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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / June 2006

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What to expect 1 wk post pvp

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steve - 06 Jun 2006 20:14 GMT
I wish I had discovered this ng prior to my pvp a week ago, 5/30/06, so
I would have had a better idea of the questions to ask my urologist
pre-op regarding realistic recovery expectations, as well as to
establish a pre-op baseline of various measures such as retention,
output and flow rate.  The Laserscope Web site paints such a rosy
picture that it would seem that the procedure is little worse than
having a tooth pulled.

Unfortunately, I'm having problems and am having difficulty getting my
surgeon to get back to me.

Based upon a comment by the Resident at the hospital after my pvp
surgery, I suspect that median lobe involvement appeared to be more of
the problem than overall BPH. I was also told that a biopsy was done.

When I was de-catherized 24 hrs post surgery in the hospital, I
couldn't void but a few drops, so I was re-catherized until Friday when
I returned to his office. After several hours of voiding (little
spurts/drops at a time)  periodically, I got down to retention of 135
ml from about 200+ and was allowed to return home without a catheter.
For the first 48 hours I still had great difficulty voiding, probably
only doing 10-20 ml at a time. By Sunday afternoon, I had gotten back a
weak, but steady stream, after some waiting and straining each time.
Urination was extremely painful at first; now it still hurts/burns
significantly, but not as badly as at first. Yesterday (Monday) and
today I am able to void 100 ml each time with a weak stream, but not
much weaker than pre-pvp. (i.e. my stream is probably nearly as strong
as pre-pvp, though that's not saying much.) Frequency during the day
depends upon how much I drink to accumulate the 100 ml I output.

The worst part is that overnight I'm waking up every 45-75 minutes with
the urge to void, but am voiding much less than the 100 ml I can do
during the day.  It's always slow and painful in coming at night. I am
still on Flomax (40 mg at morning and 40 mg at night) and Cipro 500 mg.
Also taking ibuprophen.

My prostate is a bit sore and I'm wondering if a non-bacterial
prostatitis might be the reason, or at least a contributing factor.
I've had prostatitis a couple of times in my 55 years, and some of the
symptoms seem similar. I also wonder if I'm not having some bladder
spasm type of issues intermittently. Might the fact that a biopsy was
done also be a factor.

I've read where acidity in the urine can be a major reason for the pain
during urination (not to mention the traumas of the procedure and the
catherizations). Would raising the ph of my urine, for instance by
taking a little baking soda with a glass of water, help with the pain?

Are there any medications that are appropriate?  Two I've read about
are Prosed/DS and Phenazopyridine. (The Prosed/DS, however requires a
low ph of 5.5 or below to be most effective.) What about possible
palliative treatment such as a hot sitz bath, sitting in my spa (103
degrees) or applying ice to the prostate?

While I am noticing very slow improvement, as indicated above, the
frequency (approximately hourly) at night is obviously really
disruptive.

While I gather that my progress is less than optimal, I am far more
concerned about the prognosis for continued improvement. How much more
function can I reasonably expect to regain (eg. output, frequency,
retention, etc.) and over what period of time. Thanks to anyone who
takes the time to offer their insight.
Rich256 - 06 Jun 2006 20:41 GMT
> I wish I had discovered this ng prior to my pvp a week ago, 5/30/06, so
> I would have had a better idea of the questions to ask my urologist
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> retention, etc.) and over what period of time. Thanks to anyone who
> takes the time to offer their insight.

I can't help much.  I had mine May 2.  Catheter overnight.  That night
became very slow and somewhat painful but my morning I was back to where
I had been before the PVP.  Never did seem much blood but the somewhat
sharp pain when first starting to urinate continued for about two or
three weeks.  The most significant change was at the end of week three.
 Virtually no retention.  Now very strong stream but still get up a
couple times a night.  No medications.  Never could tolerate them.  Age: 76.
steve - 07 Jun 2006 00:52 GMT
Thanks. If I have significant improvement in 3 weeks, I'll be elated.
steve - 07 Jun 2006 00:54 GMT
> Thanks. If I have significant improvement in 3 weeks, I'll be elated.

It's encouraging to see that it has taken others more than a handful of
days to be back at 100% or better.
Temujin - 07 Jun 2006 12:48 GMT
Steve,
One week is still pretty early.  Despite Laserscope's rosy picture, PVP
is not like having your tooth filled.  You've just had a 1" diameter
hole burned through your prostate, and if you had a median lobe, your
bladder neck sphincter has been carved on as well.  You probably have
some swelling, causing the weak stream, and leakage down to the primary
sphincter, causing the premature urgency.  If your symptoms are
improving, you're probably OK.  Just be patient.  Uros should do a
better job warning people about this stuff.  Some guys have reported
near-miraculous, instantaneous recoveries, but most of us have gone
through a healing process.  I had my PVP in mid March of this year, and
am just now starting to feel like I'm healed up.  I had immediate
powerful stream after the surgery, but the same false urgency you have,
peeing maybe 100 or 200 ml at a time.  That is now improving, and the
raw feeling on urination is also finally clearing up.  So for me, it
was a 3 month healing process.  Several other posters here have
reported 2 to 3 months as well, and some longer than that.  It's
frustrating to go through that trauma and not get immediate relief, but
hang in there, Steve, and let us know how things progress.
steve - 07 Jun 2006 13:42 GMT
Dear Temujin,
Thanks so much for your encouragement. Last night was better, having to
urinate only 4 times as opposed to 8 times the two prior nights. The
uro just go back to me a few minutes ago and said that, as long as I'm
improving, I shouldn't be concerned. He also suggested a hot bath
before bed would help with the spasms and better emptying of the
bladder, as well as the nightime frequency-which would, of course be at
least partially a function of the extent of my retention. He also
indicated that the drugs I mentioned would relax the bladder and make
it more difficult to empty it. The uro said that 100 ml at a time is OK
since I have been blocked up so long and that I'm only 8 days out. He
also reassured me that my bladder function should continue to improve.
I'm due to return to him for a follow up on 6-14-06.

Thanks for giving me some objective context and reassurance. I feel
much more "relieved" this morning. :)

Steve
Rich256 - 07 Jun 2006 14:56 GMT
> Steve,
> One week is still pretty early.  Despite Laserscope's rosy picture, PVP
> is not like having your tooth filled.  You've just had a 1" diameter
> hole burned through your prostate,

If I had a 1 inch hole burned there wouldn't anything left:-).

In any case looking at the before and after photos and you can see it is
pretty raw in there.  All black.  Had a small bar-b-q.   Another set I
saw showed what it looked like after about six months.  By then back to
a smooth round hole.
Pete - 06 Jun 2006 21:52 GMT
Steve...so sorry to hear about your dilemma.  Best I can say right now is to
keep bugging your uro.  Hot soaks in the tub are good for any kind of
prosatitis type pain or pelvic pain (CPPS) and I have soaked literally
thousands of times in my life.  Problem is when you get out of the tub the
pain/discomfort may come right back.  Heat increases blood flow and has a
nice relaxing way of taking the brain off the whatever is going on down
there.  Heat is generally not a cure though, so don't be mislead.

BTW, Flomax is .4 mg (not 40 mg) :-) . I wish you the best and please keep
us informed as to the developments that take place with your uro, and I hope
you improve soon...Pete

> I wish I had discovered this ng prior to my pvp a week ago, 5/30/06,
> so I would have had a better idea of the questions to ask my urologist
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> retention, etc.) and over what period of time. Thanks to anyone who
> takes the time to offer their insight.
Chockman - 07 Jun 2006 00:31 GMT
Hi Steve...

My PVP was done 2/23/05.  After the PVP, the URO put me on Bactrim DS
twice daily (5 days), and Pyridium 200 mg three times a day (6 2/3
days).  I was given a script for Tylenol #3 1-2 tabs q 4 hrs for pain.
My most discomfort was the lower GI pain associated with getting the GI
system back on line after the general anesthetic.  Had the
frequency/urgency issues for a couple of weeks.  Some feeling of rawness
during urination but that passed in a couple of weeks.  Only needed to
self catheterize for the first 12 hrs (3 times) and after that was okay
without a cath. Never did have any significant retention.  It is now 67
weeks since the procedure.

> I wish I had discovered this ng prior to my pvp a week ago, 5/30/06, so
> I would have had a better idea of the questions to ask my urologist
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> retention, etc.) and over what period of time. Thanks to anyone who
> takes the time to offer their insight.
docsafari@hotmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 16:21 GMT
I am two weeks post-PVP. I too urinate only with extreme (and I mean
extreme) pain, and also frequently and urgently. Remember, though, that
there is still  a healing wound in there and that the scab has to have
time to heal.  Part of your obstruction (and pain) may come from the
wound and its scab temporarily narrowing the opening.  My Uro said to
give it a good two weeeks, and to drink plenty of clear liquids (8
8-oz. glasses a day) to keep my urine dilute and less irritating.

Also essential is a soft stool. A hard stool/constipation is the enemy
of easy voiding in our situation, so get your liquids plus
fiber/Metamucil/stool softeners, etc.  I was urged to get 30 gms of
fiber per day.

BTW, I had a PVP 11 months after radioactive seeds, because I was in
severe urine retention all of that time.  One of the big issues with me
is whether my poor irradiated prostate can even heal after the PVP.

All the best,

Richard

> I wish I had discovered this ng prior to my pvp a week ago, 5/30/06, so
> I would have had a better idea of the questions to ask my urologist
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> retention, etc.) and over what period of time. Thanks to anyone who
> takes the time to offer their insight.
Rich256 - 07 Jun 2006 17:14 GMT
> I am two weeks post-PVP. I too urinate only with extreme (and I mean
> extreme) pain, and also frequently and urgently. Remember, though, that
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Richard

Are you totally off the catheter?
steve - 07 Jun 2006 21:03 GMT
Thanks, guys, for giving me some more perspective. I have been off the
catheter since leaving the uro's office Friday.  Today my stream is a
little stronger and the pain slightly less, so I am definitely seeing
some improvement. I risked a 50 mile drive through heavy suburban and
center city Philadelphia this AM for a professional meeting and had to
make 3 pit stops, but had been drinking LOTS of water. My stream was
strongest off the shoulder of a heavy interstate. :)  At least the
other 2 pit stops were in more conventional facilities.  The jostling
of the ride increased the urgency, but, though saturated, I was able to
sit comfortably through a 1 1/2 hr. meeting at my destination. Only 2
pit stops were required on the return trip.
Rich256 - 07 Jun 2006 23:45 GMT
> Thanks, guys, for giving me some more perspective. I have been off the
> catheter since leaving the uro's office Friday.  Today my stream is a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> sit comfortably through a 1 1/2 hr. meeting at my destination. Only 2
> pit stops were required on the return trip.

Obviously the bottom line is that the treatment affects all of us
differently.  We go in hoping for the miraculous results such as those
reported by "forlorn hope".  I have not seen any reporting really bad
results such as I have heard from people that had TURP.  Then again it
may be all the skill of the doctor.  Someone here said a while ago, they
would rather have TURP from a skilled doctor than PVP from an unskilled one.

My question about the catheter was really directed at Richard.  He has
been on self-cathing for about a year as a result of problems from
Radio-active seed therapy.  You think you have problems???  I was just
hoping that he has gotten some relief from the intense pain he has been
experiencing and hopefully getting some quality of life back.

I notice that urgency needs service a lot sooner since the PVP.  And
when going in for a physical I will have to time myself a bit.  More
like it used to be as I can't produce urine at any old time like I could
before the PVP.
forlorn hope - 09 Jun 2006 11:45 GMT
"Rich256" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:FGIhg.4783$mF2.1078@bgtnsc04-> Obviously the bottom line is that the
treatment affects all of us
> differently.  We go in hoping for the miraculous results such as those
> reported by "forlorn hope".

Hi Rich, everyone,
Derek F and I still correspond off-list and a few days ago he mentioned that
it would be coming up to a year since my PVP.  I thought it would be an idea
to contact the group to give a 'one year progress report' and downloaded the
messages. (I must admit I unsubscribed from sci.med.prostate.bph towards the
end of last year)  Reading through the messages after such a long absence it
was nice to see some familiar names still posting but I was astonished to
read your post and see a reference to myself after all this time.  I have
always thought that my results would be the norm for PVP and that the people
who don't get a complete cure from BPH are those who have other medical
problems which complicate things 'down there.'  Is that correct?  Reading
some of your posts I wonder if that is so or whether I was just lucky?
To recap, I went from average BPH symptoms that were hardly noticeable to
complete retention over a very short period of time.  Once the complete
retention was sorted out I went onto daily ISC, which I performed until my
PVP 9 months later.  I had  a median lobe obstruction which caused me to
retain about 200ml after urination, but the essential points of my
condition, I think, was that I had no other medical conditions of any kind.
So my problem was purely a mechanical one of blockage, and once that
blockage was removed by PVP everything returned to normal.  I hope that when
I reported my 'miraculous' cure I didn't raise false hopes in people who
have conditions that were not as straightforward.
I still thank my lucky stars that I found this newsgroup as my Uro wanted to
perform TURP and PVP is not available in my part of the country.  In fact I
had never heard of PVP until reading about it here, and it was thanks to
Magna, nambucca and a couple of other posters, that I heard about Gordon
Muir at Kings College, London and was able to return to a normal existence
and throw those damned catheters in the bin!
Best wishes
Huw
Rich256 - 09 Jun 2006 16:06 GMT
> "Rich256" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:FGIhg.4783$mF2.1078@bgtnsc04-> Obviously the bottom line is that the
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> Best wishes
> Huw
Hi,  Good to hear from you.  I am in frequent off-list communication
with Derek as well.  His results are quite similar to mine.

I expect there are many reasons for the difference in results.  And as
you point out the exact cause of blockage being most important.  Age and
other conditions also being quite important.  And of course your case
was most severe in having to self-catherize.

I got on this group about the same time as you and followed your search
for a cure.  I even recall your comment raising questions from the U.S.
by saying that you might have to go to Europe to find a doctor.

And you were also fortunate as Mr. Muir is obviously one of the most
experienced doctors in the world in performing PVPs.

As I reviewed the results I realized your's was exceptional but we
always hope!  In general they and the experiences of a couple friends
convinced me that PVP was a more desirable alternative to TURP.  As a
result I switched to a URO that did PVP.

He had only performed about 50 when I first went to him.  It was a year
before I finally had mine and by then he was well over the 100 mark.
forlorn hope - 09 Jun 2006 18:58 GMT
Hi Rich

"Rich256" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:S7gig.155805$Fs1.76235@bgtnsc05->
<snip> I expect there are many reasons for the difference in results.  And
as
> you point out the exact cause of blockage being most important.  Age and
> other conditions also being quite important.

Yes, this was what I was trying to say.  I still believe that most will have
similar results to myself but as they no longer have any symptoms of BPH
they lose interest in reading or posting to this newsgroup.  Consequently
you read more about problem PVPs than successful ones.

> And you were also fortunate as Mr. Muir is obviously one of the most
> experienced doctors in the world in performing PVPs.

He really was marvellous and I don't regret a penny of the quite
considerable cost!

> As I reviewed the results I realized your's was exceptional but we
> always hope!

Of course I should have mentioned that it wasn't a complete miracle cure, I
do have full retro.  I don't find that any problem, however, and hardly
worth mentioning compared to my circumstances prior to the PVP.  Nice
talking to you again Rich.
Best wishes
Huw
Rich256 - 09 Jun 2006 19:48 GMT
>> And you were also fortunate as Mr. Muir is obviously one of the most
>> experienced doctors in the world in performing PVPs.
>
> He really was marvellous and I don't regret a penny of the quite
> considerable cost!

Since you have been absent for a while you may have missed Dr. Sancha's
posts.

His blog:

http://drgomezsancha2.blogspot.com

As I remember (you really should not trust that), when Dr. Sancha was
asked if he knew Mr. Muir he replied that he was trained by him.

> Of course I should have mentioned that it wasn't a complete miracle cure, I
> do have full retro.  I don't find that any problem, however, and hardly
> worth mentioning compared to my circumstances prior to the PVP.  Nice
> talking to you again Rich.

And full retro here too.  But at my age - - !!
Pete - 10 Jun 2006 00:21 GMT
>>> And you were also fortunate as Mr. Muir is obviously one of the most
>>> experienced doctors in the world in performing PVPs.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> As I remember (you really should not trust that), when Dr. Sancha was
> asked if he knew Mr. Muir he replied that he was trained by him.

You are correct Rich...I have all of Dr. Sancha's posts and he did say that
he was trained by doctor Muir and that they were good friends :-) ...Pete

>> Of course I should have mentioned that it wasn't a complete miracle
>> cure, I do have full retro.  I don't find that any problem, however,
>> and hardly worth mentioning compared to my circumstances prior to
>> the PVP.  Nice talking to you again Rich.
>
> And full retro here too.  But at my age - - !!
Bruce - 10 Jun 2006 05:50 GMT
Hi Huw,

Thanks for the encouraging report.  I'm considering PVP and my
greatest concern is the likelihood that I will get retro because of my
median lobe involvement.  (My uro has said I'll probably end up with
retro.) I'm afraid of how that will effect my sexual experience.

We had a thread recently in which many of the guys who got retro as a
result of PVP discussed how they feel about it:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.prostate.bph/browse_thread/thread/70dfe8e
bee3d650e/1010b59057a3f36d?hl=en#1010b59057a3f36d


Would you be willing to share with us what effect retro has had on your
sex life?

Thanks,
Bruce

> Of course I should have mentioned that it wasn't a complete miracle cure, I
> do have full retro.  I don't find that any problem, however, and hardly
> worth mentioning compared to my circumstances prior to the PVP.  Nice
> talking to you again Rich.
> Best wishes
> Huw
forlorn hope - 10 Jun 2006 11:13 GMT
"Bruce" <BruceLSiegel@gmail.com> wrote in message > Would you be willing to
share with us what effect retro has had on your
> sex life?

Hi Bruce
I took Flomax before the PVP and a side effect of the drug (for me) was
retro so I was already used to the condition.  I can honestly say that post
PVP there is no difference in sensation for me whatsoever and having retro
doesn't matter a fig to me.  I'm sure that if retro had reduced the
pleasurable sensations then that would be a different matter, but it hasn't.
I'm the same age as you and I can't really understand your worry (or anybody
else's) about retro if they're middle aged, in a stable relationship and
don't intend to father more children.
The PVP changed my life 100% for the better, I have never suffered any ill
effects or
pain and a couple of months after the operation was trekking at high
altitude in the
Himalayas. (and peeing over some of the smaller peaks - no catheters in the
toilet tents!)
I've discovered that I still have the post I sent the group after my PVP
last June
in my 'Sent' folder, so I'll repost it .  I hope that it will show you and
any other new group members how trouble free a PVP can be.
Best wishes
Huw
Bruce - 10 Jun 2006 23:26 GMT
Hi Huw,

Thanks so much for your response.  I admit it--when it comes to
surgery, I'm a scaredy-cat.  It means a lot to me to hear from guys
like you.

Bruce

> "Bruce" <BruceLSiegel@gmail.com> wrote in message > Would you be willing to
> share with us what effect retro has had on your
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Best wishes
> Huw
docsafari@hotmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 16:23 GMT
I am two weeks post-PVP. I too urinate only with extreme (and I mean
extreme) pain, and also frequently and urgently. Remember, though, that
there is still  a healing wound in there and that the scab has to have
time to heal.  Part of your obstruction (and pain) may come from the
wound and its scab temporarily narrowing the opening.  My Uro said to
give it a good two weeeks, and to drink plenty of clear liquids (8
8-oz. glasses a day) to keep my urine dilute and less irritating.

Also essential is a soft stool. A hard stool/constipation is the enemy
of easy voiding in our situation, so get your liquids plus
fiber/Metamucil/stool softeners, etc.  I was urged to get 30 gms of
fiber per day.

BTW, I had a PVP 11 months after radioactive seeds, because I was in
severe urine retention all of that time.  One of the big issues with me
is whether my poor irradiated prostate can even heal after the PVP.

All the best,

Richard

> I wish I had discovered this ng prior to my pvp a week ago, 5/30/06, so
> I would have had a better idea of the questions to ask my urologist
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> retention, etc.) and over what period of time. Thanks to anyone who
> takes the time to offer their insight.
 
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