> There has been a lot of discussion of the recent study reported in the
> New England Journal of Medicine. On the one hand too much has been
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> Dartmouth are jumping to conclusions when they imply that the recent
> study shows PSA testing is useless.
I am not sure they said useless. But virtually every man over 50 would
have a biopsy every year under new regime proposed by some physicians.
Note also that all researchers
> have vested interests in their various hypotheses. Welch has been a
> consistent critic of early detection and has attempted to show with
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> carry the debate to the public arena. Maybe he should answer those
> critics who do so.
Wrong. Catalona is widely quoted as a being a militant on PSA testing. I
have posted his comments here from the New York Times.
> One the other hand, the paper does raise some interesting points, which
> should be explored further. The purpose of any diagnostic test for
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> die each year of prostate cancer has been declining during the era of
> PSA testing.
But very little...only 3%. What all the surgery and testing, one would
expect far greater drops. That is what is so much of concern. Yes, you
know you have it longer, but does the end result change?
I find it extremely unlikely that this would occur only if
> men had biopsies after abnormal DRE exams or even after explicit
> symptoms of prostate cancer.
Physicians would be dong biopsies every year on nearly the entire male
population. Further, by age 80 everyone would have had surgery, since
everyone has symptoms of cancer by that age.
The usual argument is improved treatment,
> but we know that the basic primary treatments aren't of any use if the
> cancer has progressed,
The reason it is being studies is that current basic primary treatments
may not be of much use either. That is what is of such a great concern.
Look at the huge number of surgical failures.
and the likelihood of progression is higher if
> one waits for abnormal DRE results. (Note in this context that some of
> the critics of early diagnosis also argue against routine DRE.) So it
> is possible that the major effect of PSA testing has been that a lot of
> men have had early biopsies which has led to detection of more early
> cancers. I don't find this too plausible, but it would be something for
> a bright biostatistician to investigate.
As you know, this is what the PIVOT and other studies are doing, but you
posted earlier you were ready to reject their findings too. Have you
changed your mind?
jhlms - 31 May 2004 02:55 GMT
Gentlemen,
My head is swimming....I have read each and every one of the postings here
(several times over)....each provides a "pretty damned good" argument
relative to the pros/cons of PSA testing.....at least that's what I see as
the argument (i.e. are PSA's *really* the early detection tool needed to
determine treatment for PCa?).
Gentlement, each of you have presented very valid arguments. And numbers
that (to me) would take a math scholar to assimilate. I'm stupid...I admit
it. However,
I just don't understand the contrivercy......
At this point in time, a PSA test is the only benchmark we have to early
detection. True, a "high" PSA would then trigger a biopsy, and thus a
positive finding of PCa, but if I'm not just crawling out o' th' swamp,
ain't that *ALL* we got?????? Maybe it's not much, but it's all we got!!!
I would prefer to depend on the PSA as a guide, than to have NOTHING!!!!
True, indeed, the PSA is not perfect; however it's a much better early
signal than those with other forms of cancer. I can't think of any routine
blood test that signals lung cancer, cervical cancer, colo-rectal cancer and
so on.
I, personally, feel very lucky. I had a simple procedure during a routine
physical that threw up a few red flags. I had the surgery to remove the
problem......I can't imagine the ramifications should my physician had
chosen to view the PSA as superfluous, or worse... unnecessary.
> > There has been a lot of discussion of the recent study reported in the
> > New England Journal of Medicine. On the one hand too much has been
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> posted earlier you were ready to reject their findings too. Have you
> changed your mind?
George Conklin - 31 May 2004 13:05 GMT
> > > There has been a lot of discussion of the recent study reported in the
> > > New England Journal of Medicine. On the one hand too much has been
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> > posted earlier you were ready to reject their findings too. Have you
> > changed your mind?
> Gentlemen,
> My head is swimming....I have read each and every one of the postings here
> (several times over)....each provides a "pretty damned good" argument
> relative to the pros/cons of PSA testing.....at least that's what I see as
> the argument (i.e. are PSA's *really* the early detection tool needed to
> determine treatment for PCa?).
The problem is that the basic research has never been done. No one knows if
early detection works for prostate cancer. We hope it might, but so little
money is spent for research that major questions go unanswered. Dartmouth
points out yet again that if we live long enough, we all will develop tumors
which can be found upon biopsy, but finding such tumors may not be
important.
> Gentlement, each of you have presented very valid arguments. And numbers
> that (to me) would take a math scholar to assimilate. I'm stupid...I admit
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> problem......I can't imagine the ramifications should my physician had
> chosen to view the PSA as superfluous, or worse... unnecessary.
That is a cultural statement based on conventional thinking.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of evidence that many tumors do not need to be
treated, and that eventually every male would have surgery if you live to
about 80. It was thought that high-dose chemtherapy for breast cancer (aka
bone marrow transplants) would work too, but when they got done with the
research, it in fact did NOT work. HRT failed too, and even increased
death rates for women. I have posted before that women have been much more
politically active, and are about 20 years ahead of men on basic research on
female cancers.
I had a TURP done 3 yrs ago at which time the Doctor removed, as he stated
it, Sixty two ( 62 ) chips from my prostate; two (2) of which were
cancerous. I have had PSA tests on a regular basis ever since which prove to
be low. (Under 1).
I recently changed my Urologist and on my first visit he talked to me about
a more accurate procedure of discovering cancer than the PSA called "re
staging biopsy". He said it is a simple procedure done in the office and has
a better chance of detecting cancer as opposed to the PSA "wait and see"
testing.
Has anyone had this procedure or heard about it?
> There has been a lot of discussion of the recent study reported in the
> New England Journal of Medicine. On the one hand too much has been
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> cancers. I don't find this too plausible, but it would be something for
> a bright biostatistician to investigate.