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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / June 2009

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Two weeks after PVP

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Salmon Egg - 01 Jan 2009 21:03 GMT
It was just about two weeks ago when I was prepped for the procedure.

So far, everything has been uneventful and painless. I took my last
antibiotic dose last Monday. My peeing ends sharply as opposed to
dribbling to a stop. The only downside so far is that voided volume is
small. Even there, I believe I am seeing improvement. My volume started
out at about 150 mL. That is what it still is if I pee when the urge
first shows up. If I try to hold back a bit more, I now void about 200
to 250 mL. I am looking forward to getting up only once a night.

In short, It has been a piece of cake.

Bill

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Private Profit; Public Poop! Avoid collateral windfall!

Rich256 - 01 Jan 2009 21:43 GMT
> It was just about two weeks ago when I was prepped for the procedure.
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> --
> Private Profit; Public Poop! Avoid collateral windfall!

Your volume is very close to what I have experienced and similar
disappointment.  Over time it has increased and occasionally may be as
much as 400 mL.

That I suppose is mostly due to age.   I also get up once or twice a
night but on the bright side it is for only a few seconds instead of
three or four minutes to dribble out a few ounces.  If I should live
so long I hope to avoid the misery my 95 year old father in law went
through the last years of his live. He put off doing anything for
years (I'm getting along) and then got to where because of his age the
doctors would not consider TURP or PVP.    A convenience store clerk
in Phoenix answered the question "What is your best seller?":
Depends.  (Large box).
Mr. B - 02 Jan 2009 17:09 GMT
> It was just about two weeks ago when I was prepped for the procedure.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Bill

Comparing both of your experiences to mine has led me to some thoughts
on this.  I'm now at 24 days since my TURP+laser, and I'm voiding up
to 600 mL each time .

By procrastinating, I inadvertently stretched my bladder.  My PVR grew
from 115 mL to 825 mL in one year before the operation.  My Uro was
very concerned about this because be said it usually leads to the
bladder becoming "leather-like" and losing its elasticity.  One week
post-op, my PVR went down to 200 mL.  It now seems like my brain
receives the "gotta pee" alert signal when my bladder is up to 800 mL,
which results in 200 mL PVR after voiding 600 mL.

Post-op, my flow rate was initially tremendous, but I'm told this is
because the bladder muscles were accustomed to pushing hard to void so
they instinctively pushed hard even when not needed.  This makes sense
because my flow rate has steadily decreased unless I push hard on
purpose, which I do on occasion for entertainment such as pressure
cleaning public toilet bowls :)

My Uro says stretched bladders rarely come back, especially in older
patients (I'm 65 this month).  It doesn't seem like procrastinating to
increase bladder capacity would ever be recommended, but it does
remind me of how the popular RK eyesight-correcting procedure was
accidentally invented - A Russian eye doctor removed glass splinters
from a patient whose vision improved once the eye healed.
http://www.bookrags.com/research/radial-keratotomy-woi/

I also noticed my flow ending sharply now with no dribble.  My only
concern at this point is intermittent bleeding at the start of each
void later in the day (none in the AM).  Seems to be worse the more
active I am.  I've also been abstaining from sex because of
experiences I've read about on this site about sex too soon triggering
a lot of continued prostate bleeding and prolonged problems.  Did
either of you have any experiences with bleeding?
Salmon Egg - 02 Jan 2009 20:11 GMT
In article
<df338d5d-0259-4f0b-bb07-717e2c59b480@z1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,

> Comparing both of your experiences to mine has led me to some thoughts
> on this.  I'm now at 24 days since my TURP+laser, and I'm voiding up
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> a lot of continued prostate bleeding and prolonged problems.  Did
> either of you have any experiences with bleeding

I found your report very interest--similar and different.

A post-op scan indicates low retention. Nevertheless, volume is
relatively small. 600 mL would be great. Maybe my bladder shrunk too
much. Next time I will ask how big it is. I had a test that filled my
bladder. I am in my upper 70's.

I have had no bleeding problems. At most, there may be some red cells in
my urine that would require microscopy to detect.

I do pee a lot. More than a liter overnight. At 200 mL per shot, that is
a lot of getting up. I look forward to 500 mL torrents.

Bill

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Private Profit; Public Poop! Avoid collateral windfall!

Ed - 02 Jan 2009 20:53 GMT
>A post-op scan indicates low retention. Nevertheless, volume is
>relatively small. 600 mL would be great. Maybe my bladder shrunk too
>much. Next time I will ask how big it is. I had a test that filled my
>bladder. I am in my upper 70's.

I would think that your bladder size is whatever volume it produces
when you pee. That varies, of course, depending on how long you put it
off... but how else could you determine it? The bladder is elastic.
How big is an elastic when you stretch it?

Ed
Salmon Egg - 03 Jan 2009 01:47 GMT
> I would think that your bladder size is whatever volume it produces
> when you pee. That varies, of course, depending on how long you put it
> off... but how else could you determine it? The bladder is elastic.
> How big is an elastic when you stretch it?

At one time, I was getting 600 mL pp (new unit per pee :=)). Something
sure got smaller.

Bill

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Private Profit; Public Poop! Avoid collateral windfall!

Ed - 02 Jan 2009 20:48 GMT
>> It was just about two weeks ago when I was prepped for the procedure.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>a lot of continued prostate bleeding and prolonged problems.  Did
>either of you have any experiences with bleeding?

Thanks for your report! I'm a procrastinator, and have been  for at
least 6 years now, and I want to procrastinate some more.

I'm 66 and still working full time. My work involves travelling. I'm
planning trips to India in Feb, Holland in July, and Colorado in Sept.
(Home is Alberta, Canada.) I don't think you want to do travelling
like that within a couple months of a TURP.

My prostate is giant (measured at 150 g about 4 years ago), so the
TURP won't be an easy one... might have to be an open prostatectomy.
Nevertheless, my symptoms are not that bad. Up 2-3 times at night. I
produce about 120 mL per pee during the day, more at night. If I don't
wake up in time, bladder over-fills and that means much difficulty
peeing. Once every two years or so I go into retention because of
that. I relieve it by self-catheterization. That's stressful, but
probably a lot better than an operation.

Maybe next fall I will have a procedure done...

Ed
Mr. B - 02 Jan 2009 23:09 GMT
> Thanks for your report! I'm a procrastinator, and have been  for at
> least 6 years now, and I want to procrastinate some more.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> that. I relieve it by self-catheterization. That's stressful, but
> probably a lot better than an operation.

Ed - I would be careful about procrastinating too long.  Also make
sure your PVR (post void retention) gets measured regularly.  My Uro
uses a simple non-invasive ultrasound device that takes a few
minutes.  Keeping your bladder stretched for years may permanently
damage its elasticity.  However, getting the TURP right after it
initially stretches may be the timing "sweet spot", if my theory above
holds water (pardon the pun).

Related to the question in your other note about bladder size - It
seems like your "max pee" plus your PVR equals your bladder size.
Using this theory, mine is now 600+200=800.  Just before my TURP it
was 200+825=1025 and one year ago it was 200+115=315.  If I had my
TURP one year ago, I might have only still been peeing 200 mL, but
faster, as the others have reported here.

I should point out that I have no medical credentials and my theories
may fall apart under scrutiny.  I'm also abstaining from sex which may
be causing my brain cells to entertain themselves by dreaming up crazy
theories :)
Ed - 03 Jan 2009 00:10 GMT
>> Thanks for your report! I'm a procrastinator, and have been  for at
>> least 6 years now, and I want to procrastinate some more.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>be causing my brain cells to entertain themselves by dreaming up crazy
>theories :)

Yes, you are quite right to add the post-void retention.

I have been under the care of two uros for 10 years or so and nobody
has ever measured my PVR. I was just assuming it was next to nothing
for me. How is one to know? The bladder seems to be working okay...
for now...

I have an appt later in the month. Maybe I will ask my uro then.

How long do you think it will be before you are back to normal, able
to run/exercise, travel, etc.? (Sex too...)

Ed
Mr. B - 03 Jan 2009 03:23 GMT
> On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:09:56 -0800 (PST), "Mr. B"
>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

My Uro says 12 weeks to 100% healed but says I could start to ease
into mild exercise and travel at 4 weeks, but no heavy lifting for 8
weeks or more if bleeding continues.  I'm being extra careful because
I've read some scary stories on line from guys that starined
themselves and/or rushed into sex and never seemed to have completly
healed.  I've scheduled a plane trip at week 5, but could cancel if
the bleeding doesn't taper off.
Ed - 03 Jan 2009 07:40 GMT
>> On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:09:56 -0800 (PST), "Mr. B"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>healed.  I've scheduled a plane trip at week 5, but could cancel if
>the bleeding doesn't taper off.

Let us know how it develops! Good luck.

Ed
Rich256 - 03 Jan 2009 15:46 GMT
> On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:09:56 -0800 (PST), "Mr. B"
>
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>
> Ed

I am really surprised that a PVR has not been performed!!  I think I
have had it every time.   Even for the first appointment I was told to
arrive with a full bladder.  That is the basic bph problem.  If the
bladder doesn't empty it isn't long and the urgency strikes again.

First URO wanted to set me up for TURP.   I had concluded that the
side effects of Flomax were not worth it.   About that time I started
watching this group and "Forlorn Hope" was just starting into his
episode finding a doctor that did PVP.  After his exceptional results
we were perhaps a bit over enthused with PVP.  I went searching for a
URO that did PVP and hopefully had a fair amount of experience.  As I
stated a while ago he talked me into trying   TUMT first so it was
almost another year before I finally had  PVP.   Not the results like
a 20 year old that I would like but at 80 years I am quite
satisfied.    I wanted to get it done before getting so old that they
would not want to operate (And maybe under socialized medicine some
bureaucrat will have to decide if you are worth the cost!!).

Dr. Sancha was dropping in here frequently at that time as well.  He
has an informative blog:

http://drgomezsancha2.blogspot.com/
davecory - 03 Jan 2009 19:51 GMT
I had PVP several years ago and also noticed I was voiding small volumes at
first. This improved over the first 12-20 weeks to the point I was completely
happy.  One thing to consider though it may not apply in your case: When the
bladder sends a message to the brain that you need to pee it does not
necessarily mean your bladder is full to capacity, even though it feels like
it. PVP tends to irritate the nerves around the bladder for a while and
causes it to send the signal early. As the irritation disappears the bladder
should signal correctly and the amount voided should increase.

My bladder seems to be functioning very well now except for one odd and minor
thing, I get an urge to pee whenever I brush my teeth even when my bladder is
empty. Go figure.

Dave.

>It was just about two weeks ago when I was prepped for the procedure.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Bill
gemini-aquarius7 - 22 Jun 2009 02:29 GMT
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> It was just about two weeks ago when I was prepped for the procedure.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Bill
Salmon Egg - 22 Jun 2009 04:54 GMT
> > It was just about two weeks ago when I was prepped for the procedure.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >
> > In short, It has been a piece of cake.

As I reported a few days ago, the piece of cake has turned rancid in the
past six months. The promising start has not blossomed into good peeing.
I still am optimistic that an outpatient procedure during the next week
will take care of the problem, but that is not certain.

Bill

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