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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostatitis / October 2004For What it's Worth
Hi. I'm a cured (for the moment) CP patient, and since I've been cured, I haven't posted or checked this board in a very long time. I thought I would post my thoughts and reflections over the course of my recovery so that anyone that can mildly relate to my experience might get some ideas. All together I suffered with prostatitis for 3-4 years. First off, I'm a 29 year old male. No history of CP. I developed it in college during a night of drinking and amphetamine usage. I believe I had renal failure to some degree that night, and I remember having the sensation that I needed to urinate, but upon intense straining, was unable to initiate a stream. I don't remember having any CP like symptoms before this night which it seems catalyzed a CP condition (for whatever reason). I had an intense sense of urgency and aching pain in my prostate. I sought out medical advice at this point. The physicians did not think it was caused by the drug, and said that it may have just been waiting to happen and for whatever reason, that night incipiated the condition. Needless to say, I had no prostate enlargement, but many of the classic symptoms: pain (dull ache) in my prostate, weak stream, dribbling, sense of urgency. I had a cystoscopy performed (camera up your urethra) and that came out normal also. I tried countless rounds of antibiotics, with the most popular one being cipro. These were mildly effective, but I think the effectiveness was due more to the anti-inflammatory effects of antibiotics in general. Ok, so while this was going on, I would basically wedge an electric heating pad up my crotch/butt and let the heat relax the muscles to the point to where I could fall asleep. The sense of urgency and aching pain was too great most of the time to simply fall asleep without doing this. This next question is a hot topic: How much sex/masturbation? For me, I definitely know that too much of either would flare my prostate, but if I went a few days without ejaculation, my symptoms would get worse. They would immediately get some relief by ejaculation and I can only attribute that to the natural decongestion that occurs during the whole process. So, I tried to find a happy medium. I would have sex or masturbate every 2 days or so. I would also not ejaculate more than once in one day. I think this definitely was a start in the right direction. I did the Broccoli broth treatment and to be honest this actually seemed to work at first. As did taking Quercetin/Bromelain tablets. My observations with these two treatments were that they were only effective when used in short intervals. If I did either for very long, the effectiveness would dissipate. (For those of you beginning to take quercetin pills, yes it is normal for your ejaculate to be slightly yellow, this is NOT an infection). Anyway, I pretty much gave up drinking alcohol and coffee (other than occassional exceptions) due to the fact that alcohol or caffeine usually flared my prostatitis. I gave up carbonated drinks and began drinking large amounts of water on a daily basis. What I noticed, was that as I drank large quantities of water, my urine was more dilute and PH less acidic. I think that having concentrated or acidic urine seemed to exacerbate my condition, because it would just antagonize the inflammation that was already present. As I drank more and more water, I would have a greater percentage of "good days" during a given month and my urination was more comfortable. (With concentrated urine, I would have a burning sensation sometimes) As a side note: I started long term minocycline antibiotics for an unrelated condition and have been on these ever since. However, I don't think the antibiotics have had anything to do with my improvement. I also drink 10-16 oz of water every night before bed. Yes, this means that I have to get up and pee once a night, but my purpose in drinking the water is to avoid concentrated and acidic urine in the very mornings when you are dehydrated from a night of sleep. 1 pee a night is much better than the 4-5 pees a night that I used to have. So, at this point, I attribute most of my improvement to my regulation in ejaculations, copious intake of water on a daily basis(and before bed), removal of caffeine and alcohol from my diet, and adoption of a more healthy diet, (and many sleepless nights of praying ;-). Honestly, I can't think of any other reason as to why I improved. I'm at the point now, and have been for the past year and a half, to where I have maybe 10% of my original symptoms. Probably less than that. I can still feel that I have a "sensitive" prostate, and if I ejaculate too frequently, I will get a few "warning" signs (3-4 times a week seems to be fine for me at this point), but for the most part I've had a pretty full remission of the majority of my symptoms. I have adherred to the strict changes in diet, drink plenty of water, and I drink those 10-16 oz before bed as a daily ritual. I realize that some people have different types of prostatitis, and different symptoms, but hopefully this post will give some people hope who can mildly relate to my experience. Yes, I could suffer a relapse at any moment, but I'm praying that this won't happen, and after a year and a half of having a drastic reduction in symptoms, I'm gaining more and more confidence into my approach in treating my particular case. Yes, I'm fully aware that CP can be cyclical, but again I'm praying that this isn't the case with me. Anyway, I'm not sure how much any of you got out of this post, but if you have further questions, feel free to email me at brobert3@midsouth.rr.com Hang in there and best of luck with your treatments. -Brown > Hi. I'm a cured (for the moment) CP patient, and since I've been cured, I > haven't posted or checked this board in a very long time. I thought I would [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > > Hang in there and best of luck with your treatments. -Brown Awesome post, Did you ever do any urine cultures or semen or EPS cultures? If so what were the findings. Thanks for sharing your story, Mak Thanks. As to the cultures: I only had a urine culture. This was negative, and there were no white blood cells in my urine. My urologist opted not to do any more cultures because he doubted whether it was bacterial, especially after I had been on so many antibiotic cycles with little improvement. >> Hi. I'm a cured (for the moment) CP patient, and since I've been cured, I >> haven't posted or checked this board in a very long time. I thought I [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] > > Mak >As a side note: I started long >term minocycline antibiotics for an unrelated condition and have been on >these ever since Whoa! >However, I don't think the antibiotics have had anything >to do with my improvement Did the improvement occur after you started minocycline? - Carlos I'm pretty sure the improvement was before my minocycline regimen (which I don't believe is absorbed very well by the prostate, but I could be wrong). However, in all fairness, I can't specifically remember. Nevertheless, I have been on minocycline for a good portion of the time that I've been recovering. Again though, I don't believe this was the catalyst, considering that I can remember being on more "prostate friendly" biotics such as cipro for months at a time with little to no improvement. > >As a side note: I started long >>term minocycline antibiotics for an unrelated condition and have been on [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > - Carlos >I can remember being on more "prostate friendly" biotics such as cipro >for months at a time with little to no improvement. I'm not saying that minocycline necessarily explains your improvement, which (as you say) started pre-minocycline. But in mentioning Cipro you repeat an error made by many doctors. It's a great and powerful (and dangerous) modern antibotic, true, but it has NO power against the anaerobic bacteria that seem to cause some epididymitis and prostate problems. And Cipro may be worse than useless against Chlamydia, another possible major cause of prostate and epididymal problems. Doxycycline, and older antibiotic, and a mere "bacteriostatic" (it stops replication, but in ordinary doses doesn't kill) is slower, safter, and while it doesn't kill a lot of what Cipro does, it also kills things that Cipro does not. Presumably the same is true of minocycline, which is in the same class as doxcycline. See below - Carlos northernspy1@aol.com =================== http://www.prostatitis.org/ciprochlamydia.html "Persistence of Chlamydia trachomatis Is Induced by Ciprofloxacin and Ofloxacin In Vitro" "resumption of overt chlamydial growth occurred after withdrawal of ciprofloxacin, confirming the viability of persisting chlamydia. In vitro ciprofloxacin results are consistent with clinical data, thereby providing an explanation for treatment failures of ciprofloxacin." ===================== Dr. Mirkin sometimes recommends Doxycline for MONTHS http://www.drmirkin.com/men/M156.html I often prescribe a quinolone antibiotic called Tequin for several months, or a combination of Tequin and doxycycline. See also Mycoplasma, chlamydia and ureaplasma http://home.swipnet.se/isop/artiklar.htm Gabe Mirkin, M.D. WHAT THEY ARE: Mycoplasma, chlamydia and ureaplasma are the smallest of free-living organisms. They are unlike all other bacteria because they have no cell walls and therefore must live inside cells. They are unlike viruses because they can live in cultures outside of cells and can be killed by certain antibiotics. However, they cannot be killed by most antibiotics, as most antibiotics work by damaging a bacteria's cell wall. They can be killed by antibiotics such as the tetracyclines or erythromycins that do not act on a cell wall. ================== COMPARES dif classes of quinolones -- and shows Cipro has no anti-anaerobe activity http://www.emedmag.com/html/pre/fea/features/011501.asp NorthernSpy alerted me to the fact that there is a theory that long term safe antibiotics such as doxycycline might be effective at treating this disease. To be completely fair and honest, I can't 100% remember which began first, the improvements in my condition, or my minocycline regimen. Therefore, that would need to be considered as a possible cause for my improvement. My dosage was 200 mg daily for a year, tapering down to 100 mg daily. My initial lack of confidence in the antibiotics being a cause for my improvements stems from my lack of success with cipro and some of the other antibiotics. However, it is a plausible theory that somehow the long term minocycline had a beneficial effect on my recovery. > >As a side note: I started long >>term minocycline antibiotics for an unrelated condition and have been on [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > - Carlos > NorthernSpy alerted me to the fact that there is a theory that long term > safe antibiotics such as doxycycline might be effective at treating this > disease. I have to tell you that my experience with doxy is the opposite. The first time I took it, marvellous change but it came back. Each time after that, an improvement but less and less. Finally, by the fifth time I was on a course of it, the changes were little. Seeing that some nasty things and the body seem to resist antibiotics, I decided I was better OFF them entirely for times I do need them. >I have to tell you that my experience with doxy is the opposite. The first >time I took it, marvellous change but it came back. Each time after that, an >improvement but less and less. Finally, by the fifth time I was on a course >of it, the changes were little. Seeing that some nasty things and the body >seem to resist antibiotics, So what did you do? The fact you were responding to doxy so dramatically implies it was an infection. Some docs would have suggested you take doxy until long after your symptoms vanished entirely, or would have suggested combining Doxy with other antibiotics. See for example http://www.drmirkin.com/men/M156.html > I decided I was better OFF them entirely for times I do need them. I believe the Mirkin answer to that (and I don't know if he's right) is you can take Doxy for many many months, and it doesn't affect the way newer antibiotics (such as Cipro) will help you if you ever need a strong antibiotic. In other words, he says you can take doxy for ages, and still be able to get whatever antibiotic you need (at least other than Doxy, an older bacteriostatic drug doctors aren't likely to prescribe anyway). - Charles > >I have to tell you that my experience with doxy is the opposite. The > >first [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > So what did you do? I went off antibiotics totally and took up Proseren (high dose of Saw Palmetto in them) which made a real big difference. > The fact you were responding to doxy so dramatically implies it was an > infection. Doesnt explain why, on each time after the first, taking the full course, the effects were lessened to the point where I noticed nothing much change by the fifth. > Some docs would have suggested you take doxy until long after your > symptoms vanished entirely, or would have suggested combining Doxy with > other > antibiotics. Any docs actually saying that and MEANING it have no idea about prostate problems. While there may be a small percentage of people who DO have the problem disappear, it HAS to be, so far as I am aware, over 95% of people who never get rid of the problem short of having the prostate removed. I took a month of Doxy 5 separate times and each time Doxy did less as said above. > See for example > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > (such as Cipro) will help you if you ever need a strong antibiotic. In > other Other reports over the years suggest that bacteria and human bodies build up resistance so that when you get an infection that needs antibiotics, taking them does nothing. I would rather my body doesnt have any resistance in case I need to take them for some other reason. > words, he says you can take doxy for ages, and still be able to get > whatever [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > - Charles My point, however, is that taking Doxy has less effect whenever taken, though, on the prostate. As it did this for me (and I am not saying it is a general thing though from others saying the same it seems likely it is), it seems useless to be spending money on Doxy when the effects it gives disappear to nothing much after 5 courses of them. "Gutbuster" <dont-stare@me.private.parts> wrote in message news:> > Any docs actually saying that and MEANING it have no idea about prostate > problems. While there may be a small percentage of people who DO have the > problem disappear, it HAS to be, so far as I am aware, over 95% of people > who never get rid of the problem short of having the prostate removed. That is nonsense. The symptom resolution rate from published studies for even the most challenging refractory patients at 1 year is 37% for monotherapy (Nickel et al, 2004) to 80% for multimodal therapy (Shoskes et al, 2003). No patient in either study had their prostates removed and there is no evidence that having your prostate removed helps the symptoms of CPPS at all. > "Gutbuster" <dont-stare@me.private.parts> wrote in message news:> >> Any docs actually saying that and MEANING it have no idea about prostate [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That is nonsense. Sure. Let me believe YOU seeing you start with that. > The symptom resolution rate from published studies > for even the most challenging refractory patients at 1 year is 37% for > monotherapy (Nickel et al, 2004) to 80% for multimodal therapy > (Shoskes et al, 2003). No patient in either study had their prostates > removed and there is no evidence that having your prostate removed > helps the symptoms of CPPS at all. Then let us refer to people posting in here with prostate problems who have, like me, constantly used Doxy etc and found, like me, that it kept doing less all the time. Perhaps that large percentage ought to have been included in that "study" or would that have made the results NOT show what was wanted? > Then let us refer to people posting in here with prostate problems who have, > like me, constantly used Doxy etc and found, like me, that it kept doing > less all the time. Perhaps that large percentage ought to have been included > in that "study" or would that have made the results NOT show what was > wanted? Huh?? Because YOU are not better taking long term antibiotics for a condition that is proven to NOT respond to long term antibiotics, therefore published response rates using appropriate therapy are not valid? Maybe, just maybe, this newsgroup is populated by people who are on inadequate therapy and don't get better? Maybe those that do get treated and get better don't search out usenet groups? Maybe you should explore some therapies beyond the discredited chronic antibiotic approach? >> Then let us refer to people posting in here with prostate problems who >> have, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > therefore published response rates using appropriate therapy are not > valid? Do you even TRY to make sense? >> The fact you were responding to doxy so dramatically implies it was an >> infection. > >Doesnt explain why, on each time after the first, taking the full course, >the effects were lessened to the point where I noticed nothing much change >by the fifth. One interpretation is you didn't take it long enough -- or needed Tequin or something to supplement it -- to completely kill the infection. Taking any antibiotic too briefly many only strain out the bugs that are most resistant, until in the end only the resistant ones are left. I know, I know -- possibly bacteria had nothing to do with it. I merely suggest what I think is the infection theory explanation for your experience. >Any docs actually saying that and MEANING it have no idea about prostate >problems. While there may be a small percentage of people who DO have the >problem disappear, it HAS to be, so far as I am aware, over 95% of people >who never get rid of the problem short of having the prostate removed That percentage cannot be right. I had a prostate infection in 1978, took antibiotics, and was cured... for 26 years. Completely and wholly cured. >Other reports over the years suggest that bacteria and human bodies build up >resistance so that when you get an infection that needs antibiotics, taking >them does nothing. Yes, of course, but you are over generalizing. Taking doxy doesn't build up resistance to other antibiotics, or at least doesn't build up resistance to antibiotics not in the tetracycline class. For serious infections (for example, bacterial pneumonia) you're not going to get an old, bacteriostatic antibiotic like doxy anyway. >My point, however, is that taking Doxy has less effect whenever taken, >though, on the prostate. As it did this for me (and I am not saying it is a >general thing though from others saying the same it seems likely it is), it >seems useless to be spending money on Doxy when the effects it gives >disappear to nothing much after 5 courses of them. I can't find the link, but I've seen a guy claim to be CURED, and he says his problem was he never took antibiotics long enough -- in his case, Levaquin for 2 months. He's still "crossing his fingers" but his cure has continued for 3 years so far. Levaquin is a dangerous drug -- and taking it for months may (often ) cause serious side effects. But most of us would take that risk for a cure. I don't know if he ever cultured positive for any bacteria, which certainly would make his prolonged course make more sense. Note you've not really been cultured for bacteria until you have a Semen culture (5 day or more, PCR) and EPS culture. - Charles >>> The fact you were responding to doxy so dramatically implies it was an >>> infection. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > One interpretation is you didn't take it long enough -- or needed Tequin > or That makes absolutely no sense. I took the full prescribed course 5 times. I think that after that length of time, it should be making MORE of a change if it were working all the time. I had no pain after the first course but it came back. I had a major reduction in pain the second time and less and less each time until there was little change by the time I finished the fifth. If it were working, the pain should have gone each time like it did the first time. > something to supplement it -- to completely kill the infection. Taking > any > antibiotic too briefly many only strain out the bugs that are most > resistant, > until in the end only the resistant ones are left. I still cannot understand how you think taking the full course 5 times is too short! Given what Doxy does to you if you go out in the sun, I think I am pretty damned good taking it FIVE TIMES (full course each time) given that the sun here is more direct than northern hemisphere countries. It is Spring, here right now. If I go out in the full sun and stand there or walk around (makes no difference) but dont go in the shade, I feel the sting of burn after a few minutes. That is with NOT taking Doxy. It occurs to me you may think I mean, regardless of me saying "full course" so many times, that I took only 5 tablets. No! I took the FULL COURSE 5 times. > I know, I know -- possibly bacteria had nothing to do with it. I merely > suggest what I think is the infection theory explanation for your > experience. As I said, it makes no sense to say that. Any antibiotic that is working should make a difference as taken over time. After 5 times of taking the full course, it should mean that you have done a major dent to the infection if not cured it. In my case, like many others here, it meant that the positive effect was less each time. Eg, take the first time, get a GOOD response from that and pain goes. It comes back. Take the second time and it mostly goes then all comes back and so on until the fifth where the pain is there, I take the full course and it makes almost no difference. Pain is there. The way Doxy makes you feel sick when taking it, too, it skews the sick feeling that is caused by prostatitis. I couldnt tell if the sick feeling was because of one or the other or both. >>Any docs actually saying that and MEANING it have no idea about prostate >>problems. While there may be a small percentage of people who DO have the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 26 > years. Completely and wholly cured. Like I said "a small percentage" do get a positive effect like you. However, the prostate is a filter which is why your antibiotics dont work well, if at all, on most men. >>Other reports over the years suggest that bacteria and human bodies build >>up [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yes, of course, but you are over generalizing. No, I am not. If you keep taking them for the prostatitis and then you need it for some other problem you develope, you CAN reach the point where your body actually doesnt respond to antibiotics for a simple infection. > Taking doxy doesn't build up resistance to other antibiotics, or at least > doesn't build up resistance to antibiotics not in the tetracycline class. Sorry but it does. That has been one of the major things about it and other antibiotics. Even my doc warned me of that consequence. > For serious infections (for example, bacterial pneumonia) you're not going > to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I can't find the link, but I've seen a guy claim to be CURED, and he says > his I've seen people claim they were cured who suffer sleep apnea, MS and other problems that cant be cured, too. There are plenty of bullshit artists who post in here claiming that Manilla protocol and other quackeries are cures when there is no doubt they are just posting to make money and nothing else. I would say to take what they say with more care than taking Doxy! > problem was he never took antibiotics long enough -- in his case, Levaquin > for > 2 months. He's still "crossing his fingers" but his cure has continued > for 3 > years so far. 2 MONTHS? Most people here, myself included as I keep saying, took them a LOT longer than that. 5 courses here! More than TWICE as long as 2 months! > Levaquin is a dangerous drug -- and taking it for months may (often ) > cause > serious side effects. But most of us would take that risk for a cure. Never got to take that. >I had no pain after the first course but it >came back. I had a major reduction in pain the second time and less and less >each time until there was little change by the time I finished the fifth. If >it were working, the pain should have gone each time like it did the first >time. Listen to you... you had NO pain after the first course. There's reason to be skeptical about antibiotics, but there also is no question that bacterial prostatitis is real, and antibiotics can 100% cure it. I had prostatitis in 1978, antibiotics cured it, and I had no symptoms for the next 26 years. The fact you got 100% better even temporarily suggests to me you had a problem that antibiotics can cure. But here's the deal: whatever someone told was the "full" course, you are supposed to take them for a significant time until AFTER the symptoms are gone. What you probably did, is kill all the bugs except the few that were most resistant to Doxy. Then those grew, and next time you took Doxy too briefly -- the symptoms did NOT entirely disappear. Then those bugs -- even more resistant -- recolonized. So congratulations -- but taking Doxy too brief a time, and repeatedly, you have helped to culture the most resistant strain possible. Here's what you need to do: eliminate the mystery, and get tested. NOT a piss test, but: [1] a minimum 5 day semen test using PCR and after not masterbating for at least 4 days; and [2] an EPS test (expressed prostatic secretion) test. The tests are expensive, but they will go along way to this silly argument we have having. If you really have an infection, as your experience strongly suggests, you can get tested for it, and once it's identified the RIGHT antibiotic or combination of antibiotics should 100% cure it. Doxy is probably ruined for you, but that leaves Zithromax (very nice -- few side effects), and Levaquin (not so nice, but it kills tons of stuff) and clindamyacin and Biaxin and dozens of others. I don't advocate any of them, but the right ones (revealed by the tests I mentioned) stand an excellent chance of curing you 100% The alternative is to eat moonbeams or quercetin or saw palmetto or get pelvic muscle relaxants -- which might be THE answer for some people, but not for you. At worst, they will minimize your pain, allowing you to continue to ignore an infection that might be eating up tubes and causing nerve and other serious damage. What if you have chlamydia, for example? Something Doxy often helps. It can have horrific long term consequences, including Reiters' syndrome and sterility. Here's how to end this debate: [1] get tested (5 day semen test w/PCR and EPS test) (and possibly a transrectal sonogram, since abcess and other things might indicate reasons antibiotics are not working 100%) [2] if you have a bug or evidence of a bug, get the right antibiotics that are specific to that bug >> Taking doxy doesn't build up resistance to other antibiotics, or at least >> doesn't build up resistance to antibiotics not in the tetracycline class. > >Sorry but it does. That has been one of the major things about it and other >antibiotics. Even my doc warned me of that consequence. Your doctor should be in chains, along with most of his comrades. Resisistance to Doxy doesn't affect your susceptibility to Levaquin or 100 other antobitics. At most it ruins the tetracycline class for you. >> Levaquin is a dangerous drug -- and taking it for months may (often ) >> cause >> serious side effects. But most of us would take that risk for a cure. > >Never got to take that. Levaquin is great for some things, and useless for others. Cipro (similar to Levaquin) one study says actually makes chlamydia "persistent"; whereas Zithromax can kill it. If you haven't had 5 day PCR semen cultures and EPS cultures, you have no idea what you have, and your doctor should be shot for not sending you for the tests. Don't believe me -- look at the guidelines of the Centers for Disease control and the National Instititute of Health (see below). You don't get more mainstream than that. They all say if mindlessly aka "empirically" (without proof of infection) taking an antibiotic doesn't work; stop; test, and then take the RIGHT antibiotic. Jeeze I am jealous. I never found the antibiotic that made me 100% better. You're lucky, though you don't realize it. Doxycycline, because it is bacteriostatic (stops replication, doesn't kill) is a comparatively safe antibiotic you probably should have take for a year, and you'd be a lot healthier today. If you're really lucky you may have something Zithromax can kill -- often taken for just a few days. But the longer you are infected, the less your chances of killing it entirely, and the more likey it will cause irreversible damage even if you can kill it. - Carlos ================================ LOOK AT THE GUIDELINES CDC Guidlines for Epididymitis http://www.epididymitisfoundation.org/cdcguidelines.php Empiric therapy is indicated before culture results are available. Treatment of epididymitis caused by C. trachomatis or N. gonorrhoeae will result in a) microbiologic cure of infection, b) improvement of signs and symptoms, c) prevention of transmission to others, and d) a decrease in potential complications (e.g., infertility or chronic pain). As an adjunct to therapy, bed rest, scrotal elevation, and analgesics are recommended until fever and local inflammation have subsided. Failure to improve within 3 days of the initiation of [antibiotic] treatment requires reevaluation of both the diagnosis and therapy. Swelling and tenderness that persist after completion of antimicrobial therapy should be evaluated comprehensively. The differential diagnosis includes tumor, abscess, infarction, testicular cancer, tuberculosis, and fungal epididymitis. ================= http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514265068/html/x552.html Evaluation of prostatitis patients Transrectal ultrasound examination, biopsy of the prostate gland The finding of prostatic stones is often taken as a basis for a diagnosis of prostatitis, but such calcifications are very common and are also present in men without symptoms of prostatitis (Wasserman 1999, Zackrisson et al. 2000). The usefulness of transrectal ultrasound (TRUS) lies in determining the volume of prostate gland, changes in the volume being related to inflammation, and in finding possible ejaculatory duct cysts and ruling out possible hypoechoic lesions in the periphery of the gland that might lead to a suspicion of prostate cancer and also in diagnosing prostatic granulomas (Terris et al. 1997, Ulleryd et al. 1999, Wasserman 1999). Semen functional analysis The prostate gland secretes various substances, including prostate-specific antigen (PSA), prostatic acid phosphatase (PAP), citric acid, cholesterol, zinc, etc., and some investigators have suggested that measurement of these in whole semen or in EPS may provide a useful marker for diagnosing prostatic inflammation (Fair & Cordonnnier 1978, Fair & Parrish 1981, Zaichick et al. 1996). Significant alterations in the secretory products of the prostate gland occur in patients with prostatitis ============= http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic2845.htm A prostatic abscess should be suspected when worsening clinical symptoms follow an initial favorable response to treatment of ABP or a fluctuant mass is developing in the prostate gland. The presence of the abscess is confirmed by transrectal ultrasound. Once an abscess is diagnosed, anaerobic antimicrobial therapy should be added to the treatment regimen. Clindamycin intravenously at 600-900 mg q8h or orally at 150-450 mg q8h is a good choice. However, medical management often is not successful. Transrectal or perineal aspiration of the abscess is preferred and often is effective, especially if symptoms do not improve after 1 week of medical therapy. Transurethral resection of the prostate and drainage of the cavity is another approach. Recurrent abscesses are rare. The abscess should be allowed to drain and should be monitored closely if a spontaneous rupture occurs into the urethra. Other potential sequelae of ABP are progression to chronic prostatitis, septicemia, pyelonephritis, and epididymitis. > >I had no pain after the first course but it >>came back. I had a major reduction in pain the second time and less and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > skeptical about antibiotics, but there also is no question that bacterial > prostatitis is real, and antibiotics can 100% cure it. RUBBISH! I actually HAVE bacterial CP and it is NOT CURED - CANNOT BE CURED - by antibiotics for me and in most men. The prostate is an effective filter and that is WHY. If you cant understand that then you cant understand the problem! > Listen to you... you had NO pain after the first course. There's reason >> to be [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >filter and that is WHY. If you cant understand that then you cant understand >the problem! so kidding so what kind of bacteria did they find, and how did they find it? unless you have a 5 day PCR semen culture and EPS culture, you may not know the complete story. and here's one definite thing; doxy nearly cured you -- you said yourself the symptoms were gone. Maybe you just didn't take it long enough -- which might require months. an if doxy is the only antibiotic you tried, you haven't come close to investigating whether antibiotics can help you. I don't deny that men sometimes get into a trap of endlessly and fruitlessly taking antibiotics when they don't have an infection; but if you know you have an infection ignoring it is awful dumb. - Carlos > > Listen to you... you had NO pain after the first course. There's reason > >> to be [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > - Carlos He has a resistant bacteria which is why he needs to take antibiotics for years. It was shown that once the bacteria become resistant then taking the same antibiotic for years reverses the resistance. That's why people are not cured. > He has a resistant bacteria How do you know? > > He has a resistant bacteria > > How do you know? Because the antibiotics can't cure him therefore he must have super germs. They are also very smart as people can't culture them. >>> He has a resistant bacteria >> >> How do you know? >> > Because the antibiotics can't cure him therefore he must have super > germs. They are also very smart as people can't culture them. Idiot. > unless you have a 5 day PCR semen culture and EPS culture, you may not know the > complete story. There is no such thing as a "5 day PCR semen culture". Either you have it cultured on agar plates or in broth for 5 days, or you have a PCR test (which incidentally is of unproven value in the clinical care of CPPS patients). The PCR test is a "yes/no" test for the presence of ribosomal bacterial DNA, there is no 5 day growth period. > and here's one definite thing; doxy nearly cured you -- you said > yourself the symptoms were gone. Maybe you just didn't take it long > enough -- which might require months. 1) Improvement of symptoms while taking abx is not an indication of infection. Positive cultures are an indication of infection. 2) Long -term abx treatment is only indicated in cases of (relatively rare) chronic bacterial prostatitis (which is not a mysterious or difficult to diagnose disease). >> Listen to you... you had NO pain after the first course. There's reason >>> to be [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > so kidding Huh? > so what kind of bacteria did they find, and how did they find it? I dont know. They told me chronic bacterial prostatitis. I didnt see the need to know more when diagnosed and havent since, about what sort of bacteria it may be. > unless you have a 5 day PCR semen culture and EPS culture, you may not > know the > complete story. OK that may well be true but I have never gone that far. In fact it was never even mentioned that anything past antibiotics would help when diagnosed. They actually didnt even mention Saw Palmetto. I found out about that in here. > and here's one definite thing; doxy nearly cured you -- you said yourself > the No, it actually didnt NEARLY cure me so far as I am concerned but that may just be the way I look at it. You see, I was aware that I was a hell of a lot better but I also knew that though the pain went for a bit, it wasnt completely gone. I could feel the strange little pulling sensation on the left still there and also remained sick in the stomach after I finished taking the first course. > symptoms were gone. Maybe you just didn't take it long enough -- which > might > require months. Doesnt work that way. If that were true as you said then when I started taking the course the second or third, fourth or fifth time, I would have had exactly the same response as the first time. Eg, by the end of the course I would have been JUST as good each time. As it doesnt work that way, I obviously didnt get that same result. > an if doxy is the only antibiotic you tried, you haven't come close to > investigating whether antibiotics can help you. Doxy is the strongest you can get over here for it. I understand that in America that may be different. They advise me to keep out of the sunlight from 9AM to 3PM here while taking Doxy and that if I dont listen to that I am at great risk of other problems. Unfortunately, it isnt an option for me. Oh sorry there ARE stronger antibiotics if you stay in hospital and have a needle in your left arm that extends from the entry point at the elbow joint and goes up to the shoulder. I actually HAVE had that before but that was because the arsehole hospital where I had a knee reconstruction done almost gave me osteomyelitis when they didnt change my dressing for 2 days. When they let me out with a 104F temperature, they had me back in days later with a knee like a watermelon. > I don't deny that men sometimes get into a trap of endlessly and > fruitlessly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > - Carlos Ignoring it isn't exactly what I am doing. Taking antibiotics endlessly when they do nothing is actually MORE dumb. I have just started Doxy again last night for the first time in over 3 years because the pain and sickness in the gut have become too damned much for now and I am hoping that after that much break (eg, 5 x 1 month courses did less each time years ago) I may get a better reaction approaching the first time I took them. It is pretty damned obvious that if your prostatitis is bacterial and you get less benefit each time you take the drug, your body - or whatever is happening - is not reacting the way it should. If I am building up a resistance to Doxy by continually taking them, that could affect me in any antibiotic. So, if I get into a situation where I need them for some other reason, later and my body is basically flushing them without doing anything, I could be really in the sh.t. Therefore it is REALLY dumb to keep taking them in that situation. While my CP is bloody annoying, makes me sick and has me in pain, if I get a greenstick fracture of my leg and the bone protrudes from the skin, there are worse things I could get to make my life worse that antibiotics could treat if my body reacts as it should to them. In the end, it is a case of "What is worse? Some possible future problem or CP as it is right now?" and thus I chose Saw Palmetto which DID have and STILL has a decent effect on me for reasons I don't understand. > > >I had no pain after the first course but it > >>came back. I had a major reduction in pain the second time and less and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > filter and that is WHY. If you cant understand that then you cant understand > the problem! Is an effective filter of what? What bacteria did you have cultured or are they the invisible kind? It is a proven fact that the invisible kind are the worst and most resistant to any antibiotics. That has been proven by studies over and over. > RUBBISH! I actually HAVE bacterial CP and it is NOT CURED - CANNOT BE > CURED - by antibiotics for me and in most men. The prostate is an > effective filter and that is WHY. If you cant understand that then > you cant understand the problem! You are quite wrong. Study after study has shown that various antibiotics reach MIC in the prostate and concentrations go even higher with the quinolone group. Your doctor saw pus cells in your EPS, which is only an indication of inflammation, NOT infection. > Listen to you... you had NO pain after the first course. There's > reason to be skeptical about antibiotics, but there also is no [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > are supposed to take them for a significant time until AFTER the > symptoms are gone. This is the oldest and most tired topic on this newsgroup. Recent research completely discounts the role of viable pathogens in this disorder. Please do some research, or go for help understanding this topic here: http://www.chronicpelvicpain.us > The way Doxy makes you feel sick when taking it, too, it skews the Doxy is a potent anti-inflammatory; in fact that's it's main effect in treating acne. http://www.chronicprostatitis.com/abx.html > One interpretation is you didn't take it long enough -- or needed > Tequin or something to supplement it -- to completely kill the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > merely suggest what I think is the infection theory explanation for > your experience. This debate over bacteria has been settled long ago. You are re-hashing stuff that's dead. See http://www.chronicprostatitis.com > I had a prostate infection in 1978, took antibiotics, and was > cured... for 26 years. Completely and wholly cured. Don't confuse acute prostatitis with chronic pelvic pain. It's like confusing impetigo with dermatitis - just because you once had impetigo does not mean your dermatitis is the same thing. |
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