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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / June 2004Just had Greenlight laser
4 days ago, I had the procedure. I would like to report on it and maybe get some of your comments. Operation took about an hour, the Doc said prostrate was larger than expected. Stayed overnight. They took out catheter next day, and the first stream, I made on my own was very strong. I might add that was the strongest and since then (for 4 days) it returned back to slow. Maybe this is normal. When I got home, day 2, I found myself having to go every 10-15 minutes. Day 3, I was going every half hour. I suppose this is normal progression because everything is swollen. Now it is day 4 and I am going about every hour. What bothers me is the stream is still weak and I am not emptying the bladder.. Why was it so strong right after the catheter came out? And, why am I still urinating so often. Thank God for Ativan, it helps me sleep at night! Might call the Doc today. I will keep you all up to date. Any comments? I don't want to discourage you, but you should not get your hopes up too high. I'm post PVP eight months and have no continued improvement at all in flow, volume, nighttime urination, or frequency. The only lasting results of the procedure are retro ejaculation and reduced control - I dribble a bit before I get to the stool. This is new to me. I had a short period of improvement in the first couple of months after the PVP, but have regressed since then. Pardon my pun, but am I pissed! I hope you have better luck. Terry Terry, Frankly, Laserscope should be sued for their misleading advertising. I don't know what your specific issue is or who performed the surgery, but I went through hell for over 2 months following my PVP. It's taken 6 months for all symptoms to subside. Laserscope sells this procedure as if it were a walk in the park. They shouldn't get away with it. It only exacerbates the misery of the recovery period...at least for a "significant minority" of its patients...and that could be thousands of patients expecting, but not experiencing, a return to "normal" in a week or two. Hopefully you can get some answers concerning your particularly lengthy and troublesome post-surgical issues. There are people posting to this group who suggest that anyone experiencing problems with PVP is either paranoid or a troublemaker. Don't let these bloviating cheerleaders for Laserscope discourage you from understanding that you are one of that significant minority who are not experiencing the trouble-free scenario that they are marketing. Best of luck getting some good answers about your health. Marcus > I don't want to discourage you, but you should not get your hopes up > too high. I'm post PVP eight months and have no continued improvement [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Terry Some doctors have good results and others don't. Might that be a clue also? Gene www.photoprojects.net > Terry, > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > > > Terry Marcus: Thanks for the support. I suspect that there quite a few of us who haven't had the good fortune to benefit from the PVP. I must admit that I wasn't led down the garden path by my Uro, who warned me that the procedure was new and had little track record. Still, it's hard for me not to whine and sulk, at least for a little while. I'll get over the blues pretty quick and then look for something else. Good luck to you and any others who aren't feeling too good about their outcomes. Terry Marcus Same with TUMT. They show people reading during the procedure and say that you may feel a little heat. They also say you can return to work after a few days. For me, the heat was OK but the bladder spasms that the heat causes were quite uncomfortable. However, the procedure only lasted an hour and was quite mild compared to other types of medical procedures. The worst part of the whole process was having a catheder in for the following 7 days. The bladder spasms got better over time but I could hardly wait to get it out (the spasms stopped after the catheder was removed). After the first week, there was some discomfort and I thought that something was wrong since the literature seemed to indicate that everything should be fine after a few days. Turns out that some pain is normal. Even though I am very happy with the results (I now sleep through the night and can pee about 500 cc), It took about a month before I felt normal. ie no discomfort, strong flow, etc. I am glad I am retired. I would not have wanted to go to work for the first couple of weeks after the procedure. If the information I received had been a little more realistic, my recovery would have been much easier. Chris Bennett On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 00:22:26 GMT, "Marcus" <orealius@comcast.net> wrote: >Terry, > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> >> Terry Chris: I am a 60 yr old scheduled for a TUMT in Portland, OR July 2. My uro, Dr McCoy uses Prostatron, TherMatrx, Green Light Laser, and Indigo laser. When I asked him knowing what he knows about all the procedures and knowing what he does about me, what would he chose? Without a pause, he recommended TUMT. My question...in light of your statement that had the information you received had been more realistic, your recovery would have been better, what would you advise me? What are the do's and don'ts that you would advise? chockman@canby.com > Marcus > [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] >>> >>>Terry My advise would be to go into TUMT knowing that there may be some discomfort and mild pain. The procedure was not that big a deal. I took some Advil for a couple of weeks for the discomfort. Usually at night. I only wish the catheter could have been removed much quicker. It was the cause of most of the pain during the week I wore it. First, from bladder spasms that occurred when I emptied the bag, and second when I woke up with nocturnal erections (the penis gets longer but the catheter doesn't want to! Chris Bennett >Chris: > [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] >>>> >>>>Terry > I had a short period of improvement in the first couple of months > after the PVP, but have regressed since then. Although after 3 months a flow-rate test showed same amount as pre-PVP but in half the time (I never had hosepipe flow), it has now (after 5 months) reverted to pre-PVP rates, complete with hesitation and start/stopping. Difficult to understand how it can do this... Anyone else had this?  SignatureMaurice Batey (Retired in Hampshire, UK) www.maurice.eurobell.co.uk (Remove 'antispam.' to reply) Just curious as to what the doctor told you to expect post-op. If your symptoms are significantly different from your expectations, why are you waiting before calling him? If he's a decent doctor, he should be as concerned about your recovery (or lack thereof) as he was about the procedure itself. Good luck. > 4 days ago, I had the procedure. I would like to report on it and maybe get > some of your comments. Operation took about an hour, the Doc said prostrate [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > helps me sleep at night! Might call the Doc today. I will keep you all up > to date. Any comments? It has now been 6 days and things are all GRADUALLY improving. My doc told me, yesterday that it could take 4-6 weeks before I see strong results. Apparently it takes quite a while for the swelling to go down. For those who have complained about spasms and urgency, you might try Percocet (small dose of 1/2 of a 500MG tablet). It worked great for me. Of course, check with your doc first. Now I'm only taking it once a day. I also agree that the advertising is bogus! CB Maurice, I'm quite interested as I've just put the wheels in motion for a possible PVP (here in the UK). What does your Doc/Uro say? Has the bladder neck/prostate grown back? Interesting to know how other UK guys have fared, I assume OK as Derry & Co have been pretty quiet on this forum. Magna > What does your Doc/Uro say? Has the > bladder neck/prostate grown back? Waiting for uro's response to email. I'm also queued for a cystoscpopy next month so that should be illuminating. (Need to check that 2 mini-pre-tumours found & removed during PVP have not recurred.) The PVP itself was a breeze - 24 hours after PVP I walked to the train station and caught the next train home. Bleeding had already stopped. And no pain felt - just vague discomfort at first. Even the overnight catheter didn't bother me - in fact it was a treat to be able to gulp down hot chocolate at bedtime without worrying about getting up during the night! (It's an ill wind...) SignatureMaurice Batey (Retired in Hampshire, UK) www.maurice.eurobell.co.uk (Remove 'antispam.' to reply) Remember that chocolate contains caffine - Not the best thing to take before going to sleep. But I'm glad - you seem to be able to handle it. Ron > From: Maurice Batey <maurice@eurobell.co.uk> > Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > hot chocolate at bedtime without worrying about getting up during the > night! (It's an ill wind...) > What does your Doc/Uro say? Has the > bladder neck/prostate grown back? Uro 'phoned this morning. Suspects it is either scar tissue or a 'web' tissue across the urethra. Former can be cut out (little blood supply in scar tissue), latter can be pushed through and cleared. Will fit me in in the next few days. Can do bladder check at same time. No way things could have 'grown back' in 5 months, he says. SignatureMaurice Batey (Retired in Hampshire, UK) www.maurice.eurobell.co.uk (Remove 'antispam.' to reply) > Maurice, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Magna i had PVP in July 2003 ........almost textbook recovery although pulling sensation for some 3 months but flow was hosepipe from straight after the op Gordon Muir at Kings College did my PVP and Derrys .......he sure has lots of experience and is a great URO > For those who have complained about spasms and urgency, you might try > Percocet (small dose of 1/2 of a 500MG tablet). It worked great for me. Of > course, check with your doc first. Now I'm only taking it once a day. > > I also agree that the advertising is bogus! CB CB, I'm 10 days post PVP and heading to see the doc for a follow-up before a long business trip. I wish I could say that I'm seeing a big improvement, but that's not the case...yet (I hope). Just a word about using Percocet (a Schedule II narcotic) to tame ones bladder spasms: I am a former pain management patient and have some first hand experience with narcotics and their effects (battle damage). You're right that Percocet (oxycodone) will do what you say, however, it will do a lot of other things as well, some good, many bad. I'm not a doctor, so anyone considering this should review these things with their doctor. Other than the obvious concerns about a small percentage (3% or so) becoming dependent with chronic use, oxycodone, and other opioid analgesics lower the pituitary's release of luetinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH). This doesn't sound bad until you realize that both of these are the testicle's heralds for how much testosterone to make. Testosterone is involved in almost every aspect of male physiology and psychology. It's the primary anabolic hormone (and thus accelerates healing), an antidepressant, and many other things. Opioids also slow down the intestines natural rythym and users frequently need laxatives because those "spasms" are desired. They also tell the brain to stop producing the body's natural pain killers (endorphins and others) because the brain senses the elevated levels of opioids as a signal to shut that system down. Simply: Opioids will lower testosterone and shut down natural pain killing systems. Opioid analgesics are excellent for their intended purpose, but should be used with extreme caution and medical supervision. Treating chronic conditions (bladder spasms) other than non-responsive pain with them may be setting up the user for a host of other issues, some worse than the primary condition. Good luck and thanks for the information, I just thought I'd throw in a caveat before someone raided the medicine cabinet and started down a long dirt road. R I also agree that the advertising is bogus! CB Actually, you should have seen it a few months ago... before they added some caveats to their rave evaluations. I tried to talk to Laserscope on the phone about this issue (exaggerated claims...inadequate preparation for the patients who do not experience quick recovery) back in April. They just hung up on me. They should be sued. Anyone interested? Marcus > > For those who have complained about spasms and urgency, you might try > > Percocet (small dose of 1/2 of a 500MG tablet). It worked great for me. Of [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > R I'd be surprised if you could get a lawyer to take the case and if you could, I'll bet the judge would throw it out. > I also agree that the advertising is bogus! CB > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Marcus > I'd be surprised if you could get a lawyer to take the case and if you > could, I'll bet the judge would throw it out. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > Marcus Isn't it like the 100 or more restaurants that claim to have the "worlds best hamburger?" Liz: I agree to a degree. We know that "puffery" occurs when advertising products. It is considered legal. With medical devices, I'm sure more caution is in order. HOWEVER, that being said, it would be interesting to see what the data shows, assuming there is some reliable data. Marcus: you have posted many times with this same theme. However, while YOU claim the site is just not telling the whole story, YOU also are not telling the whole story. As I recall, you have a variety of serious medical problems (transplant along with associated medications) that could well be a contributing factor in your situation. Please correct if I am mistaken about your medical situation. All that being said, having read the posts over quite a few years (and suffering with BPH), I would go the PVP route if surgery was called for. But, having read the posts, I am not going to jump into this until my symptoms warrant it (others who have had great success keep urging everyone to go PVP --- I'm of the opinion that this is not a guaranteed success and so one should weigh matters carefully before proceeding). What I have done is connected with a PVP uro who will monitor my progress and so if things suddenly go south, I will at least be in line for this procedure. We have no local PVP experts at this time and my big fear was going into major retention and being pressured (while in misery) to have some other procedure locally. Mel > > I'd be surprised if you could get a lawyer to take the case and if you > > could, I'll bet the judge would throw it out. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Isn't it like the 100 or more restaurants that claim to have the > "worlds best hamburger?" I've continued to monitor PVP postings over the past few months, and haven't seen anything to change the suggestion I posted back in February: "Perhaps we can all agree that most people seem to do very well very quickly after PVP; that a fairly small minority don't (and we can usefully explore why here); that it's nevertheless probably the best current bet; and that Laserscope will increase their credibility if they keep *all* their marketing honest and attuned to a reasonably sophisticated and knowledgeable market, which will either get annoyed by puffery, exaggeration and oversimplification or (possibly even worse) just laugh at it." In other words, I agree with two or three people who have said in various threads over the last few days that PVP certainly isn't a miracle solution for BPH, but that for those otherwise facing a TURP it shows great promise currently of offering similar results for less trauma. That's not to say it's the only solution; for some people drugs and even herbal supplements may do an acceptable job (at least for a long time, though maybe not indefinitely), and the various forms of radio frequency treatment are worth considering. My own feeling, based mainly on postings here - and my own sample of one! - is that the positive effects of the latter may not last very long; but as I've said here before, for all I know we may not be hearing about a host of longterm successes with Targis, Prostatron, TUNA etc. If anyone currently has a bit more time than I do, they could do us all a useful service by doing an Internet search for recent reports in the medical literature on the durability of radio frequency therapies for BPH, and reporting back to us; PubMed would be a good place to start. About six months after PVP, my own flow is currently good and I no longer (thank goodness) have the urgency I experienced for several weeks after the procedure; that was a very nasty shock, as I'd never had any pre-PVP. It looks as though I'm going to be one of those (about a third, it seems?) who have lasting retro, but I can't say I find that a major problem. (If I had any plans to father children, I might take a different view, though it only makes the process rather more complicated.) I'm sorry to hear Maurice is having problems, which do sound as if they may be caused by some kind of stricture; that's always a possibility after any instrument has been used for work through the urethra. It will be interesting to hear what his doctor finds. Richard Slessor I would amend your description of the "very small minority" who experience problems with PVP to: "a significant minority." These are the words of my surgeon, Dr. Collins coming to grips with the reality of PVP. He, unlike Laserscope, at least has the decency to be honest. Marcus > I've continued to monitor PVP postings over the past few months, and > haven't seen anything to change the suggestion I posted back in [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Richard Slessor > I would amend your description of the "very small minority" who experience > problems with PVP to: [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > might take a different view, though it only makes the process rather > > more complicated.) I just got back from seeing my urologist and the way he put it was (for the green light laser procedure that is similar to TURP) "you will have retrograde ejaculation" -- note he used the word WILL. He also said that it is "ok as long as I don't want to have more children." > > I'm sorry to hear Maurice is having problems, which do sound as if > > they may be caused by some kind of stricture; that's always a > > possibility after any instrument has been used for work through the > > urethra. It will be interesting to hear what his doctor finds. > > > > Richard Slessor > I agree to a degree. We know that "puffery" occurs when > advertising products. It is considered legal. Puffing is completely legal, mis-representation is not. It sometimes requires a court to determine the line between the two. One nice thing in the real estate business, the line is VERY clearly defined, new agents are carefully taught what may be said and what may not be said. I believe in the medical profession the line is not clearly defined? All that you say makes sense. That's why I suggested a very small dose and use only when absolutely needed. CB > 4 days ago, I had the procedure. I would like to report on it and maybe get > some of your comments. Operation took about an hour, the Doc said prostrate [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > helps me sleep at night! Might call the Doc today. I will keep you all up > to date. Any comments? probably just the tissue reaction to the laser Take Homeopathic Arnica that will soon heal things ...........it will soon improve >4 days ago, I had the procedure. I would like to report on it and maybe get >some of your comments. Operation took about an hour, the Doc said prostrate [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >helps me sleep at night! Might call the Doc today. I will keep you all up >to date. Any comments? From the responses you are getting, it is clear that there are a number of variations in outcomes to this procedure, the most obvious being with the patient and the doctor. We do not all have the same prostate or problems; we do not all respond the same to surgery; and of course all doctors are not equally proficient in this procedure. I had an enormous gland that required five hours on the slab, but I had no pain or even discomfort afterwards. Flow was strong from beginning and became better over time. It took about a month for the superficial healing to complete--that is, no blood in urine. Since then, all has been quite satisfactory--I can go at least five hours between voiding in the daytime, and my bladder is gradually increasing its capacity. And my general sense of well-being is much improved over pre-PVP days. Dick SignatureRichard F. Somer I have always made it a rule never to smoke more than one pipe at the same time. (adapted from Mark Twain) It is now 10 days since procedure. Off all medications and I am not to full "stream" yet. Doc says that will take a couple of weeks at least. Only negative experience I'm having is a tinge of blood at the end of urination. Will be seeing Doc next Monday. Update...It's been 2 weeks and just got back from Doc. Only problem I'm having is blood in urine at the beginning and ending of peeing. He said this happens many times and not to be concerned. The stream is not at full strength, but he said that will also take a while. Some minor urgency feeling some days, but I find that Tylenol relieves that. Everything else seems fine. I had my PVP 10 months ago. For a while I could pee like a power washer! this subsided over several months. I still have a good stream but not like the day after the surgery. It takes a while for the bladder to get the idea that it's OK to hold off for while when there is some pee in it. Now I sleep through the night and I'm not in a panic when I go to the bathroom. If I'm out some where and public bath room is occupied, I can put it off until I get home a couple hours later. It was not that way prior to PVP. It takes a while to get everything under control but it happens. Good Luck. Dave > 4 days ago, I had the procedure. I would like to report on it and maybe get > some of your comments. Operation took about an hour, the Doc said prostrate [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > helps me sleep at night! Might call the Doc today. I will keep you all up > to date. Any comments? |
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