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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / December 2003

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Just home from PVP - UK

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Derry Argue - 06 Dec 2003 00:41 GMT
I got home about an hour ago after a 10 hour trip by rail from
London following a PVP at King's College Hospital by Gordon
Muir.

I travelled down on the 2nd December from Inverness to London
(600 miles?) to arrive around 8pm ready for PVP at 7.30am at
King's College Hospital on the 3rd.

I didn't sleep much on the night of the 1st as I was worried I
might miss the train which departed at 9.20am from Inverness,
a 40 miles drive by road from my home. Didn't sleep much on the
night of the 2nd either as I can't sleep in a strange bed and I
was concerned I might miss the 7.30am appointment at the
hospital the next morning!

Anyway, arrived at King's around 7am and was called through to
the ward spot on 7.30am. There I had the obligatory blood
pressure tests, etc. and finally was taken through to surgery
around 10am. (I was 2nd in the queue -- four cases scheduled for
that day).

I can honestly say the most painful part prior surgery was the
anaesthetist sticking the needle in the back of my hand! (A pin
prick).  After that, all I can remember is waking up back in the
ward about 1.75 hours later. That appears to be about the norm.
My prostate was 75 grams.

Muir and his surgeon colleague, a Mr Cutting (!), both came
through to see me before the operation and I was also delighted
to meet Mike Degun, UK sales manager for Laserscope, for the
first time. I have had a correspondence with Mike over several
months so I feel we are old friends. I explained to Mike that I
have a 26 year old girl friend and was concerned to keep the
bladder neck in tact!! (Not too keen on retro).  This seemed to
amuse him (can't think why!<G> I'm only 63!) and he promised to
explain the position to Muir and see what could be done.

After the op, Muir came through and said he had left as much of
the bladder neck as he could but as a result I might expect some
bleeding as he was not able to cauterize all of the blood
vessels.

I think I should say that the worst parts of the op for me were
the after effects of the anaesthetic but even that was not much
worse than being slightly drunk. I felt very cold and shivery
after coming out of theatre but the nursing staff are very
professional. Those just out of theatre are swathed in those
silver paper-like thermal blankets and given buttered toast and
hot drinks. Anyway, by early afternoon I had recovered enough
for my brother to be called to take me back to his flat by car
which is about 10 minutes from the hospital. Patients are not
allowed to leave unaccompanied after a general anaesthetic which
is fair enough in the circumstances.

I left hospital around 4.30pm with a catheter and was allowed to
go "home" as soon as the urine was reasonably clear. This
occurred after drinking fairly large qualities of liquid. The
catheter causes minimal discomfort but nips a bit if it is
"pulled" as it is held in place in the bladder by a small bulb
on the end full of water.

Actually, the catheter is something I could have got quite fond
of! I had better explain! After having had urination problems
for over four years it was one hell of a relief to be able to go
to the toilet and simply run off the urine whenever I felt the
bag was full!<G> Quite a contrast to going to the toilet for a
long wait with marginal results!<G>

With all the travelling and disturbance to my usual routine I
found I was constipated. If I had known what to expect, I would
have gone on a high fibre diet. But when I got back to my
brother's flat, I went to the toilet and attempted to defecate.
This was partially successful but the straining appeared to
cause some haemorrhage as later that evening the fluid in the
bag was very red. This was rather worrying but I continued to
drink lots of fluids and by morning it was back to pink.

I was due to return to the hospital at 10 am next day when the
catheter was removed. This was not much more unpleasant than the
initial injection and I was rather amused when the nurse
apologized for tearing some sticking plaster off my wrist,
pulling body hair in the process, as that didn't hurt much
either!

Frankly, PVP is virtually painless. I was allowed home after
urinating twice when the urine was judged to be clear. I walked
home (1/2 mile) by myself and felt fine though I did look very
carefully each way before crossing any roads. I was still
feeling the combined effects of lack of sleep and the general
anaesthetic.

As a self confessed coward, I can honestly say that having a PVP
at King's was a dawdle. The earlier biopsy at my local hospital
was far more unpleasant so that I had insisted on some sort of
anaesthetic for the second biopsy. That time they had given me a
general anaesthetic and kept me in for two nights! If anyone
reading this has concerns about having a PVP, all I can say is
that it is less unpleasant than going to the dentist to get a
tooth filled -- and the results are truly wonderful! A TURP?
Doesn't even bear thinking about!

If anyone has any questions, I will be delighted to answer them.
Now I am back home, I feel fine. The acid test came when I had
to go to the toilet on the train (only twice in a 10 hour trip -
- how about that?).

I came out of that toilet laughing! I kid you not! With the
train swaying from side to side at 80mph+ I hit the pan dead
centre and my flow was steady and sustained -- like I remember
it used to be about 8 years ago! It was a truly gratifying
experience!

Everyone's experience of BPH is different. I have never
experienced the urgency and frequency others complain about but
the slowness had got so bad I was convinced I would go into
retention just days before the operation. Now I feel 100%
normal.

BTW, I carried my bag on the tube across London without a
problem and while I have no intentions of doing any heavy
labour, I feel confident everything will be just fine so long as
I do not do anything that could be described as "very heavy
lifting" in the information sheet supplied by King's. Having
said that, I probably ought to add that as a farmer I am
normally pretty active and quite fit.

Last, I have no connection with the Laserscope company but I
will be writing up my experiences for the newspapers as I have
always intended. I hope this helps those who are as yet
undecided.

Derry
Art - 06 Dec 2003 02:32 GMT
I'm happy to hear of your successful PVP. I'm convinced that PVP is my
best option. Reading about experiences like this helps to build the
courage and resolve to proceed.

Thanks and all the best. I'll be watching for the follow ups.

Art

> I got home about an hour ago after a 10 hour trip by rail from
> London following a PVP at King's College Hospital by Gordon
> Muir.
>......
dohlund - 06 Dec 2003 03:01 GMT
Thanks for the wonderful write up.  Glad to hear about another successful
PVP (aren't they all?) and a happy camper.

A suggestion for those having anesthesia,  take a stool softener before,
something like Dulcolax.  The anesthesia slows down the bowels and can cause
constipation.

Dennis

> I got home about an hour ago after a 10 hour trip by rail from
> London following a PVP at King's College Hospital by Gordon
[quoted text clipped - 128 lines]
>
> Derry
Pitlockery - 10 Dec 2003 08:36 GMT
On 6/12/03 2:01 PM, in article SDbAb.313096$ao4.1067579@attbi_s51, "dohlund"

> Thanks for the wonderful write up.  Glad to hear about another successful
> PVP (aren't they all?) and a happy camper.

What news of Haditdone?

> A suggestion for those having anesthesia,  take a stool softener before,
> something like Dulcolax.  The anesthesia slows down the bowels and can cause
[quoted text clipped - 134 lines]
>>
>> Derry
Patrick - 06 Dec 2003 14:16 GMT
Derry,
You had to wait the longest for a PVP.  I am so glad you have finally got it
and it worked out for you.

Best wishes for a quick recovery.

Patrick

> I got home about an hour ago after a 10 hour trip by rail from
> London following a PVP at King's College Hospital by Gordon
[quoted text clipped - 128 lines]
>
> Derry
Lee M. - 06 Dec 2003 14:24 GMT
I want to know more about the 26 year old girlfriend<g>.

> Muir and his surgeon colleague, a Mr Cutting (!), both came
> through to see me before the operation and I was also delighted
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> amuse him (can't think why!<G> I'm only 63!) and he promised to
> explain the position to Muir and see what could be done.
bnd777 - 06 Dec 2003 17:57 GMT
Me too !!!!!!!!

> I want to know more about the 26 year old girlfriend<g>.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > amuse him (can't think why!<G> I'm only 63!) and he promised to
> > explain the position to Muir and see what could be done.
Derry Argue - 06 Dec 2003 18:04 GMT
One thing I forgot. It does sting a bit the first time you pee
after the catheter is removed. But this was no worse than I
experienced after the biopsy. So there is nothing at all to
worry about. Just keep drinking lots of fluids.

Spoke to a friend today who had the heart by-pass operation. He
reckons my slight wooziness is due to the general anaesthetic
and says it takes about a week to wear off. That makes sense now
I come to think about it.

Derry
Derry Argue - 06 Dec 2003 18:00 GMT
> I want to know more about the 26 year old girlfriend<g>.

Go get your own!!<VBG>

Derry
Lee M. - 06 Dec 2003 20:21 GMT
I would but I don't think my wife of 30 years would approve!

> > I want to know more about the 26 year old girlfriend<g>.
>
> Go get your own!!<VBG>
>
> Derry
Derek F - 06 Dec 2003 20:18 GMT
Tall, good looking, rich, cultured Englishmen are a rarity and much sought
after commodity Easter Ross:-)
Derek.
> I want to know more about the 26 year old girlfriend<g>.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > amuse him (can't think why!<G> I'm only 63!) and he promised to
> > explain the position to Muir and see what could be done.
lightshow - 06 Dec 2003 23:45 GMT
> I got home about an hour ago after a 10 hour trip by rail from
> London following a PVP at King's College Hospital by Gordon
[quoted text clipped - 128 lines]
>
> Derry

I have followed your Posts since your first one, and am pleased for
you,and the twenty-? year old too. <bfg
Derek F - 07 Dec 2003 01:15 GMT
Great stuff Derry but it turns out you need not have travelled so far. PVP
is now available on the NHS in Dundee, see my post "No PVP or Avodart in
Edinburgh"
Derek.
> I got home about an hour ago after a 10 hour trip by rail from
> London following a PVP at King's College Hospital by Gordon
[quoted text clipped - 128 lines]
>
> Derry
Magna - 07 Dec 2003 09:48 GMT
Well Done and congratulations Derry. Try to get it in the National
Press if Possible, let us know when and where it will be published.
Having just seen my Uro I think I'm a litle way off yet but sooner or
later.... and this group has convinced me that PVP is the way to go!
Keep us up to date with developments.

PS can I suggest as a newcomer to this group that when posting a
follow up message usres delete what already appears inthe box so as
only the new comments appear?? this will avoid all this repetition.

Magna
mada@ warmale.com - 07 Dec 2003 23:20 GMT
>I got home about an hour ago after......

SNIP

>I didn't sleep much on the night of the.....

SNip
> Didn't sleep much on the

>night of the 2nd either as I can't sleep in a strange bed and I
>was concerned

SNIP
I might miss the 7.30am appointment at the
>hospital the next morning!
>
>Anyway, arrived at King's

SNIP

>I went to the toilet and attempted to defecate.

EVERYONE  please concentrate .............

>This was partially successful but

SNIP another painful boring ......but then these partially succesful
defecations  ... don't we all know them  ?

>As a self confessed coward  and confused old man
> A TURP Doesn't even bear thinking about!

SNIP!  - say no more

>Everyone's experience of BPH is different. I

therefore my experience is applicable to all of you.

Impeccable logic ?

>Last, I have no connection with the Laserscope company
Another one of THEM or am I merely one of the confused old men?
 
SNIP

>but I will be writing up my experiences for the newspapers as I have
>always intended.

The readers of the newspapers are eagerly awaiting  learning every
detail of the experience of old men  with their urinary problems -

                              HOLD  THE  PRESSES

>Derry
Best wishes to the sheep
Lee M. - 08 Dec 2003 00:21 GMT
Pray tell, what was the purpose of this post?  I fail to grasp what you've
added to the knowledge base.

> >I got home about an hour ago after......
>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> >Derry
> Best wishes to the sheep
Derry Argue - 08 Dec 2003 07:56 GMT
> Pray tell, what was the purpose of this post?  I fail to
> grasp what you've added to the knowledge base.

Hi Lee,

They are called Trolls. Please do not feed.

Derry
Derek F - 08 Dec 2003 09:51 GMT
> I got home about an hour ago after a 10 hour trip by rail from
> London following a PVP at King's College Hospital by Gordon
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> around 10am. (I was 2nd in the queue -- four cases scheduled for
> that day).
Derry
Snipped.

Did you get a chance to find out how any of the other three patients felt
about the procedure?
Derek.
Derry Argue - 08 Dec 2003 17:10 GMT
> Did you get a chance to find out how any of the other three
> patients felt about the procedure?
> Derek.

Only the one who went in ahead of me. He was also delighted and
experienced no problems except the first urination after the
catheter was removed. Muir said his prostate was "six times
normal" (100 - 120 grams?), while mine was "four times normal"
at 75 grams. Does that sound right?

BTW, I was out filling up pheasant feeders today. That entails
(carefully!) lifting 25lb? bags of grain up to chest height,
then putting them into the Land Rover or tipping them into the
feeders. No problems though I wouldn't recommend it.

I have had a bad back for years so know how to do this sort of
thing with caution. I use my leg and arm muscles for lifting so
there is negligible strain on the pelvic region. I have also
stopped the pain killers as I've had no discomfort and they only
made me feel light headed. But livestock has to be fed, so...

Derry
Derek F - 08 Dec 2003 18:29 GMT
> > Did you get a chance to find out how any of the other three
> > patients felt about the procedure?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Derry
You'll be Tossing the Caber next:-)
Derek.
Gary Alexander - 08 Dec 2003 17:53 GMT
Hi folks,
I've recently discovered this newsgroup and am so pleased to have
found it. My symptoms are quite severe, on the Laserscope test I
scored 22. I have done all the alternative therapies, which probably
have kept it from being even worse. (ex. I buy Saw Palmetto by the
litre bottle!)  I have resisted having a TURP for years, but you have
convinced me to have a PVP.

I live in England, and get the strong impression that PVP isn't
available on the NHS and won't be for a long time. Can anyone tell me
how much it costs and how long you have to wait if you have it done
privately? (And what about the USA? I am American and still have
family there.) How can we lobby to get PVPs on the NHS? I have been
paying large amounts of my salary to National Insurance for over 30
years and feel I am entitled to it!

Yours,
Gary
Derek F - 08 Dec 2003 19:53 GMT
> Hi folks,
> I've recently discovered this newsgroup and am so pleased to have
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Yours,
> Gary
Who do you buy your Saw Palmetto from?  I buy mine in tincture form direct
from the makers Herbal Apothecary. It is ?11.30 a litre + VAT and postage
compared to ?45 a litre from the herbalist.
See my post "No PVP or Avodart in Edinburgh" about the deficiencies of the
NHS.
Derek.
Derry Argue - 08 Dec 2003 20:43 GMT
> I live in England, and get the strong impression that PVP
> isn't available on the NHS and won't be for a long time.

Oh yes it is! But unless you live within the catchment area for
a hospital doing the operation, I think you will need to get
referred by your local urologist to one which does.

My PVP was done on the NHS and I was referred by a urologist at
Raigmore, Inverness, to Muir at King's. To be truthful, I think
the poor fellow was under the impression that it was one of the
other laser procedures and therefore available in Scotland but
by the time he found out it was too late!<G>

The hospitals doing PVP are King' College London (surgeon:
Gordon Muir), and I think Haywards Heath and, just lately,
apparently Dundee.

I'd suggest you approach your urologist and ask if he will refer
you to King's for a PVP. If there is any problem, come back here
and we will give you some ammunition. But it should work out a
lot cheaper than a TURP so in theory they ought not need a lot
of persuading.

Derry
Maurice Batey - 08 Dec 2003 22:05 GMT
On Thu, 1 Jan 1970 02:59:59, garyalex@fair-green.net (Gary Alexander)
wrote:

> I live in England, and get the strong impression that PVP isn't
> available on the NHS and won't be for a long time. Can anyone tell me
> how much it costs and how long you have to wait if you have it done
> privately?

PVP is being done wihin the NHS at Kings College, London (Gordon Muir)
and the Princess Royal Hospital, Haywards Heath (Jan Nawrocki).

The Ashdown Nuffield Hospital at Haywards Heath have quoted £3,370
under their 'Fixed Price Direct' scheme, an 'all in' price (i.e.
including surgeon, anaesthetist fees, and overnight stay).
    Waiting time: 2-3 weeks.

As far as I am aware, those three are the only installations in the
UK, although I understand 15 more are on order.

Maurice Batey (Retired in Hampshire, UK)

    http://www.maurice.eurobell.co.uk

(Change "no.spam" to "." in E-mail address.)
Gary Alexander - 09 Dec 2003 12:03 GMT
Thanks for that info Maurice. Since I sent that post I've found out
more myself. I've spoken to Mr. Muir's PA who says the wait to get PVP
on the NHS at Kings would be about 1 1/2 years! Privately, it could be
done by the end of January, but the cost, including various tests
before and after and consultations, would be around 5000 pounds. That
doesn't include a night in the hospital.

I've also spoken to the secretary at Ashdown who quotes a similar
waiting time and a price more like 3,500 all in (including a
consultation with the surgeon first for about 170 pounds), including
one night in the hospital. So, it's a lot of money, but seems a lot
less than in the USA according to another thread in this group.

So, lots of food for thought!!

Thanks for your help.
Gary
Derek F - 09 Dec 2003 18:10 GMT
> Thanks for that info Maurice. Since I sent that post I've found out
> more myself. I've spoken to Mr. Muir's PA who says the wait to get PVP
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Thanks for your help.
> Gary
Presumably all of those in the know about PVP are asking to be referred to
Kings College. As other NHS hospitals get wise and adopt PVP the load will
be spread around the country.
Derek.
Derry Argue - 09 Dec 2003 20:24 GMT
>  I've spoken to Mr. Muir's PA who says the wait to get PVP
> on the NHS at Kings would be about 1 1/2 years!

I'm afraid that is probably correct as I was scheduled for a
TURP about 5 years ago. I refused that and "managed" until about
18 months ago when things started to get serious. My doctor said
he didn't think I'd be able to hold out and would have to have a
TURP. Anyway, I insisted on a referral to King's and it has
definitely been worth the wait.

As I've commented elsewhere, I now feel as good as I did pre-BPH
and it seems incredible that I had a PVP last Wednesday, six
days ago. Since then I have virtually resumed normal activities
-- though naturally with caution. I drove at least 200 miles
today without a problem and have been quite active since
returning home on Friday (5th December).

My advice would be to get your name down as soon as possible and
go for a TURP as a last resort if you can't last out the 18
months.

Derry
Tom - 09 Dec 2003 23:16 GMT
Garry

Derry lives near Aberdeen and did a 1000 mile trip for his PVP at King's. I
live in Dumfries and will do an 800 mile round trip at the beginning of Jan
for my PVP at the Princess Royal in Haywards Heath. The 2 hospitals are 40
miles apart. To add to the confusion, there are 2 PVP machines in Haywards
Heath; the other one is at the Nuffield.
Both of us went down the NHS route and had difficulties in getting our
urologists to agree to this procedure, but I believe word of mouth is
getting the message round.
Talk to your current urologist, you may be surprised.
It took me about 8 months from my uro contacting Mr Jan Nawrocki at Haywards
Heath to the PVP in January. Mr Nawrocki had about 45 ops under his belt as
of the end of October.
Best of luck.

Tom

_________________________________________________

Please reply/communicate using tom1@CUTOUTpaszki.freeserve.co.uk
bnd777 - 11 Dec 2003 00:11 GMT
> Hi folks,
> I've recently discovered this newsgroup and am so pleased to have
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Yours,
> Gary

PVP is available on the NHS at Kings College Hospital London from a
fantsatic urologist Gordon Muir .....he could not be nicer

Insist on a referral from your GP

If you want to know the private cost please E Mail me
Derry Argue - 11 Dec 2003 07:24 GMT
>> Hi folks,
>> I've recently discovered this newsgroup and am so pleased
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> If you want to know the private cost please E Mail me

In case my previous posting did not get through, I can confirm
my recent PVP was paid for by the NHS. Due to extreme poverty, I
also got my travel expenses paid, barring the first 8GBP which I
had to pay.I stayed with my brother in London so did not claim
hotel expenses.

Just for the record, I have paid weekly National Insurance
contributions all my life and have no qualms about claiming any
support I have a right to. In fact, I insist on it!<G>

Derry
bnd777 - 12 Dec 2003 00:04 GMT
> >> Hi folks,
> >> I've recently discovered this newsgroup and am so pleased
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Derry

Good for you Derry .......I agree entirely
unless you are lucky enough to have PPP or BUPA then it sure as hell should
not be coming outof savings etc
Ron - 09 Dec 2003 14:11 GMT
Derry,
I'm very happy to hear this good news from you after following your previous
posts. Best of luck for complete recovery.
Ron

> From: Derry Argue <derrynospam@adviegundogs.co.uk>
> Organization: Your Company
[quoted text clipped - 134 lines]
>
> Derry
admin - 10 Dec 2003 23:45 GMT
Greetings,

> I got home about an hour ago after a 10 hour trip by rail from
> London following a PVP at King's College Hospital by Gordon
> Muir.

Pleased you got home OK Derry

> Frankly, PVP is virtually painless. I was allowed home after
> urinating twice when the urine was judged to be clear. I walked
> home (1/2 mile) by myself and felt fine though I did look very
> carefully each way before crossing any roads. I was still
> feeling the combined effects of lack of sleep and the general
> anaesthetic.

Sounds as though the op was very sucessful, I hope you keep us updated on
your progress.

Signature

Regards,

Peter

peteratNOSPAMhull-me.co.uk

 
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