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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostatitis / September 2004Hey Webmaster
Why no mention of the following doctors (who are considered world experts in prostatitis) on your website... Pavels Ivdra in Latvia Guercini in Rome Ronald Wheeler (Colorado & Florida) Sanos Clinic (Moscow) Dr. Song in China > Why no mention of the following doctors (who are considered world experts in > prostatitis) on your website... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Sanos Clinic (Moscow) > Dr. Song in China I forgot Dr. Bairaktar in Ukraine. > > Why no mention of the following doctors There is enough info on them on this group already: http://tinyurl.com/5cxc7 Most of which is not too flattering. And I've noticed that everyone seems to attack Dr. Wheeler for being a profiteer for marketing his PEENUTS product, but it's okay for Dr. Shoskes to sell his PROSTA-Q product. It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that PROSTA-Q is one of your advertisers, would it? I noticed that there is now a link in the advertisement section to http://www.prostatitiscure.com/ which is Dr Song's web site. I bet you will now speak highly of him. > > > Why no mention of the following doctors > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG > Most of which is not too flattering. And I've noticed that everyone seems > to attack Dr. Wheeler for being a profiteer for marketing his PEENUTS > product, but it's okay for Dr. Shoskes to sell his PROSTA-Q product. The /tiny/ difference between the two is called "proof", as in studies published in peer-reveiwed journals. Call me picky if you like. > It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that PROSTA-Q is one of your > advertisers, would it? My answer hardly matters. You have already decided. > I noticed that there is now a link in the advertisement section to > http://www.prostatitiscure.com/ which is Dr Song's web site. I bet you will > now speak highly of him. I do not control the google ads. If you want to get injections into your prostate in Asia, then do it. I have one guy on my discussion board who speaks highly of the procedure: http://www.chronicpelvicpain.us/ I did not even realize until now that Dr. David Wise is not even an M.D. Why then do you get on the case of Polacheck M.D. just because he did not start practicing urology until recently? > > Most of which is not too flattering. And I've noticed that everyone seems > > to attack Dr. Wheeler for being a profiteer for marketing his PEENUTS [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > -- > Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG > I did not even realize until now that Dr. David Wise is not even an > M.D. Why then do you get on the case of Polacheck M.D. just because > he did not start practicing urology until recently? David Wise is /more/ than a MD, he's a PhD. Look it up and find out how much more study he's done than your average MD. AND, unlike Pullacheque and his ilk, he's actually HAD CPPS!! No, David Wise is not a MD, but he works in close co-operation with Rodney Anderson. "Who is Rodney Anderson?", I hear you ask. Is he just like Pullacheque: a non-urologist pretending to know something about urology? A portly old ship's doctor who squandered his career in the military, like Pullacheque? A start-gazer and dreamer who sells bogus cures on the Mexican border? A man who takes money to write studies on prostatitis, but never produces anything? No, no, no! Dr Anderson just happens to be a Professor of Urology at the prestigious Stanford University. Oops! Perhaps we're comparing CHALK to CHEESE. A Kerry Supporter wrote > > I did not even realize until now that Dr. David Wise is not even an > > M.D. Why then do you get on the case of Polacheck M.D. just because [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Dr Anderson just happens to be a Professor of Urology at the prestigious > Stanford University. Oops! Perhaps we're comparing CHALK to CHEESE. Dear Kerry Supporter, My intent was not to discredit Wise or Anderson. My intent was to show that many contributions can be made by those who have not spent their careers focused in the area of urology (those who are focused often do not see the forest for the trees). Take Larry Clapp PhD, for example. He and Dr Wheeler have stated for years that CP is a precursor to prostate cancer. There was recently a study to confirm this. He as also said that good nutrition was the answer to helping those with CP. Shoskes later said the same with regards to Quercetin. BTW - Here's some good news for you. I heard John Kerry say that, if elected, he will make it a priority to find a cure for CPPS and... wait a minute! Cancel that! Kerry just changed his mind. > Dear Kerry Supporter, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > nutrition was the answer to helping those with CP. Shoskes later said the > same with regards to Quercetin. Well, it is clear from the posts that you are a troll for one of these fringe doctors and now I guess we see which one. Would the "proof" that CP causes prostate cancer be the study below? Note by the way that most studies looking at a pathological or epidemiological link between "CP" and prostate cancer have examined prostatitis categories I, II and IV and NOT III (CPPS) which is what 85% of prostatitis patients actually have. This study shows that CPPS and prostate cancer are NOT related, the opposite of what Drs. Clapp and Wheeler say. Also note that this study doesn't address the obvious link, which is that developing a symptomatic genital condition that brings you to a Urologist increases to close to 100% the chance that you will get a rectal exam and a PSA test, which are the ways you diagnose early prostate cancer. Epidemiology. 2004 Jan;15(1):93-9. Prostatitis as a risk factor for prostate cancer. Roberts RO, Bergstralh EJ, Bass SE, Lieber MM, Jacobsen SJ. Department of Health Sciences Research, Division of Epidemiology, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minnesota 55905, USA. roberts.rosebud@mayo.edu BACKGROUND: The association of infection or inflammation of the prostate with prostate cancer has been suggested but not established. This study was undertaken to investigate this association. METHODS: Cases were Olmsted County, Minnesota, residents with histologically proven prostate cancer diagnosed between January 1980 and December 1996. Cases (n = 409) were each matched to 2 control subjects (n = 803) on age at diagnosis of prostate cancer, residency in Olmsted County, and duration of the community medical record. The medical record of each subject was reviewed for a history of acute or chronic bacterial prostatitis or chronic pelvic pain syndrome (inflammatory type). RESULTS: The relative odds of prostate cancer were elevated in men with history of any type of prostatitis (odds ratio [OR] = 1.7; 95% confidence interval [CI] = 1.1-2.6) or acute prostatitis (2.5; 1.3-4.7). The mean time from most recent episode of acute prostatitis to the diagnosis of prostate cancer was 12.2 years. After exclusion of men with acute prostatitis 2 years before the index date, the relationship was somewhat reduced (1.9; 0.9-3.8). Chronic bacterial prostatitis was more weakly associated with prostate cancer (1.6; 0.8-3.1), whereas chronic pelvic pain syndrome was not associated at all (0.9; 0.4-1.8). CONCLUSIONS: Infection in the form of acute or chronic bacterial prostatitis may be associated with prostate cancer. However, our data do not provide compelling evidence to support this. As a result of the limitations of current methods of assessing chronic prostatitis, biochemical or tissue markers of infection or inflammation of the prostate may help clarify their role in the pathogenesis of prostate cancer. Read the line: RESULTS: The relative odds of prostate cancer were elevated in men with history of any type of prostatitis (odds ratio [OR] = 1.7; 95% confidence interval [CI] = 1.1-2.6) or acute prostatitis (2.5; 1.3-4.7). That's *any type of prostatitis* - type I, II, or IIIA. > > Dear Kerry Supporter, > > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > of the prostate may help clarify their role in the pathogenesis of > prostate cancer. > > He and Dr > > Wheeler have stated for years that CP is a precursor to prostate cancer. > > There was recently a study to confirm this Um, not if you read the conclusion. > CONCLUSIONS: Infection in the form of acute or > chronic bacterial prostatitis may be associated with prostate cancer. > However, our data do not provide compelling evidence to support this. 3 months of antibiotics made me a lot better, but now I still have some symptoms AND quinolone arthritis, and quinolone insomnia -- even AFTER stopping the drug! The mystery to me is why so few doctors -- including urologists who claim to specialize in prostatitis -- give such awful advice. I've been told: 1 - Zithromax does not treat prostatitis because it does not penetrate the prostate [REALITY: it's the drug of choice for chlamydial prostatitis] 2 - Tests for chlamydia won't work for patients taking Cirpro or Levaquin [REALITY: see point 3] 3 - Levaquin kills Chlamydia [REALITY: it's terrible for Chlymydia -- may put it into a suspended state but not kill it] 4 - even Cipro improves you, you may need to take it for 3 or 4 or more months, and eventually it will work. You should take it even though you experience tendon pains. [REALITY: prolonged use of Cipro is NOT approved, and may permanently damage ligaments] And from my Googling, ALL of that is crackpot crazy incompetent dangerous advice. Point #3 was from someone who had won a "doctor of the year" award. #4 was by a NYC doctor who is prominant in the IC field. I have no medical training, so why was a few weeks of Googling enough to teach me basic stuff that mainstream respected Docs don't know or won't tell me? Halp! Any recommendations for the NYCity area? - Carlos OK, since you haven't understood the abstract I will try to explain it to you. When all patients were taken together, there was a small elevated risk. When the groups were broken down, CPPS patients had NO elevation of risk. That means that all the risk elevation detected in the group as a whole was contributed to by patients with actue or chronic BACTERIAL prostatitis. Again, there is no cause and effect relationship here. The most likely explanation is still that these patients were more likely to see a Urologist, have an elevated PSA due to the infection and be more likely to have a biopsy (and find an early cancer). The conclusion of these researchers about the link between prostatitis and prostate cancer is clear: ... our data do not provide compelling evidence to support this. To claim otherwise is to misrepresent the study. > Read the line: RESULTS: The relative odds of prostate cancer were elevated > in men with [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] >> of the prostate may help clarify their role in the pathogenesis of >> prostate cancer. CPPS does not count. Prostatodynia, or Cat IIIB prostatitis must be not considered. This disorder has mistakenly been grouped in with prostatitis only because of similar symptoms, when in fact, there is nothing wrong with the prostate. I'm talking about real prostatitis being a cause of prostate cancer. If the patient has Cat I, II, or IIIA, there is a link, and if the study were to follow the subjects for a longer period of time, you'd see more of a connection. > OK, since you haven't understood the abstract I will try to explain it > to you. When all patients were taken together, there was a small [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > >> of the prostate may help clarify their role in the pathogenesis of > >> prostate cancer. > CPPS does not count. Prostatodynia, or Cat IIIB prostatitis must be not > considered. This disorder has mistakenly been grouped in with prostatitis [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > study were to follow the subjects for a longer period of time, you'd see > more of a connection. My, my, you really do have a lot to learn about this condition. CPPS is defined as NIH categoies IIIa and IIIb and is NOT confined to IIIb alone. And to reiterate, in this study that showed such a weak correlation between BACTERIAL prostatitis and prostate cancer that the authors concluded that NO LINK exists, there was no correlation between CPPS (= nonbacterial prostatitis = IIIa = IIIb) and prostate cancer. Your final statement is the classic statement of a true believer in denial. What, you didn't get better with PEENNUTTS after 3 years? Well by golly, you've got to take it for 4. Your final statement also shows that you again did not read/understand this very simple abstract. This was a case-control study, not a prospective trial so patients weren't followed into the future. And of course, if you follow any prostatitis patient long enough into the future and they live into their 80s they will have an 80% chance of having biopsy proven prostate cancer. Why? Because it is true for EVERY MAN and men with prostatitis have the same high risk for developing prostate cancer as other men without prostate cancer. > Take Larry Clapp PhD, > for example. He and Dr Wheeler have stated for years that CP is a > precursor to prostate cancer. There was recently a study to confirm > this. Cite the study. I'll bet you cannot find a study saying that nonbacterial prostatitis leads to prostate cancer. > > Take Larry Clapp PhD, > > for example. He and Dr Wheeler have stated for years that CP is a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Cite the study. I'll bet you cannot find a study saying that nonbacterial > prostatitis leads to prostate cancer. It was from the Mayo clinic: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ui ds=14712152&dopt=Abstract RESULTS: The relative odds of prostate cancer were elevated in men with history of any type of prostatitis (odds ratio [OR] = 1.7; 95% confidence interval [CI] = 1.1-2.6) or acute prostatitis (2.5; 1.3-4.7). >>> Take Larry Clapp PhD, >>> for example. He and Dr Wheeler have stated for years that CP is a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It was from the Mayo clinic: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ui > ds=14712152&dopt=Abstract > > RESULTS: The relative odds of prostate cancer were elevated in men > with history of any type of prostatitis (odds ratio [OR] = 1.7; 95% > confidence interval [CI] = 1.1-2.6) or acute prostatitis (2.5; > 1.3-4.7). From the same study: "... whereas chronic pelvic pain syndrome was not associated at all [with prostate cancer]" LOL! > >>> Take Larry Clapp PhD, > >>> for example. He and Dr Wheeler have stated for years that CP is a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > It was from the Mayo clinic: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ui > > ds=14712152&dopt=Abstract > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "... whereas chronic pelvic pain syndrome was not associated at all [with > prostate cancer]" CPPS (prostatodynia) is not what I said. When I say prostatitis, I mean, Cat I, II, IIA, and IV. Cat IIIB should not be considered prostatitis. > CPPS (prostatodynia) is not what I said. When I say prostatitis, I > mean, Cat I, II, IIA, and IV. Cat IIIB should not be considered > prostatitis. Why are you writing to this group if you do not understand the definition of prostatitis and CPPS? What right do you have to lecture us if your basic knowledge is lacking? Let me help you: "Chronic nonbacterial prostatitis/chronic pelvic pain syndrome (CPPS), where there is no demonstrable infection. Subgroups of this class are: 3.1. Inflammatory chronic pelvic pain syndrome, where white cells are found in the semen expressed prostatic secretions (EPS), or voided bladder urine-3 (VB-3). 3.2. Non-inflammatory chronic pelvic pain syndrome, where white cells are NOT found in semen, EPS, and VB-3." And are you not aware of studies that show that the IIIA and IIIB subdivisions, based on WBCs, are meaningless? That inflammation, based on the more sensitive markers like cytokines, show that inflammation is present in both categories? If you want to upgrade your scant knowledge on the topic of prostatitis and male chronic pelvic pain syndrome, be sure to visit http://www.chronicpelvicpain.us/ and http://www.chronicprostatitis.com/ > > CPPS (prostatodynia) is not what I said. When I say prostatitis, I > > mean, Cat I, II, IIA, and IV. Cat IIIB should not be considered [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > the more sensitive markers like cytokines, show that inflammation is present > in both categories? Check out the following link... http://www.urologychannel.com/prostate/prostatitis/index.shtml Pay particular attention to how the types of prostatitis are defined, especially prostatodynia.. << Acute bacterial prostatitis (ABP) is inflammation of the prostate gland caused by bacteria such as Escherichia coli and Klebsiella. Severe complications may develop if not promptly treated. ABP can be fatal if the bacterial infection is untreated and travels to the bloodstream (sepsis). Chronic bacterial prostatitis (CBP) is a recurrent infection and inflammation of the prostate and urinary tract. Symptoms are less severe than those associated with acute bacterial prostatitis. Nonbacterial prostatitis is an inflamed prostate without bacterial infection. Prostatodynia, sometimes called chronic pelvic pain syndrome (CPPS), is the occurrence of prostatitis symptoms, without inflammation or bacterial infection. so if you are saying that all CPPS patients have a detectable prostate disorder, you just shot yourself in the foot. What about women with chronic pelvic pain? Answer, if there is not inflammation detected in the prostate, the cause of the pelvic pain is something else (nerve inflammation, compression of an intervertibral disk in the sacral section of the spine, etc). True prostatitis should be recatagorized in this way: Category I: Acute bacterial Category II: Chronic bacterial Category III: Inflammation of the prostate, but bacteria not yet detected, or infection with an unknown type of bacteria. Since all types can be symptomatic or asymptomatic, category IV should be eliminated. Back to my original point, of course CPPS cannot cause cancer of the prostate because true CPPS (non-prostatis prostatodynia) does not involve the prostate. >>> CPPS (prostatodynia) is not what I said. When I say prostatitis, I >>> mean, Cat I, II, IIA, and IV. Cat IIIB should not be considered [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > prostate because true CPPS (non-prostatis prostatodynia) does not > involve the prostate. You are priceless, aren't you? When spanked for being wrong, you simply find a page with errors on it and use that as your justification! LOL. Read this http://www.medreviews.com/pdfs/articles/RIU_21_16.pdf then go away and stop bothering us. > BTW - Here's some good news for you. I heard John Kerry say that, if > elected, he will make it a priority to find a cure for CPPS and... > wait a minute! Cancel that! Kerry just changed his mind. Bush, Flip-Flopper-in-Chief: http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site/pp.asp?c=klLWJcP7H&b=118263 http://www.democrats.org/specialreports/top10_flipflops/ Oh, and BTW, Out-of-work-Programmer, with another 4 years of Bush, you'd better learn how to flip those burgers with panache! Vote Kerry <kerry@for.prez.com> wrote > > Oh, and BTW, Out-of-work-Programmer, with another 4 years of Bush, you'd > better learn how to flip those burgers with panache! Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm no big supporter of Bush either (what a joke - two rich boys running for office). I'm not going to be foolish in believing either of these two clowns will do squat for me. I decided to stop waiting for some politician to do something about my job that was offshored, and instead make a career move on my own. No! I won't be flipping burgers. However, through my contacts, I may be landing a job as an assistant producer to prestigious film-maker, Randy West. You see, Vote-Kerry, when you keep an open mind, good things can and will happen - better career moves and better health. If you keep on with you narrow-minded view that only a few doctors in the world can treat CP, you will find this to be a long and difficult battle. For at least one person, the cure was the Manila Protocol. For others, it may be some guy in Italy exploding the stones in the prostate. And for some, the cure may even come from a medicine man for a tribe in a jungle in South America. > Vote Kerry <kerry@for.prez.com> wrote > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > And for some, the cure may even come from a medicine man for a tribe > in a jungle in South America. Hmmm! I've heard this before. Hi, Prostatitis Foundation. > Hmmm! I've heard this before. Hi, Prostatitis Foundation. First, I have no affiliation with the Prostatitis Foundation whatsoever. Second, I don't consider the PF to be a pejorative. This organization was formed to give a voice for sufferers like us and to raise public awareness. Why would you be against that? Could it be because you've started your own prostatitis information web site and you want to get a monopoly on information given to sufferers so you can get all the ad revenue? If so, this is capitalism run amuck! > Second, I don't consider the PF to be a pejorative. I do: http://www.chronicpelvicpain.us/viewtopic.php?t=864 > This organization was formed to give a voice for sufferers > like us and to raise public awareness. Don't make me laugh! >> Second, I don't consider the PF to be a pejorative. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Don't make me laugh! You don't like to laugh? :) Below is MORE SPAM from the same BULLSHITTER! >> Hmmm! I've heard this before. Hi, Prostatitis Foundation. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > information given to sufferers so you can get all the ad revenue? If so, > this is capitalism run amuck! > Vote Kerry <kerry@for.prez.com> wrote > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > flipping burgers. However, through my contacts, I may be landing a job as > an assistant producer to prestigious film-maker, Randy West. Randy West? The porn producer? > You see, Vote-Kerry, when you keep an open mind, good things can and will > happen - better career moves and better health. If you keep on with you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > exploding the stones in the prostate. And for some, the cure may even come > from a medicine man for a tribe in a jungle in South America. Keeping an open mind does not mean one subjects one's self to the dangers of anyone offering miracle cures using unsafe techniques. Such people have been left in far worse condition then they were before. Do a Google search on this news group and read the horror stories. Below are a list of QUACKS: > Why no mention of the following doctors (who are considered world experts > in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Sanos Clinic (Moscow) > Dr. Song in China This is NOT spam. I'm just someone who believes that everyone who suffers from this F**KING condition ought know who all the specialists in the world are. Bad they are not quacks. Pavels Ivdra has been practicing medicine for 40 years and has several dozen inventions to his credit. Dr Wheeler has cured many and he has shown that prostatitis is a pre-cursor to prostate cancer. > Below are a list of QUACKS: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Sanos Clinic (Moscow) > > Dr. Song in China Below is SPAM followed by a list of QUACKS who are ONLY in it for the money! > This is NOT spam. I'm just someone who believes that everyone who suffers > from this F**KING condition ought know who all the specialists in the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> > Sanos Clinic (Moscow) >> > Dr. Song in China Look son, This group is for adults - adult men who are living with awful pain, erectile dysfunction, and pissing problems, things you just would not understand. These are serious issues and I'm trying to give helpful advice to the men who need it here. It's hard enough to do this without some punk kid like you vandalizing my posts. The biggest problem *you* have in life is getting to your burger-flipping job on time each day. And for the adult men in this group, I've known CP sufferers in Sweden who flew across the Baltic Sea to visit Dr. Pavels Ivdra in Latvia and they said that he was a good doctor. In addition, I'm considering buying Dr. Wheeler's Peenuts product. > Below is SPAM followed by a list of QUACKS who are ONLY in it for the money! > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >> > Sanos Clinic (Moscow) > >> > Dr. Song in China Below is BULLSHIT trying to hide the SPAM and list of QUACKS this dickhead has posted before! Ignore it all. The prick is trying to make money not make a dent in making people well. BE WARNED! > Look son, > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >> >> > Sanos Clinic (Moscow) >> >> > Dr. Song in China > Below is BULLSHIT trying to hide the SPAM and list of QUACKS this dickhead > has posted before! Ignore it all. The prick is trying to make money not make > a dent in making people well. > > BE WARNED! For Christ's sake, SHUT YOUR STUPID MOUTH AND GET BACK TO FRYING THEM BURGERS!!! JFYI of anyone following this thread, below is CRAP from a no nothing who sprukes for QUACKS with his SPAM. My only query is - how much does he get paid for doing this disservice to us? >> Below is BULLSHIT trying to hide the SPAM and list of QUACKS this >> dickhead [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > For Christ's sake, SHUT YOUR STUPID MOUTH AND GET BACK TO FRYING THEM > BURGERS!!! |
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