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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / February 2006

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saw palmetto not effective?

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Gunther Abrahamson - 25 Feb 2006 20:06 GMT
WEDNESDAY, Feb. 8, 2006 (HealthDay News) -- Millions of older American men
use the herbal supplement saw palmetto to treat an enlarged prostate, but
a new study concludes the product doesn't work.

A few smaller studies had suggested the extract might be of limited
benefit to men with enlarged prostate, clinically known as benign
prostatic hyperplasia (BPH).

However, this controlled, blinded study of 225 men found that, "over a
12-month period, saw palmetto was no better than placebo in changing
symptoms for this condition," said lead researcher Dr. Stephen Bent, an
assistant professor of medicine at the University of California, San
Francisco.

His team's research, published in the Feb. 9 issue of the New England
Journal of Medicine, is "the most thorough and well-controlled study of
the effect of saw palmetto on men with BPH that's ever been done," added
Dr. Ronald A. Morton, director of urologic oncology at the Cancer
Institute of New Jersey.

Morton, who co-authored a related editorial on the findings, said,
"Obviously, for anyone who holds saw palmetto in high regard, these
results are a little bit disappointing."

Still, both experts agreed there's no evidence that the herb -- an extract
of a seed from a scrub palm that grows naturally in the southeastern
United States -- poses any long-term safety hazard to users.

"So, if people are taking this and feel like they are getting some
benefit, I think it's worth continuing," Bent said.

He noted that the science on the efficacy of saw palmetto for BPH has been
ambiguous, with some studies suggesting a benefit and others finding it to
be of no help at all.

"Those studies were of short duration, however, or they didn't use what is
now the standard measure of symptoms," Bent said. "They also didn't report
on what we call the 'adequacy of blinding' -- we never knew in these prior
studies whether patients in the placebo group knew they were on placebo or
not."

His team sought to redress a lot of those issues, taking special care to
ensure proper blinding and using a pool of patients large enough to gain
sufficient statistical power.

They also went to great lengths to choose a top-notch product -- in this
case, a brand of saw palmetto capsules marketed in the United States by
Rexall-Sundown Co. "We had an external advisory committee from the
National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, experts in the
field, who evaluated a number of different extracts," Bent said. "They
felt this was the best one."

Rexall-Sundown did not respond to requests for comment.

In the trial, the researchers tracked the symptoms of 225 men over the age
of 49 with moderate-to-severe BPH. Half of the men took 160 milligrams of
saw palmetto twice daily, while the other half took an inactive placebo.

At the one-year mark, the researchers found no difference between the two
groups in terms of symptom scores, urine flow rates, prostate size,
quality of life, or blood levels of prostate-specific antigen (PSA), a
marker for enlarged prostate.

Morton agreed with Bent that saw palmetto is probably safe for users. But
he questioned whether too many men plagued by enlarged prostate are using
this ineffective remedy in lieu of conventional drugs whose efficacy has
long been supported by clinical research.

"There are two medications that we commonly use for men with BPH," said
Morton, who is also chief of the division of urology at Robert Wood
Johnson Medical School at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New
Jersey. "One includes drugs called alpha blockers, and the other group is
5-alpha-reductase inhibitors. Alpha blockers cause a relaxation of the
prostate that makes it easier for a man to urinate. And 5-alpha-reductase
inhibitors shrink the prostate."

Either of these medications might be more effective than over-the-counter
saw palmetto, Morton said.

He held out the possibility that formulations other than the
Rexall-Sundown brand used in the study might still be of benefit to some
users. "I do believe, though, that the investigators went to great lengths
to ensure the purity of the compound that they were testing," he said.

In a statement, Andrew Shao, vice president of the Council for Responsible
Nutrition, a supplements industry trade group, called the findings
"puzzling, given that more than 20 studies have shown promising findings
for saw palmetto in alleviating symptoms commonly associated with prostate
problems."

He agreed the study was "well-designed," but blamed its negative findings
on the researchers' focus on patients with moderate-to-severe BPH.
According to Shao, the bulk of the positive literature on saw palmetto
involves men with milder symptoms.

"The exclusion of those patients with mild symptoms from the study may
have reduced [its] ability to detect the benefits we've seen in other
trials," he said.

A much bigger issue, according to Bent and Morton, is the lack of
regulation and oversight of herbals and other alternative medicines, which
are not tested or checked for quality by the U.S. Food and Drug
Administration in the same way that conventional drugs are.

"There are millions and millions of men out there who take saw palmetto,"
Morton said. "And if you review the literature on saw palmetto, it's
really all over the map. Quite frankly, I'm not certain that the FDA would
approve it -- I'm pretty certain they would not. But it's simply not held
to the same standard."
Michael Balarama - 25 Feb 2006 21:16 GMT
seems to work  for me-I take 225 mg extract every night-
Michael

> WEDNESDAY, Feb. 8, 2006 (HealthDay News) -- Millions of older American men
> use the herbal supplement saw palmetto to treat an enlarged prostate, but
[quoted text clipped - 105 lines]
> approve it -- I'm pretty certain they would not. But it's simply not held
> to the same standard."
Michael Balarama - 26 Feb 2006 01:19 GMT
I was wrong--I take 480 mg extract every night-
Michael
> seems to work  for me-I take 225 mg extract every night-
> Michael
[quoted text clipped - 108 lines]
> > approve it -- I'm pretty certain they would not. But it's simply not held
> > to the same standard."
Rich256 - 26 Feb 2006 02:40 GMT
As I recall the study made some comment to the effect that higher
dosages might produce different results.  I think the recommended amount
is typically 320 mg a day.

Someone I know takes about double the recommended amount and swears it
helps him.

Even that doesn't do a thing for me.

> I was wrong--I take 480 mg extract every night-
> Michael
[quoted text clipped - 136 lines]
> held
>>> to the same standard."
Ed - 26 Feb 2006 02:56 GMT
>As I recall the study made some comment to the effect that higher
>dosages might produce different results.  I think the recommended amount
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Even that doesn't do a thing for me.

I'm not surprised that folks believe in it. The studies show that 75%
report improvement of symptoms.

As you say, an increased dose might help. Who knows. There is
undoubtedly more to be discovered. The previous studies appear to have
missed something. Likewise the latest study will not be the last to
shed light on the subject either.

SP taken according to recommendations produces no or few side effects.
If one jacks up the dose to the point where it becomes effective, then
side effects could start to become significant too. I would be real
careful straying into unknown territory by tinkering with potentially
harmful stuff.

Anyway, they already have meds that fulfill the role that we wish for
SP, like Proscar. They put those meds through a lot of tests to make
sure they are safe. I would stick with the known treatment, under
supervision of a doc.

BTW, Proscar is known to be effective in most cases for reducing
prostate size, but the effect on flow rate is less dramatic and in
many cases it doesn't help very much.

Ed
Paul Kelly - 25 Feb 2006 22:33 GMT
(Snip)

Well it helped me big time and quickly.

Read the following

http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band73/b73-2.html

Extract:
Comment

There is good evidence that Saw palmetto is effective in men with
symptoms of benign Prostatic hyperplasia. Finasteride is now considered
to be best used in men with larger prostate volumes ( Bandolier 46 )
and, consequently, disease that may be considered more severe. We also
have excellent efficacy and adverse effect information from a very large
randomised trial ( Bandolier 50 , [3]). We don't quite have the same
extent of information for Saw palmetto. The evidence on Saw palmetto is
sufficient, though, to make it worth considering for men with milder
symptoms.

Signature

PK
Remove the xtra y from my name in the email address if replying

c palmer - 26 Feb 2006 01:20 GMT
Millions of older American men use the herbal supplement saw palmetto to
treat an enlarged prostate, but a new study concludes the product
doesn't work.
=========

i think that is what the public is missing in the above paragraph.   SP
doesn't do anything to treat the enlarged prostate condition, but it
DOES relieve the symptoms of BPH.  there is a difference.

as long as the user understands that taking SP is making him feel
better, and that the BPH condition is not getting any better just
because of his well being, then, i don't see any problems with that.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Pete - 26 Feb 2006 02:29 GMT
> Millions of older American men use the herbal supplement saw palmetto
> to treat an enlarged prostate, but a new study concludes the product
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> SP doesn't do anything to treat the enlarged prostate condition, but
> it DOES relieve the symptoms of BPH.  there is a difference.

Curtis...I'm not sure I agree with this.  I don't take SP, but I have stated
in this ng before that the active ingredient in it for inhibiting
dyhydrotestosterone is beta sistosterol, and that I thought it would be
better to take concentrated beta sitosterol.

So if you are saying that it doesn't help reduce the size of the prostate
(in time of course), and it only "relieves the symptoms of BPH", by what
vehicle are you assuming it relieves the symptoms, if not by prostate size
reduction :-) ...Pete

> as long as the user understands that taking SP is making him feel
> better, and that the BPH condition is not getting any better just
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
> http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc 
c palmer - 26 Feb 2006 22:45 GMT
From: pete@nospam.net (Pete)
c palmer wrote:
Millions of older American men use the herbal supplement saw palmetto to
treat an enlarged prostate, but a new study concludes the product
doesn't work.
=========
i think that is what the public is missing in the above paragraph. SP
doesn't do anything to treat the enlarged prostate condition, but it
DOES relieve the symptoms of BPH. there is a difference.

Curtis...I'm not sure I agree with this. I don't take SP, but I have
stated in this ng before that the active ingredient in it for inhibiting
dyhydrotestosterone is beta sistosterol, and that I thought it would be
better to take concentrated beta sitosterol.
So if you are saying that it doesn't help reduce the size of the
prostate (in time of course), and it only "relieves the symptoms of
BPH", by what vehicle are you assuming it relieves the symptoms, if not
by prostate size reduction :-) ...Pete
as long as the user understands that taking SP is making him feel
better, and that the BPH condition is not getting any better just
because of his well being, then, i don't see any problems with that.
~ curtis

=========

hi pete - i think that ED said it best with....

But as you point out, Curtis, the underlying condition (prostate growth)
is not changing, and will catch you in the end.
Ed

-----

the physical BPH condition itself is not changing, the symptoms are
changing and if a man can get relief, any kind of relief, from whatever
herb or pill, is good news.

and as the individual taking something for the symptoms  - understand
this, i don't see a problem.

it's when someone is taking something with the understanding that the
BPH condition is going to go away that is a problem.

i'm not trying to stand on a soap box and preach to the choir about BPH
conditions and symptoms.  anyone here knows what they are going through.

where i'm coming from is that the prostate is changing as we age and we
have to stay on top of it's condition and monitor it if you want to stay
alive and in good health.  

nobody wants to get the bad news of prostate cancer.  nobody wants BPH
either.  

i've just found in talking with men, that they that what they are taking
is working and they don't want to look further.

my dad was one of them.  when he died from prostate cancer.  i must have
found 24 empty bottles of prostra formula laying around.  when i read
the label, it made some tall claims and one of the main ingredients was
SP.  

i think there really is a place for SP in BPH.   but, i guess the bottom
line is........ at what point does the person come to grips and realize
that the physical condition isn't getting any better and that taking
more SP is not the answer.  

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Pete - 27 Feb 2006 02:44 GMT
Curtis...I still don't agree, and you didn't explain what the vehicle is
whereby it reduces symptoms.  I believe the main way that SP is supposed to
relieve BPH symptoms (via the beta sitosterol in it inhibiting
dyhydrotestosterone) is by eventually helping to reduce the size of the
prostate (or by lessoning the rate of increase of the prostate), similar to
proscar.  Otherwise, I don't see how it can relieve your symptoms (ie better
flow, less retention, less urge, etc).  We can let this lay :-) ...Pete

> From: pete@nospam.net (Pete)
> c palmer wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
> old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
> http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc 
c palmer - 27 Feb 2006 09:18 GMT
hi pete - i did some digging and found this article about the technical
part of how the experiment was conducted.   whether or not anyone agrees
with the end results is....well.....up to them.   all i am is the
messager......

~ curtis

========

In their study, the researchers randomly assigned patients with
enlargement of the prostate, also known as or benign prostate
hyperplasia or BPH, to take either saw palmetto or a placebo twice a day
for one year. Subjects returned at regular intervals to be assessed for
symptoms and side effects. Symptoms were assessed according to a
standard symptom score for BPH and objective measures of urinary
function.
"If you look at the change in symptoms over time between the two groups,
it was almost identical," reports Bent, who is also an assistant
professor of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco.
"There was no statistically significant difference at any time point
during the study."
The researchers also looked at subgroups of patients - those with more
and less severe symptoms and those with larger and smaller prostates -
and found no difference in any of the subgroups between the herbal
extract and placebo.
"The results of this study clearly do not support a strong clinical
benefit of saw palmetto for BPH," concludes Bent. "However, whether
other doses, formulations, or patient populations might respond
differently is unknown."
The researchers estimate that saw palmetto is used by over two million
men in the United States for treatment of BPH, which is said by the
National Institutes of Health to affect more than 50 percent of men over
60 and upwards of 90 percent of men over 70.
Bent acknowledges that the study results are surprising, since many
earlier studies concluded that saw palmetto is effective against BPH.
However, he points out a number of differences between the current study
and earlier research.
"Prior studies were generally small in size and short in duration," he
says. "Plus, the vast majority of them did not use the standard symptom
score that we used for assessing the severity of BPH," which is now
commonly used to judge the efficacy of pharmaceutical drugs for
treatment of the condition.
Another potential problem with earlier studies has to do with the nature
of saw palmetto itself, according to Bent. "This is a very pungent herb,
and it took our research team a long time to create a placebo that
convincingly duplicates its strong smell and taste. We suspect that
prior trials didn't adequately address that problem." As a result, he
says, "it's possible that some of the positive findings in earlier work
may be due to the fact that the blinding wasn't adequate." In other
words, patients in those studies knew whether they were taking the herb
or the placebo, and "someone who's taking something that's smelly and
likely to be the plant extract is perhaps more likely to report a
benefit than someone who's taking an odorless and tasteless tablet."
At the end of the current study, 40 percent of patients in the saw
palmetto group believed they were taking the herbal extract versus 46
percent in the placebo group, demonstrating that the blinding was
adequate, says Bent.
Bent notes that his research team took pains to select an herbal product
that matched the levels of fatty acids and sterols - commonly believed
to be saw palmetto's active ingredients - found in most commonly
available commercial preparations of the herb.
Almost all prior studies of saw palmetto used exactly the same dose,
says Bent - 160 milligrams twice a day - and the current study used that
dose as well. He notes that such consistency of dose is not typical
among studies of most other herbal medications.
The current study subjects reported no statistically significant side
effects from saw palmetto.
Bent cautions that while the study is strongly indicative, it is not
conclusive. "This is a surprising finding that contradicts the weight of
prior evidence," he observes. "There is good reason for other
researchers to conduct another study to validate these results, taking
care that blinding is done carefully once again."
In addition, says Bent, "Some people believe that higher doses may be
potentially effective, and that's an area that we did not address."
A major new NIH-funded study of saw palmetto and another commonly-used
herbal treatment for BPH is currently in the final planning stages,
according to Avins, who is a co-author of the current study. The new
study will involve several hundred patients at 11 centers nationwide,
and researchers hope it will shed more definitive light on the questions
of adequate doses and other potentially useful natural treatments for
BPH, says Avins.
Other co-authors of the current study include Christopher Kane, MD, and
Katsuto Shinohara, MD, of SFVAMC; John Neuhaus, PhD, and Esther S.
Hudes, PhD, MPH, of UCSF; and Harley Goldberg, DO, of UCSF and KPNC.

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Ed - 26 Feb 2006 02:31 GMT
>Millions of older American men use the herbal supplement saw palmetto to
>treat an enlarged prostate, but a new study concludes the product
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>~ curtis

A placebo also helps the symptoms. The more the placebo resembles SP,
the more effective it is. What this really says is that SP doesn't
work... it's in the user's mind.

Or conversely I guess you could say that SP as well as placebos work
if the user believes they will work. And if the user is okay with
that, then that is okay.

But as you point out, Curtis, the underlying condition (prostate
growth) is not changing, and will catch you in the end.

Ed
Mason C - 26 Feb 2006 03:23 GMT
>WEDNESDAY, Feb. 8, 2006 (HealthDay News) -- Millions of older American men
>use the herbal supplement saw palmetto to treat an enlarged prostate, but
[quoted text clipped - 105 lines]
>approve it -- I'm pretty certain they would not. But it's simply not held
>to the same standard."

Who financed this test?

Why was the standard drug, finasteride(?), not included?

Discredite the herb; sell more prescription drug that is no better?

        Mason C
Gunther Abrahamson - 26 Feb 2006 17:57 GMT
Mason C (masonc2@earthlink.net) writes> On 25 Feb 2006 20:06:33 GMT, aa994@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gunther Abrahamson)
> wrote:

Who financed this test?

Why was the standard drug, finasteride(?), not included?

Discredite the herb; sell more prescription drug that is no better?

        Mason C

GOOD POINT !!
SP works for me.
Michael Balarama - 27 Feb 2006 02:40 GMT
> Mason C (masonc2@earthlink.net) writes> On 25 Feb 2006 20:06:33 GMT, aa994@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gunther Abrahamson)
> > wrote:
> >
> Who financed this test?

That is ALWAYS the question on these natural type of questions...Drug
companies do not want natural cures.
like , zinc sulfate,soy  isoflavones
saw palmetto extract ,
beta sitostero ,Pygeum,
Nettleroot powder,
Rye pollen extract,
Pumpkin seed powder,

Michael

> Why was the standard drug, finasteride(?), not included?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> GOOD POINT !!
> SP works for me.
Ed Friedman - 28 Feb 2006 20:49 GMT
You have to take this study with a grain of salt.  No mention was made
of any of the hormone levels of the patients involved, which is the key
to understanding BPH.  This study was limited to patients with severe
BPH, so it is reasonable to assume that these men had low levels of T.
Since, according to my model, you need higher levels of T in order for
saw palmetto to be effective (which would explain why other studies
involving mild BPH showed a positive effect for saw palmetto), it would
be expected that men with severe BPH would show no improvement.

Ed Friedman
 
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