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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / January 2005new BPH info web site
check out this web site..... http://www.enlargedprostateguide.com/ Looks like a Laserscope Greenlight PVP ad. I don't see any different information than any other BPH site except for frequent mention of Greenlight PVP. > check out this web site..... > > http://www.enlargedprostateguide.com/ I'll say ...........using the Men's Health Network as a cover for their advertising really is the epitome of arrogance. Laserscope has stooped to new lows. This new website was paid for by a grant. I'm wondering who granted what? Marcus > Looks like a Laserscope Greenlight PVP ad. I don't see any different > information than any other BPH site except for frequent mention of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > http://www.enlargedprostateguide.com/ You think they forced MHN at gunpoint or do you think just perhaps they offered to provide this resource in agreement with MHN with the tradeoff of prominently mentioning their products? You are a one trick pony Marcus. Jim W. > I'll say ...........using the Men's Health Network as a cover for their > advertising really is the epitome of arrogance. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > > > http://www.enlargedprostateguide.com/ You think they forced MHN at gunpoint or do you think just perhaps they > offered to provide this resource in agreement with MHN with the tradeoff of > prominently mentioning their products? You are a one trick pony Marcus. Jim > W. The only 'tricks' being played here are by people who must support their positions by resorting to personal castigations and puerile name calling. If you really think it is OK for organizations not to differentiate between truly independent studies and the monetary interests of medical corporations then I suggest you read up on this matter. There's lots of good, well researched literature concerning this issue. If you're interested I can suggest a few organizations and some literature. Marcus I presume there was an agreement between MHN and Laserscope. You don't have a divine right to private resources like an information web site. Many sites like this are sponsored by companies that produce products that treat the disease in question ( i.e. heartburn, roseacea,diabetes, allergies.etc.). Many of us find them helpful and are grownup enough to realize they often contain product marketing as well as general information - but are able to take that into consideration. Not you though I take it. Jim W. > You think they forced MHN at gunpoint or do you think just perhaps they > > offered to provide this resource in agreement with MHN with the tradeoff [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Marcus Wonder what he thinks about the drug companies, equipment manufacturers, government agencies, insurance companies and research centers that funded and developed dialysis, kidney transplant procedures, and anti rejection drugs? Wonder if he knows he would be dead without them? Wonder if he paid the several hundred thousand dollars his cost out of his own pocket - without benefit of any grant? Yes, there certainly is an epitome of arrogance somewhere in all this. > You think they forced MHN at gunpoint or do you think just perhaps they > offered to provide this resource in agreement with MHN with the tradeoff of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >>Marcus Jim W: I suspect your read on this is correct. BUT...THAT IS UNETHICAL in my book! There should be some kind of disclaimer/acknowledgement, etc. Of course, the "advertising" is pretty transparent. I mean look at the "personal stories." They are NOT personal general BPH stories; they Laserscope testimonials. I was not looking for nor expecting that. Mel > You think they forced MHN at gunpoint or do you think just perhaps they > offered to provide this resource in agreement with MHN with the tradeoff [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> > > >> > > http://www.enlargedprostateguide.com/ Marcus: Will miracles never cease: I just posted a response here and basically I totally agree with you! Mel > I'll say ...........using the Men's Health Network as a cover for their > advertising really is the epitome of arrogance. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> > >> > http://www.enlargedprostateguide.com/ Lee: EXACTLY. I've been a big supporter of PVP and Laserscope, but the site kind of bothered me. It really is basically a PVP Greenlight advertisement, but seems to pose as a neutral site. I'll be curious to see what others think (I fear I'm going to be sounding like Marcus on THIS issue! Mel > Looks like a Laserscope Greenlight PVP ad. I don't see any different > information than any other BPH site except for frequent mention of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> http://www.enlargedprostateguide.com/ All BPH treatments are mentioned as is a general discussion of the disease. Admittedly PVP was put in the most favorable light. If Laserscope is paying for the site what else would you expect. I admit I have a bias in having had a successful PVP and an unsuccessful Indigo and therefore seeing this as a public service as well as an obvious advertisement. Laserscope is a relatively small company with a great product that help millions of men lead a better life. They don't have the financial wherewithal of a J&J's [for example] advertising budget. We know that the therapies offered to patients are often decided by the investment decisions of surgeons. I'm happy to see Laserscope take every opportunity to educate and promote their product to PATIENTS so that surgeons can be influenced to provide new and better therapies. That's the bottom line for me. Jim W. > Lee: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >> > >> http://www.enlargedprostateguide.com/ Yes, it is Laserscope material exactly as it appears on the Laserscope website. Would you consider this educational information for BPH sufferers or advertisement? I consider it both. When I was suffering with BPH in 2001, information like this would have been a godsend. I think that MHN is providing their readers with a service by adding this material to their website under BPH. Whether MHN paid Laserscope or Laserccope paid MHN is irrelevant as the material is suppose to be educational to its readeers as well as imformative about the latest options in the treatment of BPH. I don't see any TURP, or TUNA or TUMT or BPH medication companies stepping up to providing much educational information to the BPH sufferer. If I had to guess, I would guess that Laserscope gave this information for inclusion into the MHN website free of charge and MHN accepted it as way to provide valuable information to its subscribers, sort of like what we all here on this newsgroup do for free and open communications. Patrick > Looks like a Laserscope Greenlight PVP ad. I don't see any different > information than any other BPH site except for frequent mention of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > http://www.enlargedprostateguide.com/ Pat and Jim: Let me answer you this way, by making an analogy. Suppose there was a site, say The Pain Relief Network. Clearly, one would look at this site with an interest towards pain relief. Now, we go to the site and we see a link, First Person Stories. We go there and ALL the stories are about how Bayer Aspirin provided just absolutely wonderful relief. Let's also pretend, in this scenario, that Bayer really is the newest and probably best treatment but that there are many competing modalities/products. Now, if I am going to this site, I really expect a discussion of a variety of products and personal stories should vary. NOW, is I go to the Bayer site, sure I expect to see pro-Bayer stuff, probably to the exclusion of other products. But NOT on this general pain relief site. (Note: if the site did indicate it was supported by Bayer, then I would have no problems). I hope that makes my thoughts a bit clearer on this. Mel > Yes, it is Laserscope material exactly as it appears on the Laserscope > website. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> > >> > http://www.enlargedprostateguide.com/ Yes, I understand it and a see a lot of info-ads like that. I found the asthma medicine Advair like that. They had an informational site on the management of asthma. There was a lot of good quality information on it. In the end, it says how the medicine Advair can help. I found everything that they said to be factual and information and I even found the medicine to be effective. Do you see another way to get the information into the hands of those who really need it? I find info-ads like this much better than the cartoon-like go see your doctor ads. Patrick > Pat and Jim: > [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] >>> > >>> > http://www.enlargedprostateguide.com/ Patrick: Don't have a site masquerading as a general site when it is really a one-company site. I don't mine advertisement/publicity, but it is unethical when it is couched as a "information site." Another analogy: think of the infomercials on TV. At the start it at least says (even if it is just for a few seconds) that the following is a paid commercial. The websites that do this should meet the same requirement. You don't seem to agree. Mel > Yes, I understand it and a see a lot of info-ads like that. > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] >>>> > >>>> > http://www.enlargedprostateguide.com/ Mel, I agree with you that the BPH section of the MHN site should say something like "sponsored or complements of the Laserscope Corporation" either at the beginning or the end. Patrick > Patrick: > [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] >>>>> > >>>>> > http://www.enlargedprostateguide.com/ As I mentioned earlier this is not at all uncommon - try heartburn, roseacea, allergy, cholesterol info sites and you will find they are sponsored by a particular drug that is prominently mentioned as is general information about the disease. We are not children - we can see for ourselves the architecture of such sites. I find them useful but only a fool would make a medical decision based on an infomercial web site. They do provide initial information when first researching a disease but they are really just designed for that purpose. Obviously the sponsor hopes to get a leg up in your continuing research but I don't find that objectionable in any way. Jim W. > Pat and Jim: > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > >> > > >> > http://www.enlargedprostateguide.com/ I have relative little problem with 'infomercials' as long as it's entirely clear that's what they are. However, the BPH section of the ProstateHealthGuide.com site purports to be an objective guide, when it is clearly nothing of the kind. Not only are all the 'patient stories' about PVP, as already pointed out, but the 'Find a Doctor' page contains an entirely gratuitous reference to the PVP procedure, when no other specific treatment is mentioned. And it's strange, isn't it, that *all* the other sections of the guide - including the basic one on 'The Prostate' itself - are still 'under construction'. A very odd order of priorities in the development of the website. The whole thing, if genuine, would be so ill-advised (especially after all the correspondence about Laserscope's marketing in this group) that it is tempting to suspect some kind of attempt to smear PVP with a dirty tricks campaign - but Patrick appears to be implying Laserscope *were* involved? And if the Men's Health Network - which seems to be the well-established and otherwise reputable organisation the ProstateHealthGuide.com site says it is - is a party to the website as the wording on the site implies, it needs urgently to rethink a very bad decision. Richard Slessor Richard, I looked over the MHN website. It is a very good informational website on all subjects of Men's health. MHN's stated goal is to be an informational and educational website on important items in Men's health. It gets this information from , doctor's hospitals, research centers, universities, and companies. The following is from the MHN website: The Men's Health Library provides access to government and private sector publications, reports, and analyses that pertain to health, social science, and gender issues. Use the search capability to search by keywords. You may use this page to search the entire library, or choose a category to search. For best results, search from this page and not by categories. If you wish to submit a document, choose a category and then use the "Submit a Document" link at the bottom of the page to submit your document. It will be reviewed by the Men's Health Library editorial board. You will be notified if the document is added to the Library. When you do a search on enlarged prostate or BPH or prostate in general one of the many links that appear is "enlarged prostate guide" which is obviously written, operated, and maintained by Laserscope. There are many other links to other material on BPH from other sources. In summary, I believe that MHN is living up to its charter to be a source of information on men's health issue. And I beleive that Laserscope is one of the many companies on the MHN that is proving accurate, factual information on BPH and the PVP procedure. I think both are doing the general public a service for providing this information. Patrick >I have relative little problem with 'infomercials' as long as it's > entirely clear that's what they are. However, the BPH section of the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Richard Slessor The problem is precisely that it would *not* necessarily be obvious to most people that the material on the EnlargedProstateGuide.com site is an infomercial. I can find no indication either on that site or on the purported parent site ProstateHealthGuide.com (which in reality seems to exist only as a shell) that the site is any kind of infomercial - whereas the MHN logo is prominently displayed on every page together with their contact information. It therefore gives every indication of being a website put up by a well-established and reputable independent organisation. (I agree that MHN's own main website appears to be useful.) I repeat what I said previously - if MHN agreed to their logo being used in that way, seeming to endorse a website which promotes particular laser equipment, it was a very bad decision. (If they didn't, I would expect them to be quite angry about it.) Richard Slessor Pat: Actually, that's the whole point. The site appears to be a good general site, but then when we get to the patient stories, etc. it becomes an infomercial. As I said (and I think you agreed), if they would just identify it that way (like the infomercials on TV) then I'd have no objection. Anyway, I think this subject has been beaten into the ground! Mel > Richard, > I looked over the MHN website. It is a very good informational website on [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] >> >> Richard Slessor Mel, I really don't know who or what this Men's Health Network is or what there modivations are. But it does seem like a good site to go to learn about health issues effecting men. I just went to it for a non-prostate issue and found it to be a good starting point. Patrick > Pat: > [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] >>> >>> Richard Slessor Perhaps Patrick can contact the MHN and suggest they be more forthcoming? Marcus > I have relative little problem with 'infomercials' as long as it's > entirely clear that's what they are. However, the BPH section of the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Richard Slessor Marcus, I don't know anybody at MHN, never dealt with them. But they seem pretty forthcoming to me. I added their website to my favorites and will look there from any other men's health issues that may come up for either myself, my sons, and male friends and relatives. Patrick > Perhaps Patrick can contact the MHN and suggest they be more forthcoming? > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> >> Richard Slessor I certainly agree with Mel that we don't want this thread to turn into the kind of pingpong game we get a little too often between Marcus and Patrick. But I'd like to hope that Laserscope will take note of what has been said here - by Patrick among others - and make it clear on the site that www.enlargedprostateguide.com is their website, hosted on their server. At the moment there is no indication of their involvement, but a very prominent mention of MHN on every page; the overall impression given is of a neutral and objective site established by an independent organisation, and that is definitely misleading. The website is an example of what, in magazines, is called these days an 'advertorial'. Any reputable magazine which prints one always labels it clearly as such. On the Web there is no editor to insist on such things, so the onus is on ethical advertisers to do it themselves. I hope Laserscope will want to see itself as that kind of ethical advertiser. I remain convinced that on current evidence PVP is a real step forward in treating BPH - even Marcus is on record as agreeing that, for many people at least, it is probably the best current option. I think it would be a real pity if ill-advised marketing decisions hurt the reputation of 'GreenLight' both with the medical profession and with informed laymen who might otherwise continue to be its ambassadors - as they have in this group in the past. Richard Slessor My opinion is it's a moot point. Very soon PVP will be the gold standard for BPH surgery and there will be little need to advertise to patients. How many TURP ads do you see? Jim W. > I certainly agree with Mel that we don't want this thread to turn into > the kind of pingpong game we get a little too often between Marcus and [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Richard Slessor Well Jim: Since it is a cleverly disguised Laserscope site, I don't think you would see any TURP ads!!! (But, I agree, PVP is clearly superior to TURP) Mel > My opinion is it's a moot point. Very soon PVP will be the gold standard > for BPH surgery and there will be little need to advertise to patients. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >> >> Richard Slessor meant anywhere > Well Jim: > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > >> > >> Richard Slessor Richard: I couldn't agree more! Mel >I certainly agree with Mel that we don't want this thread to turn into > the kind of pingpong game we get a little too often between Marcus and [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Richard Slessor I find the patient stories very informative. It is sad, but it seems that often fully informed patients may know more than a busy practitioner about their conditions..... > Richard: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> >>Richard Slessor Richard, I agree with you. The more I think about it, it seems like it is a Laserscope site, so why doesn't laserscope just say that. I can't figure out what they are doing. They are advertising a lot in senior's magazine and such so why don't they just advertize their site? Patrick >I certainly agree with Mel that we don't want this thread to turn into > the kind of pingpong game we get a little too often between Marcus and [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Richard Slessor Now that we all agree, let's end this thread! Mel > Richard, > I agree with you. The more I think about it, it seems like it is a [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> >> Richard Slessor |
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