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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostatitis / April 2004An experience with recurrant prostatitis
I don't read this newsgroup much anymore for two reasons: a serious and sincere post very often results in an abusive attack on the poster, and the newsgroup has arranged itself into "camps," if you will, each camp refusing to acknowledge that there may be such things as bacterial and non-bacterial prostatitis. Having lived with prostatitis for 5 years, recurrent and extremely disabling, and seen at least that many doctors, and read as much as I could about prostatitis, and listened to what you guys have had to say here and on other boards, I have this to offer: I believe the evidence shows that there are a number of types of prostatitis and that one of them at least results from some sort of bacterial infection in the prostate or the seminal vesicles, or both. I believe also that specimen testing is a very chancy process. Because lab practices vary lab to lab and cultures are handled in different ways (specific procedure, duration of the culture, etc.) a specific "bug" may or may not be found. There may well be no bug to find in some men. In my own case, no bacterial evidence resulted from tests done five years ago. Half-way into my prostatitis experience (a couple years) one E. coli type would sometimes show up in a urine culture and I would again go on antibiotics, never for long duration but still I'd get better and in fact feel great. For awhile. There were more recurrences. A couple doctors later I got frustrated and went to yet another urologist who was very curious as to why I was getting prostatitis so severely and so recurrently, five and six times a year. We talked and traded theories and decided to do a series of urine, prostatic fluid, and full seminal fluid cultures. Two types of E. Coli showed up in the seminal fluid runs, one also positive for staph; my urologist did not seem very interested in the staph colony. He asked me to do an experiment. I was to take Cipro, which I have in the past responded well to, but this time take it for a full two months. I was to start using condoms during sex, just to see, because he theorized that it was possible that I was picking up E. coli during intercourse. I was to make sure I ejaculated at least three times a week either by masturbating or during intercourse. I liked the three times a week part. I have not had another bout of prostatitis or any prostatic discomfort for 13 months now. I still use condoms. I still ejaculate at least three times a week. I keep an emergency stash of Cipro and another antibiotic but have not touched either. In posting this I would like us all to have an understanding among ourselves. Flaming and verbal abuse gets none of us anywhere. If you want to discuss, discuss. If you want to display your anger, take it out on your wood pile where we who need help don't need to watch. Jim > I don't read this newsgroup much anymore for two reasons: a serious and > sincere post very often results in an abusive attack on the poster, and the [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Jim I missed the point of your post. Do you want to have a philosophical discussion about theories when somebody is in pain? Is this a newsroom about theories on what causes this condtition, or is this a place to get advice on what to do? After your in depth discussion with your doctor did he do anything different in the way this condition is treated by most doctors who don't have an in-depth discussion? He even disregarded your Staph so what was the point in even doing cultures? What would be the point of extending the cultures only to have them disregarded? Cultures are inadequate? That point is accepted by most doctors who don't even do cultures as most start off by using antibiotics. Finding "one" E.coli, come on!!!!! Ok everybody the secret is 2 months of cipro. Go spread the word.......... You have people here taking 5 antibiotics and the only advice people give is to get PCR tested. WTF. Women don't have E coli in their vaginas as it would cause a UTI just like men so all that little discussion with your doctor was meaningless. People here get recurrences without having sex and even virgins come done with this. He did the right thing by giving you some B.S. stories just to get you off his back but in the long run he did exactly what he normaly does, finds an excuse to give cipro as it does sh.t for Staph. Yeah, like this is the kind of doctor who would be interested in PCR for Staph. There is a disease progression with this condition and when antibiotics fail then you need to move on. Some people get maturation arrest, like Michael Jackson with his childhood phase, are stuck on antibiotics that don't work. If antibiotics worked then we wouldn't f.cking be here now wood we. First, read what I wrote again, Robert. Second, go to your woodpile and work out some of that misplaced aggression. Here's how it works in my thread which took me some time to write for myself, and for you guys. If you can't come back without attitude, I am going to ignore further posts from you. I suggest others take the same tac. Jim > First, read what I wrote again, Robert. Second, go to your woodpile and > work out some of that misplaced aggression. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Jim Ok, here's what I got from your post. There is for all practical purposes several different types of prostatitis: one in which bacteria are found by culture; two in which bacteria is the cause but they could not culture it out because the lab is incompetent and ; three, those cases in which bacteria could not be found and antibiotics don't work so they must be resistent to antibiotics. Then there is non bacterial causes but because all of the above it is rare or hard to prove. If you go right now avocet to your doctor and lie to him by saying it came back and order him to do another culture right now, what are the odds of finding one Ecoli in your seamen culture? You say they found two different Ecoli's? Let me quess, one was resistent to cipro and the other was not. Hey, it worked anyways. I can understand your position more than I can Idea Man. He states the only thing that has helped him is pain killers yet tells everybody else to get cultures from head to toe, PCR and everything else when he can get antibiotics anytime of the day or night. Do you think he can't afford two months cipro? > > First, read what I wrote again, Robert. Second, go to your woodpile and > > work out some of that misplaced aggression. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > resistent to antibiotics. Then there is non bacterial causes but because all > of the above it is rare or hard to prove. Ok. I like this level better. I did not say that there are cases where antibiotics do not work, only that short courses of antibiotics did not work for me; a very long one seems to have worked, along with some other things. > If you go right now avocet to your doctor and lie to him by saying it came > back and order him to do another culture right now, what are the odds of > finding one Ecoli in your seamen culture? You say they found two different > Ecoli's? Let me quess, one was resistent to cipro and the other was not. > Hey, it worked anyways. I would not go to my doctor and lie about prostate symptoms. He has been the most supportive and interested doctor I have found. He asks me to interactive in my own treatment because he knows I have taken a lot of time to learn about my disease. If I were to ask him to do another culture now, he would probably, my guess, go along with that. My guess, too, is that no E. coli would be found now. I am completely symptomless at this time. > I can understand your position more than I can Idea Man. He states the only > thing that has helped him is pain killers yet tells everybody else to get > cultures from head to toe, PCR and everything else when he can get > antibiotics anytime of the day or night. Do you think he can't afford two > months cipro? I've talked with Idea Man through email a number of times. He has done much research on his type of prostatitis. I respect his point of view, for his type of prostatitis, which is different from mine. If painkillers work for him and nothing else does, at least he has some control over his situation. If he says that painkillers are the complete solution for everyone with prostatitis, I would disagree with him. I am sure he knows that. I can't speak for what he can afford and I do not remember what antibiotic regimens he has tried. Jim >> I don't read this newsgroup much anymore for two reasons: >> a serious and sincere post very often results in an abusive >> attack on the poster, and the newsgroup has arranged itself >> into "camps," if you will, each camp refusing to acknowledge >> there may be such things as bacterial and non-bacterial >> prostatitis. Thank you for sharing your experience. I understand why there are so many negative responses. Many have tried what has worked for you, with out any results. It is frustrating to read after ninty days on cipro, three per day, and no results, that some one was "cured" using less. I nearly researched this disorder to death trying to find out caused my problem, but even with a good idea of what is going I still don't know exactly how to correct what is wrong. The most frustrating thing is the medical establishment. The majority of Doctors have been conditioned to act as if they know what is not known I found it quite imposible to find assistance because the system is not patient centered, research and practice are separated, and the bottom line is profit. (any kind of research is expensive, if the time I spent, was at a Doctors pay, it would be near a million) jrh > >> I don't read this newsgroup much anymore for two reasons: > >> a serious and sincere post very often results in an abusive [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > is frustrating to read after ninty days on cipro, three per day, > and no results, that some one was "cured" using less. I think we are all, all of us, different in our chemical compositions and in our reactions to Cipro, and to other drugs. > I nearly researched this disorder to death trying to find > out caused my problem, but even with a good idea of what > is going I still don't know exactly how to correct what is > wrong. I didn't either. And a couple doctors said to me, "Frankly, we don't know what do do." One said, "Jim, maybe you will just have to live with this." > The most frustrating thing is the medical establishment. The > majority of Doctors have been conditioned to act as if they [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is profit. (any kind of research is expensive, if the time > I spent, was at a Doctors pay, it would be near a million) I don't think I agree with all that. Maybe I've been lucky in running into doctors who seemed to care initially. They mostly just don't have enough knowledge about the serveral forms of prostatitis and become frustrated that the resources they do have at hand don't resolve the issue. It takes, imo, a very interested doctor willing to look at things in new ways, and to stay interested. Prostatitis is frustrating for them, too. Too often, though, they through up their arms and say things like "We've tried it all. You may have to live with this." Jim > jrh In article <_l9bc.34230$Lq4.2320@twister.socal.rr.com>, avocet@hawaii.rr.com >> In article <106p6n5p7eqsl37@corp.supernews.com>, Robert@hotmail.com >>>> I don't read this newsgroup much anymore for two reasons: >>>> a serious and sincere post very often results in an abusive >>>> attack on the poster, and the newsgroup has arranged itself >>>> into "camps," if you will, each camp refusing to acknowledge >>>> there may be such things as bacterial and non-bacterial >>>> prostatitis. >> Thank you for sharing your experience. >> I understand why there are so many negative responses. Many >> have tried what has worked for you, with out any results. It >> is frustrating to read after ninty days on cipro, three per day, >> and no results, that some one was "cured" using less. > I think we are all, all of us, different in our chemical compositions > and in our reactions to Cipro, and to other drugs. >> I nearly researched this disorder to death trying to find >> out what caused my problem, but even with a good idea of what >> is going on I still don't know exactly how to correct what is >> wrong. > I didn't either. And a couple doctors said to me, "Frankly, > we don't know what do do." One said, "Jim, maybe you will > just have to live with this." >> The most frustrating thing is the medical establishment. The >> majority of Doctors have been conditioned to act as if they [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> is profit. (any kind of research is expensive, if the time >> I spent, was at a Doctors pay, it would be near a million) > I don't think I agree with all that. Maybe I've been lucky > in running into doctors who seemed to care initially. All the doctors seemed to care initially, but the "caring" had no depth. The way the system is designed does not allow doctors to spend the time necessary to get to the bottom of the problem. The medical system is a disaster, and it's failure to cure or even understand CPPS is just one of many examples. > They mostly just don't have enough knowledge about the serveral > forms of prostatitis and become frustrated that the resources > they do have at hand don't resolve the issue. This is true, and many react with arogance instead of humility, and make things even worse. > It takes, imo, a very interested doctor willing to look at > things in new ways, and to stay interested. Prostatitis is > frustrating for them, too. Too often, though, they through > up their arms and say things like "We've tried it all. > You may have to live with this." The system has "tried it all" but knows nothing because it is broken! jrh > All the doctors seemed to care initially, but the "caring" > had no depth. The way the system is designed does not allow [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > jrh _______ jrh; I belong to an HMO which is notorious for short scheduling; that is, you have a 15 or 20 minute appointment into which you are supposed to cram all the stuff you want covered. It took awhile, but I figured out that if I went in with a copied list of my concerns written on paper, gave one to the doctor and held one myself and made it clear I wanted to talk about all those items, I began to get more attention. Now, when they see my name on the approaching appointment list, they schedule me more time. I don't think they resent doing this. In fact, two doctors I've dealt with have said they enjoy the exchanges. I agree: There is a certain amount of arrogance among certain specialists who assume we patients are not trained and therefore do not know what we are talking about. How would you fix the system, if you could? Jim In article <MFFbc.35905$Lq4.34668@twister.socal.rr.com>, avocet@hawaii.rr.com says.. >> All the doctors seemed to care initially, but the "caring" >> had no depth. The way the system is designed does not allow >> doctors to spend the time necessary to get to the bottom >> of the problem. The medical system is a disaster, and it's >> failure to cure or even understand CPPS is just one >> of many examples. >> This is true, and many react with arogance instead of humility, >> and make things even worse. >>> It takes, imo, a very interested doctor willing to look at >>> things in new ways, and to stay interested. Prostatitis is >>> frustrating for them, too. Too often, though, they through >>> up their arms and say things like "We've tried it all. >>> You may have to live with this." >> The system has "tried it all" but knows nothing because >> it is broken! > I belong to an HMO which is notorious for short scheduling; that is, you > have a 15 or 20 minute appointment into which you are supposed to cram all > the stuff you want covered. > It took awhile, but I figured out that if I went in with a copied list of my > concerns written on paper, gave one to the doctor and held one myself and > made it clear I wanted to talk about all those items, I began to get more > attention. Now, when they see my name on the approaching appointment list, > they schedule me more time. I don't think they resent doing this. In fact, > two doctors I've dealt with have said they enjoy the exchanges. > I agree: There is a certain amount of arrogance among certain specialists > who assume we patients are not trained and therefore do not know what we are > talking about. > How would you fix the system, if you could? Some ideas. 1. Patients Rights. a. right to drugs b. ritht to information c. control of treatment 2. No payments for any service that provides no benifit. 3. A major change in health care regulations. a. the establishment of an independent safety board to investigate deaths, faults, and failures and the power to mandate change. b. deregulation of medical technology. 4. The establishment of a nation wide health data base with safeguards to protect patients rights, to be used for the purpose of keeping tracking of what is working and what is not etc. 5. The breakup of the large drug companies into separate research and manufacturing units. 6. Make major changes in the aproval process for new drugs. a. Separate safety and effectiveness, so once a drug was found to be safe it could be sold and the effectiveness would be determined from the data base. 7. Replacing the "doctors" monopoly with a licenceing system that uses standardized tests for different classes of health care providers, the tracking of the success rates of those providers and public access to the records. 8. Government grants to create a computer diagnostic program that people and doctors can use to identify health care problems. etc. >In article <MFFbc.35905$Lq4.34668@twister.socal.rr.com>, avocet@hawaii.rr.com >says.. [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > >etc. These are all wonderful ideas, I'd like to see them all implemented. One problem though, it gets in the way of the greed machine. And all those self serving bastards that work in the pharmacy/medical industries. Look at the way that the drug industry has tried to hem us in in the US. Trying to lobby(bribe) our law makers to make it illegal to purchase drugs from sources outside the US. Or how they have tried over the years to get the health and supplement market outlawed. If we can't get proper vitamin supplements think of all the mal-nourished people that'd make who'd have to go to clinical physicians for treatment. And how about the homeopathic/natural methods for treating day to day ailments? Can't let that cut into the bloated profits Doctors and drug companies could make. "gothika" added to the dicussion.... > >> How would you fix the system, if you could? {snip} > These are all wonderful ideas, I'd like to see them all implemented. > One problem though, it gets in the way of the greed machine. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ailments? Can't let that cut into the bloated profits Doctors and drug > companies could make. Yes, it's very true that the greed machine runs rampant inside these pharmaceutical and medical industries, but the standard laboratories where our cultures are done, are immune from all the this corruption we're seeing everywhere else.  Signature¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ --- U§ê FIDUCIAL_POWER@HOTMAIL.COM tø rêåch mê --- ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > "gothika" added to the dicussion.... > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > our cultures are done, are immune from all the this corruption we're seeing > everywhere else. The answer is to do our own cultures and then if they are not done right we can sue ourselves. We will all be rich. >> "gothika" added to the dicussion.... >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >The answer is to do our own cultures and then if they are not done right we >can sue ourselves. We will all be rich. You must be a lawyer. Only a lawyer would try and dream up a way to screw themselves in the a.s. >> ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ >> --- U§ê FIDUCIAL_POWER@HOTMAIL.COM tø rêåch mê --- >> ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > >> "gothika" added to the dicussion.... > >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > You must be a lawyer. Only a lawyer would try and dream up a way to > screw themselves in the a.s. YOu must be Canadian. Only a Canadian knows how to fucc up a system and make it worst. > >> ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > >> --- U§ê FIDUCIAL_POWER@HOTMAIL.COM tø rêåch mê --- > >> ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ >"gothika" added to the dicussion.... > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >our cultures are done, are immune from all the this corruption we're seeing >everywhere else. Not really. Where do you think they get the test kits and equipment from? The pharmaceutical industry is all invasive and very unforgiving. They spend millions developing test reagants and equipment and have a vested interest is seeing it set up as industry standard. a drug rep can make or break a lab. You play ball or die. I have a family full of medical professionals and have seen the business at it's worse. For instance: All the major medical research firms(owned by the drug companies of course.) had developed elaborate and expensive tests for breast cancer. It was a multi-pronged approach utilizing blood/tissue tests as well as radialogical exams. All very expensive for the patient, so it wasn't a solution for broad based pre-screening. Just a means of finding the cancer after it'd started. One Doctor of oncology who worked both a practice and did some independent research wanted to develop a simple low cost test to pre-screen before the cancer developed a foothold. She devised a test that checked for specific proteins present only when there were cancer cells. She had to fight long and hard to get FDA aproval for testing(after all they reasoned that something so simple couldn't possibly be accurate) . Once she got approval and the tests studies came out with a near perfect finding she had to fight the drug companies who were frantically working on their own "versions" of her test. One they could patent as being different from her's and that they could use to cut her out of the market. She did finally persevere and got backing from a small pharmaceutical firm. Her test is now an industry standard. It did cost the industry dearly in lost revenues from their high dollar tests which became obsolete virtually overnight. ALL industry in America is corrupt and will continue to be as long as it's built on the Corporate model. A system that puts value of things over that of human life. > On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 23:13:33 GMT, "º-- Idea Man --º" > <fiducial_power¤¤¤¤@hotmail.com> wrote: > >Yes, it's very true that the greed machine runs rampant inside these > >pharmaceutical and medical industries, but the standard laboratories where > >our cultures are done, are immune from all the this corruption we're seeing > >everywhere else. . > ALL industry in America is corrupt and will continue to be as long as > it's built on the Corporate model. A system that puts value of things > over that of human life. Gothika, I was being a bit sarcastic with my remark that standard laboratories were immune to corruption. Haven't you been reading my rants and raves for the last 3 days? A bright guy like you should have caught on to that.....he he.....I support your complaint that ALL industry in America is corrupt. I would only amend this sentiment with a little optimism and say that maybe "most" industry falls prey to corruption. I like to think that there may still be some good people left in this world. Best regards. Signature¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ --- U§ê FIDUCIAL_POWER@HOTMAIL.COM tø rêåch mê --- ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ >> On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 23:13:33 GMT, "º-- Idea Man --º" >> <fiducial_power¤¤¤¤@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Yes, it's very true that the greed machine runs rampant >>> inside these pharmaceutical and medical industries, but >>> the standard laboratories where our cultures are done, >>> are immune from all the this corruption we're seeing >>> everywhere else. >> ALL industry in America is corrupt and will continue to be >> as long as it's built on the Corporate model. A system that >> puts value of things over that of human life. It't not the "corporate model" it's the rules that have caused the failure. and health care will only be made worse by creating an absolute state run monopoly. What is needed is rules that give an economic advantage to smaller groups. The existing rules do exactly the opposite. > I was being a bit sarcastic with my remark that standard > laboratories were immune to corruption. <clip> > I support your complaint that ALL industry in America is corrupt. The regulations are where the problem is. Businesses are established to make profits, so the rules have to be writen so profits depend on serving the needs of people. Those who control the health care industry have been allowed to write the rules for the health care system. It is a tangled mess with costs spinning out of control, and declining quality of service. > I would only amend this sentiment with a little optimism and > say that maybe "most" industry falls prey to corruption. I like > to think that there may still be some good people left in this > world. When the rules are wrong, "good people" are at an economic disadvantage that makes it unlikely they will be promoted to positions of power. jrh >>> On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 23:13:33 GMT, "º-- Idea Man --º" >>> <fiducial_power¤¤¤¤@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >are established to make profits, so the rules have to >be writen so profits depend on serving the needs of people. Actually the corporate business model serves only the corporation at the cost of people. How else could it be considered a good thing to lay off thousands of lower level employees just to save costs during the upcoming business quarter and pay million dollar bonuses to the corporate ceo that pulled off such a stunt as a reward for a job well done? It could be argued that the corporate model serves the stock holders but I believe that's just so much semantic hogwash. Ultimately such kamikazee tactics destroy the company and the only stockholders that profit are the senoirs in the board room, who all use million dollar umbrella options to bail out with. >Those who control the health care industry have been allowed to >write the rules for the health care system. It is a tangled [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >disadvantage that makes it unlikely they will be promoted to >positions of power. True. The system is set up to only allow those with fins on their backs into positions of power. Call it a brotherhood. birds of a feather flock together. Those in power who are corrupt and evil can't afford to have even one honest person in their midst. I've seen it working in law enforcement. Corrupt power structure from top to bottom with provisions in place to weed out the honest ones and drive them out. Hell I quit after four years of working for the state criminal investigation bureau and seeing all kind of evidence rigging and exculpatory actions on the part of the prosecuting attorneys. I had to get out after refusing to take part in evidence tampering. They stuck me in a desk job and made it clear that I'd get no promotions or raises since I wasn't a team player. To hell with 'em. This is the statre of the country we live in today. If I live long enough I plan to hightail it to better climes, I've served the system nigh well to my death and plan to give no more. >jrh > >"gothika" added to the dicussion.... > > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Not really. Where do you think they get the test kits and equipment > from? I guess they buy it all everyone else? > The pharmaceutical industry is all invasive and very unforgiving. > They spend millions developing test reagants and equipment and have a > vested interest is seeing it set up as industry standard. > a drug rep can make or break a lab. How can they do that? The work is generated from doctors. You play ball or die. In your world maybe. > I have a family full of medical professionals and have seen the > business at it's worse. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > all they reasoned that something so simple couldn't possibly be > accurate) . She must prove accuracy and it is very simple to do that. > Once she got approval and the tests studies came out with a near > perfect finding she had to fight the drug companies who were > frantically working on their own "versions" of her test. > One they could patent as being different from her's and that they > could use to cut her out of the market. So the test was valid. The question then became who deserves the patent. Progress was made for all. The original doctor who developed the test was not motivated by money or was she? She developed it to help people or did she? The bottom line is that a test is now in use. The longer or bigger question then becomes has it proven itself to be clinical useful or can they make money on it? She will get the nobel prize for the invention but she would be fired by Donald Trump. Everybody wins. > She did finally persevere and got backing from a small pharmaceutical > firm. Her test is now an industry standard. It did cost the industry > dearly in lost revenues from their high dollar tests which became > obsolete virtually overnight. I thought you said the industry fought the test and they control all testing? Then you say that it was the industry itself that developed the test and now you are saying that the industry cost itself money. Get your paranoia straight guy. All industry is bad OK. Repeat after me, "all industry is bad" and government should take over the industry. OK, Canadian, Australian, Chinese, North Korean friend. > ALL industry in America is corrupt and will continue to be as long as > it's built on the Corporate model. A system that puts value of things > over that of human life. Now you got it. We need a government model. > In article <MFFbc.35905$Lq4.34668@twister.socal.rr.com>, avocet@hawaii.rr.com > says.. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > b. ritht to information > c. control of treatment Right to drugs and control treatment, boy are you a nut. > 2. No payments for any service that provides no benifit. What planet are you from? > 3. A major change in health care regulations. > a. the establishment of an independent safety board > to investigate deaths, faults, and failures and > the power to mandate change. Like free everything. > b. deregulation of medical technology. What does that mean? Oh, I see you want to do your own cultures, nice!!!!! > 4. The establishment of a nation wide health data base with > safeguards to protect patients rights, to be used for the > purpose of keeping tracking of what is working and what is not etc. Like retroactive abortions. > 5. The breakup of the large drug companies into separate research > and manufacturing units. Why not rape and pilage them first. > 6. Make major changes in the aproval process for new drugs. > a. Separate safety and effectiveness, so once a drug was > found to be safe it could be sold and the effectiveness > would be determined from the data base. That's right, we don't have not now. > 7. Replacing the "doctors" monopoly with a licenceing system > that uses standardized tests for different classes of health > care providers, the tracking of the success rates of those > providers and public access to the records. Get rid of licence all together. > 8. Government grants to create a computer diagnostic program > that people and doctors can use to identify health care > problems. sh.t that is funny. Don't forget that after you have diagnosed yourself you should have the right to prescribe your own meds. > etc. >> In article <MFFbc.35905$Lq4.34668@twister.socal.rr.com>, >avocet@hawaii.rr.com [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > >Right to drugs and control treatment, boy are you a nut. Not at all dumbass. The patient should have the right to say what drug is used or not. You're forgetting that there are drugs and there are drugs. Doctors rate patients according to their ability to pay. If you're rich you get the quality drugs if poor you get the sh.t drugs. If rich you get the full bore treatment if poor the minimal dosage. All designed to save the care facility money. You must be a Republican. >> 2. No payments for any service that provides no benifit. >What planet are you from? Why not? If you bought a new car and it conked out due to manufacturing defects would you still think you must continue to make payments on it? Why should doctors be exempt for product or service liability? >> 3. A major change in health care regulations. >> a. the establishment of an independent safety board >> to investigate deaths, faults, and failures and >> the power to mandate change. > >Like free everything. NAH Just to get what we pay for a.s crack. >> b. deregulation of medical technology. >What does that mean? Oh, I see you want to do your own cultures, nice!!!!! No But it'd be nice to be able to go to a lab to have tests done independently of a doctor. >> 4. The establishment of a nation wide health data base with >> safeguards to protect patients rights, to be used for the >> purpose of keeping tracking of what is working and what is not etc. > >Like retroactive abortions. A total no responsive, irrelavant repsonse. Tho' an aborttion would have worked wonder on you.(NOW I know you're a Repube.) >> 5. The breakup of the large drug companies into separate research >> and manufacturing units. > >Why not rape and pilage them first. Why not? They've raped and pilaged us for decades. >> 6. Make major changes in the aproval process for new drugs. >> a. Separate safety and effectiveness, so once a drug was [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >sh.t that is funny. Don't forget that after you have diagnosed yourself you >should have the right to prescribe your own meds. Not half as funny as you half wit. Doctors are human and make errors all the time. Which they oft times cover up. At least with a diagnostic program you'd have more control over your own life You obviously aren't well read. A computer based robotic "doctor" has been in development for decades. It'd be linked in with the hospital computers. That'd be the ones linked into the lab computers. so a more accurate diagnosis could be achieved. The med bot would look at the entire gamut of tests run and have the complete knowledge of medical science at it's disposal. That'd include the latest research findings. Unlike human doctors who have a fixed knowledge level and oft times can't keep up with all the latest breakthroughs, not to mention that being human they have their off days as well. Any findings of serious ailments that would require extreme treatment would be reviewed by human doctors. Doctors who are specialists in the required field and aren't exausted or run down with having to see dozens if not hundreds of patients. Why see a doctor if all you have is a common cold? A medbot would diagnose the bug through testing and prescribe the necessary regimen leaving doctors free to handle the serious conditions. You gotta be a right winger. >> etc. > >> In article <MFFbc.35905$Lq4.34668@twister.socal.rr.com>, > >avocet@hawaii.rr.com [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > is used or not. You're forgetting that there are drugs and there are > drugs. Who gave you a gold Visa card to use any drug you want? > Doctors rate patients according to their ability to pay. If you're > rich you get the quality drugs if poor you get the sh.t drugs. > If rich you get the full bore treatment if poor the minimal dosage. It's not the doctor sh.t head it's the insurance. If you are rich you get to do any fuching thing you want. If you are poor you do not have a f.cking right to have lobster dinners a.shole. Get off your a.s and stop asking for handouts. > All designed to save the care facility money. > You must be a Republican. You must be a f.cking communist. Russia gave up because of a.sholes like you bleeding the country dry. Thank you for that now go to Canada and finish the job. > >> 2. No payments for any service that provides no benifit. > >What planet are you from? > Why not? If you bought a new car and it conked out due to > manufacturing defects would you still think you must continue to make > payments on it? > Why should doctors be exempt for product or service liability? Joke right, a warrenty for treatment? That's a good next step for you Canadians. > >> 3. A major change in health care regulations. > >> a. the establishment of an independent safety board [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Like free everything. > NAH Just to get what we pay for a.s crack. Who's we? Not you a.shole. > >> b. deregulation of medical technology. > >What does that mean? Oh, I see you want to do your own cultures, nice!!!!! > No But it'd be nice to be able to go to a lab to have tests done > independently of a doctor. And have them paid for by me? You want to give a green light to " all powerful labs" run by the drug cartel by not requiring a doctor, way to go that is a really nice next step also for going bankrupt. > >> 4. The establishment of a nation wide health data base with > >> safeguards to protect patients rights, to be used for the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > Why not? They've raped and pilaged us for decades. Lets make them so weak they can not develop drugs or anything. Let's have Canada develop all new drugs with all the savings in their health care system. > >> 6. Make major changes in the aproval process for new drugs. > >> a. Separate safety and effectiveness, so once a drug was [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > You obviously aren't well read. A computer based robotic "doctor" has > been in development for decades. Sure, and it was specifically developed for use by non doctors so they can diagnose themselves and be able to order labs for themselves and the savings would be tremendous in health care cost. > It'd be linked in with the hospital computers. That'd be the ones > linked into the lab computers. so a more accurate diagnosis could be [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > required field and aren't exausted or run down with having to see > dozens if not hundreds of patients. Nice, I am sure Canada will soon have that after the savings they have acquired through the years. All the computers and latest drugs from the evil corrupt drug companies on line. > Why see a doctor if all you have is a common cold? A medbot would > diagnose the bug through testing and prescribe the necessary regimen > leaving doctors free to handle the serious conditions. Have you seen the differential diagnoses of a cold moron? Machines can't do a physical exam stupid. > You gotta be a right winger. > >> etc. You are more than a left winger, you are just stupid. > sh.t that is funny. Don't forget that after you have diagnosed yourself you > should have the right to prescribe your own meds. Hi friend's. Today we learn a new word ~~~> WASTE MATTER. Definitions of waste matter: noun: any materials unused and rejected as worthless or unwanted By the way, we have a new Miami posting here. ( Miami was an Internet troll that used to post offensive material, citing flame wars ) Good luck, Robert. You have some big shoes to fill. Signature¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ --- U§ê FIDUCIAL_POWER@HOTMAIL.COM tø rêåch mê --- ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ Totally ignore him. You want to keep a troll/rabble rouser with tunnel vision around, keep feeding it. Jim > > sh.t that is funny. Don't forget that after you have diagnosed yourself > you [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Good luck, Robert. You have some big shoes to fill. > By the way, we have a new Miami posting here. Paul Dukovich=NSMG=Jim=Robert > > By the way, we have a new Miami posting here. > > Paul Dukovich=NSMG=Jim=Robert I think Paul could be classified as a "Howler" http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame49.html but also fits into these categories -- Jerk: http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame34.html Stone Deaf: http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame78.html Troglodyte: http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame39.html Troller: http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame29.html Ferous Cranus: http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame63.html > > By the way, we have a new Miami posting here. > > Paul Dukovich=NSMG=Jim=Robert Sorry guys, but I don't believe in your fantom bacteria theory and I don't believe someone should order their own lab work. That makes me a troll I guess. "Robert" wrote.. > Sorry guys, but I don't believe in your fantom bacteria theory and I don't > believe someone should order their own lab work. That makes me a troll I > guess. That's OK. No problems. You'll find opinions vary here and that's partly why many post. Your opinion counts too, though. Thankyou for participating in the discussion. And please have yourself a very nice day, today. Signature¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ --- U§ê FIDUCIAL_POWER@HOTMAIL.COM tø rêåch mê --- ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ "Mast Cells" wrote. > Paul Dukovich=NSMG=Jim=Robert Just like ol' times, isn't it.....-··¨..·´¯`·......( *sigh* ) Signature¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ --- U§ê FIDUCIAL_POWER@HOTMAIL.COM tø rêåch mê --- ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ >> sh.t that is funny. Don't forget that after you have diagnosed yourself >you [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Good luck, Robert. You have some big shoes to fill. Yeah, whatever happened to nice shy Miami guy? As I remember Miami was gay, should be a good match up for Robert. Maybe we should get them both over to Eharmony.com Could be that relationship to last a life time. "gothika" wrote.. > Yeah, whatever happened to nice shy Miami guy? > As I remember Miami was gay, should be a good match up for Robert. > Maybe we should get them both over to Eharmony.com > Could be that relationship to last a life time. Ssshhh.....*cough* *cough*......ssSSHHH......don't mention that full name ever again!!! We don't want to wake him up......lol.... I think he's posting here occasionally under a different alias. Maybe swantzswanson? Anyhow, I'm happy for him because it appears as though he has successfully dealt with his demons and finally figured out that trolling newsgroups is a waste of his precious time & energy. Robert, on the other hand..........? Signature¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ --- U§ê FIDUCIAL_POWER@HOTMAIL.COM tø rêåch mê --- ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ hi avocet, hey, thanks for posting your story. i think your story is very interesting. One question i have is, whether or not you got E-coli through anal sex? Could that be a possibility? It could be the case that you did have non-bacterial prostatitis at first and then caught bacteria, you never know. The thing i hate to hear is that labs might not be doing their job correctly or that doctors dont know much. I think thats the wrong type of thinking. Most lab ppl are not some minimum wage ppl who do some crapy job, they are Micro-biologists. And they even have MDs working at these labs. I think some of the ppl here need to have more faith in their doctors, because, after all , they are the ones that went to medical school. I hate to think that after a number of cultures and tests that there is still something. I think that its nonsense. Cultures pick this stuff up. If they didnt, they would not be used. I got tested nearly 5 times for Chlamydia, because ppl here convinced me that its not picked up easily, and so on. I had urine tests / swab cultures/ and finally a DNA test to see that I do not have Chlamydia. I think that the Bacteria theory is overrated. I am not saying that it does not exist, I just think its overrated. When science can not prove its anything else, they blame bacteria. Where in fact there are lots of bacteria in our body, some good some bad, and we have had it forever, why is it now a problem? Food poisoning, touching things, and then touching your mouth, there are soo many ways bacteria gets in our body. If it really were some sort of bacteria causing the problem, you would have fevers, and chills, and a lot of pain. (maybe you do, i dont konw) But recent research shows, that only about what, 5% are bacterial cases. And they are apparent from the beginning, through cultures. The fact that that you were sexually active means you could have caught an infection or bacteria, afterwards. maybe it was non-bacterial, then you caught something. E-coli is usually something that is easily cultured. Makaveli "Makaveli" wrote.. > I hate to think that after a number of cultures and tests that there > is still something. I think that its nonsense. Cultures pick this > stuff up. No they don't. Standard cultures miss thing's all the time. This should be common knowledge by all who post here by now. I bet it's a topic of discussion among top infectious disease specialists. You know, the kind that write books and author them. Call your local lab and ask what they look for when they screen a sample. Just ask them if they screen for all bacteria? Don't be surprised when they tell you that it is your doctor who must ask them to do this. Oh, do they look for viruses? Nope. You will be surprised to learn the truth about the vagueness of these standard cultures and how the emphasis and philosophy of these labs is directed towards cost efficiency. I respect what your saying Makaveli and I don't want to argue foolishly with insults, but I have to disagree. By the way, a large number of doctors do not even know how to gather your prostatic fluid to get the sample. How can you feel confident when they order your semen be cultured and then inform you the results are negative? I'm not doctor bashing here, and in fact, those who post here are very good, but I had a GP tell me that a urine sample was adequate enough to rule out a prostatic infection! Do some of you remember I mentioned being mindful while speaking with some of these delicate specialists? Well, I was careful that day not to dispute that GP's view because I would have most definitely insulted him. Let me ask you if you think it's ever happened to someone that they actually did have an infection but it was ignored or missed? Sure! It's happened countless times. It should also be no surprise that we have many diseases with no cure either. In 1983 Waren and Marshall identified a "new" bacteria found in some tissues of ulcer patients. This work was initially rejected by gastroenterologists as being the delusions of a crazy man since the docs were taught that the stomach is sterile, much like the comments to me when I say bacteria can cause disease and be part of the symptomology of CPPS. In 1995, this bacterial origin of some ulcers was accepted and the anti-biotic treatments were begun. So what do you see as the clinical significance of anti-biotics in the treatment of ulcers? Are they working only because of their anti-inflammatory properties? I don't think so. It's interesting to note that many here try to persuade us that antibiotics only work for prostatitis and CPPS because of their anti-inflammatory properties. So who's right and what is actually happening? I think that if the bacteria Helicobacter pylori (H. pylori) can lead to ulcers and stomach cancer, we should keep an open mind and hope that findings such as these may help scientists learn how other bacteria cause disease? > If it really were some sort of bacteria causing the problem, you > would have fevers, and chills, and a lot of pain. (maybe you do, i > dont konw) True, but not always. That's a myth. > But recent research shows, that only about what, 5% are > bacterial cases. And they are apparent from the beginning, through > cultures. And which group are doing these tests? Are they not the same group of doctors producing the same tests over and over again during the last few years? OK. This is frustrating because not everyone of us has microorganisms that are involved with their symptoms. Everyone should know I recognize this, but I have to say it time and time again so that people don't freak out. This topic is important though because we have to keep all options open and the research must steadily improve so that one day we'll have answers for a condition that has ruined so many people's lives. Signature¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ --- U§ê FIDUCIAL_POWER@HOTMAIL.COM tø rêåch mê --- ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > I think that if the bacteria Helicobacter pylori (H. pylori) > can lead to ulcers and stomach cancer, we should keep an open > mind and [snip] http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=7p7bft%24sl6%241%40nnrp1.deja.com "Webmaster Chronicprostatitis.com" <webmaster@chronicprostatitis.com> wrote in message > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=7p7bft%24sl6%241%40nnrp1.deja.com Might I say a perfect example of an intelligent response in the spirit of good debate? Ok, I just did. I recommend anyone following this thread, click on the link above and read the information provided there for an opposite point of view regarding H.Pylori. Oh, and by the way, I certainly do not believe that UFO's are interstellar visitors because that's silly, but of COUrse Elvis is still alive! Who didn't know that? Signature¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ --- U§ê FIDUCIAL_POWER@HOTMAIL.COM tø rêåch mê --- ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > "Makaveli" wrote.. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > infectious disease specialists. You know, the kind that write books and > author them. Who regulates how long a culture is held? Do you think it is determined indivdually by a high school graduate? It is determined by specialist in "Microbiology" based on the needs of infection disease specialist PERIOD. Who teaches the microbiology to the new doctors? It is the infectious disease specialist. Who teaches the GP urology? It is the urologist. Who teaches the urologist microbiology? It is the infectious disease specialist. Let me simplify this for you. It is the infectious disease specialist who write books on how long to keep cultures. > Call your local lab and ask what they look for when they screen a sample. > Just ask them if they screen for all bacteria? Don't be surprised when they > tell you that it is your doctor who must ask them to do this. They go by procedures written by microbiologists based on the needs of the infectious disease specialist. Oh, do they > look for viruses? Nope. You will be surprised to learn the truth about the > vagueness of these standard cultures and how the emphasis and philosophy of > these labs is directed towards cost efficiency. There is nothing vague about it. Bacterial cultures do not culture for viruses, geezzz. Bacterial cultures do not test for fungess. Yes, it is cost effective to only do what is ordered so if a bacterial culture is ordered how can they bill for a viral culture also. I respect what your saying > Makaveli and I don't want to argue foolishly with insults, but I have to > disagree. By the way, a large number of doctors do not even know how to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > very good, but I had a GP tell me that a urine sample was adequate enough to > rule out a prostatic infection! It is and many doctors still rely on that. If it's there, it's there. The urologist usually gets or collects any fluid he wants. Do some of you remember I mentioned being > mindful while speaking with some of these delicate specialists? Well, I was > careful that day not to dispute that GP's view because I would have most [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that we have many diseases with no cure either. In 1983 Waren and Marshall > identified a "new" bacteria found in some tissues of ulcer patients. How were these bacteia found? What technique did they do? Let me put it this way, every thing has can be possibly done in the search for bacteria in the prostate has been done with conflicting non sensical results. It just does not exist. This > work was initially rejected by gastroenterologists as being the delusions of > a crazy man since the docs were taught that the stomach is sterile, much > like the comments to me when I say bacteria can cause disease and be part of > the symptomology of CPPS. In 1995, this bacterial origin of some ulcers was > accepted and the anti-biotic treatments were begun. The evidence was accepted and that changed the treatment. Without evidence you are delusional and crazy. So what do you see as > the clinical significance of anti-biotics in the treatment of ulcers? Are > they working only because of their anti-inflammatory properties? Which antibiotics are those used? How long does it take to cure ulcers? Hey turd, you can cure ulcers with the same antibiotics they have used to treat prostatitis. So tell me which antibiotic have they not used and tried on CPPS? I don't > think so. It's interesting to note that many here try to persuade us that > antibiotics only work for prostatitis and CPPS because of their [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > True, but not always. That's a myth. So no fever, no chills, pain, and no cure with antibiotics which makes sound like bacterial to you? That's a myth. > > But recent research shows, that only about what, 5% are > > bacterial cases. And they are apparent from the beginning, through [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > research must steadily improve so that one day we'll have answers for a > condition that has ruined so many people's lives. It useless and a waste of time to try and discuss any thing with someone who's head is stuck inside the "box" of conventional science. Virtually ALL researchers who made new discoveries were attacked by the small minds of conventional thought. To think that our medical science as it stands today has all the answers can only be the statement of an arrogant mind. Our "science" has only been around for a couple of centuries. On the other hand Nature's lab has been around for billions of years. To think we even have a crude understanding of how nature works is the highest of conceit. To say a urine test can show everything is pure rubbish. In fact I'd venture to say that urinalyis is pretty much crap. At least inregards to the problems of those in this group. Otherwise this group wouldn't in all likelyhood exist. If urinalysis was infallible and actually caught bacterial infections them the doctors would be able to prescribe the appropriate abx and the patient would be cured. Hence most of us wouldn't be here now. Most urine tests test for elevated white blood cells counts. We now know that there are a whole host of bacteria and viruses that can infect the human host and won't cause an elevation in WBC's. There are also bacteria that only respond to very specific culture mediums and others who for reasons unknow won't culture in a dish at all. All which bring us to the concept of "managed medicine". Or to put it baldly treatment on the cheap, or worse yet no treatment at all. If you start counting the costs when treating a patient you may as well not treat him at all. I know for a fact that doctors and those in the medical industry don't skimp on tests or treatment when it comes to THEIR health. Just when treating the Joe off the street. THAT'S the real problem with getting our condition treated. There are those in the medical profession that have the honesty to admit that they don't have the answers and a few who are willing to try various courses of treatment even though the crappy overly simplistic/crude testing methods do show anything. It's these individuals that represent our single hope in getting any form of treatment for our conditions. They apply common sense with what therapies are at their disposal to at least try and give us some relief. My current uro is letting me stay on abx's even though all the usual tests don't show any sign of bacterial infection. I certainly evince all the physical symptoms and get relief when I stay on the abx's long enough. This would tell anyone with a rational mind that it HAS to be bacterial. The fact that it only slows down the infections points to the bug being smarter than the regular "scientific" community is willing to admit. There is nothing so dangerous as someone with a "little" knowledge. Especially when they can't admit that they don't know everything. >> "Makaveli" wrote.. >> [quoted text clipped - 120 lines] >> research must steadily improve so that one day we'll have answers for a >> condition that has ruined so many people's lives. > In fact I'd venture to say that urinalyis is pretty much crap. > I certainly evince all the physical symptoms and get relief when I > stay on the abx's long enough. > This would tell anyone with a rational mind that it HAS to be > bacterial. http://www.chronicprostatitis.com/abx.html >> In fact I'd venture to say that urinalyis is pretty much crap. >> I certainly evince all the physical symptoms and get relief when I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >http://www.chronicprostatitis.com/abx.html Negative sport. I'm taking Doxycycline which has NO anti-inflammitory properties. Haven't been able to take a quinilone based abx for 5 years. It's not about the pain, I also suffer fluid retention, cough up large amount of slimy green blood flecked sputum. Have bronchial inflammation and have sematic fluid that is dark yellow with large fat bodies. If not for these obvious signs the Doctors wouldn't let me stay on the abx's. > >http://www.chronicprostatitis.com/abx.html > > Negative sport. I'm taking Doxycycline which has NO anti-inflammitory > properties. I see. So you are saying you cannot read the page to which I referred. A few sandwiches short of a picnic, aren't we? "gothika" wrote..... > It useless and a waste of time to try and discuss any thing with > someone who's head is stuck inside the "box" of conventional science. [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > There is nothing so dangerous as someone with a "little" knowledge. > Especially when they can't admit that they don't know everything. Hi Gothika. I just watched the video Gothika the other night.....lol....hey, if anyone likes thrillers, it's a not a bad film. You could even enhance the viewing experience by watching this thriller in a dimly lit room and you never know, it may even jolt you off your seat a time or two? Just be careful if your hurting in the perenium. Two thumbs up for Gothika! Regarding your comments, I like what you wrote in the majority of your post, dude. It's pretty much accurate on most all accounts and thanks for contributing. If I may point something out though? I'm not debating you buds, just adding to what you wrote. Isn't it true that it is the nature and tendency of man to point out the negative in others and not the positive? I mean someone could be extremely productive and contribute so much to society, yet it is too often the case that it is the negative in that person that others will focus on and not the positive. Well, with that being said, I told you that, to tell you this: While I agreed with 98% of what you put forth, I would just caution you to keep in mind that not everyone's symptoms are related to an infection. I got the impression that you held this view and all I would say to this is that it's really not a wise choice for any of us, ( including myself ), to post the belief that everyone's symptoms are infection related. I agree with you 100% that there is a subset of men who most definitely have microorganisms like viruses, fungi and bacteria, being part of their symptomology of CPPS and that these pathogens can and do cause disease, but it's only that, a subset of men. This does not include everyone. There is a whole other group of men that do not fall into this category. Let's strive for the tolerance we ourselves demand from others. Oh, again, overall nice post. Peace out brotha. Signature¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ --- U§ê FIDUCIAL_POWER@HOTMAIL.COM tø rêåch mê --- ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ >"gothika" wrote..... > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > >Oh, again, overall nice post. Peace out brotha. Thanks for the positive post. I agree with you, not all have infections. The human organism is fraught with evolutionary shortcomings and defects. Who in their right mind would design an organism who excreats it's waste materials through it's reproductive organs? I will add that once all is said and figured out many if not most of our conditions will be attributed to infectious organisms. Look at stomach ulcers. Many of the bacteria/viruses that may be discovered to plague us will most likely be ones that have been with us since our evolutionary beginnings. As for the handle Gothika, I've had it for over a decade long before the movie.(Which was quite good btw.) My wife and I do small press gothic publications and gothika was an easy to remember e-mail handle since all the "gothic"s were taken up. > It useless and a waste of time to try and discuss any thing with > someone who's head is stuck inside the "box" of conventional science. > Virtually ALL researchers who made new discoveries were attacked by > the small minds of conventional thought. Those performing conventional science or those not performing conventional science? > To think that our medical science as it stands today has all the > answers can only be the statement of an arrogant mind. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > In fact I'd venture to say that urinalyis is pretty much crap. At > least inregards to the problems of those in this group. The urine test is rubbish? Then what isn't rubbish in your small mind. > Otherwise this group wouldn't in all likelyhood exist. > If urinalysis was infallible and actually caught bacterial infections > them the doctors would be able to prescribe the appropriate abx and > the patient would be cured. Hence most of us wouldn't be here now. I love what you just said. One must know the infection before antibiotics will work. When they use every antibiotic made by those money grabbing companies, not one single one works for your condition, hence you are all here. > Most urine tests test for elevated white blood cells counts. > We now know that there are a whole host of bacteria and viruses that > can infect the human host and won't cause an elevation in WBC's. So you give them antibiotics and they get cured. You got cured when they gave you antibiotics didn't you? > There are also bacteria that only respond to very specific culture > mediums and others who for reasons unknow won't culture in a dish at > all. So they give them antibiotics and they get cured. > All which bring us to the concept of "managed medicine". Or to put it > baldly treatment on the cheap, or worse yet no treatment at all. > If you start counting the costs when treating a patient you may as > well not treat him at all. Exactly, why go to a doctor at all. > I know for a fact that doctors and those in the medical industry don't > skimp on tests or treatment when it comes to THEIR health. > Just when treating the Joe off the street. That's right there was a study showing the medical industry has a higher cure rate for CPPS then the general population. Those in the pharmaceutical industry have the highest cure rate of all. They save there most potent antibotics for family members and not for general use. > THAT'S the real problem with getting our condition treated. > There are those in the medical profession that have the honesty to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > They apply common sense with what therapies are at their disposal to > at least try and give us some relief. You treat infections with antibiotics so what's the problem? It's a simple infection, use antibiotics and it's gone. > My current uro is letting me stay on abx's even though all the usual > tests don't show any sign of bacterial infection. Good for him. Stay on it for a year, then do a PCR and if it's positive then stay on it for two more years. > I certainly evince all the physical symptoms and get relief when I > stay on the abx's long enough. > This would tell anyone with a rational mind that it HAS to be > bacterial. The fact that it only slows down the infections points to > the bug being smarter than the regular "scientific" community is > willing to admit. It is very smart, so smart that only one bacteria not even alive can cause so much pain. > There is nothing so dangerous as someone with a "little" knowledge. > Especially when they can't admit that they don't know everything. [quoted text clipped - 122 lines] > >> research must steadily improve so that one day we'll have answers for a > >> condition that has ruined so many people's lives. >> It useless and a waste of time to try and discuss any thing with >> someone who's head is stuck inside the "box" of conventional science. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Those performing conventional science or those not performing conventional >science? >> To think that our medical science as it stands today has all the >> answers can only be the statement of an arrogant mind. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >So you give them antibiotics and they get cured. You got cured when they >gave you antibiotics didn't you? No, dumbass. We didn't get cured. That's why we are here. It's your simplistic mindset that if one is given antibiotics they must work. Just because a course of antibiotics results in a reduction in of the infection doesn't mean they killed the bacteria completely. Bacteria just like any life form has adaptive survival traits and will use them to fight off any form of treatment you throw at them. >> There are also bacteria that only respond to very specific culture >> mediums and others who for reasons unknow won't culture in a dish at >> all. > >So they give them antibiotics and they get cured. wrong again halfwit. Are you even aware that there are bacteria out there that there is no know antibacterial agent that will work on them? There is a mutated strain of Tuberculosis that is untreatable that has Doctors terrified. It is in effect a super germ with a much higher mortality rate than the earlier strains of TB. Medical science has takent he tact that the only way to treat it is to allow the patient to either develop a resistance to it or die. This is only the tip of the iceberg of infectious bacteria. A regimen of standard antibiotics may reduce some of the symptoms of an infection while doing nothing at all towards killing off the bacteria itself. Cipro is a prime example of this. Medical science doesn't even understand how many antibiotics work just that they do. Cipro also has anti-inflammitory properties, but if you ask a doctor how it works in this manner they'll tell you they have no idea. If you knew anything about the history of antibiotic treatment you'd understand the quandry medicine is now facing. Ever since the inception of penicillin bacteria have been developing mechanisms of defense to fight of the effects of abx's. Medical science in it's arrogance and ignorance thought the perfect solution was to develop stronger abx's. We are now at the point where the bugs are immune to the drugs but because the antibiotics are so potent they now represent a harm to humans. Why do you think so many drugs on the market today have so many toxic side effects? >> All which bring us to the concept of "managed medicine". Or to put it >> baldly treatment on the cheap, or worse yet no treatment at all. >> If you start counting the costs when treating a patient you may as >> well not treat him at all. >Exactly, why go to a doctor at all. No! The answer is to find a doctor who is both caring and doesn't have his head stuck inside the "know it all" box of modern medicine. I had an Doctor of internal medicine many years ago who was also trained in holistic medicine. He combined natural treatment with non invasive medicine and had a much higher success rate with his patients. Giving up is not the answer. >> I know for a fact that doctors and those in the medical industry don't >> skimp on tests or treatment when it comes to THEIR health. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >You treat infections with antibiotics so what's the problem? >It's a simple infection, use antibiotics and it's gone. Wrong again moron. No such thing as a simple infection anymore. How do you think these bacteria survived millions of years against their host organisms immune systems? By being adaptive and staying one step ahead of the hosts immuno response. We only made things worse when we threw simple minded medicine into the mix. As has been discovered micro-organisms can adjust their adaptive repsonse at a more accelerated rate and can come up with different mechanisms to ward off any new treatment. Please go and read a few scientific studies on diseases and their abilities to resist conventional treatment therapies. They are way ahead of us on the learning scale when it comes to survival. >> My current uro is letting me stay on abx's even though all the usual >> tests don't show any sign of bacterial infection. >Good for him. Stay on it for a year, then do a PCR and if it's positive then >stay on it for two more years. For your info I'm now into my 9th year of this disease and have tried every conventional course of treament know to medical science. Used Bactrim for 2 years until it became toxic to my system. The disease came right back on me in a matter of weeks. Then came multiple courses of Cipro with the same results for 3 years. Cipro has caused profound damage to my joints and tendons. I can no longer take it ever again. Then came Levaquin for about a year, until I caused even more damage to my system. Can't take it anymore either. There followed a number of other late generation antibiotics whose names I can't even recall. All gave some reduction in the symptoms but failed to kill the infection outright. We've gone back to Doxycycline because it helps reduce symptoms with only a few bad side effects. When I finally develop allergic reactions to it I'll have run out of options. Since you claim to have such thorough knowledge of medicine you must know about Stevens-Johnson syndrome. It's a fatal allergic reaction to medicine, I and my doctors have to monitor for it constantly. That's what happens when you go on the simplistic way of thinking of just throwing drugs at a problem. There is no quick and easy cure, contrary to what you think. >> I certainly evince all the physical symptoms and get relief when I >> stay on the abx's long enough. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >It is very smart, so smart that only one bacteria not even alive can cause >so much pain. What kind of smartass reply is that? If you're so confident as to be able to make a diagnosis on someone you haven't even met never mind that you probably don't even have a medical degree why don't you come by and I'll let you ingest a bit of my bodily fluids? Couldn't hurt after all since you're convinced that we here don't even HAVE any infections? It'd do me a world of good to see your cockiness evaporate after you start coughing or pissing blood. >> There is nothing so dangerous as someone with a "little" knowledge. >> Especially when they can't admit that they don't know everything. [quoted text clipped - 153 lines] >> >> research must steadily improve so that one day we'll have answers for a >> >> condition that has ruined so many people's lives. "gothika" wrote... > If you're so confident as to be able to make a diagnosis on someone > you haven't even met never mind that you probably don't even have a > medical degree why don't you come by and I'll let you ingest a bit of > my bodily fluids? I mean no disrespect to Gothika, ( I hope you get well soon ), but this is a pretty powerful comment. I must admit, this caught my eye immediately. I'd like to know how many out there with strong views would actually take a challenge like this up? Put your money where your mouth is, is the old saying, isn't it? > Couldn't hurt after all since you're convinced that > we here don't even HAVE any infections? Naw, could never hurt any of them. I am assuming a big mouth like Robert would be the first in line to prove this & further back his partisan views. > It'd do me a world of good to see your cockiness evaporate after you > start coughing or pissing blood. That's a bit mean though. Signature¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ --- U§ê FIDUCIAL_POWER@HOTMAIL.COM tø rêåch mê --- ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > "gothika" wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Naw, could never hurt any of them. I am assuming a big mouth like Robert Sorry, not interested in injesting fluids from somebody with AIDs dementia. > would be the first in line to prove this & further back his partisan views. > > > It'd do me a world of good to see your cockiness evaporate after you > > start coughing or pissing blood. > > That's a bit mean though. >"gothika" wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >That's a bit mean though. Yeah it is. I do have a bit of a short fuse and it does get the best of me. Let me at least explain why I fire off the way I do with clowns like Robert. I spend most of my day balancing class 2 narcotics to fight off pain as well as having to take a whole host of drugs to slow down the degeneration of damaged nerve tissue in my spine and limbs. I'm a disabled vet with severe injury to the spine as well as advanced neuropathic damage to the nerves in my legs and arms. All in all I have to take a daily cocktail of a dozen or so drugs, all of which have bad side effects of their own. I have weekly visits to my local VA hospital where I have to deal with shitheads just like Robert who make life and death descisions about my health care. If I had the money to go elsewhere I'd have found a decent team of doctors a long time ago. Yes I'm fairly sure that my immune system is compromised by the meds from the VA. There's not a thing I can do about it, without them I have convulsions and seisures and pain so great that I crack molars. The urologist at the Va are some of the worst doctors I've ever had to deal with. What with all the crap that my physical health has become I have to up and develop problem with my urinary system. To give you an idea of how crap they are at the VA, they misdiagnosed my UT problem as simply a minor prostate problem for 9 years. They didn't even bother to do an abdomial ultrascan of my bladder until a couple of months ago. It revealed my bladder was located abnormally low in my abdominal cavity, way low in fact and their hacks misdiagnosed it as prostate pain. They use the cheapest equipment and the worst lab tests money can buy, all of which the doctors there admit are highly inconclusive. The had to send my urine to an outside lab for cancer tests all which came back borderline. So they say I don't have cancer.(I had a grandfather and two uncles who died from cancers that started in the bladder and prostate years ago.) They refuse to run any more tests or take tissue samples to rule out cancer tho'. Starting to get the picture? Then I come here to ask for advice from others facing similar problems and I waste more time having to deal with a twit like Robert. Robert's snide attacks and insinuations that I'm a hypocondriac really piss me off. If he can't offer anything of value in our discussions here he really should take a hike. I'm not trying to excuse my bad remarks with my disabilities/condition but I feel I don't have to take any crap at this late stage in my life either. I do apologize to any others here that I've offended but I've always had a habit of speaking plainly. >> Yeah it is. I do have a bit of a short fuse and it does get the best > of me. > Let me at least explain why I fire off the way I do with clowns like > Robert. I am a clown because I said you are full of it when you make statements that everyone should be able to diagnose themselves and be able to medicate themselves. I am the Clown. > I spend most of my day balancing class 2 narcotics to fight off pain > as well as having to take a whole host of drugs to slow down the > degeneration of damaged nerve tissue in my spine and limbs. From the cipro you took and now all the problems you have with antibiotics that could have been avoided had you stopped all antibiotics long ago. Instead of warning people of the dangers of antibiotics you tell them to take more because of their phantom infections. I am the clown. > I'm a disabled vet with severe injury to the spine as well as advanced > neuropathic damage to the nerves in my legs and arms. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > shitheads just like Robert who make life and death descisions about my > health care I don't make life and death decisions and not involved in health care. . If I had the money to go elsewhere I'd have found a > decent team of doctors a long time ago. You can go to Canada. > Yes I'm fairly sure that my immune system is compromised by the meds > from the VA. There's not a thing I can do about it, without them I > have convulsions and seisures and pain so great that I crack molars. > The urologist at the Va are some of the worst doctors I've ever had to > deal with. Canadian doctors are coming here by the truck load. They would die to work< |
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