Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / February 2006
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Darrell - 18 Feb 2006 03:49 GMT I subscribed to this ng several years ago. During the time I was a subscriber, I had enlarged prostate, was treated with proscar for a couple years and ended up having a TUMT in 2000. So far everything is working fine, I pee like a champ, I occasionally get up once during the night and when I do it flows like a waterfall. The problem I have is my PSA is fairly erratic. I was seeing the uro 3 times a year, PSA coming in at the 6 and 7 range. Once it was up to 9. I've been biopsied 3 times, each time negative. I was doing saw palmetto rather irregularly. I would use up a bottle or 2 and quit using for 6 months or so. A couple years ago I started religiously taking it, twice a day, 160mg each gel tab, one in the morning and one at night. My PSA went to 3 and stayed there as long as I was taking SP. I was only seeing the uro twice a year, PSA was staying in the 3's. Several months ago, I ran out of it (SP) and being the lazy, put-it-off person that I am, I didn't get a new bottle until about a month ago. Wed the 15th I saw the uro, had blood drawn, etc. I got the results today and PSA was back up to 6! The uro said to come back in a month for another blood draw for comparison. I've been seeing the same uro all this time, he's been voted one of the top uro's in Denver several times and he tells me that clinical tests show that saw palmetto has nothing to do with prostate health. When I talked with him today about the results, I explained again about my history with sp, how PSA goes up when I don't take and comes down when I do take it and again he says that there is no benefit from sp. So now I'm looking back over the last 3 years and thinking about what else I was doing that might have lowered my PSA. For the past 3 years I've been smoking pot almost every day. Please, no flames and no lectures about your thoughts on marijuana. I don't drink liquor, instead of having a cocktail in the evening, I would spend a little time with my water pipe. I quit smoking it about 3 weeks ago. My stash ran out and my connection seems to have lost interest in it. Has anybody else had experience with pot and PSA? I'm sure the US Government hasn't done any studies on the topic, but maybe a government who doesn't waste tons of money on the "War on Drugs" has done studies. Is anybody aware of such a study? I apologize if this message is too long. If you disagree with my use of marijuana, please keep it to yourself. Remember one thing, people die of alcohol poisoning. Nobody has ever died of cannabis poisoning.
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Derek F - 18 Feb 2006 11:30 GMT Always stop taking Saw Palmetto for about a week before a PSA test as it markedly lowers it. Also avoid having sex during that week as that also affects the PSA reading. Derek.
>I subscribed to this ng several years ago. During the time I was a > subscriber, I had enlarged prostate, was treated with proscar for a couple [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > marijuana, please keep it to yourself. Remember one thing, people die of > alcohol poisoning. Nobody has ever died of cannabis poisoning. Ed - 18 Feb 2006 16:16 GMT According to "Saw Palmetto and the Prostate" by Barton, page 120, "One of the benefits of saw palmetto in regards to prostate cancer is that saw palmetto does not appear to lower prostate specific (PSA) levels".
Then, "Unfortunately, there have been several incorrect statements made in various publications and on the Internet that saw palmetto extract lowers PSA. Despite this widely repeated rumor, there is not, and never has been, any documentation from clinical trials of saw palmetto that support this claim. In fact, evidence from several studies shows that saw palmetto doesn't lower PSA."
If you disagree with the above, pls give sources of information.
Ed
>Always stop taking Saw Palmetto for about a week before a PSA test as it >markedly lowers it. Also avoid having sex during that week as that also [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >> marijuana, please keep it to yourself. Remember one thing, people die of >> alcohol poisoning. Nobody has ever died of cannabis poisoning. Darrell - 18 Feb 2006 18:37 GMT > According to "Saw Palmetto and the Prostate" by Barton, page 120, "One > of the benefits of saw palmetto in regards to prostate cancer is that [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >I have no source of information that SP lowers PSA. However, folklore, or whatever, says it does. And with my own personal experience over the past 6 years, I find the times I take it on a regular basis, my PSA is lower than the times when I don't take it. To my way of thinking that little experiment with myself pretty much speaks for itself. For 3 years I took it every day, twice a day. My PSA stayed in the 3's. I went from seeing the uro 3 times a year to seeing him twice a year. When I stopped taking it, my PSA went back up to 6, which is where it was before I started taking SP. Actually, when I wasn't taking SP, my PSA was all over the place, between 6 and 9 (I think that was the highest). My uro was concerned about the numbers he was getting and 3 seperate times I had biopsies done. No fun! But they all came back negative.
Darrell
Chockman - 18 Feb 2006 19:59 GMT Take a look at the following reference for another opinion...
http://www.priory.com/med/saw.htm
I remember reading in some Prostate book (connected with the Mayo Clinic) that they advised not having sex or having any type of manipulation of the prostate for 48 hrs prior to a PSA test.
>>According to "Saw Palmetto and the Prostate" by Barton, page 120, "One >>of the benefits of saw palmetto in regards to prostate cancer is that [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Darrell Ed - 19 Feb 2006 00:48 GMT I took saw palmetto for a few years. My uro told me bluntly that saw palmetto does not affect the PSA. And he was right, at least in my case. It did not affect mine. (In fact, the PSA eventually went up and symptoms worsened, so in my case SP failed to slow the growth of the prostate.)
Who knows, it may be more complicated than we think. I would just suggest that we need to be careful in presenting information as fact when it might just be an opinion or personal experience or heresay.
For instance... twice at least I went into retention just after stopping a course of ibuprofen. I told my uro, and he said, "Coincidence." I'm not really in a strong position to say that he was wrong just based on my personal experience and claim that ibuprofen can resolve BPH. He has the training, so I think he was probably right.
My personal view on saw palmetto is that it does not affect PSA and also that it is ineffective for treating BPH.
See http://tinyurl.com/a8eal and http://tinyurl.com/9h8uv for info on a recent study. Beware the placibo effect!
Apart from having no effect on PSA and no effect on BPH, it also has no side effects! (except on your wallet.)
I agree that physical stimulation of the gland can increase PSA.
Ed
>Take a look at the following reference for another opinion... > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> >> Darrell Derek F - 19 Feb 2006 23:41 GMT I am told that doctors in Germany prescribe saw palmetto for BPH. Derek.
>I took saw palmetto for a few years. My uro told me bluntly that saw > palmetto does not affect the PSA. And he was right, at least in my [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] >>> >>> Darrell Paul Kelly - 20 Feb 2006 08:35 GMT >I am told that doctors in Germany prescribe saw palmetto for BPH. >Derek. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> symptoms worsened, so in my case SP failed to slow the growth of the >> prostate.) For all the Bandolier articles on BHP http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/booths/bph.html
for one on Saw Palmetto http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band73/b73-2.html
read first and then decide on this evidence if thinking Saw Palmetto.
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docsafari@hotmail.com - 20 Feb 2006 15:47 GMT Ibuprofen: I am not surprised that stopping Ibuprofen led to urine retention, since Ibuprofen does reduce swelling/inflammation and those are core problems with prostate/BPH/urination issues. (I had exactly the same problem after brachytherapy when I had to stop Ibuprofen altogether due to an intestinal hemorrhage -- one risk of Ibu.) Many Uros prescribe anti-inflammatories such as Ibu routinely after prostate procedures to aid urination, and there is a lot of data to support this.. As to Saw Palmetto, one person's experience should not be used as the gauge for others. Most of the careful studies find that it is NOT effective overall. If I found my PSA lower while taking SP I would also ask myself was there anything else different in what I was doing at the time that might also bear on PSA. Also, how many measures of your PSA are we talking about here? If it is only a handful over time I would not consider that very hard data. but, if it seems to work for you, go for it.
Thanks, and best of luck to all.
Richard
P.S. Does anyone know of a site/group devoted to issues of severe long-term urine retention (which i have had for 8 months) and self-cathing?
Derek F - 18 Feb 2006 20:27 GMT >> According to "Saw Palmetto and the Prostate" by Barton, page 120, "One >> of the benefits of saw palmetto in regards to prostate cancer is that [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Darrell I also varied between 6 and 9 and had three negative biopsies. Three months after my PVP it was 5.1. Derek.
Darrell - 18 Feb 2006 16:17 GMT > Always stop taking Saw Palmetto for about a week before a PSA test as it > markedly lowers it. Also avoid having sex during that week as that also > affects the PSA reading. I've been told to avoid sex for 48 hours before testing, but nothing about stopping SP a week before. Thanks for the input.
Darrell
Derek F - 18 Feb 2006 20:33 GMT >> Always stop taking Saw Palmetto for about a week before a PSA test as it >> markedly lowers it. Also avoid having sex during that week as that also [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Darrell Also avoid passing hard stools as that is as bad as a DRE in terms of irritating the prostate. Derek.
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