Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / June 2004
Why do urologists believe that T is bad for CaP?
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Ed Friedman - 16 Jun 2004 21:58 GMT I have been fascinated by the treatments for prostate cancer (CaP) reported by Dr. Robert Liebowitz. By targeting dihydrotestosterone (DHT) instead of (T), he now has published the only study done with early stage (T1-T3) CaP which has a realistic chance of producing a 100% cure rate. What astonishes me is how almost all of the other urologists are ignoring his work. I know that Dr. Liebowitz is still 7.5 years away from the 15 year mark which is used as the standard time frame for determining a cure rate, however, I am unaware of any other study that is anywhere near as promising as his (e.g., the recent Swedish study in the NEJM had over 4% CaP deaths for T1-T2 patients after 6.2 years following RP). The question is, has Dr. Liebowitz lost credibility with other urologist because he questions (http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/leibowitz/HDTRT8.html) the classic work of Fowler and Whitmore from 1981, which "proves" that T is always bad for CaP?
Recently I read the Fowler and Whitmore article in order to decide for myself where the truth lies. For those of you who haven't read it, it basically treats men with metastatic CaP by injecting them all with an identical dose of testosterone propionate. The results ranged from bad to horrific. Bone pain increased, all indications were that CaP was growing at a faster rate, and in each case the patient had to stop the treatment after a week or two.
Also in this article was a table listing all of the previous known studies done with T and CaP, and summarizing their findings. In almost all of the cases, similar horrible pain and suffering was observed.
I am not a MD, but I can understand that those people who become MD's do so to ease the pain and suffering in other people, and after reading the Fowler and Whitmore article would vow never to inflict that onto any of their patients. However, I am a PhD in Biophysics and Theoretical Biology, and I am capable of reading a scientific article in a more objective manner.
So with that in mind, let's first examine the methodology of the experiment. To start with, let's look at some of the nitpicking details. The study was not done using standard double blind technique, nor even single blind, nor with any controls (e.g., no indication of what effect, if any, the propionate had).
Next let's examine their protocol. The best way to describe it is to give an analogy. Imagine that you are writing a paper with the goal of demonizing the use of insulin for diabetics. One way to do this in a "believable" fashion would be not to measure the blood sugar before or during treatment in any of the patients and to give them all the same dosage of insulin at each meal. The results would be almost uniformally terrible. Well, looking at the Fowler and Whitmore paper, they did not measure the level of T before or during treatment in any of their patients and gave them all the same dosage of T, and the results are almost uniformally terrible.
Finally, if we continue the analogy of demonizing insulin for diabetics, the flaw in the setup is that if you look at enough patients, occasionally you will by random chance administer the correct dosage for a small number of patients and their results would be extremely positive. This would definitely be hard to explain if your model is that insulin is bad for all diabetics. However, one neat solution is to omit a column heading for positive results when you summarize all of the results of other researchers (who used that same protocol). Therefore, anyone reading your paper will see nothing but horrible things about the effects of insulin on diabetics, and you will have a very neat and tidy model. Well, looking at the Fowler and Whitmore paper, they omitted a column heading for positive results when they summarized the results of other researchers. In looking at the references they used, you will find a small number of extremely positive results when T was administered to CaP patients. One patient that sticks in my mind was one who had lost over 30 lbs. in weight, had pain throughout his bones due to metastases, and following administration of T his pain went away, his weight returned to normal and he ended up living over a year before finally passing away from CaP.
Now let us compare the model of most urologists (which I will call the T model) in which T is bad for CaP patients under all circumstances with a model that I will make up (which I will call the DHT model) in which T actually kills cancer cells and DHT is what is bad for CaP patients under all circumstances.
First lets look at the patients who did poorly as reported in the Fowler and Whitmore paper. The T model explains this easily, since they were all administered T. The DHT model also explains this, since T is converted to DHT, and nothing was done in this experiment to prevent the conversion.
Next lets look at the few patients who did extremely well when T was administered. The T model really can't explain this at all. The DHT model can explain it by saying that if you have enough T, you can counteract the bad effects of DHT. E.g., let's pull some numbers out of the air, since none were reported in the actual papers. Let's assume that a serum level of T of 500-600 ng/dL produces the maximum amount of DHT and thus maximizes CaP growth. If the testosterone injections increased the serum level by 500 ng/dL on average, then let's assume that those patients with the worst response all had initial levels of T of less than 100.
Now let's assume that the level of T necessary to counteract the effect of maximum DHT is 1200 and that those who experienced positive response started with an initial level of 700-800. Then the T would be above the level necessary to counter the DHT, and would start to kill the CaP for those patients. It is known that when T is administered externally, the maximum total serum level of T is observed 2-6 weeks after the start of treatment. After that, the body produces less T internally, resulting in a lower total level of T, so that administering the same dosage of T (without doing serum measurements to maintain a constant serum level of T) is almost guaranteed to soon bring the level of total T low enough for the CaP to start growing again.
So just looking at the data presented in the original Fowler and Whitmore paper (and their references) it is clear that the T model is scientifically impossible, whereas the DHT model fits the observed data.
Now lets look at some other data not included in their paper. First, men with genetic mutations that prevent DHT formation do not get CaP (and do not lose their hair). This finding has no explanation in the T model, but is totally expected in the DHT model.
Next, CaP is most common in men when their T/DHT ratio becomes too low. As men age, they produce less T, but more DHT. In the teenage years, when T is at its highest (in some cases over 2000), CaP is unknown. The T model again fails to explain this, while the DHT model succeeds.
In summary, the T model, which seems to be universally accepted by urologists today, has no scientific basis to support it. (If anyone knows of any studies done in which T accelerates CaP growth which also rule out other possible explanations, such as conversion of T to DHT or T to estrogen, please let me know.) The DHT model also does not have enough scientific basis to support it, but it at least fits the known data. In order for a true model to be made, much more complex experiments would have to be carried out, measuring serum and saliva level of all of the known androgens (T, free T, DHT, DHEA, estrogen, 2-hydroxyestrone, 16alpha-hydroxyestrone, 4-hydroxyestrone) and cross-referencing them to PSA, examining patients known to be hormone-sensitive, hormone resistant, and hormone refractory, as well as checking every stage of CaP.
Also, nobody should try to self-medicate themselves with T as a result of what I have written here. Again, if you use the insulin model as an example, even if T is helpful, it must be used in the proper dosage, and that dosage has yet to be determined. Also, I do not wish to be seen as questioning the integrity of Fowler and Whitmore. Although their work does not hold up to modern scrutiny, they were imitating the protocols used by others in that field and were working in a time when not even PSA testing was available. The real tragedy is that their summary stated that T should be "used with caution" with men with metastatic CaP. What they should have said is that T is the only chemical produced inside men that has been shown in some isolated instances to have incredible potential for treating CaP. However, since in most cases it causes extremely harmful effects, it should be used with extreme caution, but more research is definitely warranted.
So, getting back to the original point of this post, if urologists are ignoring Dr. Liebowitz's results because he rejects the T model that they hold so dear, then they don't have a scientific leg to stand on.
Ed Friedman
dale.j. - 16 Jun 2004 22:15 GMT
> So, getting back to the original point of this post, if urologists are > ignoring Dr. Liebowitz's results because he rejects the T model that > they hold so dear, then they don't have a scientific leg to stand on. > > Ed Friedman I did not read your entire posting Ed, sorry. My only comment is I think most Urologists want to cure not experiment. I know mine feels that way which I'm happy about.
Dale J.
 Signature Email: dalej2@mac.com
Ed Friedman - 17 Jun 2004 17:34 GMT > I did not read your entire posting Ed, sorry. My only comment is I > think most Urologists want to cure not experiment. I know mine feels > that way which I'm happy about. > > Dale J. Dale,
I would agree with you if there were a cure available now that had 0% deaths from detected prostate cancer (CaP), when detected early, after 15 years. Right now, the non-experimental treatment with the best record is radial prostectomy, which is known to produce ~10% chance of dying from CaP after 15 years, and ~5% chance of dying from CaP after 7.5 years. The problem is wether to choose that or to choose the "experimental" treatment, Intermittent Triple Androgen Blockade, which is known to produce ~0% chance of dying from CaP after 7.5 years, and no data yet for 15 years.
Ed Friedman
dale.j. - 17 Jun 2004 22:09 GMT > > I did not read your entire posting Ed, sorry. My only comment is I > > think most Urologists want to cure not experiment. I know mine feels [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Ed Friedman I'd guess I would like to know what the post op pathology report said about those 10 percent. From that perhaps we would find that nothing would have cured them, even the T.
How were subjects selected for the T Blockade testing, perhaps you mentioned it already but I missed it, sorry.
Dale
 Signature Email: dalej2@mac.com
Ed Friedman - 18 Jun 2004 19:29 GMT > In article <1KjAc.25$25.8604@news.uchicago.edu>, > I'd guess I would like to know what the post op pathology report said [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Dale The subjects for the Liebowitz study consisted of patients who had clinical stage T1-T3 prostate cancer, with biopsies being taken at the patients' local institutions. Any patient with clinical evidence of metastatic disease was excluded from the study. None of the patients had any form of localized treatment (surgery or radiation) prior to the study.
I don't know if any study has been performed like you wanted on the 10 percent who die, but you might find Dr. Liebowitz's analysis on this topic informative (though lengthy):
http://www.prostatepointers.org/leibowitz/DrLeib7.html
Ed Friedman
Leonard Evens - 17 Jun 2004 14:42 GMT > I have been fascinated by the treatments for prostate cancer (CaP) > reported by Dr. Robert Liebowitz. By targeting dihydrotestosterone [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > classic work of Fowler and Whitmore from 1981, which "proves" that T is > always bad for CaP? There is nothing certain about any approach to prostate cancer. If you find Liebowitz's methods make sense to you, and you want to proceed that way instead of using conventional treatment for early prostate cancer, that is your decision. You may very well be making the right decision and the rest of us may be too conservative.
As far as evaluating Liebowitz's work, I have two comments. If I were seriously considering being treated that way, I would certainly try to understand everything I could about it. Since I've never had any intention of going that way, it would be pointless for me to try to understand the issues involved. I'm sure others feel the same way. I do have some experience doing research in mathematics and I have a reasonable understanding of the scientific method. One thing I've learned is that even in areas closely related to my area of expertise I have to spend many months preparing myself before I can have any even remotely original thoughts. I have to go through the process of making all the usual beginner's mistakes and having them corrected. There doesn't seem any way to avoid that. In an area remote from my area of expertise, I would have to go through the equivalent of several years of graduate work to get up to speed. So it is a waste of time. In this regard, always keep in the mind the advice that even a physician should not treat himself. When you delve into uncharted territory like this, you are coming close to doing that.
One other comment concerns the period of time after treatment. Remember that in the US, for most early cases of prostate cancer discovered by PSA testing, the surivival rate at 5 years is close to 100 percent. A comparision with the Swedish study you mention is misleading. In Sweden they don't do PSA testing, and so the men in their study had their cancers diagnosed because they had had some problems and seen their urologists. It is usually estimated that in the US, prostate cancer is diagnosed at least five years earlier than in countries like Sweden. That is clear from the relatively high prostate cancer death rates following treatment (RP or WW) in the study within an average of 6 years after treatment.
> Recently I read the Fowler and Whitmore article in order to decide for > myself where the truth lies. For those of you who haven't read it, it [quoted text clipped - 135 lines] > > Ed Friedman Ed Friedman - 17 Jun 2004 18:45 GMT > One other comment concerns the period of time after treatment. Remember > that in the US, for most early cases of prostate cancer discovered by [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > urologists. It is usually estimated that in the US, prostate cancer > is diagnosed at least five years earlier than in countries like Sweden. Leonard,
Your conjecture is easily testable by looking at objective data such as baseline PSA scores at the start of the experiments as well as staging.
The Swedish study had a baseline PSA of 13, and were at stages T1-T2. The Liebowitz study had a baseline PSA of 12.7 and were at stages T1-T3. Objectively, this seems pretty comparable to me (unless you are claiming after 5 years of untreated CaP you should expect PSA's to rise only 0.3).
I am still waiting for some objective criticism of Dr. Liebowitz's work. I understand that medicine is a very conservative profession, but at what point do you question your long held beliefs? If Dr. Liebowitz has 0% CaP deaths after 10 years, will that convince you? What about after 15 years? I suspect that for some doctors, nothing will ever convince them to change the way they are doing things.
Ed Friedman
Leonard Evens - 17 Jun 2004 22:27 GMT >> One other comment concerns the period of time after treatment. >> Remember that in the US, for most early cases of prostate cancer [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > claiming after 5 years of untreated CaP you should expect PSA's to rise > only 0.3). You may be right. Then again, it should be pointed out that you are making an assumption, namely, that there aren't other factors except the PSA level and the stage that are relevant. Much of the controversy about treatment methods arises because no one really understands just which cancers are likely to progress. Indeed, the critics of PSA testing and early treatment, as generally practiced by urologists in the US, argue that too many of those cancers are treated needlessly, by any method, and until we know more, treatment for early prostate cancer should be avoided except in very special circumstances. So the fact that on the average men in the US are treated 5 or more years earlier may still be relevant. I certainly don't feel qualified to judge that myself.
But you shouldn't be arguing this here with me. If you really think you have something relevant to say, you should submit it for publication to a scientific journal where it can be evaluated by experts. That is the system we use to judge science. It has faults, and certainly on occasion new ideas may be suppressed. But that happens much less often than people imagine, and eventually the facts do get out. For us to argue about this is like the blind leading the blind, which generally is not a good way to find the path.
> I am still waiting for some objective criticism of Dr. Liebowitz's work. > I understand that medicine is a very conservative profession, but at [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ed Friedman
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