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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / April 2006color doppler ultrasound to detect prostate cancer?
I've had PSA and Free PSA and hope to avoid a biopsy, which may turn out to be negative like one I had 4 years ago. What do people think about color doppler ultrasound as a step towards clarifying the diagnoisis? Jesse Lemisch > I've had PSA and Free PSA and hope to avoid a biopsy, which may turn > out to be negative like one I had 4 years ago. What do people think > about color doppler ultrasound as a step towards clarifying the > diagnoisis? > > Jesse Lemisch Can't comment on your questions but suggest you also post the them to: sci.med.prostate.cancer On 4/22/06 8:31 AM, in article 1145719875.534088.197990@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com, "Jesse" <utopia1@attglobal.net> wrote: > I've had PSA and Free PSA and hope to avoid a biopsy, which may turn > out to be negative like one I had 4 years ago. What do people think > about color doppler ultrasound as a step towards clarifying the > diagnoisis? > > Jesse Lemisch The question seems to be like an oxymoron. Is malignant tissue supposed to travel at a different speed than than benign tissue? Bill -- Ferme le Bush > On 4/22/06 8:31 AM, in article > 1145719875.534088.197990@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com, "Jesse" [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Bill > -- Ferme le Bush I believe the only way to be certain as to whether or not cancer is present is by conducting a biopsy. I once saw a spot on on lung X-Ray and asked the doctor if the person had lung cancer and the doctor replied--"I don't know until I see the results of the biopsy." Jason  SignatureNEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. On 4/22/06 1:14 PM, in article jason-2204061314270001@66-52-22-17.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net, "Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote: > I believe the only way to be certain as to whether or not cancer is > present is by conducting a biopsy. I once saw a spot on on lung X-Ray and > asked the doctor if the person had lung cancer and the doctor replied--"I > don't know until I see the results of the biopsy." > Jason But what does doppler do? Bill -- Ferme le Bush > > On 4/22/06 8:31 AM, in article > > 1145719875.534088.197990@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com, "Jesse" [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > don't know until I see the results of the biopsy." > Jason Doctors have been taught that tissue is the standard, but I think the science and computers and new technology have made that almost obsolete. > > > On 4/22/06 8:31 AM, in article > > > 1145719875.534088.197990@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com, "Jesse" [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Doctors have been taught that tissue is the standard, but I think the > science and computers and new technology have made that almost obsolete. Only time will tell. As of now, doctors can NOT look at a picture of a tumor and determine whether or not it cancerous. They either remove the tumor--eg. breast tumor--or they take a biopsy. In both cases, the doctor does not know whether or not cancer was present until tests are done on the tumor or on the biopsy. In some cases, such as a "spot" on a lung X-Ray-they may take X-Rays of the lung every three months to determine if the "spot" growns in size or remains the same size. In some cases, "spots" on the lung are nothing more than scars instead of tumors. Jason SignatureNEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. >>> On 4/22/06 8:31 AM, in article >>> 1145719875.534088.197990@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com, "Jesse" [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > science and computers and new technology have made that almost > obsolete. Sorry ugg...but I have to agree with Jason whole heartedly. I'm not an expert on all the scanning techniques for internal organs, but I know of nothing to date that will identify cancer tissue (like you can by looking at it under a microscope). So where are you coming from when you say that "science and computers and new technology have made that almost obselete". Please explain and give some examples if you can...Pete Sorry ugg...but I have to agree with Jason whole heartedly. I'm not an expert on all the scanning techniques for internal organs, but I know of nothing to date that will identify cancer tissue (like you can by looking at it under a microscope). So where are you coming from when you say that "science and computers and new technology have made that almost obselete". Please explain and give some examples if you can...Pete What I am saying is that there are further steps you can take before doing a biopsy, or many other invasive procedures. Virtual Colonoscopy is just one example where the detection rates are as good or better than a regular colonoscopy. Reference The National Cancer Institute article in the New England Journal of Medicine, December 4, 2003. "Summary, In a study of people at average risk for colorectal cancer, a screening technique known as virtual colonoscopy was just as accurate as traditional colonoscopy at detecting signs of colon or rectal cancer, and was less invasive." As far as the prostate, the Prostate Cancer Research Institute (PCRI) at UCSF has the noninvasive MSRI which looks at the prostate in mm slices physically and then with spectroscopic imaging down to the molecular level with "demonstrated high specificity in identifying cancer". In my own opinion, I would want to know if there was anything to biopsy and if there was then exactly where to take the biopsy. Again, in my own opinion, I would use the 21st Century technology before having any invasive tests in the preliminary stages. The final confirmation of any diagnosis would have to be tissue. > Sorry ugg...but I have to agree with Jason whole heartedly. I'm not > an [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > as accurate as traditional colonoscopy at detecting signs of colon or > rectal cancer, and was less invasive." The key words here are "detecting signs of colon cancer or rectal cancer". You still need to get a biopsy, so you just wasted your time getting the virtual bullshit, and will need an endoscopic colonoscopy anyway to get a biopsy, so now you have to do the prep all over again (which is the hard part), and you lost the money you just paid for the virtual (that is probably not covered by your insurance). And I'll take a colonoscopy any day compared to all the radiation you get in a full body catscan. The catscan is way more invasive IMO. Except for the anesthesia risk associted with EGD's and colonoscopies, they are simple procedures...Pete As far as the prostate, the > Prostate Cancer Research Institute (PCRI) at UCSF has the noninvasive > MSRI which looks at the prostate in mm slices physically and then with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the preliminary stages. The final confirmation of any diagnosis > would have to be tissue. > > Sorry ugg...but I have to agree with Jason whole heartedly. I'm not > > an [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > the preliminary stages. The final confirmation of any diagnosis > > would have to be tissue. Pete, I agree with you. Doctors can learn a lot by looking at X-Rays and the test results of other types of scanning equipment. They are looking for tumors and other signs of cancer. However, the doctors needs to remove the tumor or do a biopsy to know for sure whether or not cancer was present. Perhaps special equipment will be developed in the future that will be able to determine the presence of cancer cells. However, as far as I know, no such equipment now exists. Doctors may make guesses when they see a tumor on a Scan--but they do not know for sure until tests are none on the tumor or the biopsy. Jason SignatureNEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. >>> Sorry ugg...but I have to agree with Jason whole heartedly. I'm not >>> an [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > on the tumor or the biopsy. > Jason You are right Jason. That's what the damn pathologists and microscopes are for :-) ...Pete The key words here are "detecting signs of colon cancer or rectal cancer". You still need to get a biopsy, so you just wasted your time getting the virtual bullshit, and will need an endoscopic colonoscopy anyway to get a biopsy The question is if you don't detect any signs of colon cancer or rectal cancer, then you don't need a biopsy. Here's another example, when you go to the dentist and he thinks there might be a cavity but can't see it, he has two choices. Drill and look or get more information by taking an xray. I think an xray would be prudent to confirm a cavity. I'm not saying technology is all inclusive, but I sure would avail myself of all the non invasive exams prior ot any "procedures". > The key words here are "detecting signs of colon cancer or rectal > cancer". [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I'm not saying technology is all inclusive, but I sure would avail > myself of all the non invasive exams prior ot any "procedures". There is a BIG difference between a cavity in a tooth and a tumor. The scans (eg X-Rays, etc) are usually done in an attempt to find tumors. After tumors are found--a biopsy is done or the tumor is removed. The cells are examined under a microscope to determine if cancer cells are present or not present. Jason SignatureNEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. > The key words here are "detecting signs of colon cancer or rectal > cancer". [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > sure would avail myself of all the non invasive exams prior ot any > "procedures". Ugg...your missing a couple of my main points. Catscans are far from non-invasive (they are very invasive - a simple chest CT is equivalent to approx 100 flat view chest x-rays - you need to study radiation if you think that catscans are non-invasive ). Plus, the damn virtual full body scans (which may or may not include the colonoscopy) are very expensive and not covered by insurance. They basically open up a can of worms, for further investigation into something that is unlikely to be cancer in most cases (haven't you heard or read about this stuff - ie the virtual controversy). It's been on the news for years now. I told you the that EGD's and colonoscopies are not that invasive (except for the possible risk with general anesthesia, which you would probably know about if you had GA before). Go ahead and waste your money on the virtual colonoscopy if you want to, because if it finds anything, you will end up with a real colonoscopy anyway. People have the virtual stuff (mostly the more well to do people who can afford it) basically because they are over 50 and looking for a peace of mind (and they don't even have any symptoms). Then when it shows something suspicious, they are usually headed for a barrage of further tests, even though it may not be anything serious. I think it is bullshit personally, and that is my opinion. Don't kid yourself its all about making money in this beautiful (dog eat dog) capitalistic world we live in Pete > > The key words here are "detecting signs of colon cancer or rectal > > cancer". [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Pete Pete, Several months ago, I read an article about the virtual colonoscopy. One danger that you did not mention (unless I missed it) is the radiation exposure that happens when a virtual colonscopy is done. I don't have the article in front of me but I seem to recall reading that it produces what I consider to be dangerous levels of radiation. A regular colonoscopy causes NO radiation exposure. You may want to do a google search on this subject before you consider it. Perhaps someone can compare the radiation exposure produced by a virtual colonscopy compared to a standard dental X-Ray. Jason SignatureNEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. >>> The key words here are "detecting signs of colon cancer or rectal >>> cancer". [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > X-Ray. > Jason And before you have a colonscopy done you might now see if the doctor uses the pill camera. Perhaps that will indicate if further inspection is needed. http://www.healthcare.ucla.edu/vital-signs/article-display?article_id=423 As for radiation, anyone catch the History Channel on the foot Xray machines? Just a few days earlier I was just talking about and how we would go into shoe stores to look at our feet with their Xray machine. I wonder how many shoe salesmen of the day died of radiation. > >>> The key words here are "detecting signs of colon cancer or rectal > >>> cancer". [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > would go into shoe stores to look at our feet with their Xray machine. > I wonder how many shoe salesmen of the day died of radiation. If a 50 year old person received a virtual colonoscopy every 5 years, he or she is putting their future health in danger. There is usally NO danger involved in getting a normal colonoscopy every 5 years--after the age of 50 years old. Jason SignatureNEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. >>> In article <124th3pev79gr77@corp.supernews.com>, "Pete" > <pete@nospam.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > 50 years old. > Jason Virtual may not be as thorough as normal. I have seen something to the effect of what you say about radiation but there say no: "Researchers from the Center for Radiological Research at Columbia University Medical Center estimated the radiation dose to different organs from adult CT colonography scans. Dose-, organ- and gender-specific excess relative risks for cancer incidence in Japanese A-bomb survivors were used as a basis to generate risk estimates for the U.S. population. This study found the estimated lifetime risk of cancer as a result of radiation from CT colonography in a 50-year-old subject is about 0.14 percent and 0.022 percent for a 70-year-old patient. The main organs found to be at risk for cancer are the colon, stomach and bladder." http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=26899 Then compare deaths to the Anesthesia. >> In article <ajO3g.4289$xX5.78@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, >> Rich256 [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > > Then compare deaths to the Anesthesia. Colonscopy is not without dangers either. Several years ago I have strong suspicions that a Sigmoidoscopy resulted in a ruptured appendix. When finally operated on the Dr. said it had been ruptured (leaking) for at least three weeks. I won't say that the Sigmoidoscopy about two months earlier did it but I experienced a lot of pain during it (age 62 I think). I have had Colonscopyies since. > >> In article <ajO3g.4289$xX5.78@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, > >> Rich256 [quoted text clipped - 111 lines] > > I have had Colonscopyies since. Hello, There are risks related to almost all invasive medical procedures. I saw a story on the television related to some of those cases where doctors operated on (or removed) the wrong arm or leg. Jason SignatureNEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. >>>> In article <ajO3g.4289$xX5.78@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, >>>> Rich256 [quoted text clipped - 116 lines] > doctors operated on (or removed) the wrong arm or leg. > Jason I caught the end of that. The doctor initialing something on the arm. That appendix problem was kind of different. I was feeling just fine until one day the pain hit. Went to the GP who sent me to the surgeon. My white cell count was normal but he put me in the hospital. They checked me for prostate problems about 10 times!! Finally he said there wasn't anything to do but take a look. Operated abut midnight. I woke up to the voice of a female intern who had been with me all day. She said "you are lucky, you are really lucky, it was ruptured - I couldn't believe it". As I said I think it was really leaking and gangrene had set in around the area. Spent a week in the hospital with 3 bags of stuff dripping into my arms. > >>>> In article <ajO3g.4289$xX5.78@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, > >>>> Rich256 [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > >>>>> uses the pill camera. Perhaps that will indicate if further > >>>>> inspection is needed. http://www.healthcare.ucla.edu/vital-signs/article-display?article_id=423 > >>>>> As for radiation, anyone catch the History Channel on the foot Xray > >>>>> machines? Just a few days earlier I was just talking about and how [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > gangrene had set in around the area. Spent a week in the hospital with > 3 bags of stuff dripping into my arms. That's an interesting story. You may have grounds for a lawsuit. I did not know that it was possible for a doctor to rupture the appendix as a result of making use of a Sigmoidoscopy. I guess the doctor would deny that he ruptured your appendix. I know of one local doctor that operated on the back of a patient. The patient's back is now much worst than it was prior to the surgery. The doctor even cut some blood vessels leading to his right leg. The doctor (of course) denies that he done anything wrong during the surgery. The patient now has a limp when he walks and had to quit his job since his back hurts when he moves in certain directions or stands up more than 5 minutes. Jason SignatureNEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. >>>>>> In article <ajO3g.4289$xX5.78@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, >>>>>> Rich256 [quoted text clipped - 140 lines] > stands up more than 5 minutes. > Jason Yeah, I suppose a law suit would have been possible. But I didn't even think it would be proper. I remember when it started I wondered what that loud "put-put" noise was. Then finally realized that it was an air compressor blowing up the intestines. Anything with the spine is dangerous. My wife has severe back pains. We talked to a surgeon and his comment was if she can live with it best to do nothing. He could not guarantee that an operation would not make it worse. I often defend the doctors saying it is pretty hard to do anything with the body without some danger of doing damage. I just signed a paper saying I recognize all the listed possibilities of having the PVP, the last of which was "Death". It is good to let the patient know. Just sad that they have to do that to clear themselves of the legal implications. Kind of like a mechanic working on your car telling you all the things that might go wrong before he starts to tear it apart and having you sign a statement agreeing he is not responsible. > >>>>>> In article <ajO3g.4289$xX5.78@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, > >>>>>> Rich256 [quoted text clipped - 160 lines] > telling you all the things that might go wrong before he starts to tear > it apart and having you sign a statement agreeing he is not responsible. I like your attitude about your case. Thank goodness that your problems are behind you and that there was no long term disabilities. The patient that I mentioned will be disabled for the rest of his life because of the errors that the surgeon made during the operation on his back. Jason SignatureNEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. >If a 50 year old person received a virtual colonoscopy every 5 years, he >or she is putting their future health in danger. There is usally NO danger >involved in getting a normal colonoscopy every 5 years--after the age of >50 years old. I'll disagree about NO danger. Anesthesia, even if it doesn't actually put the patient completely to sleep, presents some risks. So does the recovery. Just getting taken out of the hospital and being driven home not understanding what was going on, barely able to walk, and half-conscious presents some risk that I'd fall over and hurt myself. And I think I did fall over a couple of times after my (real) colonoscopy, but I was too out of it to really notice and the damage wasn't very noticible several days later. Getting left home alone in that condition presents a very real possibility I don't have a chance to actually get out of bed and take care of myself before dehydration, starvation, and/or hypoglycemia take over (after 3 1/2 days) and make sure I never will. That made it somewhat riskier than Russian Roulette with 2 bullets in the gun. Gordon L. Burditt > >If a 50 year old person received a virtual colonoscopy every 5 years, he > >or she is putting their future health in danger. There is usally NO danger [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Gordon L. Burditt Gordon, Please note that I used the words "usally no danger" in my post. There is always some risk involved in almost all invasive medical procedures. That's the reason we have to sign all of those papers prior to surgery. Those papers help protect doctors from lawsuits when they screw up--such as cutting off the wrong arm or leg. Jason SignatureNEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. >> >If a 50 year old person received a virtual colonoscopy every 5 years, he >> >or she is putting their future health in danger. There is usally NO danger [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Gordon, >Please note that I used the words "usally no danger" in my post. There is Many dangers are still there whether or not anything bad happens in one particular case. I don't think there are any patients for which there is absolutely NO risk they just stop breathing and can't be revived with anesthesia, even though the risk is tiny. Granted, sometimes the risk only applies to certain people, for example, I don't have to worry about problems that only apply if I'm pregnant. I'd accept "usually no danger" if the only way to be hurt is to be allergic to peanuts or have a rare genetic deficiency. But everyone breathes. >always some risk involved in almost all invasive medical procedures. And for anesthesia, the problem may happen even if the invasive part of the procedure never happens (e.g. the probe or laser or whatever breaks before getting it near me, so they wake me up and send me home). And I suspect there is some very small risk that someone is very allergic to the anesthesia and doesn't even live long enough to get to the invasive part. I don't know whether I'm allergic to penicillin (no, that's not an anesthetic) or not, but there was an incident in childhood which suggests that me or one of my siblings is. I always tell doctors I might be. A doctor offered to test me to see if it was really a problem. I declined (as I recall, the bad reaction as a child caused severe itching but nothing really dangerous). Another doctor says that such a test could be fatal in minutes if I was seriously allergic, even if I started already hooked up to monitors in the emergency room, and was given a very small dose. He also said it was unlikely I'm still allergic as an adult, but he's not giving me any penicillin. >That's the reason we have to sign all of those papers prior to surgery. >Those papers help protect doctors from lawsuits when they screw up--such >as cutting off the wrong arm or leg. A lot of the risks are present even if no one screws up. If I did fall over and twist my ankle in the hospital while in an anesthesia-induced fog and trying to get dressed per nurse's instructions, was that someone's mistake? Is letting me recover home alone a mistake? (He did say I couldn't drive home, and I didn't). Is suddenly discovering I'm allergic to some drug I've never taken before (with a known risk of one in a billion having problems) causing death in 2 minutes someone's mistake? Gordon L. Burditt > >> >If a 50 year old person received a virtual colonoscopy every 5 years, he > >> >or she is putting their future health in danger. There is usally NO danger [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > Gordon L. Burditt Gordon, Thanks for your interesting post. I agree that lots of things can go wrong 1. before the surgery takes place. 2. while the surgery is taking place. 3. after the surgery takes place. Some famous person said something like: I stay away from hospitals since more people die in hospitals than anywhere else. I agree. However, most of us will probably in up in a hospital bed at least one or more times before we die. Jason SignatureNEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. >>> The key words here are "detecting signs of colon cancer or rectal >>> cancer". [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > X-Ray. > Jason Jason...you need new glasses. I very deliberately addressed the danger of radiation associated with catscans in my previous post and even compared a chest catscan to a flat view chest x-ray. I get the feeling you only read what you want to sometimes :-) . And the radiation levels in catscans are way beyond the minuscule levels in a dental x-ray. Now I will tell you the same thing I told "ugg" - you need to study radiation and radiation poisoning, and look at some of the articles by the leading medical physicists in the world, da da da da. I repeat catscans have large levels of radiation, and the more often you have them the higher the risk of developing cancer later on, or some other malady caused by damage to an organ(s). Pete > >>> The key words here are "detecting signs of colon cancer or rectal > >>> cancer". [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > Pete Pete, My post was directed to the poster that was considering a virtural colonscopy. Jason SignatureNEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. >>>>> The key words here are "detecting signs of colon cancer or rectal >>>>> cancer". [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > My post was directed to the poster that was considering a virtural > colonscopy. Jason Jason...your post was addressed directly to me and made reference to my post that you were replying to. Here is your post - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete, Several months ago, I read an article about the virtual colonoscopy. One danger that you did not mention (unless I missed it) is the radiation exposure that happens when a virtual colonscopy is done. I don't have the article in front of me but I seem to recall reading that it produces what I consider to be dangerous levels of radiation. A regular colonoscopy causes NO radiation exposure. You may want to do a google search on this subject before you consider it. Perhaps someone can compare the radiation exposure produced by a virtual colonscopy compared to a standard dental X-Ray. Jason --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think you are losing it Jason. I quit :-) ...Pete > >>>>> The key words here are "detecting signs of colon cancer or rectal > >>>>> cancer". [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > > I think you are losing it Jason. I quit :-) ...Pete Pete, I understand your point. I should have made it clear in my prior post that I was providing information for the poster that was considering a virtural colonscopy. I agree with the comments that you made in your post. See the next post. Regardless--I am sorry for my error. Jason SignatureNEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. |
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