Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / June 2006
3 weeks post pvp frequency/urgency problems
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steve - 21 Jun 2006 19:31 GMT I'm now 22 days post-pvp. Apparently had normal sized prostate but with medial lobe problem. While my stream has picked up some strength and I have weaned myself from Flomax 3 or 4 days ago, I still have a lot of stinging when voiding, but my main problem is frequency/urgency. I've tried OTC Phenazopyridine and am now taking Prosed/DS prescribed by my uro, but I still have to void every 1/2 hour to 1 hour during the day (the other day at a 3 hr. business meeing, I had to excuse myself to go to the bathroom every 35 minutes!)
Worse, at night, I'm up every 1/2 hour to 1 1/2 hours, and am becoming severely sleep deprived. The only relief I've had is when I had a sleeping pill, which got me in a deep enough sleep that I slept up to 2 or 2 1/2 hours uninterrupted. At least prior to pvp, I only had to waken 2 or 3 times a night to void. Now, it's at least 5 w/o a sleeping pill and 4 with a sleeping pill.
I'm still only able to void approximately 100 ml at a time (approx. the same as 1 week post-pvp), though my retention at the post-op follow-up was only about 30 ml or less.
Is my frequency because of bladder wall thickening and reduced bladder capacity? If so, what is the prognosis for healing/recovery? Or might it be due to the fact that my urethra is still very raw and is sending messages that I must void, though I could hold more? Are there any other meds that might help? Are there any other things I can do to help speed the healing process?
Or is this all normal? My uro simply says, "Well, you've been stopped up a long time."
Have any others had similar experiences at 3 weeks out, and can I reasonably expect any eventual significant degree of relief?
Temujin - 21 Jun 2006 21:56 GMT I had a similar, though not so extreme, experience. At three weeks I still had some stinging at the end of urination, moreso if there was only a little urine to come out. As you said, the worse problem was the false urgency. 100 to 150 ml was probably typical at three weeks, usually an hour or two. I was OK sitting down, but when I started walking around, I would have to go so bad I didn't think I would make it to the bathroom. This continued to some extent until just a couple of weeks ago, at about three months post-PVP. Then the burning just quit, and the urgency, while still there to some extent, is now improving rapidly. I think it just takes a lot longer for most of us to heal than "they" would like to have you believe. You've had a 1" hole burned through your prostate, and it will take a while for that to heal up.
steve - 21 Jun 2006 22:25 GMT Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro. Steve
Pete - 21 Jun 2006 23:53 GMT > Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just > appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro. > Steve Steve...that is just one more reason why I don't like doctors. Hope you improve soon.
Pete
steve - 22 Jun 2006 00:29 GMT Rich256 - 22 Jun 2006 01:18 GMT >> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just >> appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Pete The good ones are too busy. If they take time it comes out of their paycheck and they will have to drop some patients. My wife just heard about a really good doctor. Called and was informed that she is not taking any new patients.
Most will spend some time but they rarely will take the time to go into great detail. If you want more you would have to offer to pay him his going rate for extra time to explain. Your insurance won't cover that.
Pete - 22 Jun 2006 02:32 GMT >>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just >>> appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > into great detail. If you want more you would have to offer to pay > him his going rate for extra time to explain. That would be absurd Rich, I hope you are not serious [remember we are usually on the same page :-)]. Any friggen doctor who doesn't explain things properly shouldn't be practicing medicine. I told you I hate the bastards and their prima donna attitudes. I would bet my house that doctor Sancha isn't like that. Remember I have been to 75 doctors in my life, and the vast majority of them are a.sholes, and not one could hold a candle to Dr. Sancha.
Anyway I have a pretty good memory, and I believe it was you who told the story (many months ago) about the young lady doctor who cried because she couldn't spend more time with her patients (and I talked about the TV show Marcus Welby), and you also talked about some old home town doctor (who you could talk to like a real friend when you visited him years later). I think it was you for at least one of those items, if not both.
Anyway, sure things have changed in this dog eat dog, capitalistic world, but please don't imply that Steve's doctor did not have to explain things in more detail, unless Steve paid him an extra fee (so to speak). That is unadulterated bullshit IMO :-) ...Pete
Your insurance won't
> cover that. Rich256 - 22 Jun 2006 15:01 GMT >>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just >>>> appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Your insurance won't >> cover that. Not in line here. I have only met one doctor I didn't like and didn't trust. Now days they are not like the old country doctor and have time to sit down and chat but I never found one that didn't explain the problem and what they were going to do about it. But what I am saying is that they are not going to spend the time to sit down and talk for an hour and give me a long medical explanation about the details. Not when their schedule usually requires seeing a patient every ten minutes. That is up to you to research if you are that interested. Much like everyone here is doing. They got a lot of expensive equipment (PVP for example) to pay for. Not like 50 years ago when they bought an examination table and a stethoscope and went into business.
Now the UROs have to come up with a million or so more to pay for the new PVP machine. They gotta see a lot of 10 minute appointments (that's all your insurance company will pay for) to pay for that as well as their rent and malpractice insurance.
You can see why they don't really want us Medicare patients either. I see the bills come in where the Dr. says that will be $50. Medicare says here is $20, take it or leave it.
Rich256 - 22 Jun 2006 15:07 GMT >>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just >>>>> appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro. [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > see the bills come in where the Dr. says that will be $50. Medicare > says here is $20, take it or leave it. I need to add that I have met doctors that I thought were not totally competent but I think they were doing as good as can be expected. It's like picking a mechanic to work on your car. Remember the old question? What do you call the guy who graduates at the bottom of the class in Medical School? Ans: Doctor.
However, even if he is at the bottom of the class he might be a very good doctor with a lot of insight to what is happening instead of memory of what he read. I have seen that with engineers. We hired a guy who was absolutely brilliant. Top of the class and all. Problem was he couldn't build anything. Everything was by the book.
Rich256 - 22 Jun 2006 15:45 GMT >>>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just >>>>>> appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro. [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > was absolutely brilliant. Top of the class and all. Problem was he > couldn't build anything. Everything was by the book. Still another thought. Where are your doctors from? One of those "in your face" eastern schools:-) Mine are all Friendly Westerners. URO is from Texas.
Pete - 22 Jun 2006 18:06 GMT >>>>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have >>>>>>> just appreciated a little more explanation and context from my [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > your face" eastern schools:-) Mine are all Friendly Westerners. URO > is from Texas. Come Rich...Doctors come from all over the world and half the doctors in the U.S. are from Pakistan, India and yes even Iraq. It is sickening. They go to medical school over in their country, then come over here to do there residency and get rich.
Pete - 22 Jun 2006 18:26 GMT >>>>>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have >>>>>>>> just appreciated a little more explanation and context from my [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > sickening. They go to medical school over in their country, then > come over here to do there residency and get rich. That was supposed to be "Come on Rich" :-):-) .
Pete - 22 Jun 2006 18:10 GMT >>>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have >>>>>> just appreciated a little more explanation and context from my [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > guy who was absolutely brilliant. Top of the class and all. Problem > was he couldn't build anything. Thanks Rich...I am a friggen engineer, and I have built all the furniture in my house, and am quite proud of it. And I can put the average practitioner to sleep on many medical issues, but I am sure you don't believe that right. Perhaps you just get along with doctors better than me, which I am sure most people do, but a lot of people are medically ignorant and don't even know what the name of the drug is that they are taking, which sickens me. I have written in here long ago about my dislike and disrespect for doctors, and the fact that our doctor Sancha is an exception to the rule, and he is the "best of the best"....Pete
Everything was by the book.
Ed - 22 Jun 2006 15:49 GMT >>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just >>>> appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >more detail, unless Steve paid him an extra fee (so to speak). That is >unadulterated bullshit IMO :-) ...Pete Hi, Pete.
I can't help wondering what those 75 doctors thought about you!
I too have had a few docs and I have great respect for most of them. Most seemed genuinely concerned about me, their patient. They took some time to describe what was up. But it is a fine balance for them. I can sense some impatience (maybe on my part just as much as on theirs) when we get into the details of an annyoing ache in my knee when there are life and death issues in the waiting room.
And it's a business for the docs. They have bills to pay, responsibilities to their staff, etc., and I'm sure they look at the costs/benefits of business decisions, as they should.
My first uro was a dud. He was fresh out of school and trying to build a practice. He was pushing me towards surgery. That would have been a nice piece of business for him. Just like the local garage talking you into new CV joints that you don't need. The new uro is great (and has a busy practice). My GP is wonderful and I trust him.
Many docs are reluctant to give the patient detailed info about the condition in question. Maybe they feel the patient doesn't need to know. Or maybe the doc doesn't really know. Or maybe they are protective of what they took 10 years to learn, or maybe it's that they like the air of mystery and power. It could also be (in some cases) that they might say something that isn't correct any more and the patient will start to argue with them. And that is a problematic situation, because the doc is the expert, not the patient, otherwise why is the patient seeing the doc?
So I think some diplomacy is needed. Let the doc tell you what he wants to tell you, then ask questions carefully and don't take too much time (remembering the waiting room). After the visit, do your own research; become an expert on your own if you want. Then on the next visit, you can ask more good questions.
Ed
Pete - 22 Jun 2006 18:25 GMT >>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have >>>>> just appreciated a little more explanation and context from my [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > Ed Thanks Ed...I hear and acknowledge what you are saying, but I could write you horror stories about my bad experiences with doctors (including incompetence). I know I have touched on it in here before (and in other ng's), and you guys probably didn't pay any attention, and said "its just Pete bitching about the doctors again".
But I don't like them, and consider most of them to be arrogant prima donnas who disrespect your right to study and research your disease or condition. I have stated this several times in the past. Obviously many of them don't like me any more than I like them, and I have talked about that before also (and who fires who).
Unfortunately, I knew I shouldn't have made the simple comment on Steve's thread here, and Rich jumped in with his statement about paying them extra (which I totally disagreed with).
But when I see someone else (like Steve) make a negative comment about doctors, I can't help but make a comment sometimes.
Pete
Rich256 - 22 Jun 2006 18:31 GMT >>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have just >>>>> appreciated a little more explanation and context from my uro. [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > Ed When my URO signed me up for PVP he finished the conversation by asking if I had any questions. I answered that I think everything had been well covered. He then commented something to the effect that I knew more about the subject than most patients, or maybe it was all his patients.
And it is impossible to know exactly what is happening inside. A mechanic can tear the engine down and locate the problem. I had a surgeon do that. I had terrible side pains indicating appendix but all other signs said no. White cell count was normal. Finally after a day of testing he said the only thing left is to go in and take a look. Found out it was ruptured. Rather it had been leaking for a long time, gangrene destroying much of the tissue around it.
Pete - 22 Jun 2006 18:45 GMT >>>>>> Thanks. Temujin. Sounds a lot like where I am now. I would have >>>>>> just appreciated a little more explanation and context from my [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > more about the subject than most patients, or maybe it was all his > patients. I remember that story from before Rich :-)
> And it is impossible to know exactly what is happening inside. A > mechanic can tear the engine down and locate the problem. I had a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Found out it was ruptured. Rather it had been leaking for a long > time, gangrene destroying much of the tissue around it. docsafari@hotmail.com - 23 Jun 2006 17:34 GMT At four weeks post-PVP I have agonizing pain prior to, during , and (especially) after urinating. I also have the urgency when there is relatively little in my bladder.So you are not alone by any means. In my case the PVP was done to a prostate irradiated by seeds 11 months prior, so the extent of the pain (given that nerves are supposed to be dead in the prostate) is a mystery. I see the Uro next week to sort this out.
In your case, you might want to get back on the Flomax to help open things up. I also strongly urge that you have a bladder scan by your Uro immediately after voiding to see if you are still actually emptying your bladder rather than retaining and having overflow incontinence. Your urethra is undoubtedly still very raw, and your bladder, etc., irritated as well. Might be good to be checked for CRP (measure of inflammation), in which case an NSAID/anti-inflammatory would be advised. (That also helps with the pain.) I would think you would already be on an anti-inflammatory, as that is the normal treatment.
Hang in there. A lot of us have very painful side-effects from these procedires in that part of our body.
Richard
> I'm now 22 days post-pvp. Apparently had normal sized prostate but with > medial lobe problem. While my stream has picked up some strength and I [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Have any others had similar experiences at 3 weeks out, and can I > reasonably expect any eventual significant degree of relief?
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