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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2005

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anycall - 14 Jan 2005 15:36 GMT
I would appreciate any advice/comments

57 years old
large prostate 100g plus
PSA over last five years between 5 and 10 (currently 9)
catheter in place following cyscoscopy and biopsy last week
first uro says have TURP but may have to abort during operation and do a
simple prostatectomy
found out last night that biospsy shows High Grade PIN- I don't know much
about this yet but from what I have read so far I feel like "dead man
walking"!
second uro says he can do greenlight laser with no open surgery and will
take further biopsies during operation,
second uro says there is a small risk of prostate absorbing "operating
fluid" if I had to have the prostatectomy and says he has done plenty of
laser treatments on glands of upto 270g

Questions:

TURP or laser?
Significance of High Grade PIN on choice of TURP or Laser?
Anything else?

Many thanks
Stephen Jordan - 14 Jan 2005 16:58 GMT
> 57 years old
> large prostate 100g plus
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Significance of High Grade PIN on choice of TURP or Laser?
> Anything else?

(1) Was the biopsy performed solely on the basis of the PSA?
(2) Is there a PSA test history (dates and scores) by which one can
judge the doubling time/velocity of changes in scores?
(3) If he has had PSA scores between 5 and 10 for five years, he has
been beyond the recommended score (4.0 until recently; now 2.5) for that
long. What advice has he had for that period??
(4) Are there other symptoms, such as urinary difficulty?
(5) Did the uro check for other causes of the PSA score such as
infection, inflammation, BPH (benign prostate hyperplasia)? The large
prostate may be a sign of the latter, and the operative word is "benign."
(6) Have any other staging or diagnostic tests been done? Examples would
be PAP (prostatic acid phosphatase), CGA (chromagranin A), bcl-2, etc?
(7) Was a DRE performed? If so, what result?

*It is absolutely vital that the biopsy result be validated by a
specialist laboratory.*

Though not a medical practitioner, I recommend that NO treatment be
undertaken without further testing as above. There is no hurry.
Prostatic intraepithelial neoplasia (PIN) is *possibly* a precursor of
PCa, and the time before development of the latter is as much as five
years. See the website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute at
http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html

On that website, a discussion of PIN is found at
http://www.prostate-cancer.org/education/preclin/pin.html

I strongly recommend that "anycall" consult a medical oncologist. Right
now, his only advice seems to be coming from a uro, who is a surgeon and
naturally advocates a surgical solution (to a problem that may not even
exist).

Please let us know how it goes.

Regards,

Steve J
__
"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small,
large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good
sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming
might of the enemy.''
--Sir Winston L. S. Churchill
Leonard Evens - 14 Jan 2005 19:15 GMT
>> 57 years old
>> large prostate 100g plus
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> naturally advocates a surgical solution (to a problem that may not even
> exist).

His main problem at present is BPH.   We can't be sure because he
doesn't say, but it is extremely unlikely that his doctors haven't
already tried medical management of that via drugs. That is standard
practice.  Presumably he is having serious problems urinating.  The
standard treatments for that are either a TURP or use of a laser.   Note
that significant problems with urination requires immediate attention,
and the way to handle it if conservative measures have failed involves
surgery.  A former neighbor of mine ignored such problems and ended up
with kidney failure as a result.  That can kill you a lot faster than
prostate cancer.

Now it is true that he may also have prostate cancer.  So he does have
to get that straight.  If he did have prostate cancer and he had a
radical prostatectomy, then that would solve his BPH problems of course.
 But given the present circumstances, it is highly unlikely that any
competent urologist would do a radical prostatectomy.   Even if it turns
out he has prostate cancer, and he decides not to undergo surgery for
that,  he would still need to have the urinary blockage treated.  And
that would be done with surgery of one form or another.  I guess it is
possible that if he started hormone therapy that might shrink his
prostate and solve the urinary problem but not fast enough to resolve
what could be a very serious problem.   And no competent oncologist
would start him on HT in the present circumstances.

> Please let us know how it goes.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> might of the enemy.''
> --Sir Winston L. S. Churchill
anycall - 14 Jan 2005 20:19 GMT
Thank you Steve

In answer to your questions:

(1) Was the biopsy performed solely on the basis of the PSA?-

No- just before Christmas I noticed a small amount of blood at the
commencement of urination. This happened three times over a period of about
six weeks. I reported this to my uro and he arranged for bladder and kidney
scan (OK), PSA (9), cyscoscopy and biopsy

 (2) Is there a PSA test history (dates and scores) by which one can
judge the doubling time/velocity of changes in scores?

Aug 98        2.4
April 00       9.6
Aug 00        6.8    Free PSA 1.6
Feb 01        7.3    Free PSA 1.0
April 01       9.5
Dec 01        5.4    Free PSA 1.04
June 02        8.2    Free PSA  1.50
Dec 02        6.0
Jun03          5.5
Dec 03        7.5   Free PSA 1.70
Aug 04       10.0
Jan 05          9.0

(3) If he has had PSA scores between 5 and 10 for five years, he has
been beyond the recommended score (4.0 until recently; now 2.5) for that
long. What advice has he had for that period??

Uro diagnosed BPH and has been recommending TURP for last 3 years. Two
previous biopsies and 1 previous cyscoscopy were clear

(4) Are there other symptoms, such as urinary difficulty?

Yes intermittent bouts of urgency, difficulty in urination, weak flow.
Culminating in a total retention following cyscoscopy last week resulting in
catheter still in place.

(5) Did the uro check for other causes of the PSA score such as
infection, inflammation, BPH (benign prostate hyperplasia)? The large
prostate may be a sign of the latter, and the operative word is "benign."

See above

(6) Have any other staging or diagnostic tests been done? Examples would
be PAP (prostatic acid phosphatase), CGA (chromagranin A), bcl-2, etc?

No- only the tests described above

(7) Was a DRE performed? If so, what result?-

Several times- no concern expressed by Uro. Last week he said it felt "fine"

*It is absolutely vital that the biopsy result be validated by a
> specialist laboratory.*

I presume that the Pathologist he is using is suitably qualified.

I strongly recommend that "anycall" consult a medical oncologist

Could you please explain what is an "oncologist"

advice seems to be coming from a uro, who is a surgeon and
> naturally advocates a surgical solution (to a problem that may not even
> exist).

He advice is really directed to relieving BPH rather than dealing with a
potential cancer

Thanks for your comments, look forward to any further observations

Regards

>> 57 years old
>> large prostate 100g plus
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> might of the enemy.''
> --Sir Winston L. S. Churchill
Leonard Evens - 14 Jan 2005 19:01 GMT
> I would appreciate any advice/comments
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> about this yet but from what I have read so far I feel like "dead man
> walking"!

This doesn't sound like a typical prostate cancer problem.  It sounds
more like a complicated form of benign prostatic hypertrophy (bph).  I
doubt if you are going to get any useful advice from the web about this,
but you might try sci.med.prostate.bph or do a google search on bph.

I am not a physician and only know what I've read, so don't take what I
say below too seriously.  I've got most of my information from a book by
Patrick Walsh.

The two urologists are suggesting two different ways to treat bph which
is far enough advanced to cause problems urinating.  TURP is one
standard way to do it.  As you may know, that involves inserting a tool
to basically ream out the pathway.  But the urologist has also told you
that in case of complications he may have to go in and remove part of
the prostate.  What he calls a "simple prostatectomy" is a surgical
procedure in which the abdomen is opened and part of the prostate is
removed to open the pathway.  It is to be distinguished from a radical
prostatectomy in which the entire prostate and surrounding tissue is
removed in attempt to completely excise a cancer.

The second urologist is suggesting another standard way that is used, a
laser which burns out the tissue.

> second uro says he can do greenlight laser with no open surgery and will
> take further biopsies during operation,
> second uro says there is a small risk of prostate absorbing "operating
> fluid" if I had to have the prostatectomy and says he has done plenty of
> laser treatments on glands of upto 270g

Apparently the reason the first urologist mentioned the possibility of
surgery is the size of your prostate, but the second urologist doesn't
think that it will be a problem.  There is no way anyone on the web can
decide which of these guys is right.

> Questions:
>
> TURP or laser?

I would suggest getting additional opinions.  Your primary care
physician may be able to help you understand the choices.  He might also
be able to suggest other experts to consult.

> Significance of High Grade PIN on choice of TURP or Laser?

High grade PIN is precancerous tissue which some time in the future
might turn into cancer.  Or, it might not.  It doesn't sound as though
either doctor wants to treat you for prostate cancer right now.
Typically in a TURP (either way) same samples are collected for biopsy.
 It is possible they may show cancer.  Often such cancers are not
considered significant, but sometimes they lead to treatment for
prostate cancer.  It is possible that a simple prostatectomy might make
it more difficult to treat cancer later, but I don't really know.

Again, let me say that you need to consult medical experts about this.
From the web you will get a lot of contradictory information which you
won't be able to evaluate.   And you will find people pursuing one
agenda or another based on their personal experience.

> Anything else?
>
> Many thanks
Leonard Evens - 14 Jan 2005 19:18 GMT
>> I would appreciate any advice/comments
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> much about this yet but from what I have read so far I feel like "dead
>> man walking"!

Let me just add that you are very far from being dead.  But do get some
good advice from medical experts and make a decision.   If you are
having serious urinary problems you could be in real trouble if you put
off a decision too long.

> This doesn't sound like a typical prostate cancer problem.  It sounds
> more like a complicated form of benign prostatic hypertrophy (bph).  I
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>>
>> Many thanks
EverettRWadsworth@yahoo.com - 15 Jan 2005 04:02 GMT
anycall,
You are another victim of the fraudulent practices of the urology
profession.  Your prostate is large because it is full of pus from an
infection.  The prostate is full of acini which are sacs that secrete
prostatic fluid.  These sacs have blown up with pus which as a result
has distorted the size of the prostate.  You write about your PSA over
the last five years so it is obvious your urologist has known about
your condition for at least five years and yet your urologist has stood
by doing nothing - only waiting for conditions to progress to where he
can now recommend surgical intervention to treat the complications of
the infection.  Urologists are suppose to treat all diseases of the
prostate however they ignore anything that doesn't require surgery
since surgery is more lucrative.   Thereby they wait for conditions to
progress as is what is happening to you where now surgery can be
recommended.  anycall, were you ever tested for prostatitis?  did your
urologist ever treat you for an infection? of course not and that is
why your condition is what it is today.  Now your urologist is talking
about a TURP and a RP. It really makes me sick hearing things like this
- outright fraud and deceit by the urology profession.
anycall, it might not be too late for you - there is a fantastic book
by Dr. Hennenfent title "Surviving Prostate Cancer Without Surgery".  I
have read it and it saved my life and I have been highly recommending
it.  It will educate you on your condition and you will be able to take
control over your situation so you will receive treatment that is in
your own best interests - not the urologist.  
Regards,
Everett
Leonard Evens - 15 Jan 2005 15:44 GMT
> anycall,
> You are another victim of the fraudulent practices of the urology
> profession.

And you are trying to practice medicine without a license.  You have no
idea what is causing this man's problem.  Benign prostatic hyperplasia
is a common problem which develops in men as they age.  It is not the
same as infection.  You try to take what you think was the problem in
your case and apply to every other case.

> Your prostate is large because it is full of pus from an
> infection.  The prostate is full of acini which are sacs that secrete
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> control over your situation so you will receive treatment that is in
> your own best interests - not the urologist.

I noticed that Dr. Hennenfent also seems to be ready to offer advice for
a variety of other conditions spanning a wide variety of specialties,
none of which he is apparently board certified in.   He certainly seems
to be a talented man, a veritable universal genius in medicine.  Most
physicians find it hard enough to master one area.

As they say, if something sounds to good to be true, it probably isn't.

> Regards,
> Everett
EverettRWadsworth@yahoo.com - 15 Jan 2005 18:00 GMT
>Leonard Evens wrote:
>And you are trying to practice medicine without a license. You have no

>idea what is causing this man's problem. Benign prostatic hyperplasia
>is a common problem which develops in men as they age. It is not the
>same as infection. You try to take what you think was the problem in
>your case and apply to every other case.

BPH is a common problem as you have stated that develops in men as they
age.  However I doubt it is due to a natural aging process as the
urology profession wants you to believe but rather it is due to neglect
on the part of the urology profession.  As I have said before even
though urologists should be treating all diseases of the prostate they
choose only what is most lucrative to them.  Therefore they ignore
everything else so as a result small problems progress to even bigger
problems where urologists can now treat the complications that have
resulted from their own neglect.  You have stated that BPH is not the
same as an infection.  How do you know this?  It might be and it might
not be.  There is also the possibility that BPH could be caused by fat
plugging the prostate's arteries which Dr. Hennenfent talks about in
his book.  Urologists have no real way to distinguish BPH from
prostatitis and don't seem to be interested in finding out.  It has
been shown that if you are under 50 you will be diagnosed with
prostatitis and if you are over 50 with the same condition you will be
diagnosed with BPH.  Some men that were diagnosed with BPH and were
suggested a TURP from their uro were later properly diagnosed with
prostatitis and were cured of their condition medically. Dr.
Hennenfent's book "The Prostatitis Syndromes"  talks about the
BPH/Prostatitis controversy.  So it would seem to make more sense to at
least rule out this aspect before resorting to more aggressive invasive
procedures as is with this man's case.  His urologist seems to have
ignored a possible infection as a cause which is common for urologists
to do since they are surgeons and treating something medically is not
in their interests even though they are also medical doctors and are
suppose to treat all diseases of the prostate - not pick and choose
what is the most lucrative and ignore everything else.

>As they say, if something sounds to good to be true, it probably isn't.

Yes, and the radical prostatectomy is a perfect example of this.  It
doesn't work if you do need it and it seems to work if you don't need
it.
Regards,
Everett
Leonard Evens - 15 Jan 2005 19:30 GMT
>>Leonard Evens wrote:
>>And you are trying to practice medicine without a license. You have no
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> resulted from their own neglect.  You have stated that BPH is not the
> same as an infection.  How do you know this?  

I am stating what is the almost universally accepted belief of the
urology profession.  Since you are convinced that all urologists are
liars and cheats, that doesn't prove anything as far as you are concerned.

But for anyone else who might be reading this, and that is really to
whom it is directed, I ask the following question.  What is the
likelihood that the entire urology profession is wrong and Mr.
Wadsworth's interpretation of what he has read in a book by a physician
who isn't even board certified in urology is right.  I refer here
specifically to the issue of benign prostatic hyperplasia and how to
treat it.

The question of how to treat early prostate cancer is another matter.
There are those in the medical profession who question whether it is
generally worthwhile treating such cancers by any method, surgery or
radiation, rather than waiting until explicit symptoms develop and then
using hormone therapy to extend life as long as possible.  Everyone
except extremists admits that some men are helped by such intervention
and some men who presently get it would never be bothered by their
cancers during their lifetimes.  Unfortunately, there is no foolproof
way to distinguish between the cases.   The moderate critics of present
treatment guidelines think the cost to the men who don't need the
treatment in terms of side effects or extra worry is too high to make up
for the benefit to those who are cured or have their lives extended.
There are two question here.  One is from the public health perspective
whether to push early detections schemes.  It may be that they are not
"cost effective".  The other question is from the perspective of any
given man whether it is worth his while to have himself tested and then
to treat his cancer if it is detected.   For some men, it is clearly
worth their while.  Because of ethnic background or family history, they
are at much higher risk of prostate cancer, and a chance to cure it or
slow it down is worthwhile on balance.  For older men, who are not
likely to live more than 10 years, it is generally not worthwhile
because even if they do get prostate cancer it probably can be
adequately controlled while they are alive and won't present too much of
a problem.   Other men are somewhere in the middle.

In all of this, it is a matter of trying to change the odds in your
favor after you consider all the factors.   Myself, I opted for testing,
and when my cancer was diagnosed,  I chose to have it treated.  I
understood the odds that the treatment wold fail and that there might be
side effects I didn't like.  But in balance I thought it preferable to
try to avoid advanced prostate cancer, which is not fun at all.  I made
my choice and I have to live or die with it.  So far things have worked
out well.  When other men ask me about it, I tell them what I know, not
leaving out the uncertainties about whether or not they will actually
benefit or if they even need to be treated.  I respect their right to
make their own decisions.

Mr Wadsworth's assertions about all these matters is rather unusual to
say the least.  He thinks there is only one disease.  My advice is to
ignore what he says.
EverettRWadsworth@yahoo.com - 17 Jan 2005 15:46 GMT
>Leonard Evens wrote:
>I am stating what is the almost universally accepted belief of the
>urology profession.

That's your problem.  The rate of prostate cancer is 100% if you live
long enough so something is obviously wrong with what the urology
profession is doing  yet you want to be close minded blindly accepting
whatever the urology profession tells you which will only result in the
rate of prostate cancer continuing to be 100% if you live long enough.

>What is the likelihood that the entire urology profession is wrong and
Mr.
>Wadsworth's interpretation of what he has read in a book by a physician
>who isn't even board certified in urology is right.

Why don't you read the book and find out for yourself instead of
continuing to be close minded.

>I refer here specifically to the issue of benign prostatic hyperplasia
and how to
>treat it.

If you weren't so close minded and read the book you would actually
learn something here about BPH and in turn how to quite possibly
prevent prostate cancer.

>The question of how to treat early prostate cancer is another matter.
>There are those in the medical profession who question whether it is
>generally worthwhile treating such cancers by any method, surgery or
>radiation, rather than waiting until explicit symptoms develop and then
>using hormone therapy to extend life as long as possible. Everyone
>except extremists admits that some men are helped by such intervention

>and some men who presently get it would never be bothered by their
>cancers during their lifetimes. Unfortunately, there is no foolproof
>way to distinguish between the cases....<snipped>

Ok, that's fine what you said and for that matter the rest of your
paragraph.  I have no arguments there with much of that and Dr.
Hennenfent writes similar about it in his book.  But here you are
actually admitting without realizing it that the science is bad in
urology and urologists don't really know what to do and from what I've
seen they don't care to find out.  Their only concern is to do surgery
which has never shown to extend anyone's life and only results in
permanent side-effects and helps nobody except the financial statement
of the urologist and the hospital.

>Mr Wadsworth's assertions about all these matters is rather unusual to

>say the least. He thinks there is only one disease. My advice is to
>ignore what he says.

If you think my assertions about these matters is rather unusual than
that's fine, it's about time everyone finds out how the urology
profession operates.  If you read the book you would understand why I
think there is only one disease and I feel you would feel the same
after you learn the facts rather than remaining close minded as you
are.  Everyone should ignore what I say?  What about what you say?  You
want everyone to follow the urology profession which will result in a
100% occurance of prostate cancer and mutilation.  You like to refer to
Patrick Walsh's book.  Patrick Walsh will tell you not to come in or
discourage you from coming in if he senses you do not have a problem
that has the potential for some surgical procedure.  Even though he is
suppose to treat all diseases of the prostate he likes to pick and
choose what is most lucrative as mostly all urologists seem to do
therefore contributing to the problem.  He will give you his sales
pitch for his nerve-sparing operation.  Dr. Hennenfent talks about this
operation in his book.  I will quote a sentence from his book "The
nerve sparing approach can actually make the operation more likely to
fail because cancer is more likely to be left behind along the nerves
that are spared".  So from your statement that everyone should ignore
what I say - I think it's time everyone better listen to what I have to
say and hopefully they are all not close minded like you are.
Regards,
Everett
ron - 17 Jan 2005 16:50 GMT
EverettRWadswo...@yahoo.com wrote:...snip...
> The rate of prostate cancer is 100% if you live long enough

This statement is a belief, not a fact (or is there a reference?).
More to the point, it has no basis in reality.  PCa does not affect
teenagers, an effective cure is one that allows people to live 30-40
years beyond treatment.  The overwhelming majority of men treated by RP
today are "cured", they die of something other than PCa.

> ...snip...the science is bad in
> urology and urologists don't really know what to do and from what I've
> seen they don't care to find out.

Quit bad-mouthing urologists it is becoming tiresome.  They are just
like any other group of individuals, there are good and bad urologists.
The few that I have encountered have been open minded and try to do
what is in the patient's best interest.

> Their only concern is to do surgery
> which has never shown to extend anyone's life and only results in
> permanent side-effects and helps nobody except the financial statement
> of the urologist and the hospital.

This is untrue.  In the Holmberg study, the underlying PCa population
was divided into two arms, one was treated by RP and the other
practiced WW, and results were compared over time.  At the 6-year point
it was found that RP had reduced the rate of local progression by 63%,
reduced distant metastasis by 35%, and reduced PCa-specific deaths by
48%.  Further, the surgical branch had 14.5% less overall mortality
than those on WW.  This last difference did not test statistically
significant at 6 years.  PCa is often a slowly progressing disease, so
it is not surprising that a difference in overall mortality did not
test significant at 6 years into the study.  Presumably as time goes on
and the striking differences already seen in progression and mets
increase further, the overall mortality difference will increase
further and test significant.  In any case, PCa-specific and overall
mortality rates were lower in the RP arm as compared to the WW arm.

> ...snip...Dr. Hennenfent talks about this
> operation in his book.  I will quote a sentence from his book "The
> nerve sparing approach can actually make the operation more likely to
> fail because cancer is more likely to be left behind along the nerves
> that are spared".

"Can" is the key word in Dr. H's statement.  Doctors (especially those
of Walsh's caliber) and patients, usually collect data to assess the
likelihood of PCa being present in the nerve bundles, and then make an
informed decision on how to proceed based upon the data and the
patient's priorities.

Everett, I don't disagree with the point you make regarding infection
and cancer, it is a promising area that has only recently begun to be
explored.  However, rarely are things as one-sided as you seem to
present them.  Today, surgery has a place in treating PCa and saying
otherwise only misinforms.  Since this is a science board, it would be
helpful in your future posts if you posted some specific data or
references, that I presume exist in Dr. H's book, rather than just
referring to the book, in order to substantiate your position and
foster debate...Good health and best wishes, Ron
EverettRWadsworth@yahoo.com - 20 Jan 2005 00:57 GMT
>ron wrote:
>an effective cure is one that allows people to live 30-40
>years beyond treatment
>The overwhelming majority of men treated by RP
>today are "cured", they die of something other than PCa.

That is not a cure.  That is only your definition of a cure.  Here is
how Dr. Hennenfent defines a cure a I quite agree with it:
"Surgeons have perverted the meaning of the word cure when it comes to
prostate cancer. If you undergo the radical surgery called the radical
prostatectomy, you can never be considered cured, because you always
sacrifice some quality of life.
A cure only occurs when you are treated and your illness goes away
and you return to normal health. The word cure should never occur in
the same sentence with the term radical prostatectomy. "

>Quit bad-mouthing urologists it is becoming tiresome.

Bad-mouthing urologists might be your interpretation but that's not how
I see it.  I am performing a public service warning everyone of the
fraudulent practices of the urology profession.

>They are just like any other group of individuals, there are good and
bad urologists.

No, there are only bad urologists.  The urology profession is based on
flawed science.  If you read Dr. Hennenfent's book you would understand
why.

>The few that I have encountered have been open minded and try to do
>what is in the patient's best interest.

You only think that they are trying to do what is in the patient's best
interest since you have not read Dr. Hennenfent's book and as a result
you only have limited knowledge.

>This is untrue. In the Holmberg study, the underlying PCa population
>was divided into two arms, one was treated by RP and the other
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>than those on WW. This last difference did not test statistically
>significant at 6 years  <snip>

Statistics can be manipulated to achieve the desired outcome.  In Dr.
Hennenfent's book he says about the Holmberg study the authors
concluded "there was no significant difference between surgery and
watchful waiting in terms of overall survival".

You might also want to take a look at this:
http://survivingprostatecancerwithoutsurgery.org/prostatecancerholmberg.php

>"Can" is the key word in Dr. H's statement. Doctors (especially those
>of Walsh's caliber)

Of Walsh's caliber???  You have got to be kidding.  Walsh contributes
to the problem!  Walsh is part of the problem, not the solution.  Ron,
you obviously don't understand what is going on with the urology
profession. Please do yourself a favor and read Dr. Hennenfent's book.
You really do need to read Dr. Hennenfent's book.

>Everett, I don't disagree with the point you make regarding infection
>and cancer, it is a promising area that has only recently begun to be
>explored.

Good, I am very happy to hear this from you.  Yes, it definitely is a
promising area.  If you read Dr. Hennenfent's book you would understand
that infection could hold the key to solving prostate cancer.

>However, rarely are things as one-sided as you seem to
>present them. Today, surgery has a place in treating PCa and saying
>otherwise only misinforms.

Surgery has no place in treating PCa.  Surgery harms all who undergo it
and in saying otherwise misinforms.
Regards,
Everett
dale.j. - 18 Jan 2005 09:37 GMT
> >Leonard Evens wrote:
> >I am stating what is the almost universally accepted belief of the
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
> Regards,
> Everett

I've read enough of your babblings Everett.  You're going to my
killfile.  goodby

Signature

Email:  dalej2@mac.com

EverettRWadsworth@yahoo.com - 18 Jan 2005 16:24 GMT
>dale.j. wrote:
>I've read enough of your babblings Everett. You're going to my
>killfile. goodby

I'm sorry the truth disturbs you Dale.  Goodbye and good luck.
Regards,
Everett
anycall - 26 Feb 2005 21:24 GMT
You may recall that I asked for comments, a few weeks ago, on my forthcoming
operation for bph.

In hindsight I should have perhaps posted to the bph newsgroup but I did get
a response, although unfortunately two contributors entered into a fairly
heated discussion. Anyway many thanks for your input.

I thought I might update you with what has happened.

After further discussion with my (TURP) uro I decided, just a few days
before the operation to go for "traditional TURP" rather than laser. It was
no easy decision.

I went into hospital on 27 Jan and had the operation at 9.00am. It took 1.25
hours. I awoke in the recovery room with just a little pain in the abdomen
which was quickly sorted out by a shot of morphine. I have suffered no pain
from that point onwards. As my blood pressure was a little on the low side a
nurse sat with me constantly in the recovery room for 2 or 3 hours until
they were confident that I could be returned to my room.

I was on antibiotics and paracetamol. I drank gallons of water and took in
plenty of other liquid through a (saline?) drip.I stayed in hospital for
three nights and returned home on day 4. Apart from feeling a little tired I
was fine and returned to my desk (at home) to work a week after discharge
from hospital.

A few days later I picked up a urinary infection which was soon cleared up
with antibiotics. I think that if I had continued on antibiotics upon
leaving hospital I would not even have got the infection, but we chose not
to continue with them as I have a low level allergy to them.

After two weeks there was no trace of blood in urine. I do have retro but
this makes no difference to the sensation during sex, and the retro may
reverse in time.

Luckily there was no need for the "simple prostatectomy" and the Uro removed
60g of material for analysis.

I am now urinating with a flow that I have not experienced since I was a
teenager, there is no more dribbling, no urgency and instead of getting up
to urinate 3 to 5 times a night, it is now 0 to 1 a night.

The test results showed no cancer.

On the same day a gentleman of 78 years also had the procedure and he left
on the same day that I did.

I am totally happy with the result of the TURP and if I had known how easy
it was going to be I would have had it years ago.

This is not to denegrate the laser option, I suspect that within a few years
it may overtake traditional TURP as the prefered option. I might easily have
chosen that method myself, it was simply that my particular circumstances
led me to choose the traditional TURP.

Anyway, thank you again for your comments and good luck to you.

Regards

Anycall

>I would appreciate any advice/comments
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Many thanks
Mike - 01 Mar 2005 13:06 GMT
> I am now urinating with a flow that I have not experienced since I was a
> teenager, there is no more dribbling, no urgency and instead of getting up
> to urinate 3 to 5 times a night, it is now 0 to 1 a night.

The same results could have been obtained by use of the drug FloMax.
Rich - 02 Mar 2005 18:41 GMT
> > I am now urinating with a flow that I have not experienced since I was a
> > teenager, there is no more dribbling, no urgency and instead of getting up
> > to urinate 3 to 5 times a night, it is now 0 to 1 a night.
>
> The same results could have been obtained by use of the drug FloMax.

With lots of side effects.  Many of us who have tried it have given it up
because of nausea, back pains and muscle pains in general.  It has just too
many side effects.  It only helped me marginally and was not worth the pain.
My URO does both PVP and TUMT.  He suggested trying the TUMT first and I
went along and will have it done in a couple weeks.  Perhaps a mistake not
going directly to the PVP.
Greg Louis - 03 Mar 2005 13:15 GMT
>> > I am now urinating with a flow that I have not experienced since I was
>> > a teenager, there is no more dribbling, no urgency and instead of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> With lots of side effects.  Many of us who have tried it have given it up
> because of nausea, back pains and muscle pains in general.

Not everyone experiences those side effects.  It would likely be worth
digging out statistics before making a decision; as an example, I have
been on 0.4mg/day since being seeded Nov. 16, and have found it effective
(I forgot one once and the difference was quite convincing) without any of
the problems mentioned above.
Rich - 03 Mar 2005 15:24 GMT
> >> > I am now urinating with a flow that I have not experienced since I was
> >> > a teenager, there is no more dribbling, no urgency and instead of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> (I forgot one once and the difference was quite convincing) without any of
> the problems mentioned above.

That is true but I think a little research you will find that it has more
side effects than most medications.  I thought dizziness was the only thing
until reading here about those with other aches and pains.  And it doesn't
cure the problem.  Perhaps only is a relief for a while - it does not shrink
the prostate.  Due to the possible side effects my URO would not even
consider giving it to a 97 year old.
 
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