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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / August 2006

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Delayed Interventions

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George Conklin - 16 Aug 2006 00:02 GMT
With news reports out that the Journal of the National Cancer Institute has
found that delayed intervention for prostate cancer is better than
overtreatment, links to the August 16 journal site require you to PAY for
the article.  Has anyone posting here paid or has a university subscription
to the journal?  What about some details?  News reports are pretty bad on
the details.
George Conklin - 16 Aug 2006 00:18 GMT
> With news reports out that the Journal of the National Cancer Institute has
> found that delayed intervention for prostate cancer is better than
> overtreatment, links to the August 16 journal site require you to PAY for
> the article.  Has anyone posting here paid or has a university subscription
> to the journal?  What about some details?  News reports are pretty bad on
> the details.

By the way, I just found out it costs $28 to view the article for 24 hours.
Since authors don't get paid to write these things, I find this a good
reason why government needs to stop supporting research the journals then
get paid big bucks for even letting your read the tax-supported results.  It
is a shame and a sham.  Let us hope Oxford Press and the others go out of
business shortly with open access journals.
Leonard Evens - 18 Aug 2006 17:35 GMT
> With news reports out that the Journal of the National Cancer Institute has
> found that delayed intervention for prostate cancer is better than
> overtreatment, links to the August 16 journal site require you to PAY for
> the article.  Has anyone posting here paid or has a university subscription
> to the journal?  What about some details?  News reports are pretty bad on
> the details.

I tried accessing it through Northwestern, but they don't have anything
from that Journal newer than February.

I found the abstract using Medline/Pubmed and it says the following

--------------------------------------------------------------------

BACKGROUND: The frequently indolent nature of early-stage prostate
cancer in older men and in men with low- or moderate-grade tumors and
the demonstration that the survival benefits of radical prostatectomy
are primarily among men younger than 65 years have led to concerns about
prostate cancer overtreatment. METHODS: Using data from 13 Surveillance,
Epidemiology, and End Results registries, we performed a retrospective
cohort study of 71,602 men who were diagnosed with localized or regional
prostate cancer between 2000 and 2002. We quantified the incidence of
initial curative therapy (i.e., surgery or radiation therapy) among men
with lower-risk cancers as defined by their limited likelihood of either
dying from expectantly managed prostate cancer or achieving a survival
benefit from local therapy. Stratified analyses and multinomial logistic
regression models were used to quantify the absolute and relative rates
of curative therapy among men in various age-grade strata. All
statistical tests were two-sided. RESULTS: We identified 24,405 men with
lower-risk prostate cancers and complete data for the first course of
treatment. Initial curative therapy was undertaken in 13,537 of these
men (55%); 81% of treated men received radiation therapy. The likelihood
of curative therapy, relative to expectant management, varied
statistically significantly among lower-risk age-grade strata (all
P<.05). Assuming that initial expectant management is appropriate for
all lower-risk cancers, 2564 men (10%) in this population-based sample
were overtreated with radical prostatectomy and 10,973 (45%) with
radiation therapy. CONCLUSIONS: These data quantify a target population
for whom greater use of expectant approaches may reduce overtreatment
and improve the quality of localized prostate cancer care.

-------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, they identified a large number of 'low risk' cases
diagnosed between 2002 and 2006.  They don't give a definition in the
abstract of 'low risk'.   Also, since it is much to soon to know what
actually will happen to these men, they did not report observed data on
results.  (Keep in mind that for truly low risk prostate cancer
patients, the likelihood of dying of the disease within 5 years is
essentially zero.)  So they relied on some models of what might be
expected in such cases, and assuming also that expectant management was
an appropriate choice for all of them, tried to estimate the degree of
overtreatment.

As best I can see, this is all highly conjectural.  For older men today,
competent urologists don't by and large overtreat low risk cancers.  We
also know that some low risk younger men will never be troubled by their
cancers during their lifetimes, so there is definitely some degree of
overtreatment.   But the actual real data about this is murky.  It seems
to me that this study is trying to quantify that by analyzing existing
data, but without any new data, the results are bound to be open to
question.   But I would really like to look at the article to see just
what they say.
George Conklin - 18 Aug 2006 19:15 GMT
> > With news reports out that the Journal of the National Cancer Institute has
> > found that delayed intervention for prostate cancer is better than
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> diagnosed between 2002 and 2006.  They don't give a definition in the
> abstract of 'low risk'.

   I got the entire article and read it.  They do define risk in the
article.

Also, since it is much to soon to know what
> actually will happen to these men, they did not report observed data on
> results.

   This has been the problem with all prostate cancer research:  long-term
results with some kind  of control group.

(Keep in mind that for truly low risk prostate cancer
> patients, the likelihood of dying of the disease within 5 years is
> essentially zero.)  So they relied on some models of what might be
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> As best I can see, this is all highly conjectural.  For older men today,
> competent urologists don't by and large overtreat low risk cancers.

   The article states the opposite, since most low-risk cancers ARE
treated.
Leonard Evens - 18 Aug 2006 21:48 GMT
>>>With news reports out that the Journal of the National Cancer Institute
>
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>     This has been the problem with all prostate cancer research:  long-term
> results with some kind  of control group.

Well there is the Swedish study of Holmberg, et. al.   But I agree that
it may not be applicable to the US context.

>  (Keep in mind that for truly low risk prostate cancer
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>     The article states the opposite, since most low-risk cancers ARE
> treated.

How did you get the article?  I would like to see the figures.
According to experts like Walsh and Scardino, such patients should not
ordinarily be treated, and the urological society's guidelines clearly
don't encourage it.   In particular, aggressive treatment to cure such
cancers should be reserved for men with at least a 10 year life
expectancy.  Scardino does say that men with more aggressive tumors
should probbly be treated even if their life expectancy is about 5
years, but that is another matter.  I think the issue there is
maintaining quality of life, not necessarily expecting a cure.
George Conklin - 19 Aug 2006 01:04 GMT
> >>>With news reports out that the Journal of the National Cancer Institute
> >
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
> Well there is the Swedish study of Holmberg, et. al.   But I agree that
> it may not be applicable to the US context.

 I read that too.  Clinical studies often do not pan out in the larger
population with average-style medicine.  But even then, the PIVOT studies
from the USA are not out yet and have (so far) nothing to report.  But the
Swedish study suggests that after more than 10 years a 3% difference in
mortality...very little.

> >  (Keep in mind that for truly low risk prostate cancer
> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> How did you get the article?  I would like to see the figures.

   We have full rights to local libraries at with the Triangle interlibrary
system.

> According to experts like Walsh and Scardino, such patients should not
> ordinarily be treated, and the urological society's guidelines clearly
> don't encourage it.

  Usually everyone is treated, on the average.  The article shows a strong
cultural bias towards treatment under all circumstances.  Actually it is
intereting reading.

In particular, aggressive treatment to cure such
> cancers should be reserved for men with at least a 10 year life
> expectancy.  Scardino does say that men with more aggressive tumors
> should probbly be treated even if their life expectancy is about 5
> years, but that is another matter.

  There is a cite in the article that those with the most aggressive tumors
get more benefit, maybe.  If you read all the cites, you might as well take
out a seat at a medical library and spend a few days.

I think the issue there is
> maintaining quality of life, not necessarily expecting a cure.

   You really should read the article.  I checked with a friend at Duke who
does such research tonight and he told me that some of the details of
government-funded research and where it is located.  Original unedited
manuscripts are not considered copyrighted and MUST be placed on an
open-source site.  I don't know about this article.  What with .pdf files
these days, even if a medical library stops paying fees, they lose access.
In the old days, the old journals did not disappear from the shelves if a
new subscription was not entered.  Public libraries will disappear under the
new systems unless great care is taken.  In the meantime, the web site
charges $28 to view the article for which the authors receive nothing and
the publisher gets it all, and government pays for the research.  It is a
very BAD system.  There are open access journals now, about 2,000 of them,
and it may increase in the future.  Sweden has the DOAJ and I of course am a
member of that and even EBSCO has picked us up.  But of course we are not
medical.....
Ed Friedman - 18 Aug 2006 18:22 GMT
> With news reports out that the Journal of the National Cancer Institute has
> found that delayed intervention for prostate cancer is better than
> overtreatment, links to the August 16 journal site require you to PAY for
> the article.  Has anyone posting here paid or has a university subscription
> to the journal?  What about some details?  News reports are pretty bad on
> the details.

George,

I have the complete article.  What questions would you like answered?

The thing that struck me in the article is that they cited another
article which showed a significant drop in latent cases of prostate
cancer (PCa) discovered at autopsy since the introduction of PSA
testing.  The implication is that less people are dying with latent PCa
because they are receiving early localized treatment.  This would mean
that people who never would have died of PCa are going to show up as
being "cured" by early localized treatment.

The study itself looked at over 70,000 men and concluded that over
13,000 of them were potentially "overtreated".

Ed Friedman
George Conklin - 18 Aug 2006 19:19 GMT
> > With news reports out that the Journal of the National Cancer Institute has
> > found that delayed intervention for prostate cancer is better than
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I have the complete article.  What questions would you like answered?

Actually I got the compete article also just yesterday.

> The thing that struck me in the article is that they cited another
> article which showed a significant drop in latent cases of prostate
> cancer (PCa) discovered at autopsy since the introduction of PSA
> testing.

  That cited 3 sources in the first two lines.  Correlations of PSA
screening and mortaity merely documents the long life-expectancy in general,
not the cause and effect of PSA screening.  "An ecologic study of
prostate-specific antigen screening and prostate cancer mortality...."
simply says the life in general has been going up in the last 20 years so
some diseases, by definition, are having lower rates reported.
Leonard Evens - 18 Aug 2006 21:41 GMT
>> With news reports out that the Journal of the National Cancer
>> Institute has
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> that people who never would have died of PCa are going to show up as
> being "cured" by early localized treatment.

Interesting.   If you treat everyone who shows clinical evidence of
prostate cancer, you will remove a certain number of men from the pool
of men who otherwise would show cancer on autopsy.  In principle that
would allow you to estimate the percentage of cases which could forego
treatment without any effect.   But I do have some questions about that.
 First, autopsy studies have in the past shown a wide range of results,
so you would have to be sure that the effect wasn't just in the normal
range of variation.   Second, on autopsy, it should be easy to
distinguish clearly insignificant cancers from those which could be
detected clinically.  It seems to me that it is only those that should
be counted in making the estimate.  In other words, only cancers above a
certain size and showing a Gleason grade of at least 5 should be
counted.   Men with too small to be detected clinically and even small
low grade cancers are not treated these days.  I'm not sure any one
autopsy study would collect enough data to be definitive about this.

Can you give a reference to the autopsy study article?

> The study itself looked at over 70,000 men and concluded that over
> 13,000 of them were potentially "overtreated".

If I understood the abstract, the men looked at were all classified as
'low risk'.  So for example, because I had a Gleason 7 cancer, I would
not be included.   But 13/70 is about 18 percent, which seems consistent
with other studies I've seen.   Still, I think there is an element of
trying to extract more from the data than is present.   I would not be
surprised if the incidence of overtreatment of such 'low risk' cases was
either much lower or much higher.   Personally,  I doubt that it is over
50 percent, but  I have no evidence one way or another.

The problem as always is how do you distinguish those needing treatment
from those that don't.  There is some progress being made in this area,
but it is very slow.

> Ed Friedman
George Conklin - 19 Aug 2006 00:54 GMT
> >> With news reports out that the Journal of the National Cancer
> >> Institute has
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> certain size and showing a Gleason grade of at least 5 should be
> counted.

   Oh come on.  Those are also being treated when discovered by PSA.  That
is the point of the whole article.
Leonard Evens - 18 Aug 2006 21:50 GMT
>> With news reports out that the Journal of the National Cancer
>> Institute has
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Ed Friedman

Can you tell me how you got the article?   I very much want to read it.
George Conklin - 19 Aug 2006 00:55 GMT
> >> With news reports out that the Journal of the National Cancer
> >> Institute has
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Can you tell me how you got the article?   I very much want to read it.

You can pay $28 and get it from the web site of the Journal of the National
Cancer Institute.  Or, you can probably get a hard copy at your library or
get behind the firewall at your local medical school.
 
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