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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Sinusitis / April 2005biofilm formation
I posted the following as a reply to another message, but in case it doesn't get read, I'm posting it separately. I saw where Dr. Grossan stated "biofilm" production protects some bacteria from antibiotics and that getting rid of it would let the antibiotics kill the bacteria. However, he did not say how it is gotten rid of. Dr. Grossan, if you read this, could you tell me how this is done, or if anyone else knows, please reply. Thanks. Kathyw > I posted the following as a reply to another message, but in case it > doesn't get read, I'm posting it separately. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Kathyw The idea is that the "biofilm" is washed off of the sinus wall by something like a waterpik or the Hydro Pulse. I doubt it has ever been scientifically _proven_ to work but most here are so desperate for a cure they'll try anything. It is of course possible that it does work. I'm talking about the biofilm or "slime" that some of the bacteria that live in the sinuses produce. They produce it for protection. I've used nasal irrigation for years and it does help a lot, but it doesn't get rid of this clear "slimy" mucus that I keep producing from my current infection; I've been on IV antibitoics for 6 weeks and am doing much better most of the time, but I'll think I have it "licked" and the slime will come back, then I feel awful for a few days. Once I get rid of the slime, I feel better, but I can't completely get rid of it. Does anyone else have it? This is Dr. Grossan's direct quote: "Also recent articles state that simple irrigation will not remove biofilm that "protects" the bacteria. " In Dr. Tichener's website he has the following quote: "Ferguson et. al. showed that there was a biofilm which can develop in patients with chronic sinusitis. A film of glycocalyx may protect bacteria or fungi from contact with antimicrobials. This has been documented with Pseudomonas, S. aureus, and Alternaria as well as other organisms. In addition, the organisms which are contained inside the biofilm may have different sensitivity than those which are cultured, since they are outside the biofilm. Removing the biofilm may require surgery." How would surgery help? Would they just scrape it out? On 4/16/05 3:48 AM, in article 1113648516.126662.268100@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, > I'm talking about the biofilm or "slime" that some of the bacteria that > live in the sinuses produce. They produce it for protection. I've [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > How would surgery help? Would they just scrape it out? Actually, surgery is not done for removal of biofilm. Surgery helps when the sinuses are filled with disease that can't be cleared by other means. Surgery helps when sinuses are blocked so that bacteria can multiply behind the obstruction. The disease in the blocked sinus is not biofilm. These bacteria are protected by the blockage and so they don't need the film. Recent articles by Ramadan - Archives of Otolaryngology March 05 show pictures of the bacteria encased with this film present in sinus disease. In orthopedic research, they showed that pulsatile irrigaton is best for removing slime from screws,etc. It is difficult to show how much pulsatile irrigation works in the living person without biopsy, etc. But it does explain why persons who have failed antibiotics may quickly respond to pulsatile irrigation which may remove the biofilm / bacteria. Originally we thought that pulsatile irrigation was beneficial because it brought back cilia movement. Now we have to consider biofilm. Back to surgery. If the sinus is completely blocked, neither simple or pulsatile irrigation will clear that. We expect to show more about pulsatile irrigation and biofilm as research continues. Thanks for the information. I use the irriagtion several times a day. I've had both coagulase negative staph and Stenotrophomonas culltured from my sinuses, but evidently there is no blockage because CT scans and endoscopic exam are fairly normal except the ENT did say there was a film. I've been diagnosed with osteomyelitis in the ethmoids. I've been on IV Timentin for about 6 weeks and am feeling some better. (Thought I was going to die before the pain was so bad). However, I'll feel better for a few days and then I get copious amounts of clear slime out of my sinuses; most of the other colors have resolved; after the slime comes out I feel awful for a few days.) I don't know what else this could be. Any other suggestions? Thanks!! Kathy On 4/16/05 4:22 PM, in article 1113693733.766167.99060@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, > Thanks for the information. I use the irriagtion several times a day. > I've had both coagulase negative staph and Stenotrophomonas culltured [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Kathy Where are you located? In Boston they are using Hperbaric Oxygen for patients like yourself. > On 4/16/05 4:22 PM, in article > 1113693733.766167.99060@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, > > > Where are you located? In Boston they are using Hperbaric Oxygen for > patients like yourself. I live in East Tennessee, but am going to Atlanta for IV antibitoic treatment. I'll mention this my ID doctor; they seem pretty progressive here, but I'd be willing to go to Boston if that's what it would take to get better. Thanks!! Kathy >>On 4/16/05 4:22 PM, in article >>1113693733.766167.99060@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Kathy There are hyperbaric facilities everywhere. All you need is to find out the protocol, and a local provider. Susan Thanks!! Kathy Kathyw wrote... > I posted the following as a reply to another message, but in > case it doesn't get read, I'm posting it separately. I saw where [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > gotten rid of. Dr. Grossan, if you read this, could you tell me how > this is done, or if anyone else knows, please reply. Recently I have heard about biofilms -- but I was wondering if anyone knew if the probiota (if that is a word) in the gut normally forms a biofilm in the intestines? My idea is that some of the bad effects of taking broad-spectrum antibiotics for long periods my be related to damaging the probiatic biofilm in the intestines, leaving one more prone to infections or bowel irritations or causing immune system effects. Anyone? Regards, David > Kathyw wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Regards, > David I hold the opinion that "broad-spectrum antibiotics for long periods" can do just what you say. Fungus overgrowth can result. The fungus can penetrate your intestines. "Leaky gut syndrome". Your body creates antibody's to fight the invading fungus. The antibody's travel througout your body. Normally occurring fungus in the sinuses are attacked that otherwise would have been left alone. (Mayo Clinic) Cell damage takes place. Nasal polyps form. More blockages result. You don't know what to do. Doctors cannot cure your chronic sinusitis. You take more antibiotics... That's kind of like "Which came first, the fungus or the bacteria?" It's a viscous cycle. I agree: What is one to do? Can't live without the antibiotics, but can't live with them either. I have read somewhere the the normal flora grow back in the large intestine within a couple of weeks after stoppiing the antibiotics. Of course eating yogurt or taking probiotic capsules can help, but I'm sure it does damage. Kathy I On 4/16/05 6:27 AM, in article 1113658079.772602.279880@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, > That's kind of like "Which came first, the fungus or the bacteria?" > It's a viscous cycle. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I It is simply good medicine to take yogurt or any normal bacteria product in order to replace the good bacteria that are also killed by the antibiotic. Today we know we really do need the good bacteria. > On 4/16/05 6:27 AM, in article > 1113658079.772602.279880@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I have read somewhere the the normal flora grow back in the large > > intestine within a couple of weeks after stoppiing the antibiotics. Of > > course eating yogurt or taking probiotic capsules can help, but I'm > > sure it does damage. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > order to replace the good bacteria that are also killed by the antibiotic. > Today we know we really do need the good bacteria. I meant to say that the antibiotics still do damage, not the yogurt or probiotics. Sorry. |
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