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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / August 2005

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Karl Carpenter - 14 Aug 2005 13:40 GMT
I am a 35 year old male. About 15 years ago I broke my nose playing sport
and now have a noticeable lump on the right side of my nose roughly between
my eyes.

Soon after breaking my nose, I developed what I thought was a cold. I can't
be sure that the two events are linked but anyway the 'cold' is still with
me today. My nose is almost always at least partially blocked, the amount of
blockage varies from slight to complete but the blockage is always above the
nasal bone, not in the soft part of my nostril. The left nostril is
generally more blocked than the right, but not always. I also constantly
swallow a thick whitish mucous (post nasal drip?), literally every 30-60
seconds, 24 hours a day (I assume it continues while I sleep). As you may
imagine, swallowing this much thick mucous means that I rarely feel hungry.
On a number of occasions I have woken up in the morning with my esophagus
blocked with mucous. I can clear it with a glass of water but it is quite
painful to do so.

I have one other trick; the ability to lodge food in the back of my nose. A
GP (MD) and my ENT have both told me this is impossible but I can do it on
demand. If I talk and eat at the same time the food goes straight back there
and generally gets stuck for days. This causes a sore throat and even more
swallowing. One time I even managed to bring a piece of week-old pizza back
into my mouth! Yum! It feels as if the mucous that I continuously swallow
comes from the same area as where the food sticks. A CT scan of the area has
shown that I have a deviated septum but my ENT does not believe the
deviation is enough to be causing the above symptoms. Mind you, the ENT
seems to think that I am imagining all of the above.

Could pulsatile nasal irrigation help me?

My ENT has advised that I have surgery to 'shave' my turbinates but I am
hesitant to do so as he seems unsure about the outcome.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Murray Grossan - 14 Aug 2005 18:00 GMT
On 8/14/05 5:40 AM, in article 6ZGLe.797$yt1.21622@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au,

> I am a 35 year old male. About 15 years ago I broke my nose playing sport
> and now have a noticeable lump on the right side of my nose roughly between
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Could pulsatile nasal irrigation help me?

No pulsatile irrigation  would not help you. Yours is an anatomical problem
that needs to be corrected. By keeping pus in your system as you are doing
will probably lead to serious physical complications.
Karl Carpenter - 15 Aug 2005 00:42 GMT
> On 8/14/05 5:40 AM, in article 6ZGLe.797$yt1.21622@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au,
>
>> I am a 35 year old male. About 15 years ago I broke my nose playing sport
<snip>

> Could pulsatile nasal irrigation help me?
>>
> No pulsatile irrigation  would not help you. Yours is an anatomical
> problem
> that needs to be corrected. By keeping pus in your system as you are doing
> will probably lead to serious physical complications.

Out of interest and with respect, how do you detirmine that it is pus that I
am swallowing and not mucous? I have never managed to cough up anything that
resembles 'pus'

Thanks again.
Murray Grossan - 16 Aug 2005 01:47 GMT
On 8/14/05 4:42 PM, in article OFQLe.8$sy4.618@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au, "Karl
Carpenter" <kk-nospam-@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

>> On 8/14/05 5:40 AM, in article 6ZGLe.797$yt1.21622@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Thanks again.

I don't understand your question. You describe an anatomic problem that
could be injurious to your health.
Don Brady - 16 Aug 2005 02:06 GMT
> how do you detirmine that it is pus that I
> am swallowing and not mucous? I have never managed to cough up anything that
> resembles 'pus'

Just two terms for the same thing.....
Karl Carpenter - 18 Aug 2005 02:03 GMT
>> how do you detirmine that it is pus that I
>> am swallowing and not mucous? I have never managed to cough up anything
>> that
>> resembles 'pus'
>
> Just two terms for the same thing.....

I didn't realise that. I have always been led to believe that mucous is
phlegm or snot and pus is basically dead white blood cells
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 18 Aug 2005 03:07 GMT
It can also be from inflammation without infection, I think.
Don Brady - 14 Aug 2005 19:15 GMT
>My ENT has advised that I have surgery to 'shave' my turbinates but I am
>hesitant to do so as he seems unsure about the outcome.

I would get second opinions until you find one who is a lot more sure about the
outcome.   Try a sinus specialist at a major university teaching hospital.
KarlC - 14 Aug 2005 20:39 GMT
>>My ENT has advised that I have surgery to 'shave' my turbinates but I am
>>hesitant to do so as he seems unsure about the outcome.
>
> I would get second opinions until you find one who is a lot more sure
> about the
> outcome.   Try a sinus specialist at a major university teaching hospital.

Thank you both for your honest and direct replies. I should have posted here
long ago
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 15 Aug 2005 02:27 GMT
I've had the same kind of whitish to clear jelly-like postnasal drip
that is so bad that it drains into my chest and I about suffocate on
it.  My CT scans were relatively clear, but I had some unusual "bugs"
cultured from my sinuses both of which have required aggressive
treatment; so white mucus doesn't always mean there isn't infection.
Have you had a sinus culture done?  I would have never known what was
in there if an ENT hadn't been willing to do a culture.  Do you feel
bad with this?  Do you get pain when it doesn't drain? Have you had
allergy testing or testing for immune deficeincy?  There are so many
things that can cause this.  I think you need a through workup.   I
agree that you need another opinion.  You may ultimately need surgery,
but I would request a culture and some other testing first.  

kathyw
Lateralus - 17 Aug 2005 04:52 GMT
> I've had the same kind of whitish to clear jelly-like postnasal drip
> that is so bad that it drains into my chest and I about suffocate on
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> kathyw

Kathy what type of bugs have been cultured oyt of your nose????
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 18 Aug 2005 03:06 GMT
Blastomyces, Serratia marcescens, Stenotrophomonas, Penicillium, and
coagulase negative staph
Lateralus - 23 Aug 2005 02:31 GMT
coagulase negative staph is common in alot of peoples noses according
to my ENT.
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 23 Aug 2005 04:19 GMT
Yes, that is true.  So is Staph aureus, but it's not supposed to be in
the sinuses.  While most ENTs do not think coag. neg. staph is a
problem in sinusitis, there are some studies that suggest that it may
be.  I think the sinuses are supposed to be sterile, so if it is
cultured directly from them, then it could be a problem.
Susan - 23 Aug 2005 14:19 GMT
> Yes, that is true.  So is Staph aureus, but it's not supposed to be in
> the sinuses.  While most ENTs do not think coag. neg. staph is a
> problem in sinusitis, there are some studies that suggest that it may
> be.  I think the sinuses are supposed to be sterile, so if it is
> cultured directly from them, then it could be a problem.

This puzzles me; I'm wondering how an open cavity is expected to be
sterile.  Is this true, anyone got a reference?

Susan
Steven L. - 23 Aug 2005 16:38 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> This puzzles me; I'm wondering how an open cavity is expected to be
> sterile.  Is this true, anyone got a reference?

My ENT told me that the doctors used to believe that, but the latest
medical theory is that the sinuses get infected with whatever is
infecting the rest of the nasopharynx.  For example, when you get a
viral common cold, it is now known that you usually get a viral
sinusitis as an integral part of the cold.  So a common cold is now
actually now called "viral rhinosinusitis."

In fact, my ENT subscribes to what he called a "unified field theory of
sinusitis":  When you get an infection anywhere in your respiratory
tract, it can spread to any other part of your respiratory tract because
the tissue is pretty much the same.  So he doesn't bother drawing sharp
distinctions between "sinusitis," "infectious rhinitis," "laryngitis,"
"tracheitis," etc.  To him, it's pretty much all the same s**t.  :-)

A healthy sinus isn't 100% sterile.  It's just that bacteria that happen
to make their way in there get flushed out before they can multiply to
any great extent.  Instead of "sterile," it's "no bacterial overgrowth"

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net

Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Susan - 23 Aug 2005 16:48 GMT
> A healthy sinus isn't 100% sterile.  It's just that bacteria that happen
> to make their way in there get flushed out before they can multiply to
> any great extent.  Instead of "sterile," it's "no bacterial overgrowth"

This is what I understood to be true.  Not sterile, just not
infected/inflamed by pathogen overgrowth.

Susan
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 23 Aug 2005 19:43 GMT
You may be correct that the sinsues are not supposed to be sterile.  I
know I have read it somewhere during my endless research.   It seems
like I have also read somewhere that a few isolated is not significant,
but moderate to many is.  Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that
the coagulase negative staph may possibly act as a pathogen when it
overgrows.  That was the only thing I ever had isolated until recently.
I think I've read that some others here have also had that as the only
bacteria  isolated when they were having significant problems.  Here is
an abstract from medline concerning this:

Ear Nose Throat J. 2004 Dec;83(12):836-8. Related Articles, Links

Bacteriology in patients with chronic sinusitis who have been medically
and surgically treated.

Yildirim A, Oh C, Erdem H, Kunt T.

Cumhuriyet University, Medical Faculty, Otolaryngology Head and Neck
Department, TR-58140 Sivas, Turkey. altan11@hotmail.com

Chronic sinusitis is a disease that afflicts a significant percentage
of the population and causes considerable long-term morbidity. The
common use of multiple broad-spectrum oral antibiotics and endoscopic
sinus surgery to treat this condition may alter the pathogenes that
promote persistence of chronic sinusitis. Forty-eight culture-positive
patients with chronic sinusitis who had been medically treated for at
least 3 months and had undergone sinus surgery were bacteriologically
evaluated. Swab specimens of the middle meatus and sphenoethmoid recess
were aseptically obtained endoscopically and cultured for aerobes.
Coagulase-negative staphylococci were the most common isolates (45.8%),
followed by Streptococcus pneumoniae (16.7%), Enterobacteriaceae
(16.7%), Staphylococcus aureus (10.4%), and Pseudomonas aeruginosa
(10.4%). Coagulase-negative staphylococci were the most frequently
isolated organisms in our study, as in many other studies. Despite the
significant predominance of these organisms, they have always been
assumed to be contaminants, and their presence in culture has been
discounted. Coagulase-negative S aureus may be a pathogen in the
chronic sinusitis process, and sensitivities of this isolate should be
obtained for evaluation and possible treatment of the disease.

Another one from Rochester:

The microbiology of chronic rhinosinusitis: results of a community
surveillance study.

Chan J, Hadley J.

Division of Otolaryngology, University of Rochester School of Medicine
and Dentistry, Rochester, N.Y., USA.

In view of the rapidly changing patterns of antibiotic resistance,
community surveillance studies are providing important information to
help guide practitioners in making their choice of antibiotics. For
this community surveillance study, we performed a retrospective chart
review of nasal and sinus culture data obtained from 83 patients with
typical symptoms of chronic rhinosinusitis who visited a community
otolaryngologist in Rochester, New York. Pathogens were isolated in 59
of these patients (71%). The most common were coagulase-negative
staphylococci (31% of isolates). Among the other isolated pathogens
were Hemophilus influenzae (25%), Streptococcus pneumoniae (12%),
Moraxella catarrhalis (10%), Pseudomonas aeruginosa (7%),
alpha-hemolytic streptococci (5%), and Staphylococcus aureus (3%).
Approximately 39% of the coagulase-negative staphylococci isolates were
resistant to penicillin. Some 20% of the H influenzae isolates were
beta-lactamase-positive, and 14% of all isolates were resistant to
multiple antibiotics. Approximately 12% of the 83 patients cultured
positive for multiple organisms. Our findings provide important
surveillance information about the resistance patterns of pathogens in
our area. Although the prevalence of beta-lactamase-positive H
influenzae that we observed was consistent with those of other reports,
we found a lower prevalence of polymicrobial flora. Our findings
suggest that culture- and sensitivity-directed therapy should be
effective in the treatment of chronic rhinosinusitis.
Susan - 23 Aug 2005 21:10 GMT
> You may be correct that the sinsues are not supposed to be sterile.  I
> know I have read it somewhere during my endless research.   It seems
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> bacteria  isolated when they were having significant problems.  Here is
> an abstract from medline concerning this:

I don't doubt that pathogen overgrowth causes infections, and I know
you've struggled with quite a few.

I just don't think an open cavity in a space where we inhale pathogens
all day is supposed to be sterile, unlike, say, spinal fluid.

Susan
Steven L. - 23 Aug 2005 22:58 GMT
> You may be correct that the sinsues are not supposed to be sterile.  I
> know I have read it somewhere during my endless research.  

I know you have.  It was the medical dogma up until about 6 years ago.
But that theory, according to my ENT, has been discredited very recently.

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net

Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Don Brady - 23 Aug 2005 23:26 GMT
>I know you have.  It was the medical dogma up until about 6 years ago.
>But that theory, according to my ENT, has been discredited very recently.

Most of the ENT's that I have seen (in fact all of them) have known that these
cultures were of limited use for a long time now.
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 24 Aug 2005 01:33 GMT
Are you talking about nasal cultures or direct sinus cultures?  The two
abstracts that I sited are both from 2004 and the last sentence in both
of them says to do cultures and sensitivities.  I'm not trying to be
argumentative;  I'm just like everybody else wanting to get better and
not trusting a lot of the ENTs that I've seen.  I've been told
something different by all of them from:  "there is nothing wrong with
your sinuses to the latest who says "your sinuses are condemned and you
have osteitis and there is no cure.  So how do we know who is right?
Susan - 24 Aug 2005 01:52 GMT
> Are you talking about nasal cultures or direct sinus cultures?  The two
> abstracts that I sited are both from 2004 and the last sentence in both
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> your sinuses to the latest who says "your sinuses are condemned and you
> have osteitis and there is no cure.  So how do we know who is right?

Kathy, you're in a really tough spot.  Fact is that there aren't
controversies about stuff like this when the truth of the matter has
been well established.  Sinusitis has lots of theorists and not much
proof, hence its chronicity and refractoriness.

Susan
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 24 Aug 2005 14:09 GMT
Susan, I don't understand your statements.  What are you saying isn't
controversial?  It seems like the sentences contradict themselves.  How
can there not be controversy if there is no proof of anything?
Susan - 24 Aug 2005 14:16 GMT
> Susan, I don't understand your statements.  What are you saying isn't
> controversial?  It seems like the sentences contradict themselves.  How
> can there not be controversy if there is no proof of anything?

Sorry for not being more clear.

What I am saying is that if sinusitis were well understood, there
wouldn't be so many differing opinions and theories.  Things would be
less confusing for you.

I said it *is* controversial.

Susan
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 24 Aug 2005 16:28 GMT
OK.  I agree with that.   I've read a very thorough article from the
Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology at:

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/ymai/article/PIIS009167490402
4844/fulltext


It is over 100 pages long.  It describes all of the possible causes of
rhinosinusitis including the biofilms, pathogens, inflamation, and even
osteitis.  I don't think the full text is going to be available for
long.  I copied it and pasted it in a word document.  It if well worth
reading.

kathyw
Susan - 24 Aug 2005 17:27 GMT
> OK.  I agree with that.   I've read a very thorough article from the
> Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology at:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> kathyw

Thanks for the reference!

Susan
Don Brady - 24 Aug 2005 18:47 GMT
>OK.  I agree with that.   I've read a very thorough article from the
>Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology at:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>long.  I copied it and pasted it in a word document.  It if well worth
>reading.

I got  it as a PDF, which preserves all formatting.    People who need it can
try clicking on the "Institutional" Link after signing up.

I notice that Kennedy and Lanza are among the authors (as usual).

I have yet to read it but I am sure t will be fascinating....
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 25 Aug 2005 01:55 GMT
Did you have to sign up to get the article?  If so, did it cost
anything?  I was able to pull it up this morning, but I tried again
later, and it asked for a user name and password.  I'm glad at least I
copied and saved most of it;  don't have all the formating though.
Don Brady - 25 Aug 2005 02:00 GMT
>Did you have to sign up to get the article?
Yes.
> If so, did it cost
>anything?
No.  But on the default path it asks for $30.

> I was able to pull it up this morning, but I tried again
>later, and it asked for a user name and password.  I'm glad at least I
>copied and saved most of it;  don't have all the formating though.
Don Brady - 25 Aug 2005 03:42 GMT
Kathy,

By the way your email address does not seem to work for me.    I realize that
many people do not post their actual address.   I do, by the way.....

Don
Don Brady - 25 Aug 2005 05:40 GMT
Kathy,

I got your email from your old address.  Please send me your current email
address.  Thanks.

Don
Don Brady - 24 Aug 2005 02:26 GMT
>Are you talking about nasal cultures or direct sinus cultures?  The two
>abstracts that I sited are both from 2004 and the last sentence in both
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>your sinuses to the latest who says "your sinuses are condemned and you
>have osteitis and there is no cure.  So how do we know who is right?

I would get more opinions from some well-known people.  One world superstar is
Dr. Frederick Kuhn in Savannah, GA, head of  The Georgia Nasal and Sinus
Institute.

Here are a couple of his papers on fungal sinusitis (though his expertise is
far wider than that and I am sure would extend to osteitis).

See http://www.respiratoryreviews.com/feb00/rr_feb00_fungalsinusitis.html 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
4515093&dopt=Abstract


Mayo would be a possibility too.  If you want surgery, personally I would go to
U. Penn.even if Dr. Kennedy won't see you.   There are other well-known people
there.   Or Dr. Brent Senior at UNC.

By the way, when you see a new doctor, I personally would not give them a lot
of background about earlier opinions and your own research,  tentative
conclusions etc.   I have found that they do not want that.  That information
is very valuable to you but often not to them.  It just limits the freshness of
their approach.    I would give them any CT scans or lab results or other
records but not dwell on them.
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 24 Aug 2005 04:07 GMT
Thanks for the information.  I will check these out.
 
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