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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / September 2004

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I must have jinxed the group by mentioning the lack of posts

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Lee M. - 08 Sep 2004 22:44 GMT
Is anyone else as tired of Marcus' diatribe as I am?  It's beaten it to
death already.  Take your whining somewhere else.  We've heard it all
before.
Marcus - 09 Sep 2004 05:57 GMT
Maybe your're tired of the "diatribes" but readers new to the group haven't
heard these
'diatribes' yet.

I suppose John G's post today is also a "diatribe" in your view, as is
anyone who won't
settle for accepting the status quo.

I'll restate it in another way...and these are a medical specialist's words:
"Laserscope is guilty of fraud."

Marcus

> Is anyone else as tired of Marcus' diatribe as I am?  It's beaten it to
> death already.  Take your whining somewhere else.  We've heard it all
> before.
Nelson - 09 Sep 2004 11:22 GMT
> I'll restate it in another way...and these are a medical specialist's words:
> "Laserscope is guilty of fraud."

At the risk of restarting something that probably few wish to hear,
what "medical specialist" was that?  There are legal and ethical
implications of making such a charge... weren't you the one going on
about "ethics".

> Maybe your're tired of the "diatribes" but readers new to the group
> haven't heard these 'diatribes' yet.

With regard to hearing about other people's experiences, I for one
appreciate hearing about the good as well as the bad and am glad you
have taken the time to post your experiences in this regard.

What I don't appreciate is your shrill campaign to smear Laserscope as
a company because you were disappointed with your results and feel that
they, rather than your own doctor, have some responsibility to warn you
in advance about all the possible complications of BPH, even those that
are independent of treatment modality.

Signature

Nelson

TAP - 09 Sep 2004 13:50 GMT
Marcus,

You are way out of line.  Laserscope is neither guilty of fraud nor making
any fraudulent statements either verbally or in writing in any brochure,
document, or website.

Patrick

> Maybe your're tired of the "diatribes" but readers new to the group haven't
> heard these
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> > death already.  Take your whining somewhere else.  We've heard it all
> > before.
greg@invalid.com - 11 Sep 2004 13:29 GMT
>Marcus,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Patrick

How can you possibly know that "Laserscope is neither guilty of
......"  ?

Unless, of course, that you are Laserscope..

Not a pleasant conclusion so perhaps we should hope that it is just
another example of sloppy reasoning :-)

regards
TAP - 11 Sep 2004 15:45 GMT
The definition of fraud is making statement that you know are false and
misleading for the purpose of achieving personal gain while causing injury
to another party.

I challenge anyone to find such statements ever made by Laserscope.

Patrick

> >Marcus,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> regards
Dean - 11 Sep 2004 16:14 GMT
They sure made some of these completely false statements but have since
eliminated them.
                 Dean,
> The definition of fraud is making statement that you know are false and
> misleading for the purpose of achieving personal gain while causing injury
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> >
> > regards
TAP - 11 Sep 2004 16:46 GMT
Dean,
Please tell me the false statements that were ever on the Laserscope
website.

I have reviewed that website for three years now and have never seen
anything the least bit misleading.

Patrick

> They sure made some of these completely false statements but have since
> eliminated them.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> > >
> > > regards
Dean - 11 Sep 2004 23:24 GMT
Patrick
        With respect to you, I'm not going to keep beating a dead horse but
it is GOSPEL that Laserscope stated last summer on their website " IN SIX
WEEKS YOU WILL BE ABLE TO SLEEP THREW THE NIGHT WITHOUT HAVING TO GET UP TO
URINATE" maybe not in these exact words but it was clear what they meant.
    Dean,
> Dean,
> Please tell me the false statements that were ever on the Laserscope
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> > > >
> > > > regards
Marcus - 12 Sep 2004 04:38 GMT
Here's another from their January '04 web-site that is, to be politie,
questionable:

"Some men may experience more severe symptoms that can be easily treated by
your doctor"

This was amended back in the spring to read: "Some men may experience more
severe symptoms that can be treated by your doctor." Note that the word
"easily" was removed. "treated" does not necessarily mean treated
successfully.

When I read the "easily treated by your doctor" back a year ago I was
convinced that any post-surgical problems were  essentiall non-problematic
and alleviated with little trouble.

This was hardly the case for me, and apparently many others who have
contributed to this NG. Accunpuncture saved me from 2 months of miserable
symptoms, Post-PVP surgery. There was nothing 'easy' about it.

Marcus

> Patrick
>          With respect to you, I'm not going to keep beating a dead horse but
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
TAP - 12 Sep 2004 05:06 GMT
Marcus,
That is how you made your decision to have a PVP?
based on that quote in the Laserscope website?

It wasn't that you had a blockage that had to be removed?

It wasn't because you had a choice between:
a) continuing without any surgury
b) having a TURP
c) having something else like a TUMT or TUNA.

Did you go to your doctor and say, "I want a PVP"

or did your doctor evalute you and recommend that you have a blockage remove
with a PVP?

I am wondering, did your doctor gaurantee that you "will have no problems
after a PVP? or did he make you sign a bunch of papers that said that you
understood the risks associated with surgury etc?

I am sorry that the PVP has worked out for you as you had hoped but it is
really a stretch to say that that is Laserscope's fault.

Patrick

> Here's another from their January '04 web-site that is, to be politie,
> questionable:
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards
TAP - 12 Sep 2004 04:57 GMT
Dean,
The Laserscope website never made such claims. It has never gone into
anything about how a patient would be after a PVP, except that a PVP will
open a channel less tramatically than a TURP.

I can ask Laserscope if they stated this on their website.

Note that I, along with many other people on this newsgroup, along many
other patients in testimonial letters and personal quotes about their
Laserscope PVP have said that they have been able to sleep through the night
six weeks or so after a PVP.  I know that I made that statement about my
post-PVP many times.

But that is far from Laserscope going on record saying that anybody or even
most people having a PVP will "sleep through the night 6 weeks after a PVP."
We all know that surely depends on the condition of the bladder six weeks
after a PVP.  Some men with badly damage baldders will never get to that
level of improvement.

One thing I know is that Laserscope went to great lengths in accepting only
those men in their trial (the first 146 men in the 80Watt trial) who would
benefit the most from the procedure.  So that is why these men, as a group,
had such wonderful results, i.e. they for the most part, presented with
terrible BPH conditions.  Large median lobes, high residual, large prostates
pushing into the bladder, failure with medications and TUMTs, etc.  But all
of these men had fully functioning bladders so the improvements from the PVP
procedure was dramatic.

Like I have said for several years now, the real benefit of PVP is when it
is done early before the bladder is damaged. When it is done early, the
operation is simple, recovery is fast and complete.

If PVP was available, I would have had mine about 3 to 5 years before I had
to have it in desparation.

Patrick

> Patrick
>          With respect to you, I'm not going to keep beating a dead horse but
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
Marcus - 12 Sep 2004 06:28 GMT
Patrick,

Try and differentiate between choosing to have the procedere and having
realistic expectations about the possible problems in recovery. For
instance, during my extremely difficult recovery  I was devastated by the
continued urgeny, frequency and pain. I could barely function. I consulted
another urologist, one who didn't perform the surgery. Here are his words:
"I wouldn't be too concerned because prostate surgery is still prostate
surgery and even with PVP it can take 3 months to recover from the worst of
it."

The jist of it is: Had that kind of forthright honesty been presented on
Laserscope's Web-Site, I would have dealt with the whole thing with more
patience and less devastating sense of being chronically miserable from the
post-surgical issues.
Had I known that it might take 3 months to get over the "worst of it" I may
very well have gone ahead with the surgery anyway...BUT I WOULD HAVE DEALT
WITH THE CRISIS WITH LESS, TENSION AND DESPAIR! It is my perception that
Laserscope was too busy selling the product to really give much attention to
those of us who didn't have the kind of easy recovery that you have
celebrated. Perhaps this NG is contributing to Laserscope's, ongoing
education.

Marcus

> Dean,
> The Laserscope website never made such claims. It has never gone into
[quoted text clipped - 85 lines]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards
Dean - 12 Sep 2004 13:37 GMT
Patrick,
      I  agree wholeheartedly with everything you say about the condition
of the bladder allowing you to sleep all night, it seems as if they
conveniently left that out but if you can ask them about the statement made
the summer of 2003 on their website about sleeping all night after six weeks
please do that for me and the rest of the newsgroup. I'm sure if they are as
honest as you believe them to be they will admit to it. I do not have this
statement on their website mixed up with your comments on your  previous
posts which I read with great interest.
Respectfully Dean,
> Dean,
> The Laserscope website never made such claims. It has never gone into
[quoted text clipped - 85 lines]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards
MB - 10 Sep 2004 06:32 GMT
Ah Marcus:

Great defender of freedom of speech on these boards:

I would suggest you be very careful about the charges you are making. You
are totally irresponsible and you may find yourself on the wrong end of a
lawsuit --- you have NO RIGHT to make such charges.

MB
> Maybe your're tired of the "diatribes" but readers new to the group
> haven't
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>> death already.  Take your whining somewhere else.  We've heard it all
>> before.
Marcus - 10 Sep 2004 16:41 GMT
Mel,

Indeed.......if only Laserscope was as careful in their promotions and
patient preperation
as we apparently must be in criticizing it.

Thanks for the heads up,

Marcus

> Ah Marcus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> >> death already.  Take your whining somewhere else.  We've heard it all
> >> before.
greg@invalid.com - 11 Sep 2004 13:24 GMT
>Is anyone else as tired of Marcus' diatribe as I am?  It's beaten it to
>death already.  Take your whining somewhere else.  We've heard it all
>before.

Who gave you the right to order other contributers ?

Who are the other members of the "We've heard .."   -  or are you
using the regal ' We'  ?

regards
Lee M. - 11 Sep 2004 14:19 GMT
Glad you could chime in with your usual pithy comments.  This would be a
dull place without you and Marcus providing so much useful information.  We
should be so lucky.

Have a great day.

>>Is anyone else as tired of Marcus' diatribe as I am?  It's beaten it to
>>death already.  Take your whining somewhere else.  We've heard it all
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> regards
dohlund - 11 Sep 2004 16:17 GMT
I too find them entertaining but I worry about the disservice to those here
in search of more.

> Glad you could chime in with your usual pithy comments.  This would be a
> dull place without you and Marcus providing so much useful information.  We
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> >
> > regards
 
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