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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / June 2006

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newbe needing info.please.

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JG - 07 May 2006 20:56 GMT
I’m 59 smoked from age 12 until 2001 in good health except for lower back
problems last 10 years had a history of kidney stones (3) over the last 40
years. The last one 2 years ago needed to be removed by ultrasound. They
also found a mucus tumor, which they removed in the bladder it was tested to
be okay.

4 years ago I was told I had enlarged prostate. Since Nov. 2005 been doing
more work around the house to get my weight down from 200. In Feb started
losing weight.

Had a physical done in Feb. and my PSA was slightly elevated 4.5 Doc said
not to worry.

Last Sunday I was picking up two large rocks in the yard then monday morning
woke up to lower back pain took 2 Aleve’s then painted a shed. About 4 hours
later I need to take a leak. It was like the old days good flow except it
was cola color from the start to the end.

I didn’t feel like I passed a stone no blood clots. Half hr later I need to
go again this time yellow urine with a thin streak of red blood towards the
end. Since last Monday I haven’t seen any more blood. I called the Doctor
office.

They told me to go to the ER. I told the Doc what happen.

He did a rectal exam said that was okay. Did a blood test and urine test.

Then a CT with contrast and a chest x-ray with dye.

He came in the room told me he thinks I have advance prostate cancer and it
spread to my bladder as they saw a lesion via the CT report.

He then asked if I had an urologist I said no. So he called one that was on
duty and made appointment for 9am the next day. I had to give more urine and
the Doc asked me questions. He then asked if I passed a stone. I just said I
don’t know. He wants to look inside my track and will be back from his
vacation on May 25th. then do it.

I have lost more weight in the pass week before the blood loss I was 179 now
174-maybe nerves. All I think about is the ER doctors report to me. So my
question is

Is this ER doctor really able to tell if I have cancer by a CT?

I should have asked the Urologist but didn’t.Waiting is killing me.

Thanks

Jeff
Jacob Johnson - 07 May 2006 21:49 GMT
I’m 59 smoked from age 12 until 2001 in good health except for lower back
problems last 10 years had a history of kidney stones (3) over the last 40
years. The last one 2 years ago needed to be removed by ultrasound. They
also found a mucus tumor, which they removed in the bladder it was tested to
be okay.

4 years ago I was told I had enlarged prostate. Since Nov. 2005 been doing
more work around the house to get my weight down from 200. In Feb started
losing weight.

Had a physical done in Feb. and my PSA was slightly elevated 4.5 Doc said
not to worry.

Last Sunday I was picking up two large rocks in the yard then monday morning
woke up to lower back pain took 2 Aleve’s then painted a shed. About 4 hours
later I need to take a leak. It was like the old days good flow except it
was cola color from the start to the end.

I didn’t feel like I passed a stone no blood clots. Half hr later I need to
go again this time yellow urine with a thin streak of red blood towards the
end. Since last Monday I haven’t seen any more blood. I called the Doctor
office.

They told me to go to the ER. I told the Doc what happen.

He did a rectal exam said that was okay. Did a blood test and urine test.

Then a CT with contrast and a chest x-ray with dye.

He came in the room told me he thinks I have advance prostate cancer and it
spread to my bladder as they saw a lesion via the CT report.

He then asked if I had an urologist I said no. So he called one that was on
duty and made appointment for 9am the next day. I had to give more urine and
the Doc asked me questions. He then asked if I passed a stone. I just said I
don’t know. He wants to look inside my track and will be back from his
vacation on May 25th. then do it.

I have lost more weight in the pass week before the blood loss I was 179 now
174-maybe nerves. All I think about is the ER doctors report to me. So my
question is

Is this ER doctor really able to tell if I have cancer by a CT?

I should have asked the Urologist but didn’t.Waiting is killing me.



 Thanks

Jeff

Jeff,
I know that you are worried. I am not a doctor but I have had some serious
health problems so I know a little about what you are going through. The
only
thing you can do is to wait for the urologist to conduct more tests to
determine the source of the problem. It's my guess that the ER doctor was
making a guess based upon the results of the CT scan. As far as I know,
it's impossible to determine whether or not a person has or does not have
cancer based upon the results of a CT scan. The best thing that you should
do is to just wait until
the urologist returns from the vacation and to make a list of the
questions that you have and make sure the urologist answers those
questions. My niece has a tumor in her breast. She asked the doctor
whether or not she had breast cancer. The doctor told her that it was
impossible to determine whether or not she had breast cancer based on the
scan. He said the only way to know whether she did or did not have cancer
was to to a biopsy. Do you see my point?
Jason
JG - 07 May 2006 22:09 GMT
Jason,
Thanks for the reply.
I didn't think seeing a CT scan report would be 100%.
Yes I see the point will get a list going.
Thanks
Jeff

> I'm 59 smoked from age 12 until 2001 in good health except for lower back
> problems last 10 years had a history of kidney stones (3) over the last 40
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
> was to to a biopsy. Do you see my point?
> Jason
Jacob Johnson - 08 May 2006 00:29 GMT
Jason,
Thanks for the reply.
I didn't think seeing a CT scan report would be 100%.
Yes I see the point will get a list going.
Thanks
Jeff

Jeff,
You are welcome. I wish you well. It's my guess that
the uro. will do a biopsy. That's the best method for
determining whether or not a person has cancer.
Jason




"Jacob Johnson" <jacob@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jacob-0705061349490001@66-52-22-87.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
> In article <125sk7us2nkp159@corp.supernews.com>, "JG"
> <jlgs1947@hotmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
> was to to a biopsy. Do you see my point?
> Jason
Steve Jordan - 07 May 2006 21:51 GMT
On May 7, Jeff wrote:

(snip)
> 4 years ago I was told I had enlarged prostate.
What size (grams, cc's)? This is important because the
generally-accepted upper limit of normal PSA is 2.5 ng/mL. The outdated
standard was 4.0. For a medic (what, exactly, is his specialty?) to say
in February of 2006 in the USA that 4.5 is "slightly elevated" is simply
wrong and suggests that this medic is not familiar with PCa (prostate
cancer) standards of diagnosis (dx).

However, an enlarged prostate will express more PSA than a normal-size
one. Moreover, an elevated PSA could be caused by other factors such as
infection or prostatitis, or stressing the prostate by recent sexual
activity, a DRE (digital rectal examination), even bicycle riding within
a few days prior to the blood draw.

Did the medic prescribe a course of an antibiotic such as Cipro to
combat possible infection, then a repeat PSA test in about a month? I'll
bet he didn't.

(snip)
> Last Sunday I was picking up two large rocks in the yard then monday morning
> woke up to lower back pain took 2 Aleve’s then painted a shed. About 4 hours
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Is this ER doctor really able to tell if I have cancer by a CT?
>  
I believe that the short answer is a categorical NO. But I'm no medic.

The most common means of detecting PCa is via a biopsy.
> I should have asked the Urologist but didn’t.Waiting is killing me.
>  
Where is it written that Jeff must wait in an agony of suspense until
the uro returns from vacation? Consult another. Ask about his experience
with PCa.

Get all records. All. So they can be shown to the medic. Keep the
records in a file. They are priceless. A patient has a right to obtain
copies of all medical records.

Jeff's job is to empower himself so he can intelligently participate in
the process. An excellent start is the objective and authoritative
website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute. Basics are found at:
http://prostate-cancer.org/education/education.html#basics_of_pc

Good luck. Please advise how it goes.

Regards,

Steve J

"What are the facts? Again and again and again -- what are the facts?
Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget 'what the stars
foretell,' avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind
the unguessable 'verdict of history' -- what are the facts, and to how
many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are
your single clue. Get the facts!"
--Lazarus Long
JG - 07 May 2006 22:17 GMT
Steve,
Never found out the size as I didn't know it made a difference. (Feb 2006)
He's my General practitioner. He did say  the increase in PSA could be from
the rectal exam as the blood test was the next day.
Both of you have given me good advice
Thanks
Jeff
> On May 7, Jeff wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
> your single clue. Get the facts!"
> --Lazarus Long
JG - 07 May 2006 22:53 GMT
Steve,

Forgot to say.
The blood work done in Feb 2006 was okay.
Aslo If I remember correctly the ER doc said the blood work was okay too.
Jeff

> On May 7, Jeff wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
> your single clue. Get the facts!"
> --Lazarus Long
JG - 26 May 2006 05:02 GMT
Went back to the Doc today.He said I have enlarged prostate and my psa was
at 2.9 He did find a reading that showed some abnormal activity can't
remember if its the blood or urine test.
He looked into the bladder and saw a small tumor above the prostate. So on
the 5th of June he will remove it. He won't know until then if the tumor has
attached to the prostate if so he says he will need to scrape parts of the
gland away.
He says my urination problem is due to the pressure of tumor on the urethra
as it's next to it.
So I hope it turns out like the last one...
I want to thank you guys for the support.

Jeff

> On May 7, Jeff wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
> your single clue. Get the facts!"
> --Lazarus Long
JG - 14 Jun 2006 21:42 GMT
Update:
June 5th he did a biopsy he needed to shave off part of the prostate to get
to the tumor which is located at the bladder neck.
in do so he sent in two biopsy one of the prostate shavings and the other in
his words a mixer of tissue from the bladder tumor.
The tumor was 3 cm.
The biopsy report came back with them scratching their heads as to what is
there.
What they see is cancer in the lining of the prostate and the tumor in the
bladder is cancer too.
They can't tell where the cancer started and will send both biopsy to the
U.O.W. for a second opinion.
Looks like I'm going to be treated at the UW hospital for removal of
Prostate,Bladder and the urethra tube.
While  I'm waiting for the UW this friday he has me in for a lung x ray and
a bone scan.
Scared you bet wasn't ready for losing all three at the same time.

Jeff

> Went back to the Doc today.He said I have enlarged prostate and my psa was
> at 2.9 He did find a reading that showed some abnormal activity can't
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
>> your single clue. Get the facts!"
>> --Lazarus Long
Steve Jordan - 14 Jun 2006 23:17 GMT
On June 14, Jeff wrote:
> Update:
> June 5th he did a biopsy he needed to shave off part of the prostate to get
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> U.O.W. for a second opinion.
>  
I cannot tell from this whether Jeff has taken steps to empower himself
as I recommended in my reply to him dated May 7. A word to the wise.....

Second: as the literature clearly states, once the PCa (prostate cancer)
has spread beyond the gland itself, the cancer is systemic and surgery
is *NOT* curative. Repeat: *NOT* curative.

Third: once the locals have finished examining the biopsy specimens, it
is imperative that the specimens be sent to a specialist pathology lab
for expert analysis. The primary reason for this is that literally
everything that is done to treat this disease (if indeed there is
disease) from here on depends utterly on the accurate scoring of the
tumor specimens.

This costs ~$350 and insurance and Medicare normally cover the expense.

These are the labs that perform the service (urologists generally know
about them but will not volunteer the information):

David Bostwick (Virginia) [800] 214-6628
Jon Epstein (Hopkins) [410] 955-5043 or 410-955-2162 (Dr. Epstein does not
do ploidy analysis)
David Grignon (Michigan) 313-745-2520
Jon Oppenheimer (Tennessee]  [888] 868-7522  
Dianon Laboratories 1 [800] 328-2666 (select 5 for client services)
UroCor, Inc. 1 [800] 411-1839

Mine was done by Bostwick Labs and disclosed important information that
was omitted from the report of the local lab.
> Looks like I'm going to be treated at the UW hospital for removal of
> Prostate,Bladder and the urethra tube.
>  
See above. If it has extended beyond the gland, this will NOT cure the
cancer!
> While  I'm waiting for the UW this friday he has me in for a lung x ray and
> a bone scan.
>  
Which, unless the tumor expresses a high Gleason score, will likely show
nothing and be useless.
> Scared you bet wasn't ready for losing all three at the same time.
>  
Jeff might be permitting himself to be stampeded into a treatment (tx)
that is not appropriate. After all, the only certain diagnosis of PCa is
pathological examination of biopsy specimens and *that has not been
done.* Or not reported, at any rate.

If Jeff does not wish to passively accept whatever he is told, he should
take steps to learn about this disease (given that he even has PCa; they
don't really know). "Scratching their heads as to what is in there" is
simply not good enough. If the examination disclosed PCa, what are the
grades and total score? This is not frivolous; it is absolutely vital.

Regards,

Steve J

Also not frivolous, as I cited before: GET THE FACTS!
JG - 15 Jun 2006 05:37 GMT
Steve,

wrote:

"Second: as the literature clearly states, once the PCa (prostate cancer)
has spread beyond the gland itself, the cancer is systemic and surgery
is *NOT* curative. Repeat: *NOT* curative."

-----------------------------------------------------

That's what the lab was stumped by did it start in the bladder then to the
prostrate or the other way around.

My uro was very surprised to hear PC.

Will see what the UW lab says.

Thanks for the names of the labs I plan on using one.

You're right I don't have the facts yet. I will be meeting with my urologist
to go over the x-rays and bone scans the following week hope by then to have
facts.

I may have left the impression what ever he says I will do.

Thanks

Jeff

> On June 14, Jeff wrote:
>> Update:
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
>
> Also not frivolous, as I cited before: GET THE FACTS!
Peter Headland - 16 Jun 2006 02:31 GMT
Maybe I am misreading what you are saying, but some of those doctors
seem awfully eager to reach for their scalpels. Hang tough, don't let
them stampede you, get at least one second opinion (such as from a
radiation oncologist). If they hack out as much as they are talking
about, your quality of life is going to take quite a hit, so best make
100% sure it is the best way forward.

You will be in my thoughts - I hope this comes out well for you.

Signature

Peter Headland

JG - 16 Jun 2006 05:38 GMT
Peter,
We (me and the urologist)  plan on having the UW give a second opinion on
treat ment also.
I will also have my urologist contact a radiation oncologist.Never knew
about them.
Thank you,

Jeff

> Maybe I am misreading what you are saying, but some of those doctors
> seem awfully eager to reach for their scalpels. Hang tough, don't let
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You will be in my thoughts - I hope this comes out well for you.
 
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