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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / June 2006

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3 weeks post pvp frequency/urgency problems

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steve - 21 Jun 2006 19:31 GMT
I'm now 22 days post-pvp. Apparently had normal sized prostate but with
medial lobe problem. While my stream has picked up some strength and I
have weaned myself from Flomax 3 or 4 days ago, I still have a lot of
stinging when voiding, but my main problem is frequency/urgency. I've
tried OTC Phenazopyridine and am now taking Prosed/DS prescribed by my
uro, but I still have to void every 1/2 hour to 1 hour during the day
(the other day at a 3 hr. business meeing, I had to excuse myself to go
to the bathroom every 35 minutes!)

Worse, at night, I'm up every 1/2 hour to 1 1/2 hours, and am becoming
severely sleep deprived. The only relief I've had is when I had a
sleeping pill, which got me in a deep enough sleep that I slept up to 2
or 2 1/2 hours uninterrupted. At least prior to pvp, I only had to
waken 2 or 3 times a night to void. Now, it's at least 5 w/o a sleeping
pill and 4 with a sleeping pill.

I'm still only able to void approximately 100 ml at a time (approx. the
same as 1 week post-pvp), though my retention at the post-op follow-up
was only about 30 ml or less.

Is my frequency because of bladder wall thickening and reduced bladder
capacity? If so, what is the prognosis for healing/recovery? Or might
it be due to the fact that my urethra is still very raw and is sending
messages that I must void, though I could hold more? Are there any
other meds that might help?  Are there any other things I can do to
help speed the healing process?

Or is this all normal?  My uro simply says, "Well, you've been stopped
up a long time."

Have any others had similar experiences at 3 weeks out, and can I
reasonably expect any eventual significant degree of relief?
Temujin - 21 Jun 2006 21:56 GMT
I had a similar, though not so extreme, experience.  At three weeks I
still had some stinging at the end of urination, moreso if there was
only a little urine to come out.  As you said, the worse problem was
the false urgency.  100 to 150 ml was probably typical at three weeks,
usually an hour or two.  I was OK sitting down, but when I started
walking around, I would have to go so bad I didn't think I would make
it to the bathroom.  This continued to some extent until just a couple
of weeks ago, at about three months post-PVP.  Then the burning just
quit, and the urgency, while still there to some extent, is now
improving rapidly.  I think it just takes a lot longer for most of us
to heal than "they" would like to have you believe.  You've had a 1"
hole burned through your prostate, and it will take a while for that to
heal up.
steve - 21 Jun 2006 22:25 GMT
Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just
appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro.
Steve
Pete - 21 Jun 2006 23:53 GMT
> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just
> appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro.
> Steve

Steve...that is just one more reason why I don't like doctors.  Hope you
improve soon.

Pete
steve - 22 Jun 2006 00:29 GMT
Rich256 - 22 Jun 2006 01:18 GMT
>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just
>> appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Pete

The good ones are too busy.  If they take time it comes out of their
paycheck and they will have to drop some patients.  My wife just heard
about a really good doctor.  Called and was informed that she is not
taking any new patients.

Most will spend some time but they rarely will take the time to go into
great detail.  If you want more you would have to offer to pay him his
going rate for extra time to explain. Your insurance won't cover that.
Pete - 22 Jun 2006 02:32 GMT
>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just
>>> appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> into great detail.  If you want more you would have to offer to pay
> him his going rate for extra time to explain.

That would be absurd Rich, I hope you are not serious [remember we are
usually on the same page :-)].  Any friggen doctor who doesn't explain
things properly shouldn't be practicing medicine.  I told you I hate the
bastards and their prima donna attitudes.  I would bet my house that doctor
Sancha isn't like that.  Remember I have been to 75 doctors in my life, and
the vast majority of them are a.sholes, and not one could hold a candle to
Dr. Sancha.

Anyway I have a pretty good memory, and I believe it was you who told the
story (many months ago) about the young lady doctor who cried because she
couldn't spend more time with her patients (and I talked about the TV show
Marcus Welby), and you also talked about some old home town doctor (who you
could talk to like a real friend when you visited him years later).  I think
it was you for at least one of those items, if not both.

Anyway, sure things have changed in this dog eat dog, capitalistic world,
but please don't imply that Steve's doctor did not have to explain things in
more detail, unless Steve paid him an extra fee (so to speak).  That is
unadulterated bullshit IMO :-) ...Pete

Your insurance won't
> cover that.
Rich256 - 22 Jun 2006 15:01 GMT
>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just
>>>> appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro.
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> Your insurance won't
>> cover that.

Not in line here.  I have only met one doctor I didn't like and didn't
trust.  Now days they are not like the old country doctor and have time
to sit down and chat but I never found one that didn't explain the
problem and what they were going to do about it.  But what I am saying
is that they are not going to spend the time to sit down and talk for an
hour and give me a long medical explanation about the details.    Not
when their schedule usually requires seeing a patient every ten minutes.
 That is up to you to research if you are that interested.  Much like
everyone here is doing.    They got a lot of expensive equipment (PVP
for example) to pay for.  Not like 50 years ago when they bought an
examination table and a stethoscope and went into business.

Now the UROs have to come up with a million or so more to pay for the
new PVP machine.  They gotta see a lot of 10 minute appointments (that's
all your insurance company will pay for) to pay for that as well as
their rent and malpractice insurance.

You can see why they don't really want us Medicare patients either.  I
see the bills come in where the Dr. says that will be $50.  Medicare
says here is $20, take it or leave it.
Rich256 - 22 Jun 2006 15:07 GMT
>>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just
>>>>> appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro.
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> see the bills come in where the Dr. says that will be $50.  Medicare
> says here is $20, take it or leave it.

I need to add that I have met doctors that I thought were not totally
competent but I think they were doing as good as can be expected.  It's
like picking a mechanic to work on your car.  Remember the old question?
 What do you call the guy who graduates at the bottom of the class in
Medical School?  Ans:  Doctor.

However, even if he is at the bottom of the class he might be a very
good doctor with a lot of insight to what is happening instead of memory
of what he read.  I have seen that with engineers.  We hired a guy who
was absolutely brilliant.  Top of the class and all.  Problem was he
couldn't build anything.  Everything was by the book.
Rich256 - 22 Jun 2006 15:45 GMT
>>>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just
>>>>>> appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro.
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
> was absolutely brilliant.  Top of the class and all.  Problem was he
> couldn't build anything.  Everything was by the book.
Still another thought.  Where are your doctors from?  One of those "in
your face" eastern schools:-)  Mine are all Friendly Westerners.  URO is
from Texas.
Pete - 22 Jun 2006 18:06 GMT
>>>>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have
>>>>>>> just appreciated a little more explanation and context from my
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
> your face" eastern schools:-)  Mine are all Friendly Westerners.  URO
> is from Texas.

Come Rich...Doctors come from all over the world and half the doctors in the
U.S. are from Pakistan, India and yes even Iraq.  It is sickening.  They go
to medical school over in their country, then come over here to do there
residency and get rich.
Pete - 22 Jun 2006 18:26 GMT
>>>>>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have
>>>>>>>> just appreciated a little more explanation and context from my
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
> sickening.  They go to medical school over in their country, then
> come over here to do there residency and get rich.

That was supposed to be "Come on Rich" :-):-) .
Pete - 22 Jun 2006 18:10 GMT
>>>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have
>>>>>> just appreciated a little more explanation and context from my
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
> guy who was absolutely brilliant.  Top of the class and all.  Problem
> was he couldn't build anything.

Thanks Rich...I am a friggen engineer, and I have built all the furniture in
my house, and am quite proud of it.  And I can put the average practitioner
to sleep on many medical issues, but I am sure you don't believe that right.
Perhaps you just get along with doctors better than me, which I am sure most
people do, but a lot of people are medically ignorant and don't even know
what the name of the drug is that they are taking, which sickens me.  I have
written in here long ago about my dislike and disrespect for doctors, and
the fact that our doctor Sancha is an exception to the rule, and he is the
"best of the best"....Pete

Everything was by the book.
Ed - 22 Jun 2006 15:49 GMT
>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just
>>>> appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>more detail, unless Steve paid him an extra fee (so to speak).  That is
>unadulterated bullshit IMO :-) ...Pete

Hi, Pete.

I can't help wondering what those 75 doctors thought about you!

I too have had a few docs and I have great respect for most of them.
Most seemed genuinely concerned about me, their patient. They took
some time to describe what was up. But it is a fine balance for them.
I can sense some impatience (maybe on my part just as much as on
theirs) when we get into the details of an annyoing ache in my knee
when there are life and death issues in the waiting room.

And it's a business for the docs. They have bills to pay,
responsibilities to their staff, etc., and I'm sure they look at the
costs/benefits of business decisions, as they should.

My first uro was a dud. He was fresh out of school and trying to build
a practice. He was pushing me towards surgery. That would have been a
nice piece of business for him. Just like the local garage talking you
into new CV joints that you don't need. The new uro is great (and has
a busy practice). My GP is wonderful and I trust him.

Many docs are reluctant to give the patient detailed info about the
condition in question. Maybe they feel the patient doesn't need to
know. Or maybe the doc doesn't really know. Or maybe they are
protective of what they took 10 years to learn, or maybe it's that
they like the air of mystery and power. It could also be (in some
cases) that they might say something that isn't correct any more and
the patient will start to argue with them. And that is a problematic
situation, because the doc is the expert, not the patient, otherwise
why is the patient seeing the doc?

So I think some diplomacy is needed. Let the doc tell you what he
wants to tell you, then ask questions carefully and don't take too
much time (remembering the waiting room). After the visit, do your own
research; become an expert on your own if you want. Then on the next
visit, you can ask more good questions.

Ed
Pete - 22 Jun 2006 18:25 GMT
>>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have
>>>>> just appreciated a little more explanation and context from my
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>
> Ed

Thanks Ed...I hear and acknowledge what you are saying, but I could write
you horror stories about my bad experiences with doctors (including
incompetence).  I know I have touched on it in here before (and in other
ng's), and you guys probably didn't pay any attention, and said "its just
Pete bitching about the doctors again".

But I don't like them, and consider most of them to be arrogant prima donnas
who disrespect your right to study and research your disease or condition.
I have stated this several times in the past.  Obviously many of them don't
like me any more than I like them, and I have talked about that before also
(and who fires who).

Unfortunately, I knew I shouldn't have made the simple comment on Steve's
thread here, and Rich jumped in with his statement about paying them extra
(which I totally disagreed with).

But when I see someone else (like Steve) make a negative comment about
doctors, I can't help but make a comment sometimes.

Pete
Rich256 - 22 Jun 2006 18:31 GMT
>>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just
>>>>> appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro.
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
>
> Ed

When my URO signed me up for PVP he finished the conversation by asking
if I had any questions.  I answered that I think everything had been
well covered.  He then commented something to the effect that I knew
more about the subject than most patients, or maybe it was all his patients.

And it is impossible to know exactly what is happening inside.  A
mechanic can tear the engine down and locate the problem.  I had a
surgeon do that.  I had terrible side pains indicating appendix but all
other signs said no.  White cell count was normal.  Finally after a day
of testing he said the only thing left is to go in and take a look.
Found out it was ruptured.  Rather it had been leaking for a long time,
gangrene destroying much of the tissue around it.
Pete - 22 Jun 2006 18:45 GMT
>>>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have
>>>>>> just appreciated a little more explanation and context from my
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
> more about the subject than most patients, or maybe it was all his
> patients.

I remember that story from before Rich :-)

> And it is impossible to know exactly what is happening inside.  A
> mechanic can tear the engine down and locate the problem.  I had a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Found out it was ruptured.  Rather it had been leaking for a long
> time, gangrene destroying much of the tissue around it.
docsafari@hotmail.com - 23 Jun 2006 17:34 GMT
At four weeks post-PVP I have agonizing pain prior to, during , and
(especially) after urinating. I also have the urgency when there is
relatively little in my bladder.So you are not alone by any means.  In
my case the PVP was done to a prostate irradiated by seeds 11 months
prior, so the extent of the pain (given that nerves are supposed to be
dead in the prostate) is a mystery.  I see the Uro next week to sort
this out.

In your case, you might want to get back on the Flomax to help open
things up. I also strongly urge that you have a bladder scan by your
Uro immediately after voiding to see if you are still actually emptying
your bladder rather than retaining and having overflow incontinence.
Your urethra is undoubtedly still very raw, and your bladder, etc.,
irritated as well.  Might be good to be checked for CRP (measure of
inflammation), in which case an NSAID/anti-inflammatory would be
advised. (That also helps with the pain.) I would think you would
already be on an anti-inflammatory, as that is the normal treatment.

Hang in there. A lot of us have very painful side-effects from these
procedires in that part of our body.

Richard

> I'm now 22 days post-pvp. Apparently had normal sized prostate but with
> medial lobe problem. While my stream has picked up some strength and I
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Have any others had similar experiences at 3 weeks out, and can I
> reasonably expect any eventual significant degree of relief?
 
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