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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / June 2004

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PSA Testing, the scientific issue

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Leonard Evens - 30 May 2004 17:24 GMT
There has been a lot of discussion of the recent study reported in the
New England Journal of Medicine.   On the one hand too much has been
made of it because the results reported are not surprising in light of
what was already known.  If you look at Walsh's 1995 book on prostate
cancer, he already notes that a significant number of prostate cancers,
 I think it was 25 percent or so, arise in men with "normal" PSA.  The
NEJM report says that 15 percent of men in a certain placebo group of
another study who had PSAs below 4.0 showed prostate cancer on biopsy
after 7 years.  We shouldn't directly compare the 15 percent with the 25
percent since they are measuring somewhat different things, but still
the orders of magnitude are consistent.   Moreover, those like Welch at
Dartmouth are jumping to conclusions when they imply that the recent
study shows PSA testing is useless.   Note also that all researchers
have vested interests in their various hypotheses.  Welch has been a
consistent critic of early detection and has attempted to show with
various populations studies that he is right.   Researchers like William
Catlona, who pioneedred the use of PSA testing, probably have a bias in
favor of showing that PSA testing is useful.  But this is all worked out
in the ordinary course of publications and analysis of all the research.
  Moreover, in scientific articles, researchers have to adhere to
certain methodological guidelinse which tend to make them more
objective.  Welch  sounding off to a reporter about someone else's
research, doesn't merit much attention.  If he has something to say
worth paying attention to, he should submit it to a scientific journal
where referees can examine his arguments carefully.  It should be noted
that Catalona restricts himself mostly to scientific forums and doesn't
carry the debate to the public arena.  Maybe he should answer those
critics who do so.

One the other hand, the paper does raise some interesting points, which
should be explored further.   The purpose of any diagnostic test for
early cancer should be to select a population at greater risk which can
be tested further.   I don't think any serious student of the subject
can maintain that PSA is useless for that.   Men with PSA greater than
4.0 ng/ml are in factor more likely to have prostate cancer, and the
higher the PSA, the more likely that is.   The question is exactly how
much more likely than men in the general population.  the paper gives
some information about that, but I don't think it settles it.  In
addition, it would be important to know what additional information,
such as PSA velocity or free PSA tests might add and thereby increase
the selectivity.

A related question is the following.   The most critics can conclude
from studies of this kind is that you would detect as many prostate
cancers simply by randomly doing biopsies in the same numbers on all men
over a certain age.  Note that the absolute number of men in the US who
die each year of prostate cancer has been declining during the era of
PSA testing.  I find it extremely unlikely that this would occur only if
men had biopsies after abnormal DRE exams or even after explicit
symptoms of prostate cancer.  The usual argument is improved treatment,
but we know that the basic primary treatments aren't of any use if the
cancer has progressed, and the likelihood of progression is higher if
one waits for abnormal DRE results.   (Note in this context that some of
the critics of early diagnosis also argue against routine DRE.)  So it
is possible that the major effect of PSA testing has been that a lot of
men have had early biopsies which has led to detection of more early
cancers.  I don't find this too plausible, but it would be something for
a bright biostatistician to investigate.
George Conklin - 30 May 2004 22:58 GMT
> There has been a lot of discussion of the recent study reported in the
> New England Journal of Medicine.   On the one hand too much has been
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Dartmouth are jumping to conclusions when they imply that the recent
> study shows PSA testing is useless.

  I am not sure they said useless.  But virtually every man over 50 would
have a biopsy every year under new regime proposed by some physicians.

Note also that all researchers
> have vested interests in their various hypotheses.  Welch has been a
> consistent critic of early detection and has attempted to show with
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> carry the debate to the public arena.  Maybe he should answer those
> critics who do so.

 Wrong.  Catalona is widely quoted as a being a militant on PSA testing.  I
have posted his comments here from the New York Times.

> One the other hand, the paper does raise some interesting points, which
> should be explored further.   The purpose of any diagnostic test for
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> die each year of prostate cancer has been declining during the era of
> PSA testing.

   But very little...only 3%.  What all the surgery and testing, one would
expect far greater drops.  That is what is so much of concern.  Yes, you
know you have it longer, but does the end result change?

I find it extremely unlikely that this would occur only if
> men had biopsies after abnormal DRE exams or even after explicit
> symptoms of prostate cancer.

  Physicians would be dong biopsies every year on nearly the entire male
population.  Further, by age 80 everyone would have had surgery, since
everyone has symptoms of cancer by that age.

The usual argument is improved treatment,
> but we know that the basic primary treatments aren't of any use if the
> cancer has progressed,

  The reason it is being studies is that current basic primary treatments
may not be of much use either.  That is what is of such a great concern.
Look at the huge number of surgical failures.

and the likelihood of progression is higher if
> one waits for abnormal DRE results.   (Note in this context that some of
> the critics of early diagnosis also argue against routine DRE.)  So it
> is possible that the major effect of PSA testing has been that a lot of
> men have had early biopsies which has led to detection of more early
> cancers.  I don't find this too plausible, but it would be something for
> a bright biostatistician to investigate.

 As you know, this is what the PIVOT and other studies are doing, but you
posted earlier you were ready to reject their findings too.  Have you
changed your mind?
jhlms - 31 May 2004 02:55 GMT
Gentlemen,
My head is swimming....I have read each and every one of the postings here
(several times over)....each provides a "pretty damned good" argument
relative to the pros/cons of PSA testing.....at least that's what I see as
the argument (i.e. are PSA's *really* the early detection tool needed to
determine treatment for PCa?).
Gentlement, each of you have presented very valid arguments.  And numbers
that (to me) would take a math scholar to assimilate.  I'm stupid...I admit
it.  However,
I just don't understand the contrivercy......
At this point in time, a PSA test is the only benchmark we have to early
detection.  True, a "high" PSA would then trigger a biopsy, and thus a
positive finding of PCa, but if I'm not just crawling out o' th' swamp,
ain't that *ALL* we got??????  Maybe it's not much, but it's all we got!!!
I would prefer to depend on the PSA as a guide, than to have NOTHING!!!!
True, indeed,  the PSA is not perfect; however it's a much better early
signal than those with other forms of cancer.  I can't think of any routine
blood test that signals lung cancer, cervical cancer, colo-rectal cancer and
so on.
I, personally, feel very lucky.  I had a simple procedure during a routine
physical that threw up a few red flags. I had the surgery to remove the
problem......I can't imagine the ramifications should my physician had
chosen to view the PSA as superfluous, or worse... unnecessary.

> > There has been a lot of discussion of the recent study reported in the
> > New England Journal of Medicine.   On the one hand too much has been
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
> posted earlier you were ready to reject their findings too.  Have you
> changed your mind?
George Conklin - 31 May 2004 13:05 GMT
> > > There has been a lot of discussion of the recent study reported in the
> > > New England Journal of Medicine.   On the one hand too much has been
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
> > posted earlier you were ready to reject their findings too.  Have you
> > changed your mind?

> Gentlemen,
> My head is swimming....I have read each and every one of the postings here
> (several times over)....each provides a "pretty damned good" argument
> relative to the pros/cons of PSA testing.....at least that's what I see as
> the argument (i.e. are PSA's *really* the early detection tool needed to
> determine treatment for PCa?).

The problem is that the basic research has never been done.  No one knows if
early detection works for prostate cancer.  We hope it might, but so little
money is spent for research that major questions go unanswered.  Dartmouth
points out yet again that if we live long enough, we all will develop tumors
which can be found upon biopsy, but finding such tumors may not be
important.

> Gentlement, each of you have presented very valid arguments.  And numbers
> that (to me) would take a math scholar to assimilate.  I'm stupid...I admit
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> problem......I can't imagine the ramifications should my physician had
> chosen to view the PSA as superfluous, or worse... unnecessary.

  That is a cultural statement based on conventional thinking.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of evidence that many tumors do not need to be
treated, and that eventually every male would have surgery if you live to
about 80.  It was thought that high-dose chemtherapy for breast cancer (aka
bone marrow transplants) would work too, but when they got done with the
research, it in fact did NOT work.   HRT failed too, and even increased
death rates for women.   I have posted before that women have been much more
politically active, and are about 20 years ahead of men on basic research on
female cancers.
Ebbtide - 22 Jun 2004 12:26 GMT
I had a TURP done 3 yrs ago at which time the Doctor removed, as he stated
it,  Sixty two ( 62 ) chips from my prostate; two  (2) of which were
cancerous. I have had PSA tests on a regular basis ever since which prove to
be low. (Under 1).
I recently changed my Urologist and on my first visit he talked to me about
a more accurate procedure of discovering cancer than the PSA called "re
staging biopsy". He said it is a simple procedure done in the office and has
a better chance of detecting cancer as opposed to the PSA "wait and see"
testing.
Has anyone had this procedure or heard about it?

> There has been a lot of discussion of the recent study reported in the
> New England Journal of Medicine.   On the one hand too much has been
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> cancers.  I don't find this too plausible, but it would be something for
> a bright biostatistician to investigate.
 
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