very efficiently moves drugs into the bloodstream, OTOH, most of the irrigation solution runs into the sink, so I don't think much of dose goes into the bloodstream. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > OTOH, most of the irrigation solution runs into the sink, so I don't > think much of dose goes into the bloodstream. The Cleveland Clinic used to prescribe gentamicin irrigation for some of their sinus patients. But recently they've abandoned it after some of their patients developed definite systemic side effects. Gentamicin can have dangerous neurological side effects. Apparently enough gentamicin solution was being absorbed thru the nose, or was being swallowed as post nasal drip after irrigation.  SignatureSteven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. > The Cleveland Clinic used to prescribe gentamicin irrigation for some of > their sinus patients. But recently they've abandoned it after some of > their patients developed definite systemic side effects. Gentamicin can > have dangerous neurological side effects. Apparently enough gentamicin > solution was being absorbed thru the nose, or was being swallowed as > post nasal drip after irrigation. Or gentamicin is toxic even in minute amounts? My niece is an M.D. and was worried about nephrotoxicity when rx'ed vancomycin eye drops years ago, too. Mucosal administration is a highway straight into the bloodstream, bypass the liver first time around, so a tiny amount has more effect. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Or gentamicin is toxic even in minute amounts? The problem with gentamicin is that its neurotoxicity is irreversible when it occurs. So even though only a few, highly sensitive patients reacted to it while most didn't, that was enough for the Cleveland Clinic to ban its use. They still don't know why a few patients are so much more sensitive to it than others. But then, we don't really know why some patients develop allergic reactions to medications while others don't either. SignatureSteven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. > The problem with gentamicin is that its neurotoxicity is irreversible > when it occurs. So even though only a few, highly sensitive patients > reacted to it while most didn't, that was enough for the Cleveland > Clinic to ban its use. I can see why. I already have chronic neuro problems, and I'm not about to risk more, so I'll try Bactroban, other oral abx dissolved in saline, but not the oto and/or neurotoxic drugs. Susan On 12/10/05 4:29 PM, in article 1134260966.016802.146410@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com, >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the bloodstream by irrigating vs. taking a capsule, but it's little to > none it would seem a logical thing to try in your case. Susan's situatiom may be different, but what we see is He took the antibiotic as prescribed and felt better. The antibiotic did kill the bad bacteria. But his cilia failed to return to normal function. With the cilia not moving the mucus out of the nose and sinus, a new infection now developed and he became ill again. We used to say the infection returned because he didn't take the antibiotic long enough, but now we pay attention to the cilia function. Remember, hot tea, chicken soup and pulsatile irrigation . > Susan's situatiom may be different, but what we see is > He took the antibiotic as prescribed and felt better. The antibiotic did [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > long enough, but now we pay attention to the cilia function. Remember, hot > tea, chicken soup and pulsatile irrigation . My situation is different, in that I also irrigate, drink lots of fluids, irrigate some more, take decongestants, use Rhinocort, take bi-weekly allergy shots, etc... Maybe my cilia are lazy, maybe my right ethmoid is blocked, maybe infection is in the bone, I dunno... Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Maybe my cilia are lazy, maybe my right ethmoid is blocked, maybe > infection is in the bone, I dunno... Twice now, I have had pockets of infection that didn't show up on the CT scans and required surgeries to correct each time. Each time I had to find an ENT who would be willing to operate on me based on my symptoms and history only, even though the CT scan was negative. We really need something better than today's CT scans; maybe a CT scan with vastly improved resolution. Today's CT scans just don't have the resolution to detect small pockets of infection that are nevertheless sufficient to make us sick. And they aren't good at detecting pockets of infection in the bone. Does anyone know if a bone scan would work? SignatureSteven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. On 12/6/05 12:31 PM, in article 1133901075.692459.223350@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, >> I have another question or two. What temperature is the water, what is >> your technique; pressure, head/body position? How often do you clean [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Doug With the hydro pulse the stream coming out should be almost one inch high. You can use either 200 cc of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide or bleach, but peroxide seems easier to use and rinse out. Leave the peroxide in fo r3-4 hours, run the nasal tip into the solution and recycle it for a minute. Doc if the irrigation stream doesn't make it up into the sinuses, then how can you clear out mucous in your maxillarys and ethmoids? On 12/12/05 9:41 PM, in article 1134452471.336891.300780@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Lateralus" <mwgoldie67@cox.net> wrote: > Doc if the irrigation stream doesn't make it up into the sinuses, then > how can you clear out mucous in your maxillarys and ethmoids? The stream does enter the sinuses, but it is not as a hose stuck in the sinus cavity. It is called Bernoulli principle and with the Hydro Pulse you have the addition of the pumping action. > I am fairly certain I do NOT have a cold but rather "feels like I have > a cold" is the best way I can describe what I'm feeling from [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Hydropulse twice per day, hypertonic. Within 24 hours I felt like I > had a nasty cold, and it's been that way for days now. What exactly do you mean by "felt like I had a nasty cold"? What are the symptoms you are experiencing? SignatureSteven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. > What exactly do you mean by "felt like I had a nasty cold"? What are > the symptoms you are experiencing? In actuality it had nothing to do with irrigation. I actually did get sick and it had nothing to do with irrigation. Just a coincidence. If you felt good before the irrigation, and the irrigation made you feel worse, why irrigate? As they say, "if it ain't broke, don't ..... I understand what you're saying though. After irrigating, having loosened up the phlegm and expanded it with liquid, you can feel more congested than before irrigating. I find it necessary to shake my head in all different directions (over the bathtub, which I clean afterwards) after irrigating. It doesn't only get out extra fluid, but a lot of phlegm as well. Also, I often have to cough up a lot of phlegm after irrigating, as it drips into the throat. > I am fairly certain I do NOT have a cold but rather "feels like I have > a cold" is the best way I can describe what I'm feeling from [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > experienced this? I'm wondering if I stick with it long enough, this > will go away? |
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