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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / October 2005

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A Few Basic Questions, Please

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Robert11 - 23 Oct 2005 15:51 GMT
Hello:

A few basic questions, please:

a. What % of men of age 70 have, or deveop, prostate cancer ?

b. Life expectancy if so ?

c.  re a 4.8 psa:  what other possibilities are there ?

d. Probability of it actually being cancer with this kind of psa ?

Thanks,
B.
Leonard Evens - 23 Oct 2005 16:43 GMT
> Hello:
>
> A few basic questions, please:
>
> a. What % of men of age 70 have, or deveop, prostate cancer ?

Generally one man in six in the US will be diagnosed with prostate
cancer some time in life.  The great bulk of these are over 65, so the
chances of a man over 70 developing a clinical prostate cancer during
his remaining life are probably not much higher than one in six, but I'm
not sure of the exact figure.

Autopsies of men who die of other causes often show very high incidences
of (mostl small) prostate cancers, and the figures increase with age.
For men over 80, the chances of there being such a cancer in the
prostate is very high.   But such cancers should not be confused with
those that are diagnosed in clinical practice.   Remember the figure one
in six.  It is a good guideline.

> b. Life expectancy if so ?

Fewer than one in six men who are diagnosed with prostate cancer
actually die of it.  Many older men who are diagnosed with prostate
cancer live out their normal life spans and are never bothered by it.
But this can vary signficantly depending on the details of the
diagnosis.  If you are diagnosed with prostate cancer,  you really need
to discuss your specific case with a specialist, usually a urologist,
and in some cases more than one.   There is an excellent relatively new
book by Peter Scardino of Sloan Kettering, who is one of the world's
leading experts in prostate cancer research and in the surgical
treatment of it.

> c.  re a 4.8 psa:

Increased PSA is caused by a variety of causes, one of which is prostate
cancer.   A more common cause is benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH), an
increase in the size of the prostate.   This is very common in older men
and can interfere with urnination.   If it causes problems, it should be
treated.  I know a man who ended up in kidney failure because of failure
to treat his BPH.   If a urologist thinks there is a possibility of
prostate cancer,  he will do a biopsy to see if he can find any.   This
is a relatively safe procedure and most men find it not terribly
painful.   If a diagnosis of prostate cancer is made,  it may or may not
be appropriate to do anything about it right then, depending on the
details of the diagnosis.   It is important to remember that even
aggressive prostate cancer grows relatively slowly.   Whether or not to
treat it can depend on life expectancy, so often in older men it is just
followed by "watchful waiting" to see if the cancer seems to be
progressing too rapidly.  If it is, hormone therapy, which controls but
doesn't cure prostate cancer,  may be chosen rather than more aggressive
treatment by surgery or radiation.  In men with greater life expectancy,
current practice is to recommend more aggressive treatment in an attempt
to cure the cancer, but there are those who question how effective this
is for most men.

> what other possibilities are there ?
>
> d. Probability of it actually being cancer with this kind of psa ?

I think something like one in four biopsies end up showing the existence
of cancer.  As noted above, BPH is a more likely explanation,
particularly in an older man.   A sudden increase in PSA may indicate
prostatitis, i.e., inflammation of the prostate, but if sustained over a
year or more may indicate an aggressive prostate cancer.   As I said
above, you really need to discuss your individual case with a physician.
but don't get overly concerned.  More likely than not, you don't have
it, and even if you do, there is a reasonable chance it won't materially
affect your life.

> Thanks,
> B.
george conklin - 23 Oct 2005 23:03 GMT
>> Hello:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> life are probably not much higher than one in six, but I'm not sure of the
> exact figure.

  "Clinical"????  Autopsy results show 100% of men 80 and over actually
have prostate cancer.
Leonard Evens - 24 Oct 2005 00:58 GMT
>>>Hello:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>    "Clinical"????  Autopsy results show 100% of men 80 and over actually
> have prostate cancer.

First of all, it isn't 100 percent, secondly, I didn't specify over 80,
and thirdly evidence of prostate cancer on autopsy is not the same as
being diagnosed with prostate cancer while alive.  To demonstrate this
rather obvious fact, note that although the autopsy figures are very
high, it is still true that only one sixth of men in the US are ever
diagnosed with prostate cancer at any time during life.  This is despite
the fact that PSA screening is very common.  It is hard to see how
physicians could be any more persistent in searching for prostate cancer
than they now are, short of biopsying every man once a year without
regard to PSA status.   No one has ever suggested anything of that nature.

It seems fairly clear that the great bulk of prostate cancers found only
on biopsy are innocuous.   A certain percentage of prostate cancers
diagnosed clinically by current methods may also be innocuous, but no
one knows, despite attempts at estimates, how many there are.   By
identifying the two categories, you reduce an important medical question
to a tautology which cuts off any need for research.
george conklin - 24 Oct 2005 13:27 GMT
> First of all, it isn't 100 percent,

  Yes it is.

secondly, I didn't specify over 80,

 Not the issue.

> and thirdly evidence of prostate cancer on autopsy is not the same as
> being diagnosed with prostate cancer while alive.

  It is not obvious.  If men over 80 were screened heavily, it would be
found.

 To demonstrate this
> rather obvious fact, note that although the autopsy figures are very high,
> it is still true that only one sixth of men in the US are ever diagnosed
> with prostate cancer at any time during life.

 Not the issue either.

This is despite
> the fact that PSA screening is very common.  It is hard to see how
> physicians could be any more persistent in searching for prostate cancer
> than they now are,

   It just shows that current screening picks up only a few of the cancers.

short of biopsying every man once a year without
> regard to PSA status.

 Correct.  If that happened, it would be found.  End of issue.

ron - 23 Oct 2005 18:40 GMT
Robert...Do you have any historical PSA data?  PSA velocity or PSA
doubling time paint a much more informative diagnostic picture than a
single PSA point...Best wishes and good health, Ron
Robert11 - 23 Oct 2005 21:43 GMT
Hello:

Thank you all for replies and help; appreciate it very much.

PSA has always been low, prior to this last one.

B.

--------------------
> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Thanks,
> B.
 
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