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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / August 2005Ever want to pour something into your nose to stop Chronic Nasal Infections?
After I suffered with multiple sinus infections, year after year, for decades, I experimented with flooding my nasal passages with an anti-infective mixture that could kill germs and infection, without killing me. I found a safe way, for me, to keep my forehead pointed down, for a few minutes, with my nasal passages flooded with a mixture of diluted 3% hydrogen peroxide, baking soda and kosher salt. Sinus flooding not only killed my sinus infection, but also has kept me infection free, without having to use antibiotics. . I have now been sinus infection free for over 3 years. I think that my chronic infection problems were associated with my turbinates, so the anti-infective mixture worked very well, for me, since the infected areas were fairly easy to reach. . Here is the link to the detailed documentation of the "Upside Down Sinus Flooding: http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-upsidedown . . "If you save one life, it is as though you save the entire world" > After I suffered with multiple sinus infections, year after year, for > decades, I experimented with flooding my nasal passages with an [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > . > "If you save one life, it is as though you save the entire world" You know, CanDo, you sound more and more like a spammer when I read your posts. Of course your not 'spamming', but you don't really need to keep posting this, at least to me, irritating post of *what* worked for you. I tried your method and burned the hell out of my nose, and did nothing after several tries. We, on this group, I believe have read your theory...hopefully it will be posted in the FAQ's so you can stop plugging it every week. Glad it worked for you...now please give us a break. ...Allen >>After I suffered with multiple sinus infections, year after year, for >>decades, I experimented with flooding my nasal passages with an [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > ...Allen No one appointed you to speak for this group. The purpose of reposting is so that newer readers will see the information, which I found very helpful. Susan >>> After I suffered with multiple sinus infections, year after year, >>> for decades, I experimented with flooding my nasal passages with an [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >In news:3innfmFlvq95U1@individual.net, >Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> typed: > No one appointed you to speak for this group. > > The purpose of reposting is so that newer readers will see the > information, which I found very helpful. > > Susan I've seen your posts on this group several times, so you are not *new* to the group and I'm sure you may have found the above post by CanDo interesting, as I did, when he first posted it for the 1st or 3rd time, not the 25th time like some spammer. I'm not the moderator of this group, nor are you. I am just stating a fact about CanDo's posts. According to your theory, all posts should be repeated at least every couple of days so new readers won't miss them? Can you really be serious? That would create a real thrill in finding a really current post now would't it? ...Allen > I've seen your posts on this group several times, so you are not *new* to > the group and I'm sure you may have found the above post by CanDo > interesting, as I did, when he first posted it for the 1st or 3rd time, not > the 25th time like some spammer. I'm not the moderator of this group, nor > are you. Exactly. This is unmoderated usenet, and reposting non-commercial, helpful information periodically is perfectly acceptable practice. I've only been here a few months. I am just stating a fact about CanDo's posts. According to your > theory, all posts should be repeated at least every couple of days so new > readers won't miss them? Can you really be serious? That would create a real > thrill in finding a really current post now would't it? > > ...Allen Yeah, I'm serious. FAQs are posted frequently, too, to supply helpful info to newbies. Instead of whining, why not just employ your kill file? Susan So should we all start posting what helps us once a month? > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Susan >So should we all start posting what helps us once a month? You have a point, and in theory I agree with you in an ideal world, but if his motivation is honestly to help people, he is non-commercial, and he is not doing harm, maybe we should let it go. Once a month is.a pretty low frequency. If he were representing his posts as being endorsed by the group as a whole, then I would feel differently. But I do not think he is doing that. I think that most readers are pretty discerning as to what is individual ideas and what is accepted medical science. Unfortunately,a few are not and will fall for every fad notion that comes along. We have hounded some crassly commercial or clearly abusive posters out of the newsgroup, but with the structure as loose as it is, it is really hard to go much beyond that, unless we want to go as far as to adopt a charter and/or go to a moderated group format. If you do feel very strongly about it, then we could start drafting a charter as to what is and what is not acceptable, and see if we could get a consensus on it. But that might be an enormous exercise...... I had thought about posting, about flooding the nasal passages with peroxide, much more than once per month but I wanted to balance my need to get my message out, with the needs of the others who use this informative and helpful newsgroup. You can't blame me for getting excited about nasal flooding. I've had "thank you" responses from a budding actor in New York, whose sinus condition was preventing him from applying his trade, to a teacher in Taiwan, whose chronic sinus infections were making him miserable, to a housewife "somewhere out there" who thanked me for saving her life. I would guess that she had given up, and the nasal flooding worked for her. It doesn't work for everyone. It works best for sinus infections within the nasal passages, but it also can help those with infections in the sinus cavities by keeping the infection from causing further misery within the nasal passages. For more information: http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-upsidedown See you next month! > So should we all start posting what helps us once a month? > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > > > Susan > So should we all start posting what helps us once a month? This is unmoderated usenet. Do whatever floats your boat, as long as it's within your terms of service. Susan >> I've seen your posts on this group several times, so you are not >> *new* to the group and I'm sure you may have found the above post by [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >In news:3io188Fmanv9U1@individual.net, >Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> typed: > Exactly. This is unmoderated usenet, and reposting non-commercial, > helpful information periodically is perfectly acceptable practice. > > I've only been here a few months. > >>Allen L. wrote: >> I am just stating a fact about CanDo's posts. According to your >> theory, all posts should be repeated at least every couple of days [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Susan wrote: > Yeah, I'm serious. FAQs are posted frequently, too, to supply helpful > info to newbies. > > Instead of whining, why not just employ your kill file? > > Susan This is *why* I posted the first of this so called 'complaint' about recurrent postings of the same 'spam' type of posting by CanDo...his posts may be helpful to some, granted, but his 'pounding' his info is a form of spamming the group. Why don't they put his 'invention' in the additives section of the F.A.Q.'s of alt.support.sinusitis and be *done* with it. The F.A.Q.s are routinely posted every month with a link, not a diatribe describing in detail the method, in complete form, cluttering the newsgroup. Here for anyone's info, is the *full* treatment and description offered by CanDo with full explanation marked with an "X" beside the date, the other dated references are partial explanations of his 'cure'. This info was found in the Google Group's archives. Posts by CanDo referencing his treatment with H.Peroxide (only a small portion... he has 56 or so posts, and all generally listing his link to H2O2 treatment, with a partial or full explanation). Following are just the most recent, ones with X are full descriptions...June was a banner month: May 19 June 1 X June 2 X June 5 X June 8 X June 11 June 26 July 2 X This, and only this, is what started my so called rant...enough is enough...once a month, fine, but this many...?? Remember, the dates above with the "X" are the full initial description of his 'method'. A little too much, in my honest opinion. *Not once a month by any reason*! I've not trying to create any 'flame' wars here...I do thank CanDo for the information...but try to get it into the F.A.Q.s and then it will be posted every month to all who care to read it. I can realize that is has helped 2 or 3 people, but this is not significant or conclusive enough to make it a 'cure'. ...Allen > >> I've seen your posts on this group several times, so you are not > >> *new* to the group and I'm sure you may have found the above post by [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > ...Allen Ho Ha!!! You caught me, you sly little devil! Actually, if you look at all those other posts in June, I was responding directly to specific posts by someone who might have a sinus infection problem which I think could be helped with a sinus flooding. Once a month, and ONLY once a month, I religiously post a standard note about sinus/nasal flooding. I do this in different forums around the Internet. But....... when someone posts a note asking for help, and I think that an "upside down sinus flooding" might be able to help, then I post directly to that note. I am so sorry that my activity causes you so much distress. I know that there are those who post a lot more posts than me. A LOT MORE. Checked out the hemorrhoid forum. You might be more interested in "upside down anal flooding" than in "upside down sinus flooding". <<Top Snipped>> >> Posts by CanDo referencing his treatment with H.Peroxide (only a >> small portion... he has 56 or so posts, and all generally listing [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > In news:oySxe.14795$ho.1281@bignews6.bellsouth.net, >CanDo <noemail@bellsouth.com> typed: > Ho Ha!!! You caught me, you sly little devil! > > Actually, if you look at all those other posts in June, I was > responding directly to specific posts by someone who might have a > sinus infection problem which I think could be helped with a sinus > flooding. Seems, you think *all* could be helped with your idea, don't you? Just to refresh your memory, this group is *about*and *for* people with sinusitis, so your above statement covers *all* posts to this group that are on topic, doesn't it? You are somewhat restrained...you could post your link to every new post in the forum that is on topic, now couldn't you? What has Dr. Grossan said about your 'cure'? Why don't you have the 'cure' posted very visibly in the sinusitis FAQ's? > Once a month, and ONLY once a month, I religiously post a standard > note about sinus/nasal flooding. I do this in different forums around > the Internet. But....... when someone posts a note asking for help, > and I think that an "upside down sinus flooding" might be able to > help, then I post directly to that note. I am so sorry that my > activity causes you so much distress. No distress here, just confusion...you want all of usenet to eventually know of your 'discovery'? You mean it cures just about everything? Hey, glad it worked for you...but give the rest of us a break. Once a month is plenty...be it a full post or just a link. Post like the rest of us...even Dr. Grossan, whom I think everyone admires, doesn't plug his device with *every* one of his answers! > I know that there are those who post a lot more posts than me. A LOT > MORE. > > Checked out the hemorrhoid forum. You might be more interested in > "upside down anal flooding" than in "upside down sinus flooding". Kindly post a link. I will gladly read it rather that having to read about peroxide's many wonders flooding this forum by your posts. Oh, and by the way <plonk> (killfile activated). ...Allen > <<Top Snipped>> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Grossan said about your 'cure'? Why don't you have the 'cure' posted very > visibly in the sinusitis FAQ's? Actually, at first I thought that I had discovered a significant cure for sinus infection. At that time, I had little knowledge about the structure of the sinuses, and the fact that many sinus and nasal structures can be deformed. I also found out that the maxillary sinuses are very difficult to reach with sinus flooding. You say that I think that *all* could be helped by my idea. Actually that is partially true. This is the exact post that I have been uploading once per month, just like the post that I had just uploaded here, a day or so ago: <===========================================> <===========================================> Ever want to pour something into your nose to stop Chronic Nasal Infections? After I suffered with multiple sinus infections, year after year, for decades, I experimented with flooding my nasal passages with an anti-infective mixture that could kill germs and infection, without killing me. I found a safe way, for me, to keep my forehead pointed down, for a few minutes, with my nasal passages flooded with a mixture of diluted 3% hydrogen peroxide, baking soda and kosher salt. Sinus flooding not only killed my sinus infection, but also has kept me infection free, without having to use antibiotics. . I have now been sinus infection free for over 3 years. I think that my chronic infection problems were associated with my turbinates, so the anti-infective mixture worked very well, for me, since the infected areas were fairly easy to reach. . Here is the link to the detailed documentation of the "Upside Down Sinus Flooding: http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-upsidedown . . "If you save one life, it is as though you save the entire world" <=======================================> <=======================================> As you can read, if you would bother to read it, I specifically state that I thought that my problems were related to my turbinates since the infected areas are easier to reach. In my documentation I also specifically state that I am not a health professional, and that I don't know if sinus flooding, with peroxide, will make someone's health better, or make someone's health worse. I would issue the same warning if I suggested that someone go on a diet that includes 100% whole grain. > No distress here, just confusion...you want all of usenet to eventually know > of your 'discovery'? You mean it cures just about everything? Hey, glad it > worked for you...but give the rest of us a break. Once a month is > plenty...be it a full post or just a link. Post like the rest of us...even > Dr. Grossan, whom I think everyone admires, doesn't plug his device with > *every* one of his answers! There are many people who are not computer savvy, and do not know how to look up old posts. That is why I repeat my sinus flooding post once a month, and also respond to specific posts during the month. Most of us go through life, having an impact on just those around us. Most of us would never dream of the possibility of being able to cure someone else's misery. Most Americans, if they could help others, would. You would not believe the wonderful feeling when I get "thank you" feedback from someone who had been in sinus misery for many years, and have seen significant improvement in their sinus disease. Many had gone through one or more sinus surgeries. Most had lost all hope. I sit back at night and think about those strangers, many of them thousands of miles away, who are also sitting back, but this time, not in sinus pain and misery for the first time in years. And I think about how miserable those strangers would feel right now if I just sat back and did nothing. > This is *why* I posted the first of this so called 'complaint' about > recurrent postings of the same 'spam' type of posting by CanDo... Do you actually know what real internet spamming is? posts > may be helpful to some, granted, but his 'pounding' his info is a form of > spamming the group. Once a month is "pounding" and "spamming" to you? > Why don't they put his 'invention' in the additives > section of the F.A.Q.'s of alt.support.sinusitis and be *done* with it. The > F.A.Q.s are routinely posted every month with a link, not a diatribe > describing in detail the method, in complete form, cluttering the newsgroup. Diatribe? I think the FAQ addition is a good one, FTR. But many might not see it and benefit from in there. Folks notoriously skip FAQs. Honestly, with kill files available, I have to wonder why, if it bothers you, you don't just KF him and be done with it, rather than trying to keep others from seeing it? > Here for anyone's info, is the *full* treatment and description offered by > CanDo with full explanation marked with an "X" beside the date, the other > dated references are partial explanations of his 'cure'. This info was found > in the Google Group's archives. It's a good suggestion but the very helpful info would be less available that way. > Posts by CanDo referencing his treatment with H.Peroxide (only a small > portion... he has 56 or so posts, and all generally listing his link to H2O2 [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > ...Allen Again, this is unmoderated usenet, and anyone can post within the charter and his TOS, whatever he likes. You and I can filter out that which we don't like. Why haven't you KFed CanDo if you're so troubled by his re-posts? Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Exactly. This is unmoderated usenet, and reposting non-commercial, > helpful information periodically is perfectly acceptable practice. The problem with CanDo's posts, as with all the other posts about "alternative" or home remedies, is that they tend to emphasize only how wonderful the treatment is, without stating any possible caveats or risks. Which forces folks like me to keep replying to his posts, constantly pointing out some caveats. I keep coming back to some common-sense concerns: With over 100 years of otolaryngology, hydrogen peroxide flooding has never become a widely prescribed treatment--not even by "alternative" medicine, AFAIK. So I have to wonder why? What's wrong with it? What does constant flooding with hydrogen peroxide do to the delicate mucous membranes of the nasopharynx, and to white blood cells and the other natural body defenses? What is the long-term effect of such a treatment? If the body finds it irritating or painful, could this be a warning that it's not good for you? If "CanDo" has achieved a true medical breakthrough here, he should discuss it with some ENTs and maybe it can go somewhere. But I'm really concerned about putting *anything* into the nasopharynx whose side effects are unknown. And problems can take a long time to show up--after which it may be too late. Look what's happened with Zicam, for example.  SignatureSteven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > wonderful the treatment is, without stating any possible caveats or > risks. He's not offering nor selling a service, he's just reporting personal experience in a usenet support forum. That's what these groups are for. Which forces folks like me to keep replying to his posts, > constantly pointing out some caveats. > Nothing wrong with that, either. > I keep coming back to some common-sense concerns: With over 100 years > of otolaryngology, hydrogen peroxide flooding has never become a widely > prescribed treatment--not even by "alternative" medicine, AFAIK. So I > have to wonder why? What's wrong with it? It's not a billable procedure, that's what. It worked for him, and it helped me (very dilute) and, apparently, others. This is the alt hierarchy, not sci.med. Frankly, most of the medical advice I've followed in my life from docs at presigious academic centers has harmed me. At least this is cheap and easily and safely tested at home. May save me an expensive, unreimbursed nasal wash endoscopy and other expensive and potentially unnecessary procedures. > What does constant flooding with hydrogen peroxide do to the delicate > mucous membranes of the nasopharynx, and to white blood cells and the > other natural body defenses? What does IV ceftriaxone do to the gall bladder, white blood cells and gut flora and other natural body defenses? Steroid sprays? What is the long-term effect of such a > treatment? If the body finds it irritating or painful, could this be a > warning that it's not good for you? Why, if it works, would anyone do it long term? In any case, I doubt it's as toxic as months of IV antibiotics or orals and antifungals, etc. I used a capful in a pint of water about 3 times to get dramatic improvement. > If "CanDo" has achieved a true medical breakthrough here, he should > discuss it with some ENTs and maybe it can go somewhere. Folks don't need ENTs to authorize us to take care of ourselves. But I'm really > concerned about putting *anything* into the nasopharynx whose side > effects are unknown. Including steroid sprays, decongestant sprays and their preservatives, etc? > And problems can take a long time to show > up--after which it may be too late. Look what's happened with Zicam, > for example. All the treatments we discuss here, self help and non rx'ed, have potential risks; that's the bitch about getting sick. I would bet that diluted hydrogen peroxide irrigation, short term, is the safest of all. Since you routinely advocate aggressive and invasive diagnostics, I'm puzzled by your concerns about a low risk, inexpensive treatment we can each evaluate for ourselves. Very curious and puzzled, in fact. Susan x-no-archive: yes Frankly, most of the > medical advice I've followed in my life from docs at presigious academic > centers has harmed me. Prestigious. Sheesh. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Prestigious. It counts for something at least..... >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > It counts for something at least..... Not in my experience, sadly. Caveat emptor, especially with medical care, all medical care. Susan >I would bet that diluted hydrogen peroxide irrigation, short term, is >the safest of all. Since you routinely advocate aggressive and invasive >diagnostics, I'm puzzled by your concerns about a low risk, inexpensive >treatment we can each evaluate for ourselves. Very curious and puzzled, >in fact. He just added some cautions, that's all, and quite properly so...... > He just added some cautions, that's all, and quite properly so...... I'm all for discussion, and anyone can add whatever cautions he wants. BUT, if the treatment the person is raising piddly, hypothetical cautions about is far safer, cheaper and accessible at low cost than those he appears to advocate, it makes me wonder what that's about. Susan >I'm all for discussion, and anyone can add whatever cautions he wants. Oh ok fair enough,,, >BUT, if the treatment the person is raising piddly, hypothetical >cautions about is far safer, cheaper and accessible at low cost than >those he appears to advocate, it makes me wonder what that's about. Steven has helped hundreds of people in this newsgroup in a non-agenda-driven way over many many years...... He does see some benefit in relying on methods and procedures that have been proven by scientific studies, and so do I. In general, that is a less risky route than attempting to do one's own risk analysis on new methods..... >>I'm all for discussion, and anyone can add whatever cautions he wants. > > Oh ok fair enough,,, I'd hoped I was clear. Within his TOS, anyone can post whatever he wants on usenet in unmoderated groups. I've no interest in shutting anyone down. > Steven has helped hundreds of people in this newsgroup in a non-agenda-driven > way over many many years...... I've seen numerous informative posts by him, and exchanged a couple of emails, I think. > He does see some benefit in relying on methods and procedures that have been > proven by scientific studies, and so do I. I don't see any potential for the kind of harm he speculated about in that critique. It's especially curious because the peroxide is dilute and not done long term, as he suggested. Further, this is a support group, and anecdotes are how many folks in such groups find useful treatment, whether medical or self help. I haven't seen (though I'm new) similar cautions about endoscopy, ceftriaxone, AFS therapy, etc... Also, AFS and its treatment, frex, is talked about as if it's a scientific fact here often, when it is merely a theory, from all I can find. >In general, that is a less risky > route than attempting to do one's own risk analysis on new methods..... Not really. Honest, I'm not arguing for the sake of being contrary. One can get very screwed up by accepting risk analyses by medical practitioners. Especially those with a profitable device or procedure to sell, or a pet theory to rest a career on, or a study that needs full enrolment. Been there, done that, bought too many of the T shirts. I always make my own risk analyses after consultations, reading the available science and talking to other patients. My body, my science experiment. Susan >Also, AFS and its treatment, frex, is talked about as if it's a >scientific fact here often, when it is merely a theory, from all I can >find. Actually I routinely tell people that its broad significance(at least) is just a hypothesis that is not widely accepted, and I've seen Steven do the same. But I'm glad we agree on that one! We also caution people routinely about excessive turbinate reduction (which can lead to empty nose syndrome), and (at least on my part) about overuse of the older Caldwell-Luc procedure by some practitioners (although it is still needed sometimes). Septal correction is often overhyped and overdone too. etc. etc. > >In general, that is a less risky >> route than attempting to do one's own risk analysis on new methods..... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >to sell, or a pet theory to rest a career on, or a study that needs full >enrolment. Those things can indeed happen. The lay patient needs to be critical but not completely cynical to the point they reject surgery when they really do need it. Unfortunately, we some of the latter here and I think it often leads to people getting no treatment and being in a bad way.. I do agree that the public needs to be *much* more critical about all treatmeants proposed, and get multiple opinions. Again, however, most people do not have time for extensive research on their own. So they have to find some experts to rely on, at least in part. > I do agree that the public needs to be *much* more critical about all > treatmeants proposed, and get multiple opinions. Again, however, most people > do not have time for extensive research on their own. So they have to find > some experts to rely on, at least in part. A prerequisite for that is better scientific education of the public. A public that understood the value of double-blind experiments, the significance of the placebo effect, what statistical significance means, what false positives and false negatives mean, etc., would be able to ask more informed questions and also be less prone to being bamboozled by snake-oil salesmen. SignatureSteven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. On 7/6/05 1:32 PM, in article pdXye.13738$jX6.10225@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Steven L." <sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote: > A prerequisite for that is better scientific education of the public. A > public that understood the value of double-blind experiments, the > significance of the placebo effect, what statistical significance means, > what false positives and false negatives mean, etc., would be able to > ask more informed questions and also be less prone to being bamboozled > by snake-oil salesmen. Every daily paper has an astrology column. Few if any have a science column. Books on saucers sell better than books on science. CortiSlim made 200 million dollars on a totally unproven diet pill with no scientific proof even hinted at. You can find many shows on TV on saucers, mystics, ghosts, etc. Try and find one on science. This year there was one show on HBO about heart surgery at Johns Hopkins. The rest were all Sex , killing, explosion and in the hood. Yet, they do give courses in science in high school, don"t they? > On 7/6/05 1:32 PM, in article > pdXye.13738$jX6.10225@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Steven L." [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > You can find many shows on TV on saucers, mystics, ghosts, etc. Try and find > one on science. Carl Sagan once lamented that you can't even find a show on television that gives a scientific explanation of how *television* works. SignatureSteven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. >> On 7/6/05 1:32 PM, in article >> pdXye.13738$jX6.10225@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Steven L." [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Carl Sagan once lamented that you can't even find a show on television > that gives a scientific explanation of how *television* works. He obviously never watched "The Secret Life of Machines". This series was a classic! http://www.secretlifeofmachines.com/the_tv_series.shtml >>> On 7/6/05 1:32 PM, in article >>> pdXye.13738$jX6.10225@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Steven L." [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > http://www.secretlifeofmachines.com/the_tv_series.shtml I think he was referring to prime-time shows on the major networks that have a chance of getting decent Nielsen ratings. SignatureSteven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. > A prerequisite for that is better scientific education of the public. A > public that understood the value of double-blind experiments, the > significance of the placebo effect, what statistical significance means, > what false positives and false negatives mean, etc., would be able to > ask more informed questions and also be less prone to being bamboozled > by snake-oil salesmen. A problem with this is who gets to decide what we need to know? I'm not a scientist, but I'm self educated enough to know how to critically evaluate claims and conclusions, and to be the judge of my own experience. All that's required is critical thinking skills and motivation, not an externally provided scientific education. Susan > Not really. Honest, I'm not arguing for the sake of being contrary. One > can get very screwed up by accepting risk analyses by medical > practitioners. Especially those with a profitable device or procedure > to sell, or a pet theory to rest a career on, or a study that needs full > enrolment. Been there, done that, bought too many of the T shirts. I think this is where we reach an impasse. There are some folks, like yourself, who actually seem to think that a large percentage of medical practitioners have ulterior motives and hidden agendas other than the well-being of their patients; the implication being that these medical practitioners deliberately treat their patients in ways that are deliberately less than optimal for the patient's benefit. That's a very serious charge, usually totally unsubstantiated. And it's also a double standard. If you're going to make ad hominem attacks on unnamed medical practitioners, then you should also accept the possibility that "CanDo" may have ulterior motives and hidden agendas of his own. The nice thing about scientific medicine is that it's a self-correcting enterprise; even if two different scientists each have a hidden agenda, the evidence they bring to bear in their scientific debate can be examined by all. With "CanDo" we have no detailed evidence to examine--not even of his own experience. We have no tissue samples or tissue cultures or bacterial cultures or CT scans to show what the effects of regular irrigation with hydrogen peroxide solution have been. > I always make my own risk analyses after consultations, reading the > available science and talking to other patients. My body, my science > experiment. You should make your own decisions. But you should also learn the difference between skepticism and cynicism. Too many people tend to confuse the two these days. SignatureSteven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. > I think this is where we reach an impasse. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > their patients in ways that are deliberately less than optimal for the > patient's benefit. I think the need to try and characterize another person as a type is an unfortunate and unwise one. We're not inside one another's heads, and can't know what each others' thoughts are. Do I think medical practitioners are motivated by the same things as all other business people are? Yes. But I don't think that all business people are corrupt and out to screw folks; I just don't take it on faith that someone has my, rather than his own, interests at heart just because s/he's a medical professional. Further, even among those who I would characterize as acting in good faith as healers, there are quite a few who just plain reach the wrong conclusions and cause harm anyway. So, caveat emptor, even when disregarding motives. > That's a very serious charge, usually totally unsubstantiated. I didn't make it, you made up the charge and attributed it to me. > And it's > also a double standard. If you're going to make ad hominem attacks on > unnamed medical practitioners, then you should also accept the > possibility that "CanDo" may have ulterior motives and hidden agendas of > his own. I never made any such attacks. I assumed that CanDo could be dangerously wrong, so I did online research, asked questions here that Murray Grossan answered, then tried a very dilute peroxide solution a few times and it helped. I don't take anyone's word for anything without doing my own homework. > The nice thing about scientific medicine is that it's a > self-correcting enterprise; even if two different scientists each have a > hidden agenda, the evidence they bring to bear in their scientific [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > what the effects of regular irrigation with hydrogen peroxide solution > have been. I'm still wondering why you haven't posted cautions about the dangers of IV ceftriaxone, for example, yet express so much concern about CanDo's method? > You should make your own decisions. > But you should also learn the difference between skepticism and > cynicism. Too many people tend to confuse the two these days. You presume too much knowledge of what I am and what I think. I have an open mind, but never so open that my brains fall out. I'm still wondering why you're not so thorough in warning folks about serious side effects of ceftriaxone (gall bladder removal, for one) or other treatments routinely discussed here? All have potential benefits, all have risks, with CanDo's method being probably the lowest, right after saline irrigation. Susan > I never made any such attacks. I assumed that CanDo could be > dangerously wrong, so I did online research, asked questions here that > Murray Grossan answered, then tried a very dilute peroxide solution a > few times and it helped. > > I don't take anyone's word for anything without doing my own homework. Would you mind sharing what benefits you received from the peroxide nasal flooding? The main benefits are the killing of germs/infection and the protecting of open sores within the nasal passages so that they don't re-infect. You were wise to question the validity and safety of my "upside down sinus flooding". I make absolutely no health or curative claims in the documentation, except for the results that I experienced personally. BUT....... over the years I had read about the sinus misery of others, and I thought that, if I could just benefit one other person by documenting my experience with flooding my sinuses with peroxide, baking soda and kosher salt, then it would be a sin to sit and do nothing. I have no idea how many people it has helped over the past year or two, but I've had somewhere around 20 positive feedbacks. Not breathtaking numbers, but I can be reasonably sure that there are some people in this world who feel a hell of a lot better because of my actions. Feels good. Even so, I don't know the structure of someone's nasal areas or sinus cavities, and I am not a health professional, and I certainly don't know even if normal irrigation would help or harm someone else. I have read all kinds of posts by people who have gotten liquid into their Eustachian Tubes and Middle Ear from just doing normal saline irrigation. I would hope that the sellers of irrigation equipment would have strong warnings with their equipment regarding the risk to the Eustachian Tubes. I have strong warnings and information regarding the Eustachian Tubes in my documentation. Upside Down Sinus Flooding documentation at: http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-upsidedown > Would you mind sharing what benefits you received from the peroxide nasal > flooding? I got rid of the infection and discharges of psychedelic hues and they've stayed away a couple of months. I also have no bruiselike soreness in the bone around my right ethmoid sinus for the first time in about 10 years or so. >The main benefits are the killing of germs/infection and the > protecting of open sores within the nasal passages so that they don't > re-infect. I don't know how or why this works, since it hasn't been studied. So far, so good, though. But I haven't had a cold yet. > You were wise to question the validity and safety of my "upside down sinus > flooding". I make absolutely no health or curative claims in the > documentation, except for the results that I experienced personally. I didn't use your upside down method; I put just under a capful into a pint of saline irrigation solution. No stinging, no irritation. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Susan Didn't use my method!? I feel hurt, soooooo hurt. (only kidding <g>) I guess the method of introducing peroxide to the source of the sinus/nasal infection is not important as long as one is able to get it there safely and effectively. I'm glad that you were able to improve your sinus infection misery through your own research. > x-no-archive: yes > All the treatments we discuss here, self help and non rx'ed, have > potential risks; that's the bitch about getting sick. Sarcasm as it's best! Thanks for the chuckle. > I would bet that diluted hydrogen peroxide irrigation, short term, is > the safest of all. Since you routinely advocate aggressive and invasive [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Susan Good comment! Anyone who would take the time to thoroughly read my "upside down sinus flooding" documentation at: http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-upsidedown would notice that I don't claim that this will cure everyone. I also state that, from the feedback that I have received, hydrogen peroxide seems to sting women worse than men, and suggest that women consider a much more diluted mixture. As far as long term use....... I am against long term use of the sinus flooding with peroxide. Once again, if people would take the time to read the documentation, they would notice that the main objective of the nasal flooding, besides killing whatever germs are in the nasal areas, is to keep nasal wounds free from infection until they heal. Once the nasal wounds are healed there is much less reason to do a peroxide nasal flooding, since the nasal membranes are much less prone to infection. Susan, once again, thanks for your posts. At least you did some research before taking your position. It irks me when people make a significant effort to criticize something that they haven't taken the time to read. It's far easier to be critical than to be objective. > Sarcasm as it's best! Thanks for the chuckle. I wasn't being sarcastic! I'm sick of getting sick and having to make risk/benefit choices, picking the lesser of two evils. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Susan It's not the first time I've been wrong. The subject was brought up about the dangers of Hydrogen Peroxide and Free radicals? Hydrogen peroxide is frequently made inside one's own body. The body's own white blood cells produce hydrogen peroxide when they encounter harmful microorganisms. In other words, hydrogen peroxide is the body's own magic bullet to fight against infection. Also.... Hydrogen Peroxide is also produced during other processes within one's own body. Does that mean that a sinus flooding with peroxide is perfectly safe for everyone? Of course not. I am not a health professional. I can't say if a sinus flooding with peroxide will be good for someone else's health or bad for someone else's health. I also can't say whether drinking milk will be good for someone else's health, or bad. I had chronic sinus infections for decades. I had sinus surgery, and lived in misery and with countless antibiotic prescriptions, only to get another sinus infection shortly after getting off the antibiotics. I have now gone over three years without a sinus infection, and have not had to take any sinus sprays in quite a long time. My sinuses feel great. If I hadn't discovered sinus flooding with peroxide, I would still be living in misery. I feel compelled to share my story with others in the hopes that others might also benefit from my experience. In my case, sinus medical professionals let me down. Not only did they not help to cure me of my sinus misery, they made me feel like I was an inconvenience to them. I always left the ENT's office without hope. I always felt like the ENT was silently asking me why I was wasting his valuable time. NOT ANY MORE!!! Any time I feel that my sinuses are becoming infected, or any time that I feel that I might be getting a cold, I will do an "Upside Down Sinus Flooding" with peroxide. I haven't done a sinus flooding in months. I hope to never have to do one again for the rest of my life. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I will probably have to do another sinus flooding before this year runs out. Thanks again Susan for your supportive comments and for trying to keep this newsgroup for open discussion and free from censorship. >>x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > magic bullet to fight against infection. Also.... Hydrogen Peroxide is also > produced during other processes within one's own body. Yes it's processed inside cells and regulated by the cells. Being dumped into cavities in your body is a whole different story. <snip> > I would bet that diluted hydrogen peroxide irrigation, short term, is > the safest of all. Since you routinely advocate aggressive and invasive [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Susan Are you concerned about free radicals being millimeters from your brain? Free radicals can form when catalase breaks down h2o2. > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Are you concerned about free radicals being millimeters from your brain? > Free radicals can form when catalase breaks down h2o2. I eat so low carb and so high in antioxidant phytonutrients that I guess it doesn't scare me at all. Free radicals are a fact of life. Killing infections means choosing your poison. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Susan Thanks for explaining to all why I post once a month. Even for me it gets frustrating. I'll go for months without anyone saying that it has helped them. Sometimes I say, "The hell with it. No one is listening anyway!" Then I'll get an email from someone, or someone will post a reply on a forum somewhere saying that it has helped to save them from a lifetime of misery, or someone like you will post some positive remarks. With all the noise that we are subjected to on Newsgroups I did not expect someone to be offended by my humble offering. > With all the noise that we are subjected to on Newsgroups I did not expect > someone to be offended by my humble offering. Maybe he was just having a cranky day. I added a capful of peroxide to my irrigation solution a few times, and for the first time in 10 years, the bone around my right ethmoid sinus doesn't feel sore and bruised, and I have only clear discharge. I still get an occasional sinus migraine from sleeping with windows open, but Astelin with Rhinocort and Afrin is now adequate to prevent symptoms, along with aggressive allergic desensitization. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Susan Peroxide is great stuff. Around four years ago, when I first searched through the internet, looking for a cure for my frequent sinus infections, the first post that I came across was from a girl who had tried peroxide in a cold water evaporator for her constant throat infections, and it had cured her throat infections. I bought a cold water evaporator and tried it for a few weeks, but it did nothing for my sinus infection. I then tried a hot steam machine with peroxide and that did nothing. Then....... one night I had it with my sinus misery. I went nuts, and out of frustration, kneeled down into the shower floor and flooded my sinuses with diluted peroxide. I used much too much peroxide to water, and the pain was awful. It completely closed up my sinuses for three full days. I cursed the night that I ever tried it. Obviously, in my mind, I had made my sinus condition worse. But..... after three days, my sinuses opened up and my sinus infection was gone. It was well worth the experiment, but, I think, the next time I want to experiment with the sinuses, I do it with someone else's sinuses! On 7/2/05 11:48 AM, in article ViBxe.20881$qm.18783@bignews5.bellsouth.net, > the first post that I came across was from a girl who had tried peroxide in > a cold water evaporator for her constant throat infections, and it had cured > her throat infections. I bought a cold water evaporator and tried it for a > few weeks, but it did nothing for my sinus infection. I then tried a hot > steam machine with peroxide and that did nothing. Even the most elementary high school science class can explain that there is no way that peroxide can reach the body via evaporation or steam. What you got was WATER. > On 7/2/05 11:48 AM, in article ViBxe.20881$qm.18783@bignews5.bellsouth.net, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > no way that peroxide can reach the body via evaporation or steam. What you > got was WATER. As I had written before, what steered me towards using peroxide in my nasal passages was a post from a girl who had tried it in a cold mist evaporator, to cure her throat infection. While that didn't work for me, it started me experimenting with peroxide in my nasal passages. Even if that original post from that girl was totally incorrect, it was responsible for, not only, effecting a cure for my sinus infection disease, but for curing other people's sinus infection diseases around the world. I found that original post from Joanna Payne. Thank you Joanna Payne wherever you are! Here is a copy of it: <===================================> Email: joannap343@aol.com <--email address no longer active. Date: Wednesday February 25, 1998 All my life I have had frequent throat infections. In my twenties, it seemed I had one every month, for which I would take antibiotics. My GP referred me to a specialist, who gave me weekly vaccinations for a year. My infections became much less frequent, but more intense and harder to cure. I had to take larger doses of antibiotics for a longer period of time. In a health newsletter I subscribe to, I learned about hydrogen peroxide and bought Dr. William Campbell Douglass' amazing book, "Hydrogen Peroxide, Medical Miracle." The book is mostly about intravenous H2O2, and if I hadn't been reading carefully, I would have missed the one sentence about using it in a vaporizer for respiratory infections. I tried it. I used the common 3% variety in the brown bottle that you buy at the supermarket. I diluted it 8 to 1 and put it in a cool mist vaporizer. I used a cool mist because some people think the effectiveness of H2O2 is decreased by boiling, but I also use it in a mini-vaporizer I bought at the health food store, which boils it, and that works, too. Anyway, I don't have the concern about fungus and bacteria growing in the cool-mist vaporizer, because the H2O2 takes care of that! It does corrode the nebulizer, though, so I make sure to empty the liquid after I'm finished. Results: I have not been back to the doctor for antibiotics since I started using this method. I estimate I have probably had 20 or more infections and every one of them has gone away with this method. If I catch it later than usual, I also gargle with h202, one part water to one part H2O2. It always works for me. Needless to say, I am ecstatic. Everyone else I have shared my story with who decided to try it for themselves has also had success--some with viruses like colds and respiratory flu. Joanna Payne On 7/2/05 10:32 AM, in article 3io1d1Fmanv9U2@individual.net, "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: > I still get an occasional sinus migraine from sleeping with windows > open, but Astelin with Rhinocort and Afrin is now adequate to prevent > symptoms, along with aggressive allergic desensitization. > > Susan Migraine is a spacticity of the blood vessels . If you are getting this from chilling, many persons are helped by measures to reduce blood vessel spasticity. Try shower - hard - to back of neck four minutes while slowly rotating head from side to side. Often this reduces blood vessel spasticity and less migraine. > Migraine is a spacticity of the blood vessels . I thought there was more than one cause of migraine, such as hormonal, food allergy related migraines? In my case, they're triggered by pressure on the nerves when my sinuses are inflamed. If you are getting this from > chilling, many persons are helped by measures to reduce blood vessel > spasticity. I'm not chilled, I'm allergic to what blows in the window, hence sinus swelling and the migraine attack, vomiting, dark room, the works. I've had migraines since I was a child, and these are just like the ones I had decades before I had sinus problems. >Try shower - hard - to back of neck four minutes while slowly > rotating head from side to side. Often this reduces blood vessel spasticity > and less migraine. I'm too weak to stand during a migraine, unfortunately. I'm usually weak and wiped out for the entire day. Susan On 7/2/05 4:13 PM, in article 3iolctFmigrgU1@individual.net, "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: > I'm too weak to stand during a migraine, unfortunately. I'm usually weak > and wiped out for the entire day. You see how easily any E mail health advice can be misunderstood and taken the wrong way! I meant to do the shower doily when you are well and hale and hearty, not during a headache. > You see how easily any E mail health advice can be misunderstood and taken > the wrong way! > I meant to do the shower doily when you are well and hale and hearty, not > during a headache. Oh, well I have done that for years! Did you see the reports just out that showering may cause neuro damage from inhaling minerals (manganese) in shower mist, though? :-( Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Susan The link: http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/regular-showers-may-cause-brain-damage-us-study /2005/07/03/1120329314733.html?oneclick=true Susan On 7/3/05 1:30 PM, in article 3ir06mFmh7qmU2@individual.net, "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: > Did you see the reports just out that showering may cause neuro damage > from inhaling minerals (manganese) in shower mist, though? :- Not surprised, years ago the clergy was preaching against bathing too. > On 7/3/05 1:30 PM, in article 3ir06mFmh7qmU2@individual.net, "Susan" > <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Not surprised, years ago the clergy was preaching against bathing too. Since I'm already cognitively compromised by neuroborreliosis, I plan to keep showering. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Susan Susan, thanks for the positive feedback. Thanks also for voicing your opinion. The reason you gave, "so that newer readers will see the information", is the main reason why I repost about sinus flooding. I wish I did get more positive feedback and less grouches. But...... the way I figure, if my sinus flooding helps just one more person, then it is well worth continuing the effort. There is so much useless and misleading information on the Internet. One would think that a new option against sinus infection would be warmly received. Thanks again! Enjoy your Fourth of July holiday! > Susan, thanks for the positive feedback. Thanks also for voicing your > opinion. You're welcome on both counts. > The reason you gave, "so that newer readers will see the information", is > the main reason why I repost about sinus flooding. I wish I did get more [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > One would think that a new option against sinus infection would be warmly > received. Some folks think their personal irritation is everyone's problem. > Thanks again! Enjoy your Fourth of July holiday! Thanks, I always do; I'm a Fireworks Fanatic. Susan Can-Do's posts (which he posts all over the web, by the way), do become irritating after a while. Some have had litterally thousands of views, so why hasn't the treatment taken off? After that many posts, CanDO, why not sit back and let your successful followers post their experiences. I mean, haven't you done your part informing the world? Besides, irrigating with hydrogen peroxide is not all that innovative. I have seen it on a number of sites that talk about things you can add to your nasal irrigation solution. You seem very well intentioned, but I think you have done enough. You did your duty and got your message out. Go enjoy your good health. As for me, it didn't work. But gentamicin did. > Can-Do's posts (which he posts all over the web, by the way), do become > irritating after a while. Some have had litterally thousands of views, so [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > As for me, it didn't work. But gentamicin did. None of us can control what others post online. But we each can control what we read, using kill files and delete keys. Susan > Can-Do's posts (which he posts all over the web, by the way), do become > irritating after a while. Some have had litterally thousands of views, so > why hasn't the treatment taken off? After that many posts, CanDO, why not > sit back and let your successful followers post their experiences. I mean, > haven't you done your part informing the world? You would not believe how irritating it can be! I don't have any way to measure how well the "Upside Down Sinus Flooding" has taken off. So far, I've gotten positive feedback from about 20 sinusitis sufferers who were extremely thankful that I took the time, and effort, to enable them to cure their sinus misery. If my efforts have just helped ONE person, then I would consider my efforts worth while. What is your source of statistics? Why I don't just sit back? I do sit back. Once per month, more or less, I post about the sinus flooding with peroxide on selected sites throughout the Internet. I feel that this provides better exposure and reaches more people. Yes I have done my part informing the world. Thanks for asking! Many live in their own selfish little world, and would never bother to put in the many necessary hours to inform others of a way to improve their sinus misery. You would not believe this, but with the millions of garbage posts on the Internet, some small minds actually get upset having to bypass my infrequent, small number of posts. > Besides, irrigating with hydrogen peroxide is not all that innovative. I > have seen it on a number of sites that talk about things you can add to > your nasal irrigation solution. This shows that you have not taken the time to read through the documentation, and that you have no idea about the difference between sinus irrigation and sinus flooding. In other words, you are posting from ignorance and lack of knowledge. It bothers me that some people might try a sinus flooding without reading the documentation, and heeding the warnings. Your post reinforce my fears. > You seem very well intentioned, but I > think you have done enough. You did your duty and got your message out. > Go enjoy your good health. > > As for me, it didn't work. But gentamicin did. Thanks for the feedback. Hey, by the way....... watch for my posts, once per month, on many locations around the Internet. I'm sure that you will spend hours trying to find each and every one of them, just so you can complain about them. >Thanks for the feedback. Hey, by the way....... watch for my posts, once per >month, on many locations around the Internet. I'm sure that you will spend >hours trying to find each and every one of them, just so you can complain >about them. I have not needed to try your methodoccasionally. It almost amounts to self-surgery and could cause problems for a few people, but it is probably not very likely to do so. It does empower individuals to take more control of their own health, and I am in favor of such enablement, even when it carries a small risk. Many people simply are not able to find medical care that deals adequately with their problem, for one reason or another (poor doctors available in their area or plan, insurance issues, poor communications, intractable prroblems etc. etc.) So I, for one, commend you. >Thanks for the feedback. Hey, by the way....... watch for my posts, once per >month, on many locations around the Internet. I'm sure that you will spend >hours trying to find each and every one of them, just so you can complain >about them. I have not needed to try your method, and probably will not do so. But I think it is good for you to post it occasionally. It almost amounts to self-surgery and could cause problems for a few people, but it is probably not very likely to do so. It does empower individuals to take more control of their own health, and I am in favor of such enablement, even when it carries a small risk. Many people simply are not able to find medical care that deals adequately with their problem, for one reason or another (poor doctors available in their area or plan, insurance issues, poor communications, intractable prroblems etc. etc.) So I, for one, commend you. I am going to hand out a million cucumbers to a million people and if just one cucumber improves one persons life for even one second, it's worth it. > >Thanks for the feedback. Hey, by the way....... watch for my posts, once per > >month, on many locations around the Internet. I'm sure that you will spend [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > But I think it is good for you to post it occasionally. I appreciate the comment. There are those, who lack Internet skills, who benefit from more current posts. > It almost amounts to self-surgery and could cause problems for a few people, > but it is probably not very likely to do so. My biggest concern regards getting liquid into one's Eustachian Tubes. > It does empower individuals to take more control of their own health, and I am > in favor of such enablement, even when it carries a small risk. I still haven't gotten used to not having to get three or more antibiotic prescriptions per year for my chronic sinus infections. I still can't believe that my sinus misery is gone. For years, my sinus condition, of misery and frequent sinus infections, was the best that the medical establishment could offer to me. It feels great being enabled! > Many people simply are not able to find medical care that deals adequately with > their problem, for one reason or another (poor doctors available in their area > or plan, insurance issues, poor communications, intractable prroblems etc. > etc.) > > So I, for one, commend you. Thanks! I am especially appreciative of your supportive comments, since you have spent quite a bit of your own time, over a long period of time, sharing your knowledge and providing support on this thread. Regarding our medical care system...... I think that our medical system has been severely damaged over the past few decades. Through HMOs, and Medicare, most of our system is based on NOT providing services. The services that are provided, are provided at the least cost to the providers. So, we are paying high premiums for the lowest cost of services. What pissed me off the most about my numerous visits to ENTs, back when I was in much sinus misery, was the insulting and demeaning attitudes of the ENTs. Their behavior made me feel like I was wasting their valuable time. They were also not very receptive to questions. But they had no problem collecting my money for the visit, or in setting up another appointment. Would you believe that I don't miss my ENT? <g> >What pissed me off the most about my numerous visits to ENTs, back when I >was in much sinus misery, was the insulting and demeaning attitudes of the >ENTs. Their behavior made me feel like I was wasting their valuable time. >They were also not very receptive to questions. But they had no problem >collecting my money for the visit, or in setting up another appointment. Yes it is not their fault as individuals. That is the way the present system works, and it usually works fine but has limitations especially for difficult or chronic cases. They do their best. Specialists have narrow focuses to their practices, and otorhinolaryngology especially tends to be organized around the need to identify where surgery is appropriate and the very diffcult and taxing skills they need to perform it. They use medical approaches too but they seem to often think that that part is best left to other doctors so that they can concentrate on the most difficult cases that need (or will need) surgery. That is the only thing that the insurance companies will pay a non-miniscule fee for. There need to be some non-surgical ENT's who refer surgery out to surgery specialists, but there are not too many at the moment. There are some. The insurance companies do not adequately compensate this approach so there is little incentive to focus on it in a practice. Part of the answer is for medical consumers to be *much* more sophisticated so that they can know what to ask for and be able to exercise some degree of control over its delivery. Trying some approaches such as yours on their own is one way to enable themselves. >Would you believe that I don't miss my ENT? <g> I applaud CanDO's general efforts. We all want suggestions and comments that may help us. My point is that his treatment does not seem to be very effective. He says he got 20 e-mails thanking him, but thousands have read his threads. Moreover, out of the twenty, how many would have benefitted just as much if they had used pulsile irrigation with hydrogen peroxide which is basically the same treatment (his involves using a syringe, and tilting your head so it soaks in, whereas the pulsile irrigator shoots it in). I'd say most if not all. If I remember his treatment, it gets kind of involved and can take a long time, weeks or months. So it's something that can really side track a person and take them away from other useful therapies. Also a lot of people say it hurts and some doctors advise against hydrogen peroxide in the nose. But I think we will all agree on this: Too bad scientists can't find enough money to do actual studies on treatments like this but they can find hundreds of millions to spend on a new miracle pill which is usually a dud. > I applaud CanDO's general efforts. We all want suggestions and comments > that may help us. Thanks for the kind words. > My point is that his treatment does not seem to be very effective. I take my "thanks" back! <g> > He > says he got 20 e-mails thanking him, but thousands have read his threads. Some are emails, some are posts on various forums around the net. > Moreover, out of the twenty, how many would have benefitted just as much if > they had used pulsile irrigation with hydrogen peroxide which is basically > the same treatment (his involves using a syringe, and tilting your head so > it soaks in, whereas the pulsile irrigator shoots it in). I'd say most if > not all. Your conclusion of "most if not all" is highly subjective and not based on fact. > If I remember his treatment, it gets kind of involved and can take a long > time, weeks or months. You don't remember. Your statement indicates that you don't understand the concepts behind infrequent sinus flooding and how it actually works. It's easy to post an opinion about something you know very little about, isn't it? If you are interested in refreshing your memory of my "Upside Down Sinus Flooding" follow the following link to the recently updated documentation: http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-upsidedown > So it's something that can really side track a > person and take them away from other useful therapies. Also a lot of > people say it hurts and some doctors advise against hydrogen peroxide in > the nose. It sidetracks the germs within someone's nose more than it sidetracks the unfortunate sinusitis sufferer. Using the "Upside Down Sinus Flooding" to treat one's sinus infection problem doesn't prevent the afflicted from using other therapies. In fact, I emphasize, in the documentation, that the sinus flooding is just one tool in the war against sinus misery. It's too bad that you are so sidetracked that you haven't had time to research this subject before posting about it. > But I think we will all agree on this: Too bad scientists can't find > enough money to do actual studies on treatments like this but they can > find hundreds of millions to spend on a new miracle pill which is usually > a dud. Thanks again for applauding my efforts at the beginning of your post. > I applaud CanDO's general efforts. We all want suggestions and comments > that may help us. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > it soaks in, whereas the pulsile irrigator shoots it in). I'd say most if > not all. I don't know how many, and neither do you, so speculating and guesstimating is futile. I'd been irrigating for quite a while until I added some hydrogen peroxide to the solution. I no longer have to irrigate. We just don't know how many folks have tried it nor what % have been helped. Susan >> I applaud CanDO's general efforts. We all want suggestions and >> comments that may help us. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >In news:3l1b96F10999qU1@individual.net, >Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> typed: > I don't know how many, and neither do you, so speculating and > guesstimating is futile. Agreed. Common sense. > I'd been irrigating for quite a while until I added some hydrogen > peroxide to the solution. I no longer have to irrigate. And *this* is a scientific conclusion for all of us? Or even for you? How do you know Hydrogen Peroxide *was* the catalyst for your cure? Could it be that this was the 'upteenth' irrigation and just maybe your would have been cured without the Hydrogen Peroxide? Seems, if I recall correctly, the peroxide 'treatment' only stopped some ache in your cheek bone. Your irrigation up to that point had been only to stop that ache, and only that ache problem? Besides, you didn't follow the directions of the upside down irrigation method of CanDo's...you only did *your* method of CanDo's irrigation in a highly modified limited way, one time with a waterpik, if what you stated in your posts is correct. > We just don't know how many folks have tried it nor what % have been > helped. Then CanDo's 'discovery' is also flawed until he produces definitive numbers. I can throw sand over my shoulder and *viola* my shoulder ache is *gone*!! Can I made that a cure? I bet if I started something as crazy as that as a *cure* on the internet, 20 or more people would suddenly respond they had been cured by my method. I'm not saying CanDo is not making an effort to inform people of his method, good or bad, but he has nothing scientific to back up his conclusions except that Hydrogen Peroxide (strength % unkown) has the ability to kill 'some' bacteria. I do say that your defense of his right to say it is very correct. Your defense of his method is very flawed in my opinion. ...Allen > And *this* is a scientific conclusion for all of us? Or even for you? Uh,no, of course not, simply a single data point. How do > you know Hydrogen Peroxide *was* the catalyst for your cure? Could it be > that this was the 'upteenth' irrigation and just maybe your would have been > cured without the Hydrogen Peroxide? Perhaps, but it would be a heck of a coincidence, since I was irrigating about 3 x per day by then without much improvement and stopped needing to irrigate suddenly. I suppose it's also possible that I had some very potent garlic with dinner that day and it killed off the infectious stuff. Anything is *possible.* >Seems, if I recall correctly, the > peroxide 'treatment' only stopped some ache in your cheek bone. You recall incompletely. I had some congestion in my cheekbone from a recent cold, but my years of suffering and infection have been from my right ethmoid sinus. Your > irrigation up to that point had been only to stop that ache, and only that > ache problem? Nope. Besides, you didn't follow the directions of the upside down > irrigation method of CanDo's...you only did *your* method of CanDo's > irrigation in a highly modified limited way, one time with a waterpik, if > what you stated in your posts is correct. Yes, I told CanDo in an earlier post that I didn't find it necessary to do a headstand in the shower to get the benefit of peroxide. However, if he hadn't done his periodic postings, I never would've tried the peroxide at all. > Then CanDo's 'discovery' is also flawed until he produces definitive > numbers. He doesn't have to. This is an *alt.support* group where folks share experiences and try to help one another, it's not sci.med.clinicaltrials I can throw sand over my shoulder and *viola* my shoulder ache is > *gone*!! Can I made that a cure? Hey, do whatever floats your boat. >I bet if I started something as crazy as > that as a *cure* on the internet, 20 or more people would suddenly respond > they had been cured by my method. [...] > I'm not saying CanDo is not making an effort to inform people of his method, > good or bad, but he has nothing scientific to back up his conclusions except > that Hydrogen Peroxide (strength % unkown) has the ability to kill 'some' > bacteria. I do say that your defense of his right to say it is very correct. > Your defense of his method is very flawed in my opinion. He doesn't have to do clinical trials to support and share information on usenet alt.support, and you don't have to use his method. You don't have to believe any of the anecdotes reporting benefits, they're just anecdotes, after all. Susan |
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