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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / August 2005

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I'm scared to death of a relapse....any advice?

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tyler.schacht@gmail.com - 10 Aug 2005 19:32 GMT
Hi all,

Sorry for the long post/story......if you want a quick summary of this,
check below at the bottom for a quick summary list-------

This is my first post to this group, though I have been lurking here
for a few years during my battles with sinusitis.  These have recently
gone from a nuisence to a real problem.  I truly sympathize with those
in this group that have to live with this nightmare.

In march of this year, i developed what was interpreted by myself as a
common cold.  Before this cold subsided, it developed into sinusitis.
The big error on my part was waiting until april to go to a doc.  She
prescribed 10 days of ceftin.  That did absolutely nothing.  She then
had me come in for a steroid shot which was to act as an antihistimine.
This did nothing.  Then, i was on 2 weeks of avelox.  After the avelox
did nothing, i was sent for a CT scan and referred to my ENT.  The ENT
was worried because the scan showed that my sphenoids were a mess, and,
as the scan was about 7 days old at that point, he was concerned if
they were still in that bad state.  I got another scan which thankfully
showed the sphenoids were clear, but still showed my left frontal and
right maxillary were a mess.  I suspected this, as my left forehead
around the eyebrow region has had aches (especially aggravating in the
morning) for years.  Kind of a 'dull' headache i had always lived with.
 My right ear had been aching me and was clogged, and I have a
root-canaled upper right molar that was very sensitive at random times
throughout the day for the previous year.  Turns out, this molar is
thought to be getting referred pain from that bad right maxillary.  The
ENT put me on 2 weeks of leviquin, allegraD and rhinocort aqua.   He
also gave me a neilmed sinus rinse kit, that i used twice daily. I had
already been doing irrigation. Toward the end of my avelox cycle, i had
purchased a NETI pot and was using that.  Two weeks went by, and I
thought i was feeling a bit better over the last few days of that
cycle.  But, when the ENT heard I was still having symptoms, he ordered
another CT scan.  This scan showed that my sinuses were worse that day
than 2 weeks earlier!  What I still find odd is that during the
irrigations (and i was being aggressive), i only saw totally clear
discharge.  I guess my sinuses were literally closed off.  After a talk
with the doc, i scheduled FESS, which was done on 6/22.

After the FESS, i felt pretty darn good.  Yeah, I had the crusting and
the associated stuffiness, but it was bearable.  But, for the first
time i could recently remember, i wasn't waking up with the headaches
on my forehead.  Also, that darn tooth pain was gone!  On the 14th day
after my FESS, i was feeling great....the breating was open, and there
was no pain. However, that day while I was at work, I felt a dull
stabbing pain around my right ethmoid area.  This pain slowly began to
magnify, until my right frontal was in excruciating pain.  I hadn't had
a sinus headache that bad since i was a teen.  What is weird about this
is my left frontal had been the one operated on, and i hadn't felt any
pain in my right frontal like that in over 15 years.  I immediately
called my ENT and got an appointment that day. I went home and laid
down until the appointment. At one point,  i could literally feel and
hear the right frontal open up with an audible whistling type sound,
and the sharp pain immediately stopped.  The ENT viewed me thru a scope
and said the areas he worked on via FESS looked good.  He also went up
in there and sucked a good bit of goo out of the right frontal.  The
diagnosis was that the 2 weeks of levequin i took post op didn't kill
the infection, and it returned with a vengence. He put me on another
round of meds.  This time, it was a prednisone pack, another 2 weeks of
levequin, allegra, and irrigation 4 times daily with a bactroban/saline
mixture.  At the end of these 2 weeks, my sinuses felt 'beat up'.  I
had been irrigating so often and on so many meds, as well as still
recovering from the surgery.  It was difficult for me to gauge how i
was really doing due to all these external factors.  So, i told the ENT
i didn't feel 100% better and he ran another CT scan.  The CT scan
looked VERY clean.  My ENT always went over the scans with me on a
laptop, so I got to see with my own eyes how everything looked open.
The conclusion we came to was that the 4 irrigations daily of the
bactroban mixture were causing my sinuses some irritation, but other
than that there was no infection.  We chose to stop irrigations for a
period and see how I would do.  After a couple of days of no
irrigation, i felt pretty good.  My prescription for Allegra ran out,
and since my insurance was requiring a $40 copay for it anyways, i
decided to try claritin which was much cheapter OTC generic.  The next
2 weeks I was feeling nice.....until last friday.  We were on vacation
in florida and my wife looks over at me and says she felt like she was
getting sick.  Alarm bells immediately went off in my head, and I went
to Walgreens and got some irrigation packages.  Well, despite taking
all the realistic precautions I could, I sit here today with a sore
throat, a stuffy nose, and a fear of being back in the same boat i
started in.  I am irrgating once in the morning and once late evening.
So far, i have seen no real green stuff during irrigations, but I have
been coughing up blobs of green goo regularly.  I tend to think they
are coming from my lungs and are not postnasal drip, but I cannot be
totally sure. I guess i'm hoping this is centralized around my chest
and not my head.

Does anyone have any advice on how to handle this?  Any extra
steps/remedies/recommendations on how to avoid this turning into
another sinus nightmare?  I dread the thought of seemingly beating my 5
month nightmare only to see it come back two weeks later.  I have an
appointment today with my family doc and I think i may request a
zithromax pack (maybe more out of desperation to try something
different than anything else).  I have had decent results in the past
with zithromax and sinus congestion, but for whatever reason, my doc
decided to start me out on ceftin way back in april.  My wife's
symptoms are more chest related, and as I said, i am seemingly coughing
up blobs of goo from my chest.  If this were only myself feeling sick
OR it was more obviously centralized in my sinuses, i would see my ENT
regarding it.  Nonetheless, if my symptoms don't improve soon, i plan
to see the ENT again.

Here is a quick recap of what's going on (dates are approximate) --

3/1/05   Got a common cold that develops into
sinusitus......mistakingly try to beat it on my own
4/2/05   See doctor and get 2 weeks of ceftin along with a guaf pill
4/16/05  No improvement with ceftin....doc orders steroid shot to
reduce possible inflammation
4/30/05  No relief with steroid shot.  Doc prescribes Avalox for 2
weeks.
5/14/05  No relief.  Scheduled a CT Scan.
5/21/05  Got CT Scan results and an ENT referral
5/28/05  ENT does another scan that indicates bad left frontal and
right maxillary sinusitis.  He puts me on levequin, rhinocort aqua, and
allegra for 2 weeks.
6/11/05  ENT does another scan that shows sinusitis actually got worse.
Schedule FESS
6/22/05  Have FESS and 2 weeks post levequin
6/23/05 - 7/6/05  Feel great!
7/7/05   Have a setback as right frontal swells shut (FESS was only in
left frontal area).  Have colored discharge thru both sinusus.  ENT
prescribes 2 weeks levequin, allegra, prednisone pack, and
saline/bactroban irrigation 4x daily
7/21/05  See ent.  Nose feels irritated but otherwise clear.  CT Scan
looks great.  Ordered to reduce/stop irrigations to test if that led to
irritation.
7/22/05 - 8/4/05  Feel a great deal better.  Nose sometimes feels
stuffy, and use claritin on that which works well
8/5/05   Wife informs me she is getting sick.  Begin irrigations and
take precautions as necessary.
8/10/05  End up getting sick.  Feel awful.  Irrigation discharge from
nose clear, however, coughing up green phlegm.  Worried sinuses may be
blocked and that is only reason discharge is clear.

I am desperate for anything that could help.  This sinusitus has ruined
my summer with my family, and i can't fathom it coming back again and
ruining the entire year!

Thanks in advance for any responses,

Tyler
Don Brady - 10 Aug 2005 23:37 GMT
>Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 134 lines]
>my summer with my family, and i can't fathom it coming back again and
>ruining the entire year!

I will mostly leave it to others to comment  but it seems to me that you are
getting too many CT scans.    Once every year or two is the most that would
normally be taken.  They should only be used to look at long-terms trends, not
acute situations.repeatedly.  The radiation exposure is cumulative and while I
would not worry about the number you have had so far, you need to keep a margin
for the decades to come.

As to your present situation, I do not know much about that kind of repeated
acute infection so I will leave that to others.

Are you getting enough rest?  Could there be another underlying consition such
as anemia or low thyroid or poor diet that is affecting your health generally?
Try to improve your general level of health and fitness to help you fight off
the infections.    Avoid allergens such as  dust and mold.  

Normally you should be able to recover fine from where you are....
Steven L. - 11 Aug 2005 03:44 GMT
> Does anyone have any advice on how to handle this?  Any extra
> steps/remedies/recommendations on how to avoid this turning into
> another sinus nightmare?  

First of all, the point of the surgery was to improve sinus drainage so
that every time you catch a cold it doesn't turn into a long-lasting
sinus infection.  But it can take up to a whole YEAR to get the full
improvement from your surgery.  So you have to be real patient.

One of my cardinal rules about treating sinusitis is:  NEVER fly with a
severe sinus infection.  If you got sick in Florida and then flew back
home, the change in air pressure and the poor air quality could drive
the infection deeper.  A friend of mine made the mistake of flying with
an severe acute sinus infection, and that's how she got permanent
chronic sinusitis.

As far as your coughing up green phlegm:  You probably feel a congested
spot or "tickle" that is making you cough.  Does the "tickle" feel like
it's down deep in your chest, or up higher like just below your larynx?
 The former is more suggetive of bronchitis, but the latter is more
suggestive of post nasal drip from sinusitis.

If possible, I would suggest inhaling warm steam thru your mouth, from a
pot of water that you heated to boiling.  Or from a long hot shower.
The steam entering your lungs will liquefy that phlegm and make it
easier to cough up.  I also find Mucinex helps.

For a romantic interlude, you and your wife can take a hot steamy shower
together and cough up phlegm together.  :-)

> My wife's
> symptoms are more chest related, and as I said, i am seemingly coughing
> up blobs of goo from my chest.  

How is the doctor treating your wife?  We sure don't want her to end up
needing sinus surgery like you did!

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net

Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

sedum41 - 11 Aug 2005 15:52 GMT
You don't say anything about allergy testing. Since many sinus problems are
due to allergies you should be skin tested for them. Mold is high right now
just about everywhere due to the summer heat and humidity and I think
Florida would have pretty high levels of mold. By mold I am talking about
outside airborne mold. I would make an appointment with an allergist and
get skin tested. I had many years free from sinus problems and was
sucessfully treated with 8 years of allergy shots. Only recently I started
to have problems and was retested for allergies and now everything I had
shots for showed up clear. However now I have tested positive for mold
allergies. Note that although you can do things to prevent mold in your
house it is out in outside air which is hard to avoid.
tyler.schacht@gmail.com - 11 Aug 2005 17:48 GMT
Thanks for the reply/info.

My doc determined it is a majority of nasal phlegm going down my
throat.  From your description of deep in chest versus larnyx, i agree
with that assessment.

The phlegm seemed to reach it's peak this morning.  Upon waking and
after irrigating, i was able to cough up and 'snort down' a great deal
of nasty phlegm.  I guess what baffles me is how i get clear drainage
out my nose, yet tons of yucky stuff post-nasally?  Does this indicate
more mucus in any particular sinus?  I imagine the good part is that it
IS draining instead of staying blocked/trapped.

I actually feel a bit better today than i did yesterday.  From a
headache standpoint, i am in much better shape than yesterday.  I am
hoping that this means i have crossed the threshold of just a cold and
will get better.

I will agree about flying.  We drove to florida on this last vacation.
However, on 4/20 of this year i flew cross-country to portland oregon,
and I had some awful ear and sinus issues while descending.  If i ever
fly in the future, my ENT said i should use some afrin to combat
blockage.
Steven L. - 11 Aug 2005 19:07 GMT
> Thanks for the reply/info.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of nasty phlegm.  I guess what baffles me is how i get clear drainage
> out my nose, yet tons of yucky stuff post-nasally?  

Because the opening to your throat is a lot wider than your nostrils,
and because the action of the cilia (hair cells) is to sweep secretions
*backwards* from your nose to your throat, the phlegm follows the path
of least resistance.

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net

Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Don Brady - 11 Aug 2005 19:50 GMT
>Thanks for the reply/info.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>of nasty phlegm.  I guess what baffles me is how i get clear drainage
>out my nose, yet tons of yucky stuff post-nasally?

As Steven mentions, after it gets thick beyond a certain point it just goes
backwards, not forward any more.

Eventually when/if you cure your sinsuitis, the backward drainage will stop and
you will have more forward drainage again.

> Does this indicate
>more mucus in any particular sinus?  I imagine the good part is that it
>IS draining instead of staying blocked/trapped.

You are correct.

>I actually feel a bit better today than i did yesterday.  From a
>headache standpoint, i am in much better shape than yesterday.  I am
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>fly in the future, my ENT said i should use some afrin to combat
>blockage.
tyler.schacht@gmail.com - 16 Aug 2005 16:58 GMT
I figured i would provide an update to my situtation.  I've been
treating this head cold aggressivly.  I estimate i'm about 85% better.
I still have some postnasal drip, but it is mostly clear and sometimes
white.  Very seldom is it the greenish/brownish crud that was being
produced at the peak of this head cold.

I've been irrigating 4x /day .  The past few days i've been using ice
for brief periods on my ethmoid/frontal region, as well as using cold
water irrigation.  I decided to try cold water irrigation based on the
following site:

http://www.coldresearch.org/

I can't scientifically state that the 'cold' approach has helped my
recovery, but in my opinion it made a postive difference.  I took the
approach that my main concern was decreasing swelling as much as
possible to allow drainage.  I believe the ice and cold water can aid
that process via their vasoconstricting properties.  I also have
stopped the claritin the past couple of days in the belief that some
increased mucus production, provided it can drain, is good for cleaning
out any remaining bacteria/gunk.

I'm going to continue this regimin the next few days and see if I can
complete my recovery.
Murray Grossan - 18 Aug 2005 17:35 GMT
On 8/16/05 8:58 AM, in article
1124207928.120013.145170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,

> I figured i would provide an update to my situtation.  I've been
> treating this head cold aggressivly.  I estimate i'm about 85% better.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> I'm going to continue this regimin the next few days and see if I can
> complete my recovery.

Irrigating four times a day may be too much removal of good enzymes .
tyler.schacht@gmail.com - 18 Aug 2005 20:29 GMT
What would you suggest for a max?  2 times?   During my FESS recovery
period, when i had my reinfection, my ENT suggested 4x daily.  That is
where i came up with that figure.  However, as i said in my longer
post, after irrigating that much, my sinuses felt 'sore' and 'beat up'
to an extent, even though the ENT said all looked great from an
infection standpoint.  After halting irrigation for a few days after
that, all felt good again.

Right now i'm down to either 1 or 2 times, depending on the level of
congestion i feel.  I irrigate in the evening, and then upon waking in
the morning, i decide whether i feel another irrigation is necessary
before starting the day.  This morning i decided i didn't need it.   My
right eustachian tube tends to get blocked when i irrigate frequently,
so that is incentive to play it conservative if at all possible.

I can say based on close observation that my right molar will ache a
lot when i irrigate frequently, even though there may be no infection
in the right maxillary region.  In fact, it was aching like this just a
couple of days ago, but has since subsided since i've slowed the
irrigations down.

Dr Grossan -- Do you have any opinion on cold water irrigation versus
warm water irrigation?  While warm water should help break up the
thicker mucus, cold water can provide benefits with decreasing
swelling.  My only concern is a negative effect on the cilia.  Is it
possible the cold water could be a shock to the system?
Murray Grossan - 18 Aug 2005 17:35 GMT
On 8/16/05 8:58 AM, in article
1124207928.120013.145170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,

> I figured i would provide an update to my situtation.  I've been
> treating this head cold aggressivly.  I estimate i'm about 85% better.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> I'm going to continue this regimin the next few days and see if I can
> complete my recovery.
sedum41 - 11 Aug 2005 16:38 GMT
I don't know how much you have read on sinusitis but a good book on the
subject is:

Sinus Survival: The Holistic Medical Treatment for Sinusitis, Allergies,
and Colds (Paperback)
by Robert S. Ivker
4th Rev&Up edition (August 1, 2000)
ISBN: 1585420581

This book has a lot of useful information and would recommend including
info on enhancing your general physical and emotional health to better
help you fight off sinus infections. Be sure to get the latest edition to
get the most up to date info. The fact that the book is on its fourth
version (or higher) tells you something.

Dr. Grossan who frequents this board also has a co authored a great book
that you may wish to check out - The Sinus Cure : 7 Simple Steps to
Relieve Sinusitis and Other Ear, Nose, and Throat Conditions (Paperback)

Both books were available at my local library.
afdr9lk - 12 Aug 2005 02:46 GMT
> I am desperate for anything that could help.  This sinusitus has ruined
> my summer with my family, and i can't fathom it coming back again and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Tyler

I would suggest you take acidophilus.  Take 4 tablets a day.  Make sure
you get fresh stuff.  It's cheap, you can't OD on it and I think it
made a huge difference in my life.  Do it for 4 months and report
back on how you are.  If you take anitbiotics make double sure you
are on acidophilus.   You may need the antibiotics to get rid of an
infection.  Make sure you are on it long enough for it to work and don't
do those short 3-5 day packs.  It could take months on anitbiotics to
totally clear up the infection.  But if you don't use the acidophilus then
you will end up in a vicious cycle.
tyler.schacht@gmail.com - 16 Aug 2005 16:44 GMT
Before my surgery, i experimented with both acidophilus and garlic.  I
noticed more congestion during the day each time after i took the
acidophilus.  I decided based on those limited observations to cease
taking it.  Maybe the cause of extra congestion was related to
something else.  I will research and consider trying the acidophilus
again.
Murray Grossan - 18 Aug 2005 17:34 GMT
On 8/16/05 8:44 AM, in article
1124207056.085790.283480@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,

> Before my surgery, i experimented with both acidophilus and garlic.  I
> noticed more congestion during the day each time after i took the
> acidophilus.  I decided based on those limited observations to cease
> taking it.  Maybe the cause of extra congestion was related to
> something else.  I will research and consider trying the acidophilus
> again.

Many persons are milk intolerant. You have to shop around to find a brand of
yougurt /acidopholus that you tolerate. They are all different since they
affect the milk in dofferent ways.
 
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