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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / August 2005Strange Observation in My Office
We are moving out of our office next week. After taking some pictures and papers off my walls I've noticed that the walls above my desk are really stained with grime. Behind my things you can really see how clean the walls used to be. I've only been in the building a few years. Not long enough for that amount of dirt to collect I don't think. In the past I've always noticed after removing notes that I've stuck to my wall that there was always a distinct mark left around the paper. Its almost like someone sprayed arround it with dirt. I find it somewhat odd. It does not seem normal to me. I've looked around the office and mine appears to be the only one where this has happend. Its only arround my desk too. Not on other walls? This has me wondering if there is some kind of strange fumes here because my sinus condition started the week I started this job in this office? Can anyone offer any explanations? I can provide pictures if it would help. David Sacramento, CA > We are moving out of our office next week. After taking some pictures > and papers off my walls I've noticed that the walls above my desk are [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > David > Sacramento, CA Could be from the ventilation system; is there a duct or vent that you can examine? Susan There is ventilation in the building. They are all over our office. Its strange that it just seems to be my office with this dirt on the walls. I had put filters over the vents some time ago and they got filthy. I just can't figure how that would make the walls so dirty in one area of my office? David Sacramento, CA > There is ventilation in the building. They are all over our office. Its > strange that it just seems to be my office with this dirt on the walls. > I had put filters over the vents some time ago and they got filthy. I > just can't figure how that would make the walls so dirty in one area of > my office? Let's see; your filters got filthy, your sinuses acted up and your wall is dirty. What's confusing you, exactly? Susan Why and how my sinus condition started? Thats why I am here......No doctor can tell me! Why I have to deal with all the time no matter where I go. I'm just looking for a cause and solution to my sinus problems. I was hoping that this maybe some kind of clue but I guess its hard to describe. Its not as simple as you stated. My sinuses didn't just act up when I'm near this dirty air. It all started the day I got the this job. It has not let up since, 6 years now no matter where I go my sinuses drain like crazy and it all started the day I got to this building. I don't know if its related? I'm just searching for a solution to get me back on track. No doctor seems to be able to help! Its frustrating as I'm sure you know. Something so simple causing so much grief! Maybe someones elso can offer some input? David Sacramento, CA > Why and how my sinus condition started? Thats why I am here......No > doctor can tell me! Why I have to deal with all the time no matter [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > didn't just act up when I'm near this dirty air. It all started the day > I got the this job. I'm not at all surprised. Something may be coming thru the ventilation system that you're allergic to or sensitive to. Or the offending substance may be elsewhere: carpets, upholstery, etc. To prove it, take a long vacation (3 weeks at least), and see if your sinuses improve. And then after you get back to work, see if you get worse. If so, tell your Human Resources Department what you're experiencing, and ask them to find out if any other employees have reported similar symptoms. Insist that they bring in an industrial hygienist to run some tests on the air quality. If the industrial hygienist finds that the air quality is unhealthy, then either your employer has to remediate the problem (by cleaning the air ducts, for example), or else you'll have no choice but to find another job elsewhere.  SignatureSteven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. Actually, I've done all that to some degree. I took a 3 month leave and had no change in my symptoms! I had an Industrial Hygienest visit years ago. He basically bullsh**ed me and told me that there was no real way to test the air quality. The good news is that if it something in the building that caused my sinus problem were moving accross the street next weekend. I'm just affraid that what ever it that got this thing started will never go away even if the building was the cause. I really have no idea if this will ever go away. I just know that It drives me bananas and I dream of a day where I feel like myslelf again. Maybe after being away from the building will show some improvement in my symptoms. I pray that it does!!!! David Sacramento, CA > Actually, I've done all that to some degree. I took a 3 month leave and > had no change in my symptoms! I had an Industrial Hygienest visit years > ago. He basically bullsh**ed me and told me that there was no real way > to test the air quality. You're right, that's bullshit. He should have taken samples of the dust and debris in your office, including from the ventilation ducts and any areas in your office that looked particularly dirty. > The good news is that if it something in the building that caused my > sinus problem were moving accross the street next weekend. I'm just > affraid that what ever it that got this thing started will never go > away even if the building was the cause. That's possible. But in my case, it turned out to be a factory down the road that was spewing out gunk that the winds blew right over my home. After I figured that out, I had to move away from the entire neighborhood. That's why I suggested that you take a long vacation far away from the entire area, and see if your condition improves. SignatureSteven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. On 7/22/05 5:23 PM, in article 1122078220.314719.65650@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Dball63" <dball63@yahoo.com> wrote: > Actually, I've done all that to some degree. I took a 3 month leave and > had no change in my symptoms! I had an Industrial Hygienest visit years [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > David > Sacramento, CA Unfortunately the move or the vacation may not work. Before you had this condition, I assume, it took 100x units of dust to affect you. Now, with your condition, it only takes 2x units of dust to affect you. Before your condition you could go to the used book store and spend hours going through the used books. Now, as soon as you enter the store you have symptoms. I am only making this up, of course, as a generalization. But without the desensitization, this may be what you have. >Unfortunately the move or the vacation may not work. Before you had this >condition, I assume, it took 100x units of dust to affect you. Now, with >your condition, it only takes 2x units of dust to affect you. That is very true of my case. > Before your >condition you could go to the used book store and spend hours going through >the used books. Now, as soon as you enter the store you have symptoms. >I am only making this up, of course, as a generalization. But without the >desensitization, this may be what you have. Is densensitization to mold and dust usually successful? I had years of allergy shots and they did not appear to make any difference. > Is densensitization to mold and dust usually successful? > > I had years of allergy shots and they did not appear to make any difference. It's been miraculously helpful to me, once again, now that I went back to my old allergist. Rapid, 12 week desensitization schedule, continued desensitization at steadily increasing doses for the next 3 months at least. I went to another allergist for a year who practices more conventionally, and she hadn't even worked me up to desensitizing doese after a year of weekly shots. No wonder folks think allergy shots don't work. If my good allergist ever retires, I'm gonna shoot myself. Susan > It's been miraculously helpful to me, once again, now that I went > back to my old allergist. Rapid, 12 week desensitization schedule, > continued desensitization at steadily increasing doses for the next 3 > months at least. It is wonderful that this treatment worked for you. I went to two different ENT's, I had weekly injections for several years with each doctor and I had no improvement. I take Claritin every day and I try to avoid things I am allergic to. Becca >> It's been miraculously helpful to me, once again, now that I went >> back to my old allergist. Rapid, 12 week desensitization schedule, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Becca I went to clinical immunologists. The length of time isn't the determinant of effectiveness, IME, it's the strength of the dosage. Going every week for several years (I only had to go weekly for 12 weeks with the successful immunologist) suggests that you were getting miniscule dosages. Susan >I went to clinical immunologists. Is that the same as an allergist or different? > The length of time isn't the >determinant of effectiveness, IME, it's the strength of the dosage. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Susan On 7/23/05 1:40 PM, in article vma5e1h04vcm6pnbsf0l6pb7ehc4uu2k12@4ax.com, > Is densensitization to mold and dust usually successful? It often is. On 7/22/05 4:29 PM, in article 6jfEe.6650$dU3.2640@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Steven L." <sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote: > I'm not at all surprised. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > air ducts, for example), or else you'll have no choice but to find > another job elsewhere. Above is excellent advice. You can also call on OSHA = they have a california office to investigate the air, etc. They can tell you which molds are dominant and your worker's comp can order the allergy tests and treatment. > Why and how my sinus condition started? Thats why I am here......No > doctor can tell me! Why I have to deal with all the time no matter [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > David > Sacramento, CA Sorry, I wasn't dismissing your questions, but no one here can tell you what the pathogens in your ventilation system at work might be. The fact that it still bothers you away from the office may be due to the fact that the bug has grown in your sinuses or that your sinuses are reacting to the chronic irritation and producing inflammation. Wherever you work, filters are a good idea. A powerful HEPA filter can be useful too, I've found here at home. Susan >.... The >fact that it still bothers you away from the office may be due to the >fact that the bug has grown in your sinuses or that your sinuses are >reacting to the chronic irritation and producing inflammation. Yes, unfortunately, once you have chronic sinusitis, just removing the cause will no longer immediately cure the problem. It might clear over time, though, if you do eliminate the cause completely (say by moving), or you might need at least medical therapy. There is also the possibility that the dirt in the original poster's office was at most a contributing factor and that there are other so-far-undiagnosed factors. Sinusitis usually has two or more causes in an individual, not just one. It sounds like the air ducts need to be cleaned. This should of been reported to the Health Dept as it could have mold or fungus in the ducts. Years ago I worked at a Bank and a couple of us employees got headaches the minute that we walked in the building. But none when we were away from it. We reported this to our Boss but nothing was done then. That bank was sold later and the building had to be inspected and what was found was the air ducts were covered inside with mold. shirley On 7/22/05 4:10 PM, in article 1122073822.972730.36850@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Dball63" <dball63@yahoo.com> wrote: > Why and how my sinus condition started? Thats why I am here......No > doctor can tell me! Why I have to deal with all the time no matter [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > David > Sacramento, CA It would be useful to have the grime examined for mold, etc. Then you can be tested for sensitivity to that mold. If positive, you can be desensitized. Is it possible that there is some rotting vegetation, etc. that is outside of your office that may have mold in it? That was true in my case and the air returns were bringing in the mold spores. I won't go into the whole story, but later mold testing showed a lot of airborne mold spores. Dust on top of a tall cabinet was sampled and had over 1 million CFUs of mold spores that weren't actually growing. So mold could be in the dust. Most air filters, unless they are HEPA won't get all of the spores because many are too small. You might want to get some samples with sterile swabs before you leave and have it tested. You can order plates to culture for mold or send them off to have them tested. Or better yet, if you have a company near you that does mold testing, they could probably give you (or sell) some sampling bottles to use and tell you where to send them to. If you are not allergic to mold, then you could have been exposed to mold toxins (mycotoxins) which was true in my case. Even dead spores of toxic molds such as stachybotrys, Fusarium, and some species of Aspergillus and Penicillium can cause problems. This may be a long shot, but if it's only in your office, something must be coming in thru the ducts or air returns going into your office. Kathyw I am currenty getting allergy shots for dustmites only. I've only been doing this for 2 months now. I'm not really sure what is up with our building. I know that my office was a storage room prior to me starting and that scares me some. Specially after I became so ill after being in there for a few days. I wondered what the hell was in there before I go there. I'm not sure that it was related or not. Like I said earlier, I took 3 months off from the office to determine if the building was the cause. I had no change in my sinuses while I was away! Others that visit our office always say that it smells strange. Sometimes I can smell it too. especially on the weekends when the air conditioning is turned off it seems to be really strong. It smells like something electical burning I think. Do you think its all that important that I test the air in the building before we leave? I've only got a week and I'm super busy trying to coodinate the whole move. David Sacramento, CA I don't think that you would have time to get the air professionally tested. It wouldn't take much time to get some swab samples with a sterile Q tip and seal them up in baggies if you don't have time to get them from a company that does mold testing. Then you can send them off later. If you decide to do this I can give you some information on where you can send them. It would be better if you could get the sampling tubes from one of the companies because you seal them up in a little bottle. You can do the swabs yourself. You swab an area about the size of a buisness card. BTW, our school was closed down because stachybotrys was found in some rooms. When we came back we had that "burnt electircal" smell for several months. The remediation that they did stirred up more mold that I think created the smell. Stachybotrys or "black mold" can hide behind walls like that and you can't see it. Mold also gets worse when the air conditioning is shut down because the humidity goes up. My exposure ended up being to a mold called Fusarium and I was exposed to at least 2 toxins produced by it. I taught Biology and had never heard of that mold until it was found in some black debris that fell all over my room after the remediation. Even if it isn't mold, you might be able to send it somewhere and have it identified. I think it would take longer than 3 months to see a difference in your sinuses whether it be an allergic reaction or a toxic reaction. If it were me, I would want to know what the stuff on the wall is especially since you got sick right after moving there. Do you know what was stored in that room? Kathyw Kathyw, I wouldn't mind obtaining some samples myself and having them tested. What exactly should I use to do it? Where can I find sterile Q tips quickly? Is that something I can find at a retail pharmacy maybe? Also where can I send it to be tested? Obvously, I'd love to know. I've been battling for to find a solution to my sinus trouble for 6 years now. Its affected my life quite a bit. David Sacramento, CA David, I searched the web for mold testing in the Sacramento area and the best site seemed to be at: http://www.cal-iaq.org/BioLabs.htm If any of these are near you, you might want to call them and ask them if they could provide you with a sampling bottle. The only one that I saw in Sacramento was Micro Test Laboratories. The phone number is (916) 567-9808. They don't have a web site. I don't know if any of these labs actually interpret the results.. I do know that EMSL Laboratories is reputable at interpreting results and there is an office in California. Their website is http://www.moldtestinglabs.com/ Their site also tells you how to do a tape lift sample using clear scotch tape. That sounds like your best bet if you can't get the sampling bottle in time. These are the instructions for doing the tape lift. 1.Take a few inches of clear tape. Avoid touching the sticky side, especially the part touching the mold. 2.Wearing gloves, apply the central inch of tape to the suspect area (choose one that is free of extraneous debris). Apply light pressure to the non-adhesive side. 3.Pull tape off surface with slow, steady pressure, holding the tape edges only. 4.Apply sticky side of tape to the inside of the plastic bag. 5.Ensure there are no folds or creases in the tape. 6.Close bag 7.Put only one sample in each bag. You can mail this to: EMSL Analytical, Inc. 159 Pasadena Avenue South Pasadena, CA, 91030 You still might want to take a swab sample also in case it doesn't show mold. You can get Q tips at any drug store, Walmart, etc. and put in a zip lock plastic baggie. EMSL may also do that kind of testing. You can calle them at 1-800-303-0047. Hope this helps. Kathy Here are some pics of the spot in my office that I have been talking about. This is just above my desk. http://www.geocities.com/sale916/oldoffice01.jpg http://www.geocities.com/sale916/oldoffice02.jpg http://www.geocities.com/sale916/oldoffice03.jpg It looks like it could be mold to me especially on the last pic. Is there anything at all on the wall where you had the posters, etc.? Are there any stained ceiling tiles above the area? Is your heating/cooling unit or air intake near that wall? It looks like it is mainly in that one corner? Is there actually something that tape or a swab could pick up or is it just a stain? Most of the stains appear to be just around the things I had on the wall. The strange thing is that sometimes I would place a reminder on my wall for just a few weeks and when I removed it, I could see an outline. I never thought much about other than it was weird. I though maybe the paint was playing tricks with my eyes. Now that I've taken everything off, I can really see the stains. There is air ducts in the ceiling but not too close to my desk really. At least it doesn't look like the air duct is blowing in that vecinity to me. I did smudge the stains with my finger to see how thick it was so I think a swab or tape could collect something? Heres antoher pic of my office just a few months after my starting. The walls are much cleaner. http://www.geocities.com/dball63_1/working/work_2.jpg David Sacramento, CA > It looks like it could be mold to me especially on the last pic. Is > there anything at all on the wall where you had the posters, etc.? > Are there any stained ceiling tiles above the area? Is your > heating/cooling unit or air intake near that wall? It looks like it > is mainly in that one corner? Is there actually something that tape or > a swab could pick up or is it just a stain? There is a dramatic difference in the pictures. Do you know if there has been any kind of water intrusion from roof leaking, pipes bursting, etc. from the past. Could there be a leak in the air duct leading to your office? Did you check for stained ceiling tiles? Kathyw No, there has been none of that as far as I know. No water or smokers in the building as far as I know. No stained ceiling tiles either. I just had a co-worker notice my wall today. She thought it was strange too. David Sacramento, CA I still think there is a good chance it is mold. There could be some leak behind the wall from something. If it were some chemical, fumes or even just dust, I would think that you would expect it to be in more than one place You might want to call the EMSL and talk to someone about it. They could advise you better on what to send in. Personally I would not pursue it any further if you are moving anyway. One is never really able to prove cause and effect. It quite possibly did contribute to your condition, but that is all history now..... It may not be history if he keeps the symptoms after moving away. He said that he was away from the office for 3 months and didn't improve. Maybe he could be allergic to something in that "junk" that he wasn't tested for or maybe he is having some type of toxic reaction that could possibly be treated if the source were identified. If something does turn up, he could have allergy tests for whatever is there; blood work can also be done to show if IgG antibodies are present to show chronic exposure or show if he had been sensitized. If positive, it doesn't prove that he was exposured there or even when the exposure was, but he might know what to avoid when possible. It doesn't cost much to do the swabs and/or tapelifts and have them analyzed. If it shows nothing, then at least he has the peace of mind that this "junk" wasn't what was making him sick and he can search elsewhere. Kathyw > Here are some pics of the spot in my office that I have been talking > about. This is just above my desk. > http://www.geocities.com/sale916/oldoffice01.jpg > http://www.geocities.com/sale916/oldoffice02.jpg > http://www.geocities.com/sale916/oldoffice03.jpg Is there any heavy smokers in the offices? Could be smoke stains. But, whatever it is, I wouldn't want to be in there.! :) ...Allen I don't think that it is smoke stains from office smokers. I did have my wife look at the photos. She works for a fire and water restoration company. The also so mold work too. So I gave the same photos to her and she showed some of the guys that do the jobs for her. They thought from the pictures it does not look like mold but it definatly looks like soot from the air system. They say that they see this quite a bit and the pictures are pretty typical of what they see. They say that I can sample it and have evaluated. I may take the samples and just hold on to it for later in case I want to get it tested. I'm not so sure that this stuff would cause my sinus problems, but I don't think it helping that I'm in here breathing this stuff all day. I plan to show these photos to my allergist and see if he has any ideas. For now I'm just glad that I'm leaving this dump. David Sacramento, CA The "soot" from the air system can contain mold spores. I'm telling you all of this from experience. The black junk that covered my computers did not look like mold; the black junk that spewed out of my air returns did not look like mold either. I'm not sure why I even had it tested, except that I had really gotten sick. I didn't think it would have mold, but it came back 43,000 spores/swab of Fusrium which can be a toxic mold. I tested positive to chronic exposure to T-2 toxin that is produced mainly from Fusarium and some from Stachybotrys. I'm not sure of the significance of my level of exposure, but if youj look up T-2 toxin the informatin about its effects are pretty disturbing. The junk can contain the spores without them activiely growing at the time. Even if the spores are dead they can be toxic. So at least be careful as you move your stuff and try not to disturb anything. I would use a mask. I cleaned the mess up myself and then got extremely ill. I have never completely recovered, especially my sinuses which have been messed up for a long time anyway. Good luck!! Kathyw I am currenty getting allergy shots for dustmites only. I've only been doing this for 2 months now. I'm not really sure what is up with our building. I know that my office was a storage room prior to me starting and that scares me some. Specially after I became so ill after being in there for a few days. I wondered what the hell was in there before I go there. I'm not sure that it was related or not. Like I said earlier, I took 3 months off from the office to determine if the building was the cause. I had no change in my sinuses while I was away! Others that visit our office always say that it smells strange. Sometimes I can smell it too. especially on the weekends when the air conditioning is turned off it seems to be really strong. It smells like something electical burning I think. Do you think its all that important that I test the air in the building before we leave? I've only got a week and I'm super busy trying to coodinate the whole move. David Sacramento, CA > We are moving out of our office next week. After taking some pictures > and papers off my walls I've noticed that the walls above my desk are [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > David > Sacramento, CA What if your collegues and competitors do some tricks on you and spray allergens intentially in your position in order to make you unfit for the job? |
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