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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / July 2006

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prostate biopsy: Yes or not?

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moniess@gmail.com - 02 Jul 2006 20:55 GMT
Prostate biopsy can distinguish cancer from non-cancer just when they
puncture the cancer. However, statistics show that for any reason most
biopsies do not puncture cancer.

This experiment shows what happens to the prostate with the biopsy:

You will need:

- A long needle or similar device
- Two apples (or pears, or oranges), similar size and color
- A knife

a- Dig the needle into some soil. This makes conditions similar to the
rectum contamination in spite of antibiotics
b- Puncture ten times one of the fruits in different angles and
starting in a surface less than 2 square centimeters. Move the needle
back and forth two times for each puncture. That is like the prostate
biopsy is performed.
c- Do nothing to the other fruit
d- Leave both fruits alone for 10 or more days
e- Now, cut both fruits doing parallel cuts. Compare both fruits. The
same happens with the prostate biopsy.

If for any change the punctured fruit had a worm (analogy between
cancer and worm) and the worm was punctured, you will find worm's
tissues seeding through the needle track. The chances they puncture a
worm are almost the same they puncture a cancer.

On my side, I stopped doing biopsies. Other physicians have different
points of view. Anyway, patients will finally decide :)

Gonzalo Díaz M.D. Sonologist http://drGdiaz.com
Steve Jordan - 02 Jul 2006 21:22 GMT
On July 2, a Dr. Diaz wrote, in pertinent part:
> Prostate biopsy can distinguish cancer from non-cancer just when they
> puncture the cancer. However, statistics show that for any reason most
> biopsies do not puncture cancer.
>  
It would be helpful if Dr. Diaz would cite his source for that last
sentence.

(Snip irrelevant scenario. Ever heard of Cipro? And pre-op enemas?)
> On my side, I stopped doing biopsies. Other physicians have different
> points of view. Anyway, patients will finally decide :)
>  
If Dr. Diaz declines to perform biopsies (presumably when PSA and DRE
have suspicious results) he in effect declines to examine his patients
for evidence of prostate cancer (PCa), since the biopsy is the only
proven means of detecting the disease. This is malpractice and I pity
his patients.

But perhaps it's just as well, since a "Sonographer" does not sound like
the sort of medical specialist I'd want performing a biopsy on me.

And patients will decide *only if* they are educated and empowered.

Regards,

Steve J

"'MD' does not mean 'Medical Deity.'"
-- Stephen B. Strum, MD
drgdiaz.com - 03 Jul 2006 02:15 GMT
Here is an example:

"Thursday, 30 May 2002
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - In men with elevated prostate-specific
antigen (PSA) levels or a suspicious digital rectal examination
finding, nearly 1 in 4 prostate cancers are not detected on initial
biopsy, according to a report published in the June issue of The
Journal of Urology. NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - In men with elevated
prostate-specific antigen (PSA) levels or a suspicious digital rectal
examination finding, nearly 1 in 4 prostate cancers are not detected on
initial biopsy, according to a report published in the June issue of
The Journal of Urology.

In this population, at least four serial biopsies are required to
detect almost all of the cancers present, study author Dr. Kimberly A.
Roehl and colleagues, from Washington University in St. Louis, note.
Still, the optimal number of biopsies is unclear and whether obtaining
more biopsy cores could obviate the need for repeat biopsies is
unknown. ... etc ..... "

There are many studies about it. Besides, it is a fact that inflamatory
reactions might lead to cancer development and all prostate biopsies
cause inflamatory reactions (you can verify it) . And the patients must
be warned about prostate biopsy risks

Infections: septicemia (sepsis), hepatitis, AIDS, urinary infections

Hematuria: blood in the urine

Urine retention: obstruction because of inflammatory activity

Hematochezia: blood during bowel movement

Hematospermia: blood in the semen

Arteriovenus Fistula

Needle track seeding: implantation of malignant cells

These are just scientific facts (Please do not feel offended ;) )  that
can be verified for instance reading the "Ultrasound of the prostate,
2nd Edition, Matthew D. Rifkin"

Kindest Regards,

Gonzalo Diaz MD Sonologist http://drGdiaz.com

PS BTW: sonographers and sonologists are different -this can be
verified, too ;)

> On July 2, a Dr. Diaz wrote, in pertinent part:
> > Prostate biopsy can distinguish cancer from non-cancer just when they
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> "'MD' does not mean 'Medical Deity.'"
> -- Stephen B. Strum, MD
Steve Jordan - 04 Jul 2006 22:11 GMT
On July 2, drgdiaz.com replied to me:
> Here is an example:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> The Journal of Urology.
>  
In the post to which I replied upthread, Dr. Diaz wrote

> ....statistics show that for any reason *most* biopsies do not puncture cancer.
(Emphasis added)

I don't consider Reuters Health to be a medical publication, though I
will concede that it seems to be rather more reliable than many other
lay publications.

And less than one in four is not "most."

(snip)
> There are many studies about it. Besides, it is a fact that inflamatory
> reactions might lead to cancer development and all prostate biopsies
> cause inflamatory reactions (you can verify it) . And the patients must
> be warned about prostate biopsy risks
>  
Unproven that such studies support Dr. Diaz' position, true, maybe true,
true and true.

(snip list of every possible adverse event, however unlikely and/or
trivial they are)
> Needle track seeding: implantation of malignant cells
>  
I understand that PCa cells cannot survive outside the gland environment
unless they have mutated. I also understand that there is no clinical
evidence that PCa has in fact been spread in the manner described. If
Dr. Diaz disagrees, I'd appreciate citation to a peer-reviewed clinical
study that supports his viewpoint. Not someone's book, a clinical study.
> Gonzalo Diaz MD Sonologist
>
> PS BTW: sonographers and sonologists are different.......
>  
Quite so. My error and I apologize.

Regards,

Steve J

"What are the facts? Again and again and again -- what are the facts?
Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget 'what the stars
foretell,' avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind
the unguessable 'verdict of history' -- what are the facts, and to how
many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are
your single clue. Get the facts!"
--Lazarus Long
ralphv_in_az@yahoo.com - 04 Jul 2006 18:50 GMT
Dr. Diaz,
How do you diagnose prostate cancer? Are you saying that is better left
undiagnosed?Or are you saying that CDUS is such an effective tool that
you can diagnose cancer without using a biopsy gun? The possibility of
tracking cancer cells along needle tracks applies to all needle
biopsies for all other cancers. For a cancer cell to survive outside
its environment it has to have metastatic potential characteristics.

If your hypothesis is correct a 100% of biopsis that find cancer would
seed the cancer outside the gland. Obviously this is not happening, but
is a low risk possibility. In the mean time 30,000 men die of PCa in
this country. The mortality rate for the disease continues to slowly
drop. If seeding along the biopsy needle tracks was an issue, this
would never occur.

Very descriptive example with the fruits and bacterial contamination,
This also is not a 100% occurence either. Preventive measures take
effect and many of us do not experience infections after the biopsy.

RalphV
azustoo.org
> Prostate biopsy can distinguish cancer from non-cancer just when they
> puncture the cancer. However, statistics show that for any reason most
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Gonzalo Díaz M.D. Sonologist http://drGdiaz.com
George Conklin - 04 Jul 2006 22:39 GMT
In the mean time 30,000 men die of PCa in
this country. The mortality rate for the disease continues to slowly
drop. If seeding along the biopsy needle tracks was an issue, this
would never occur.

 This last comment is nonsense.  As life expectancy gradually increases,
the death rates for known diseases will drop slowly too.  To assume that
surgery is the cause of extending life expectancies is in general incorrect,
since some nations do not test asymptomatic men anyway and life expectancy
is going up in the industrialized world too.
ralphv_in_az@yahoo.com - 04 Jul 2006 23:06 GMT
George you are wrong on both counts! Since PCa death rates are much
higher at more advanced age, it is a fact that with extended life
expectancies in males, more deaths should be expected. The opposite is
happening here. The slower death rate is more related to early
detection AND better outcomes with localized treatments for earlier
disease.

Since you last checked, surgery has been shown to improve PCa's
disease-specific survival along with overall survival in a randomized
trial as compared to WW. I say that your comments as usual are far
off...and in spite of all these years have not changed much.

Source:
Bill-Axelson A, Holmberg L, Ruutu M, et al. Radical prostatectomy
versus watchful waiting in early prostate cancer. N Engl J Med.
2005;352:1977-1984.

> In the mean time 30,000 men die of PCa in
> this country. The mortality rate for the disease continues to slowly
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> since some nations do not test asymptomatic men anyway and life expectancy
> is going up in the industrialized world too.
George Conklin - 05 Jul 2006 01:27 GMT
> George you are wrong on both counts! Since PCa death rates are much
> higher at more advanced age, it is a fact that with extended life
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> > since some nations do not test asymptomatic men anyway and life expectancy
> > is going up in the industrialized world too.
George Conklin - 05 Jul 2006 01:32 GMT
> George you are wrong on both counts! Since PCa death rates are much
> higher at more advanced age, it is a fact that with extended life
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> versus watchful waiting in early prostate cancer. N Engl J Med.
> 2005;352:1977-1984.

 You ignornace is showing up once again.  The fact that life expectancy is
going up in industrialized nations is not due to the survival of 3% of
prostate cancer non-survivors after 10 years for a short period of time.
The gradual decline of mortality rates for nations as a whole is not
affected by what you post...it could not even be detected.  But as life
expectancy goes up, disease death rates have to decline.  You also don't
know the difference between age-specific rates and overall rates either.
Nor do you bother to notice that many nations do NOT test non-symptomatic
men for prostate cancer, but also have longer life expetancies.  I suggest
you get a good book on life tables for a start and maybe even read the
article you cite.
ralphv_in_az@yahoo.com - 05 Jul 2006 12:49 GMT
Interesting!. We are talking about prostate cancer, the effect of
seeding PCa cells by prostate cancer biopsy, prostate cancer surgery
and disease-specific survival here. Get it?  Gee George, who is on
first? Here you go again changing topic...and being abusive. As in the
past you go on a tangent and address generalities. George, please
concentrate. We are talking prostate cancer. You show me that you have
not read the full reference that was provided...Come back when you do!

>   You ignornace is showing up once again.  The fact that life expectancy is
> going up in industrialized nations is not due to the survival of 3% of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> you get a good book on life tables for a start and maybe even read the
> article you cite.
Leonard Evens - 05 Jul 2006 16:21 GMT
> George you are wrong on both counts! Since PCa death rates are much
> higher at more advanced age, it is a fact that with extended life
> expectancies in males, more deaths should be expected. The opposite is
> happening here. The slower death rate is more related to early
> detection AND better outcomes with localized treatments for earlier
> disease.

The issue is whether or not declining mortality due to prostate cancer
provides contrary evidence to the assertion that biopsy in itself
increases the risk of metastatic prostate cancer.

George's argument, I agree, seems strange.   It is almost as if he is
arguing that a decline in overall mortality causes a decline in
mortality due to specific diseases, e.g., prostate cancer, rather than
vice versa.   It is very hard to see how one could determine the truth
of such an assertion.  There could be indirect ways that might happen,
but I don't see how you could separate out the factors specific to
prostate cancer, such as early detection and better methods of treatment
from such unspecified other effects.

But let's get back to the original question.  Death rates due to
prostate cancer definitely declined in the US after the introduction of
PSA screening.  I haven't been able to find comparable data for other
countries,  but Walsh does maintain that this didn't happen to the same
degree in Sweden, where PSA screening has not been common.  Suppose that
is the case.  Can we now say that the risk of a biopsy causing
metastatic prostate cancer is negligible on the basis of this evidence.
 I think not because the PSA screening, by leading to earlier treatment
of prostate cancer may reduce the risk of metastatic prostate cancer
more than a biopsy increases it.  Indeed many people believe that early
screening and treatment do signficantly reduce the risk of metastatic
prostate cancer, and a lot of preliminery evidence supports it.   But it
is still possible to doubt it without being intellectualy bankrupt.  In
any case, the best we can say is that the whole process, including PSA
testing, biopsy where indicated, and early treatment, reduces the risk
of metastatic prostate cancer.  It could be that there is still some
significant risk of biopsy resulting in metastatic prostate cancer but
that this is more than counterbalanced by the other factors which reduce
that risk.

On the other hand, if it is true that early detection and treatment have
no signmificant effect on outcome, as George appears to believe, then
your argument is inevitable.   In that case, metastatic cancer rates
should go up in screened populations compared to unscreened populations
if it is true that biopsies signifcantly increase the risk of metastatic
cancer.   As best I can tell, no study has indicated such an increased
risk of metastatic prostate cancer in a screened population.

It would be nice if someone came up with a clear definitive study which
could isolate the different factors and tell use clearly what the risk
of metastatic prostate cancer from biopsy really is, and how it depends
on a variety of factors.   But it is not clear to me how you could do
such a study in the real world with real patients.  Clearly few medical
experts think this is a serious risk on the basis of what they know, and
I at least am not going to try to second guess them.

> Since you last checked, surgery has been shown to improve PCa's
> disease-specific survival along with overall survival in a randomized
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> versus watchful waiting in early prostate cancer. N Engl J Med.
> 2005;352:1977-1984.

The Homlberg, et. al. studies do appear to show in the Swedish context
that radical prostatectomy reduces the risk of prostate cancer mortality
and the risk of metastatic cancer when  compared to WW followed by
hormone therapy when needed.   But since prostate cancer is not usually
discovered through PSA screening in Sweden, this wouldn't seem to bear
on the issue of whether biopsy by itself increases the risk.  All the
men in the Holmberg study persumably had biopsies.

P.S.  I just did a Medline search the risks of prostate biopsy and found
nothing within recent years suggesting an increased risk of metastatic
prostate cancer from biopsy.  I had previously found one or two reports
of cancer cells being found along the biopsy track, but that is not the
same as an increased risk of metstatic cancer because of reasons given
previously.  There was also a report of metastatic prostate cancer
having been transmitted through a heart transplant, but transplant
patients are subjected to strong immune suppressant drugs.   So that
raises the possiblity that people with severe immune definciency might
develop metastatic prostate cancer because some cells escape in a biopsy
and later become metastatic.  Prostate cancer for such people is
probably not at the top of their list of concerns.
ralphv_in_az@yahoo.com - 05 Jul 2006 19:22 GMT
Well done Leonard. The Holmberg study was mentioned as an opposing view
to George's statement that surgery did not improve survival when we all
know it did and he continues to negate...
> > George you are wrong on both counts! Since PCa death rates are much
> > higher at more advanced age, it is a fact that with extended life
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
> and later become metastatic.  Prostate cancer for such people is
> probably not at the top of their list of concerns.
Leonard Evens - 04 Jul 2006 23:21 GMT
> In the mean time 30,000 men die of PCa in
> this country. The mortality rate for the disease continues to slowly
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> since some nations do not test asymptomatic men anyway and life expectancy
> is going up in the industrialized world too.

The issue was prostate cancer mortality, not general mortality.
George Conklin - 05 Jul 2006 01:34 GMT
> > In the mean time 30,000 men die of PCa in
> > this country. The mortality rate for the disease continues to slowly
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> The issue was prostate cancer mortality, not general mortality.

 As general mortality goes down,  disease-specific mortality must decline
too.  Prostate cancer is just one type of mortality.
 
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