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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / December 2004PVP results
How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? My flow was 900% better one hour after surgury. Patrick > How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? Tony, You should know that this guy "Patrick" has been a spokesman for the company Laserscope. Laserscope provides the equipment, support and training for the surgeons who do the procedure. He has had exceptionally good results. It doesn't always work out as well, or as quickly for many others. Some patients have an immediate improvement in flow, but then the prostate swells up and can create a lot of discomfort for weeks. I am not recommending against the surgery, but don't expect miracles or get swallowed up in this guy's promotional hype. Marcus > My flow was 900% better one hour after surgury. > Patrick > > > How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? > Tony, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Marcus Thank You Marcus and Patrick. Patrick's experience seemed a little too good to believe. I had a PVP on Nov 24 and am still recovering. No major problems, but I expect to urinate much better in a month or so. The catheter was removed the day after surgery, but had to be reinstalled in a few days due to the inability to urinate. It then became blocked by blood clots and was removed later that day. I was able to urinate well enough for the ER to release me and have had steady improvement. After I urinated a blood clot, my stream increased markedly. Tony - My uro said it would take two to three months for full recovery. And, it did take some time to totally get rid of occasional burning sensations and a red tinge to the urine. Retention was nil and flow was good from the start. Urgency was a non issue. Frequency has gotten much better as bladder tone seems to have returned. I did pass a chunk or two but none caused any blockage. Its been less than two weeks for you. Please report back to this newsgroup at two months and I bet you will be very pleased. As an aside, Marcus is a bitter PVP'er who had a bad experience. As a result he accuses LSCP, and doctors of fraud and misleading advertising. He would ban medical advertising. Those who speak well of PVP belong to the "Church of Laserscope". Patrick is not a "spokesman" for Laserscope as Marcus implied. Patrick is a long time respected poster who is an advocate of PVP because he had very good results. I'm very pleased with my PVP and I let people know. Therefore I'm a spokesman for them?? Marcus, please don't start again. Dennis > > Tony, > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > the ER to release me and have had steady improvement. After I urinated a > blood clot, my stream increased markedly. Tony, My results are hard to believe but they are true and I remain fully delighted with my PVP for two and a half years. Let me restate results that you find hard to believe as from what I have read in published papers, my results are in the typical range. - 17 years BPH sufferer, age 43, good shape and no other health problems, 70+gram median lobe extending into bladder. Peak flow 5 ml/sec, retention 440 ml, AUA BPH symptom score 32 out of max 35, quality of life score 5 miserable. - PVP June 2002 by Dr. Te NYPres Hospital, out of surgury no catether, left hospital next morning, resumed walking next day, resumed running after 1 week, resumed weight lifting after 1 month, resumed cycling after 1.5 months, slight bleeding after exercise for several months. Peak Flow immediately after surgury and today exceeds 50 ml/sec 900% improvement, residual 0 ml 100% improvement. AUA BPH symptom score 0 out of max 35, quality of life score 1 delighted. No retro, no side effects. From the published results on now thousands of PVP performed my results are not that extraordinary but are experienced by many many men who undergo PVPs all over the country. Good luck to you if you are try to decide what you want to do regarding BPH, Patrick >> Tony, >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > for the ER to release me and have had steady improvement. After I > urinated a blood clot, my stream increased markedly. Marcus, I strongly object to being labeled by you as a spokesman for the company Laserscope. I am not nor ever been a spokesman for the Laserscope company. I am a delighted recipent of one of the first Laserscope PVPs back in June 2002 by Dr Te in New York, nothing more and nothing less. Patrick > Tony, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >> > How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? To whom it may concern: Here we have a couple of guys..... right off the bat (Tony and myself)...... who had to go to the ER following PVP surgery. Who knows how many others have had this wondrous experience? Meanwhile, Patrick, who admits to having been approached by the President of Laserscope after his surgery, does not consider himself to be a spokesman for the procedure. Hmmmmm......well I guess twisting and ignoring the truth has become an inate part of the American way. After all, its now our national pasttime! > Marcus, > I strongly object to being labeled by you as a spokesman for the company [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >> > >> > How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? Marcus, Please stop implying that Patrick's a lier. Someone else did that before and I'm really sick of it. I've had two PVP's and had problems including complete retention more than once, a stricture, and a long difficult recovery from my 1st op, and retro from my second. But I know Patrick personally and he's a great guy trying to be helpful to this newsgroup. He's aware that everyone doesn't have as smooth a time of it as he did. But he's speaking from his own experience, as we all do. And he's quite knowlegable about BPH methodologies in general. So please don't make the attacks personal. Anyone who reads this newsgroup for a while will see the varieties of post-op experiences both good and bad. Ron > From: "Marcus" <orealius@comcast.net> > Organization: Comcast Online [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >>>> >>>>> How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? As soon as Patrick stops using his own personal experience as a testament to a definitively trouble-free PVP experience I'll stop critiquing his comments. I'm sure he's a "great guy" but that has nothing to do with this NG nor does it excuse such a one-dimensional presentation of this surgical procedure. As I've said several times on this newsgroup, I don't try to dissuade anybody from going for PVP. But I do present a cautionary note.......which (as you have mentioned) pertains to many people who have gone through Post-PVP difficulty. The better prepared a patient is for the possible problems associated with PVP, the more effectively the patient will deal with those urgent, pressing needs. In his zealous promotion of PVP, Patrick would do well to attenuate his enthusiasm, discuss the caveats of the surgery, and disclose his previous relationship to Laserscope. Marcus > Marcus, > Please stop implying that Patrick's a lier. Someone else did that before and [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > >>>> > >>>>> How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? Marcus wrote: In his zealous promotion of PVP, Patrick would do well to attenuate his enthusiasm, discuss the caveats of the surgery, and disclose his previous relationship to Laserscope. Response: my enthusiam is based on my own experience which was great. I have disussed the caveats, the risks of PVP, TURP and doing nothing many many times. As for previous (and present) relationship with Laserscope: NONE. I contacted them in 2001 by telephone and email. Got a lot of excellent information from Martina. Volunteered for PVP in the clinical trail. Had successful PVP. Meet the President of Laserscope when I gave a testimonial of PVP to members of Congress in Washington. Also met Dr. Malek, the inventor of PVP in Washington. That is the extent of my relationship with Laserscope. I have only one regret regarding Laserscope. I should have bought the stock at the time of my PVP. It was $3 share then, today it is over $30. I will continue to inform others of my experience as long as there are guys like you spreading nonsense about misinformation, false advertizing etc, etc. I have read your posts for two years and frankly you don't what you are talking about. You don't even know the facts about your own condition and what happened in your own PVP. Yet you continue to make statements that are non-factual and not supported by data. So I will continue to tell of my own experience and to share new data when I find it with the group. My objective is to help a few more men rid themselves of the quality of life impact of BPH the best way that they could. I hope you would have the same objective. Patrick > As soon as Patrick stops using his own personal experience as a testament > to [quoted text clipped - 94 lines] >> >>>> >> >>>>> How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? Yes, I know Ron personally and I know full well that he certainly has not had a "walk in the park" experience that Marcus calls my PVP experience. Ron has gone through a lot in the past two years. It wasn't easy and it wasn't without problem. But Ron and I certainly agree that for both of us, this newsgroup with all of its information help both of us enormously. Both Ron and I continue to post here for two reasons. First to help others by sharing our experiences and second to get information to help ourselves. I continue to wish Ron all the best. Patrick > Marcus, > Please stop implying that Patrick's a lier. Someone else did that before [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] >>>>> >>>>>> How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? Thanks Patrick. My best advice for those guys with BPH is to find a good Uro, hopefully experienced with PVP, & ask alot of questions about what to expect from doing a procedure as opposed to doing another procedure, using medicines or herbs or nothing. Be sure to get the diagnostics to determine the source of the symptoms. We at least have a head start my accessing this newsgroup. Ron > From: "TAP" <1LCrestview@comcast.net> > Newsgroups: sci.med.prostate.bph [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] >>>>>> >>>>>>> How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? Patrick writes: "As for previous (and present) relationship with Laserscope: NONE. I contacted them in 2001 by telephone and email. Got a lot of excellent information from Martina. Volunteered for PVP in the clinical trail. Had successful PVP. Meet the President of Laserscope when I gave a testimonial of PVP to members of Congress in Washington. Also met Dr. Malek, the inventor of PVP in Washington. That is the extent of my relationship with Laserscope." Hmmmmmm........interesting understanding and use of the word "none." Meeting the president and inventor of the procedure, giving testimony to congress, involved with a PVP clinical trial.......all this constitutes a 'none' ...or 'no' relationship to the company? No wonder we can't communicate! Marcus Marcus, Please tell me how you would describe my relationship with Laserscope. You started this by saying the I am Laserscope's representative which I categorically deny. So yes I meet Eric Reuter and Dr. Malek. Great people. Both Eric and I and Dr. Malek and I hit it off well the day we spent together in Washington. I personally thanked Dr. Malek for his years of research that I benefited from and he told me how gratifying it was to hear that from a recipent of his years of work. Eric Reuter, Laserscope's President is a great guy and I enjoyed meeting and talking with him. He is an engineer as am I, so we talked engineer to engineer. It was his leadership that took the PVP from concept to viable product. He bet the entire company on the 80W KTP Greenlight device. I am very pleased that they have succeeded as we all have benefited from his hard work. So that is my relationship with Laserscope. Your mind can think of all kinds of sinister conspiracy theories on how I am really a secret agent of Laserscope planted here to talk poor and unfortunate men into going for an unnecessary and unneeded PVP. Despite what you can dream up, reality is rather ordinary as I described. Patrick > Patrick writes: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Marcus No, I am not insinuating a "sinister" conspiracy here with Laserscope." I am pointing out that you obviously have had a relationship with the upper echelons in the company and that, in conjunction with your rousing successful surgery, it is very likely to affect your overall objectivity about PVP. Look, when someone posts a question to the NG, such as Tony did recently: "How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement?".....and you simply write back: " My flow was 900% better one hour after surgury".......that is technically the truth, but it is only a part of the truth, and you know it! If you really want to be helpful to guys who ask pertinent, basic questions such as" 'how long does it take to improve?'......then just remarking on your successful experience alone, without siting the significant number of patients who have had POST-PVP problems, is simply irresponsible. People who have questions may not have been following this NG very long and are not necessarily aware of all the longer than advertised recovery rates that have been documented here. You obviously are a major contributor to this discussion and have a lot of good info. But you might want to see your participation as less an affirmation of your particular experience, and more toward a broad discussion and understanding of all the potential issues and consequences of the surgery. Marcus > Marcus, > Please tell me how you would describe my relationship with Laserscope. You [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > > > Marcus Well Marcus, I also posted the following with regard to my own recovery. I think it is quite informative, expicit and 100% true. It is also typical of what is achieved by most men in the clinical trials. no post-surgury catether Resumed walking after 1 day Resumed normal activites like driving after 1 day Resumed running after 1 week Could have resumed working after 1 week but took 2 weeks off Resumed weight lifting after 1 month Resumed cycling after 1.5 months Fully 100% recovered from surgury ~ 3 to 6 months Full improvement from BPH after about 1 year As for providing general information, I do when I something to contribute which I can honestly say is much more than you have ever contributed. I look at the Laserscope website now and then and I must say they keep adding better and more useful information as the numbers reach higher and higher. Realize over 40,000 men have had PVP since your PVP. Those are the men that bph sufferers should be listening to. I realize that you actually have contributed something to this newsgroup. If you hadn't continued to post all your false advertizing nonsense, I would have stopped posting a long time ago. But since I feel strongly about the the false claims you have repeatedly made, I stay around and continue to add my voice to the discussion. So yes Marcus, you have contributed something, you have gotten me to stay and to continue to add at least some value to the discussion. Many men should thank you for this. Patrick > No, I am not insinuating a "sinister" conspiracy here with Laserscope." I > am [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] >> > >> > Marcus My objectivity didn't change by meeting Eric Reuter or Dr. malek. My objectivity is based on my results which I express in mumbers. Numbers are hard to agrue with. Like peak flow going from 5 ml/sec to 50 ml/sec. How do you argue this result? Patrick > No, I am not insinuating a "sinister" conspiracy here with Laserscope." I > am [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] >> > >> > Marcus The only reason I bother with Patrick's myopic, self-indulgent proselytizing about Laserscope is so that other readers can, at least, observe that there is a counterpoint to his experience and assessment of the procedure. If I had the time, I'd put together the statements documenting the ever growing list of contributors to this Newsgroup who have had major recovery issues. As far as his objectivity goes, he gives himself away. He sites HIS numbers, implying that this is what one should expect. As Alex De G recently writes: "Above all, beware those who say "It worked for me - therefore it will work for you" Such people are either fools or rogues or both." Marcus > My objectivity didn't change by meeting Eric Reuter or Dr. malek. My > objectivity is based on my results which I express in mumbers. Numbers are [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > >> > > >> > Marcus Marcus, I cite my numbers and published results of clinical trials. You don't even cite your numbers or even your condition prior to your PVP. You don't mention the name of your doctor. Yet you accuse Laserscope of false advertising and misleading people. You accuse me of being their spokesman. You point a lot of fingers with no facts. As for putting together all of these major recovery issues that you claim to know about, take the time and put them together in a clear, objective post. We would all like to read it and evaluate it. But stop your factless and baseless bantering on being mislead by me or Laserscope. Patrick > The only reason I bother with Patrick's myopic, self-indulgent > proselytizing [quoted text clipped - 131 lines] >> >> > >> >> > Marcus There's nothing "factless" about my claims........there is a "significant minority" of patients who experience extended post-operative difficulties. Even Laserscope would probably have to admit this, though I doubt they would ever say so in their "ads." With so many PVP procedures taking place, we're talking of probably hundreds, perhaps thousands of patients, with pressing problems that can go on for weeks or months. What newsgroup have you been reading anyway? I would say that there are at least 20 pages of these kinds of post-PVP issues that have been documented JUST ON THIS NEWSGROUP ALONE! It would take several hours to compile such a document as there are probably 40 pages of discussion on here on this topic, and one would have to edit out the repetitions as a result the way the e-mails often include previous correspondence. But what I will do is come up with a general statement about PVP that will include the positive and negative aspects of the procedure, from my perspective (including experiences such as yours). So, rather than continue this rancorous correspondence I'll just try to put my statement out there whenever I think it is relevant. Marcus > Marcus, > I cite my numbers and published results of clinical trials. [quoted text clipped - 145 lines] > >> >> > > >> >> > Marcus Marcus: YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF. You ABSOLUTELY KNOW from previous posts that Patrick is just a satisfied customer. To label him a "spokesman" is actually quite libelous. It is an intentional LIE. Your CREDIBILTY is ZERO. Unless these days being a whiner has new value. Mel > To whom it may concern: > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >> >> >> >> > How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? Sorry but in quite a few medical problems that use laser surgery, the laser has been proven to be all but useless. One specialist I go to refers to laser using surgeons as "cowboys with lasers" within his own medical specialisation. To say that someone should be ashamed of themselves means you think lasers work and that is that. So, that makes the last line of your post referring to credibility something which you also suffer - none. > Marcus: > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >>> >> >>> >> > How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? To say that someone should be ashamed of themselves means you think lasers > work and that is that. What an idiotic statement!!! Why don't you read what I posted. Marcus should be ashamed of himself for calling Patrick a Laserscope "spokeman." That IMPLIES that Patrick is somehow doing the company's bidding as a job (ie: getting paid). That was my point. I really wonder if you are serious regarding your assertion that lasers don't work. Tell that to those who have been helped. When my BPH says "it's time," I will go the PVP route (unless something better is out there by that time!) Mel > Sorry but in quite a few medical problems that use laser surgery, the > laser has been proven to be all but useless. One specialist I go to refers [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] >>>> >> >>>> >> > How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? > To say that someone should be ashamed of themselves means you think lasers >> work and that is that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > What an idiotic statement!!! Then why did you post your idiocy prompting me to post the above which you quoted if you think that? Patrick, Hi. Rich T. here. It's been 2 1/2 years for me since my PVP, July, 2002. I'm very pleased with the continuing comfort of being able to urinate about normally and not having anxiety between intermissions. For y'all, I'm definitely a shill for laserscope. It's allowed me to live a normal existence since the procedure. I was up and out of the hopital same day with no catheter and peeing like a champ. Have a sort of a retro ejac., but I've impregnated my young and beautiful wife twice since then, though both resulted in miscarr. unfortunately. But, we're still trying, and it works more often than not. btw, I'm 60, and we do have a 2-yr old. My prostate was 100 grams at the time, and the uro I had been seeing before Dr. Te wanted to do an open prost. I'm so glad I discovered this group and Patrick's comments about laserscope. I just hope it continues to last. If I can get 5 to 10 years out of it, I'll be quite pleased. Patrick, regards. > My flow was 900% better one hour after surgury. > Patrick > > > How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? Just wanted to say "Hi" Rich, We spoke on the phone way back, & I'm glad you're doing well. Good Luck. Ron > From: "Rich T." <richtan@optonline.net> > Organization: Optimum Online [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> >>> How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? Hey Rich, glad you to hear you are doing well and all part are fully active. :) Compared to us Jersey guys, you Brooklyn guys are real studs. :) Take care and wish you a happy holidays. Patrick > Patrick, Hi. Rich T. here. It's been 2 1/2 years for me since my PVP, > July, 2002. I'm very pleased with the continuing comfort of being able to [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> >> > How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? There is not, nor can be, a short answer to this question. It depends upon a whole host of factors mainly involving your age, general state of health and your reason for having the PVP. BPH can be diagnosed as the result of many different causes. The success of any procedure aimed at alleviating the symptoms of BPH,, including PVP, will depend critically on your general health and age. If you are 40 years old and in general good health you will obtain whatever benefits are possible relatively early. If you are 60 then count on the same number of months as the 40 year old counted weeks. If you are 70 , for months read years. If you are 80, be kind to the people about you and attend to your will. Above all, beware those who say "It worked for me - therefore it will work for you" Such people are either fools or rogues or both. It depends upon On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:30:19 -0800, "Tony" <tony23@efn.org> wrote: >How long after a PVP does it take to get improvement? |
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