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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / July 2005

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Interesting ABX reaction

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DMF - 24 Jul 2005 07:38 GMT
All,

I had a bad sinus infection last year that lasted about
8 months. It finally cleared last fall with Levaquin (sp)
after trying a variety of other antibiotics, pred and Dr
Grossan's irrigator.  I have been (sinus) symptom free
this year... no congestion, no headaches, no PND, etc

Yesterday, I started a 10 day rx of Cipro and Metro-
nidazole for a non-sinus infection and today I have
noticed that I am getting sticky, clumpy, clear mucus
(like silicone gel or airplane glue) and slight PND -- very
similar to what I had when I had my sinus infection except
no color.  I think I am going to dust off my irrigator and
use it while I am on the ABX to help the cilia remove
the sticky mucus.

One of the antibiotics I used during my sinus infection was
Cipro.  Is sticky mucus  a common side effect of Cipro?
If so, is it possible that it aggravated my sinus infection by
making the mucus more difficult to clear?

Regards,
David
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 25 Jul 2005 15:58 GMT
This is probably a long shot, but it is possible that you have a
superinfection with a microbe that the cipro isn't getting.  I got an
infection with Stenotrophomonas that produced this type of mucus.  I
think that Cipro is one of the antibiotics that predisposes to it.  If
it doesn't clear, you might want to get a sinus culture done. There are
only a few antibiotics that it is susceptible to.  Also, the Steno can
be found in water including tap and even distilled water, so even if
you don't have this, make sure you sterilize your irrigator and boil
your water.   I think I may have gotten the Steno because I wasn't
using very sterile techniques in my irrigation.  I hope this isn't your
case.

Kathyw
Steven L. - 25 Jul 2005 17:03 GMT
> This is probably a long shot, but it is possible that you have a
> superinfection with a microbe that the cipro isn't getting.  I got an
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> you don't have this, make sure you sterilize your irrigator and boil
> your water.

I've brought this up with my ENT, but he maintains that for those of us
with relatively safe city tap water, using distilled or boiled water is
a waste of time because our nostrils are teeming with bacteria anyway.
Maybe a third of us have Staphylococcus aureus living in our nostrils,
which can cause infection if it gets trapped in our sinuses.  And when
we irrigate, we are flushing the bugs from our nostrils into our
nasopharynx anyway.

At the time, my ENT was doing a nasal endoscopy on me and his nurse was
temporarily unavailable to assist.  He asked me to hold one of his
instruments.  I said, "But Doctor, my hands aren't sterile."  He
replied, "Neither is your nose!"

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Susan - 25 Jul 2005 17:10 GMT
> I've brought this up with my ENT, but he maintains that for those of us
> with relatively safe city tap water, using distilled or boiled water is
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> instruments.  I said, "But Doctor, my hands aren't sterile."  He
> replied, "Neither is your nose!"

I think your ENT is wrong about the wisdom of sterilizing irrigation
solution for a couple of reasons.

First, it's easy to do and costs nothing, so what's to lose with a
little precaution?

Second, immune compromise is very common in chronic infection patients.

Susan
Steven L. - 25 Jul 2005 22:21 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> First, it's easy to do and costs nothing, so what's to lose with a
> little precaution?

It's not easy to do, when you do as much irrigation as I do.

And since the Grossan applicator tip is always contaminated by contact
with my moustache, I would have to shave it off.

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Susan - 25 Jul 2005 22:26 GMT
> It's not easy to do, when you do as much irrigation as I do.

I just poured some Brita filtered water into a two cup glass measure and
nuked it three times per day before irrigating.  I suppose you could do
so weekly in a large vessel and store it in a jug.

> And since the Grossan applicator tip is always contaminated by contact
> with my moustache, I would have to shave it off.

Why?  I mean, it may not be sterile, but it's probably dry and less
certain to be colonized by certain pollutants and microbes than tap
water is, no?

Susan
Steven L. - 26 Jul 2005 14:51 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> certain to be colonized by certain pollutants and microbes than tap
> water is, no?

My moustache picks up bacteria from my mouth when I lick my lips or eat
food.  Our mouths are a veritable zoo of bacteria, some of which are
pathogenic.  (In our mouth, the pathogenic bacteria are kept in check by
 competition from the harmless bacteria.)

Also, no matter how much you wash your hands, you'll never wash all the
bacteria off your hands.  So unless you wear sterile gloves when you
irrigate, you are constantly re-contaminating the irrigation apparatus
with your fingers.

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Susan - 26 Jul 2005 14:57 GMT
> Also, no matter how much you wash your hands, you'll never wash all the
> bacteria off your hands.  So unless you wear sterile gloves when you
> irrigate, you are constantly re-contaminating the irrigation apparatus
> with your fingers.

There are avoidable risks, though.  Introduction of pathogens directly
into delicate mucosal tissues is probably the most efficient means of
transmitting them.  There's also such a thing as critical load; your
body gets used to living with certain microbes that it hosts, but can't
overcome the boatload you shoot right into your sinuses, potentially.

Plus, if I were getting the irrigator tip loaded with bacteria from a
mustache (no, I don't have one!), I'd wash my mustache before irrigating.

I never see my husband lick stuff off his mustache, though. It's above
his lip, not on it.

Susan
MS - 29 Jul 2005 17:01 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
>your
> body gets used to living with certain microbes that it hosts, but can't
> overcome the boatload you shoot right into your sinuses, potentially.

Well, if one is to be concerned about that, one probably should not irrigate
at all.

Even if the water/solution you use is free of contaminants, it goes through
your nose, which is always full of all kinds of microbes. Whatever of the
fluid gets into the sinuses is then carrying microbes from the nose into the
sinuses. I think it is not inconceivable that irrigation could cause
infection in some instances, regardless of whether the original solution was
microbe-free. Normal, uninfected sinuses are supposed to be sterile, I
think. However, no one's nose is sterile, it is full of microbes. In
irrigating you are shooting fluid through the nose, thereby getting full of
microbes, before getting to the sinuses, thereby potentially causing
contamination.

Also, your irrigating equipment can never be 100% contaminant-free. Even if
you wash bleach through your Waterpik or other device once a week, as some
recommend, bacteria will grow in it in between. It is sitting there in
between, wet inside, of course it is not sterile.

I guess the idea is though, that it is better to wash out the accumulated
dried-up junk out of the nose (and perhaps partially from the sinuses), that
keeping it clean from that junk will help prevent infection, even though one
might be exposing the sinuses to more microbes through irrigation. (Not all
ENTs recommend irrigation though. I have been to a couple who recommended
against it, although most seem to be for it.)

For someone who doesn't need to, whose nose and throat seems to clear the
accumulated mucus naturally, it might actually be better not to irrigate,
which could potentially spread infection, inflame and dry the tissue, etc.
But for those of us who get clogged with thick persistent mucus sticking in
our noses, sinuses, throats, it is probably better to wash it out, it
certainly feels better afterwards.
Susan - 29 Jul 2005 17:34 GMT
> Well, if one is to be concerned about that, one probably should not irrigate
> at all.

Uh, come again???

> Even if the water/solution you use is free of contaminants, it goes through
> your nose, which is always full of all kinds of microbes. Whatever of the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> microbes, before getting to the sinuses, thereby potentially causing
> contamination.

Uh, you're flushing them out, not introducing them...

> Also, your irrigating equipment can never be 100% contaminant-free. Even if
> you wash bleach through your Waterpik or other device once a week, as some
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> our noses, sinuses, throats, it is probably better to wash it out, it
> certainly feels better afterwards.

Why on earth would anyone who didn't need to, irrigate???

I'm stumped.

Susan
MS - 29 Jul 2005 23:33 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > microbes, before getting to the sinuses, thereby potentially causing
> > contamination.

> Uh, you're flushing them out, not introducing them...

Yes, of course you are washing out your nose with irrigation, and hopefully,
at least partially the sinuses as well. However, as I mentioned, for that
solution to come from the irrigation device and get to your sinuses, it has
to go through your nose, which is always contaminated with microbes. It
stands to reason that the solution will pick up some microbes in the nose on
the way to the sinuses. So yes, the purpose of irrigation is to wash out
junk, but it also is quite likely spreading microbes from the nose to the
sinuses.

> Why on earth would anyone who didn't need to, irrigate???
>
> I'm stumped.
>
> Susan

I don't know. Not a major question there. People do all kinds of things in
this world, not all of which make sense. There probably are some people with
no nasal problems who irrigate, probably not many.

It's all a matter of degree though. Someone who only has very mild rhinitis,
might read this NG and decide to irrigate. But perhaps that person might be
better off without it. In my case, however, my nose, throat, sinuses, get so
completely clogged with horrific amounts of thick sticky tenacious mucus, I
would be miserable if I didn't irrigate. (I assume you are probably in a
similar boat.) Where the dividing line is about "needing to irrigate", is of
course not clear, no sharp dividing line about where irrigation is
necessary. (As I said, I've been to some ENTs who recommended that I stop
irrigating, even with my severe rhino-sinusitis, so those ENTs probably
dissuade all their patients from irrigating, and would say it is necessary
for no one.) I was just trying to say that someone, even if they have mild
nasal problems, who can get by fairly well without irrigating, might be
better off not to do so, at least not on a regular basis. Just speculation,
as for myself I would be miserable without irrigation.
Susan - 30 Jul 2005 01:40 GMT
> Yes, of course you are washing out your nose with irrigation, and hopefully,
> at least partially the sinuses as well. However, as I mentioned, for that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> junk, but it also is quite likely spreading microbes from the nose to the
> sinuses.

I suppose it's possible, but I doubt that the nostrils have much to
compare to the sinuses, closed, dark, damp as they are...

> I don't know. Not a major question there. People do all kinds of things in
> this world, not all of which make sense. There probably are some people with
> no nasal problems who irrigate, probably not many.
>
> It's all a matter of degree though. Someone who only has very mild rhinitis,
> might read this NG and decide to irrigate.

Why would someone with "very mild rhinitis" read this newsgroup?  I
didn't even read it for all the years I suffered with chronic sinusitis.

 But perhaps that person might be
> better off without it. In my case, however, my nose, throat, sinuses, get so
> completely clogged with horrific amounts of thick sticky tenacious mucus, I
> would be miserable if I didn't irrigate. (I assume you are probably in a
> similar boat.)

Actually, I'm not.  And I haven't irrigated in about a couple of months.
 I am doing rapid allergic desensitization, though, and using oral and
nasal antihistamines.

> Where the dividing line is about "needing to irrigate", is of
> course not clear, no sharp dividing line about where irrigation is
> necessary.

If you're not getting congested and/or infected, there's no reason to
irrigate I think.

Susan
MS - 29 Jul 2005 16:49 GMT
> I just poured some Brita filtered water into a two cup glass measure and
> nuked it three times per day before irrigating.  I suppose you could do
> so weekly in a large vessel and store it in a jug.

And what microbes might grow in it in the jug?

Also, for some of us, no jug would be large enough to store all the water
one might need for irrigation in a week, needing a LOT of irrigation to
clean out the junk.

Also, if one did that, and wanted warm irrigation fluid, one would have to
warm it up before each use, while tap water can come warm from the tap.

When I've traveled in places where the tap water isn't considered safe to
drink though, I have used purified water purchased in bottles for
irrigation. (Didn't bother to warm it up, just used as is from bottle, mixed
of course with saline.)

But as Steven said, most docs will tell you that it is perfectly alright to
use tap water for nasal irrigation, if the water is considered safe to
drink.

Interestingly enough, one doesn't hear the same about saline solution to use
in the eyes. Saline solution is used for storing and washing contact lenses,
and it is strongly stated not to mix your own with tap water, that could
cause eye infections. I'm not sure why tap water is considered by most docs
to be safe for the nose and sinuses, but not for the eyes.
Susan - 29 Jul 2005 17:32 GMT
> And what microbes might grow in it in the jug?

Depends how clean the jug is and how carefully you handle it.  I
wouldn't store it past one week.

> Also, for some of us, no jug would be large enough to store all the water
> one might need for irrigation in a week, needing a LOT of irrigation to
> clean out the junk.

It would have been plenty for me, but I just nuke 2 cups when I need it.

> Also, if one did that, and wanted warm irrigation fluid, one would have to
> warm it up before each use, while tap water can come warm from the tap.

And this is a problem because...?

> When I've traveled in places where the tap water isn't considered safe to
> drink though, I have used purified water purchased in bottles for
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> use tap water for nasal irrigation, if the water is considered safe to
> drink.

How many can you cite to represent "most docs?"  Not the docs I've
discussed it with.

> Interestingly enough, one doesn't hear the same about saline solution to use
> in the eyes. Saline solution is used for storing and washing contact lenses,
> and it is strongly stated not to mix your own with tap water, that could
> cause eye infections. I'm not sure why tap water is considered by most docs
> to be safe for the nose and sinuses, but not for the eyes.

It isn't, it's not.

Susan
MS - 30 Jul 2005 00:01 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes

> > But as Steven said, most docs will tell you that it is perfectly alright to
> > use tap water for nasal irrigation, if the water is considered safe to
> > drink.

> How many can you cite to represent "most docs?"  Not the docs I've
> discussed it with.

Why so argumentative? Do you really want me to give you a number of doctors?
Do you want me to quote names, addresses, phone numbers?

I guess literally I cannot say "most docs", because I have not interviewed
every doctor in the world (or every ENT and allergist), so that I could make
a definitive statement about how many of those who recommend irrigation,
also recommend that the water be sterilized first. But there is no way that
I can make such a definitive statement about "most docs", so I'll take back
that statement. Does that make you feel better?

I'll put it a different way. Having suffered severely from chronic rhinitis
and sinusitis for my whole life, I have been to many ENTs and allergists
about it. Of those I have seen, a few have recommended that I not irrigate.
However, most thought irrigation was a good idea, most seem to advocate it.
Of those who advocate irrigation, not even told me to sterilize the water
used in irrigation.

I have also read extensively about sinus problems, rhinits, and irrigation,
including this NG for years, and except for a few posts here by people who
thought it best to sterilize, the majority of writers (relaying what their
doctors told them) have apparently not been told to sterilize the water.
(See Steven's post, for example.) And one ENT, who seems to advocate
irrigation more than anyone, who invented irrigation devices, and writes
here regularly, Dr. Grossan--I have never seen a statement from him that the
irrigation water should be sterilized first.

So---the consensus of opinion of irrigation advocates, including doctors,
seems to be that it is not necessary to sterilize irrigation water, at least
in countries where the tap water is considered safe to drink. (Please notice
the word "seems" in the preceding sentence--of course I haven't interviewed
all of them.)

We could do a poll here, although that is also unscientific--asking of
readers who have been told by their docs to irrigate, how many have been
told to sterilize the water first?

Obviously though, there are some who do not agree with that consensus, such
as the doctor who told you to sterilize. And it certainly is possible that
you are right--the majority of opinion is certainly not always correct. It
is possible that you will be better off irrigating with sterilized water,
than those of us who do not use sterilized water. I certainly was not
criticizing you for doing so, just saying that the consensus of medical
opinion vis-a-vis irrigation seems to think otherwise. (Which doesn't make
them right. Often minority opinions end up being seen later as correct, and
majority opinions fallacious.) No reason to get mad at me for stating that.

MS wrote:
>> Interestingly enough, one doesn't hear the same about saline solution to use
>> in the eyes. Saline solution is used for storing and washing contact lenses,
>> and it is strongly stated not to mix your own with tap water, that could
>> cause eye infections. I'm not sure why tap water is considered by most docs
>> to be safe for the nose and sinuses, but not for the eyes.

>It isn't, it's not

You might be right. Again, I was just pointing out that while most eye
doctors seem to say not to use homemade saline solution for the eyes, only
sterilized commercial solutions, most ENTs and allergists who advocate
irrigation (at least of those I've been to and read about) do not say that
the irrigation water for the nose should be sterilized first. I was just
pointing out the paradox there, not sure why there is that difference in
what is generally recommended, but that it is there.

Again, you might well be right, that the water should be sterilized. Just
pointing out that that doesn't seem to be the majority view.
Susan - 30 Jul 2005 01:46 GMT
> Why so argumentative? Do you really want me to give you a number of doctors?
> Do you want me to quote names, addresses, phone numbers?

Yes, I want you to cite some authority to back an assertion such as that.

I'm arguing against anyone who has access to fire or electricity
irrigating with a non-sterile solution, to reduce NOT ELIMINATE the
risks of microbial contamination.

There's just no reasonable argument against minimizing the risk of
shooting new pathogens into mucosal tissue pockets in the head.

> I guess literally I cannot say "most docs", because I have not interviewed
> every doctor in the world (or every ENT and allergist), so that I could make
> a definitive statement about how many of those who recommend irrigation,
> also recommend that the water be sterilized first. But there is no way that
> I can make such a definitive statement about "most docs", so I'll take back
> that statement. Does that make you feel better?

It makes me feel that your information is more accurate and less likely
to mislead readers of this group, so yes, in that sense.

> I'll put it a different way. Having suffered severely from chronic rhinitis
> and sinusitis for my whole life, I have been to many ENTs and allergists
> about it. Of those I have seen, a few have recommended that I not irrigate.
> However, most thought irrigation was a good idea, most seem to advocate it.
> Of those who advocate irrigation, not even told me to sterilize the water
> used in irrigation.

I've been to a lot of docs my whole life.  A lot of the stuff they
failed to tell me had life threatening consequences, so that's a very
bad argument.  In fact, my most life threatening illnesses and
conditions are the result of misinformation from a great number of doctors.

> I have also read extensively about sinus problems, rhinits, and irrigation,
> including this NG for years, and except for a few posts here by people who
> thought it best to sterilize, the majority of writers (relaying what their
> doctors told them) have apparently not been told to sterilize the water.

Doctor's aren't very good about communicating important information,
I've found, *especially* about risks.

> (See Steven's post, for example.) And one ENT, who seems to advocate
> irrigation more than anyone, who invented irrigation devices, and writes
> here regularly, Dr. Grossan--I have never seen a statement from him that the
> irrigation water should be sterilized first.

 I thought he supported the idea recently when it came up.  In the
past, I've seen him recommend distilled water, IIRC.

> So---the consensus of opinion of irrigation advocates, including doctors,
> seems to be that it is not necessary to sterilize irrigation water, at least
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> readers who have been told by their docs to irrigate, how many have been
> told to sterilize the water first?

See way above; what doctors don't tell is no measure of what's good
practice.

Susan
MS - 29 Jul 2005 16:43 GMT
> Second, immune compromise is very common in chronic infection patients.
>
> Susan

I'm not sure that's true, although it might be the case with some patients.

Most sinusitis sufferers probably have allergy, or at least some kind of
hyperactivity of the immune system. The constant inflammation and
over-production of mucus is caused by an immune system that is not weak and
compromised, in fact quite the opposite--an immune system that unnecessarily
overreacts to so many things in the air, causing the inflammation and
over-production of phlegm. When the tissues are so inflamed, they easily
become infected.

Therefore, it is not a weak immune system causing the problem, but on the
contrary, one that is too strong.
Susan - 29 Jul 2005 17:29 GMT
> I'm not sure that's true, although it might be the case with some patients.

Well, it's true, but I could have stated it better and more inclusively
by saying "immune dysregulation" or "modulation".  This is still a
compromise, IMO.

> Most sinusitis sufferers probably have allergy, or at least some kind of
> hyperactivity of the immune system.

This may or may not be true.  But my sinus problems began with another
condition that dysregulated my immune system.  I, like many other folks,
have a combination of up and down regulation; hence immune compromise.

 The constant inflammation and
> over-production of mucus is caused by an immune system that is not weak and
> compromised, in fact quite the opposite--an immune system that unnecessarily
> overreacts to so many things in the air, causing the inflammation and
> over-production of phlegm. When the tissues are so inflamed, they easily
> become infected.

You've kind of missed the boat here; a person's immune system can be
both overactive and compromised. It's made up of all different kinds of
immune subclasses with different roles.  They don't all go up and down
together at the same rate.

> Therefore, it is not a weak immune system causing the problem, but on the
> contrary, one that is too strong.

Nonsense.  My immunse system is both strong and compromised.  It's been
modulated by other medical conditions.

Susan
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 25 Jul 2005 18:40 GMT
Stenotrophomonas is not a part of the normal flora.  It is similar to
Pseudomonas, but not as virulent.  However, it has caused me a lot of
misery.  It  never cultured out from my nasal passages, only my
sinuses.   I will never use unboiled water again, if there is the
slightest chance that I got this "bug" from the water, which my ID doc
says that I probably did.  There are so many different opinions out
there that I always do my own research now in addition to what the docs
say.  I have yet for the many that I've seen to tell me the same thing.

Kathyw
Steven L. - 25 Jul 2005 22:21 GMT
> Stenotrophomonas is not a part of the normal flora.  It is similar to
> Pseudomonas, but not as virulent.  However, it has caused me a lot of
> misery.  It  never cultured out from my nasal passages, only my
> sinuses.   I will never use unboiled water again, if there is the
> slightest chance that I got this "bug" from the water, which my ID doc
> says that I probably did.  

What is your water source?  City tap water or a private well?

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Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net

Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 25 Jul 2005 23:00 GMT
I assume it is city water.  It is chlorinated.  We don't have a well.
DMF - 26 Jul 2005 06:21 GMT
KathyW wrote in message ...
> This is probably a long shot, but it is possible that you have a
> superinfection with a microbe that the cipro isn't getting.  I got an
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> using very sterile techniques in my irrigation.  I hope this isn't your
> case.

When I was using the irrigator I always used distilled water and
disinfected it regularly.  I was very careful because one of my
concerns with irrigation was a self-inflicted infection.

The antibiotics I recently started were for a non-sinus infection and
then the symptoms appeared that I described in my original post. I
was not experiencing any sinus problems at all until I started the abx.

Now more mystery... I had the mucus and congestion for about a
day and now I am fine.  Some possiblities...

1) a short-term side effect of Cipro or Metronizadole.
2) I had a sinus infection but was asymptomatic and the abx
   purged it.
3) a heximer (sp) reaction -- where the abx kills off the infection
   in the body and you have a reaction due to bacterial cell deaths
   releasing toxins or allergins into the blood.
4) a coincidental (to taking the abx) allergy reaction to some thing
   else.

I don't know what it means but I was a bit concerned when that
nasty, sticky mucus came back but I'm okay now (sinus wise).

Regards,
David
kathywb2001@yahoo.com - 26 Jul 2005 12:52 GMT
I'm glad you are better.

Kathy
 
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