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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / October 2003

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Cystoscopy and PVP

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Nicksm20j - 06 Oct 2003 15:40 GMT
The uro I am using says he does not need to scope me prior to the PVP since a
scope is used during the procedure anyway.  I would think it might be a good
idea to ensure that the blockage is really BPH and not something else.  Anyone
have any comments?

Nick
Patrick - 06 Oct 2003 16:26 GMT
Nick,
The pre-PVP tests that are done gives the doctor data as to what to expect
in surgery.

So far on this newsgroup I have seen too extremes.  The one extreme is my
case, where Dr. Te did every test imaginable (Flow, urodynamics, ultrasound,
biopsy, free-PSA, cytoscope, DREs)  prior to PVP in order to get a complete
picture of the situation he was dealing with.

The other extreme was David.  David went to a doctor in Virginia, who had to
cancel PVP surgery after Dave was under anesthia because he didn't do a
pre-surgery ultrasound to find out Dave's prostate was bigger than what he
was comfortable with.

So the bottom line is that pre-op test give the surgeon very important data
as to what he is dealing with in surgery.  Some doctor's just want to get in
there and work from there, others want to know everything there is to know
before surgery.

Patrick

> The uro I am using says he does not need to scope me prior to the PVP since a
> scope is used during the procedure anyway.  I would think it might be a good
> idea to ensure that the blockage is really BPH and not something else.  Anyone
> have any comments?
>
> Nick
David DeBar - 06 Oct 2003 22:55 GMT
Patrick,
Your statement is not quite accurate.  Dr. Nesyo's staff did an ultrasound
on me and knew that my prostate was big at 150 grams.  When he when it he
discovered that it was even bigger then they had thought.  I asked, "why was
this not discovered during the ultrasound?"  Dr. Nseyo replied that there is
a limit to how big a prostate the ultrasound can measure.  Mine exceeded
their capability.  This may be true but I have my doubts.  I think the truth
is that I was bleeding so much that the field of operation was being
obscured by the blood and the operation was going to take too long and was
going to run into the time that was scheduled for other patents.  A more
skilled surgeon like Dr Lin could tell by "the feel" what was going on and
was not hampered by the blinding flow of blood.  Lin told me that less
experienced doctors must look and see what is happening within the prostate
as they proceed.  This constant cutting, stopping the blood flow, and
looking, slows the operation considerably.  While the idea that Dr. Lin was
operating blind and working by feel is a bit un-nerving, I can't argue with
the results.  I can now pee better then Secretariat, the race horse, and
make love better then John Holms, the porn star, because they are dead.  <g>
Seriously, I'm very pleased with the results.  Event the urgency is getting
under control now.  I still have retro, but it is not complete retro.  A few
drops come out but it feels he same way it always did.

Dave
> Nick,
> The pre-PVP tests that are done gives the doctor data as to what to expect
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> >
> > Nick
Lee M. - 06 Oct 2003 23:24 GMT
David, can you tell us your voiding frequency now vs. pre-PVP?  I could live
with the slow flow and once/night trip to the toilet, but voiding every two
hours or less is a real pain (figuratively speaking.)

> Seriously, I'm very pleased with the results.  Event the urgency is getting
> under control now.  I still have retro, but it is not complete retro.  A few
> drops come out but it feels he same way it always did.
David DeBar - 07 Oct 2003 01:30 GMT
Lee,
It has only been a little over two months since I had my PVP.  I typically
get to bed around midnight and get up to pee at 8:00 am.  I don't worry
about drinking water late at night because I know the most I will have to
get up is only once.  This does not happen immediately after the surgery.
If you have BPH it seems like you get into the habit of peeing if you have
even a little pee within you.  It takes a while to get over that habit.
When I first had the PVP the most I could pee at one time was about 150 cc.
Now I can pee 450 cc when I get up in the morning.  I expect that it will
improve even more with passing time.  The improvement that was most dramatic
to me was the wonderful felling of being completely empty after a urination.
Prior to my PVP I always felt like I had some urine in me.  It reached a
point where it was affecting my sex life.  I would need to get up during
sex, take a pee and lose my erection.  That is why I made the half-joking
remark about John Holms.

The other change is how easy it is to pee now!  Prior to PVP I would need to
lean over the toilet and strain to get out a very small stream.  Now I just
walk up to the toilet and let lose with a big, long stream.  What a wonder
sound after all these years!

Dave
> David, can you tell us your voiding frequency now vs. pre-PVP?  I could live
> with the slow flow and once/night trip to the toilet, but voiding every two
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> few
> > drops come out but it feels he same way it always did.
Jack - 07 Oct 2003 04:33 GMT
[snip]
>Dr. Nseyo replied that there is
> a limit to how big a prostate the ultrasound can measure.  Mine exceeded
> their capability.  This may be true but I have my doubts.

Best I can determine when they do a TRUS to measure the prostate size
the machine assumes a certain configuration, more or less oval, to get
a mass determination.  Many enlarged prostates are not oval, so the
machine tends to error on the low side.  They said mine was 65 gm, but
when they did the operation it was estimated at 80 to 85 gms because
so much of the median lobe was up in the bladder.  They said they
didn't know about that.  Had they done a cystoscopy, they probably
would have known the extent of the median lobe in the bladder.

 I think the truth
> is that I was bleeding so much that the field of operation was being
> obscured by the blood and the operation was going to take too long and was
> going to run into the time that was scheduled for other patents.

Doubt that was the case, I was the guy behind you, they had me
scheduled for 09:30 and they didn't roll me into operating room until
12:30.  While I was waiting I figured they were taking forever trying
to do you.  I didn't find out they scrubbed you until the next day.

Jack

> > Nick,
> > The pre-PVP tests that are done gives the doctor data as to what to expect
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> > >
> > > Nick
c palmer - 10 Oct 2003 21:38 GMT
just for general information - when i had the biopsy done.  the
ultra-sound measured it at 29 grams.  i had an RP done and when the
prostate hit the path's table and weighed in.  it was a whopping 55
grams.  seemed to be quite a difference and i still have the photos of
the ultra-sound.  he ran some of them off to show me i had prostate
stones.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
Nicksm20j - 14 Oct 2003 16:27 GMT
What is a PR?

Nick
Nicksm20j - 14 Oct 2003 16:28 GMT
Correction:  What is an RP?

Nick
c palmer - 14 Oct 2003 23:06 GMT
hi nick - it stands for radical prostatectomy - removal of the prostate.
i had the radical retropublic prostatectomy (RRP) which is the prostate
is removed from an incision made under the belly button down.  

i was a member of the BPH club for some time, but the prostate went
cancerous and i had it pulled.  all my worse nightmares where coming
true.  just as you can imagine and don't want to happen.  incontinence,
impotence, complications from the scaring resulting in small bladder and
weak stream - just like when i had BPH before surgery.  

after two more surgeries, and six months later after the RP, i am back
in the swing of things.  i have my continence back, have the erections
back, and can pee like a race horse plus i got most of my bladder size
back.  so there is life after the nightmare and i feel pretty much like
a did before all of this hit the fan.  

here's an interesting note to all of this.  before surgery, i had BPH so
bad, it was pushing up into my bladder forming a ring and causing me to
retain urine.  never empty completely.  when they took the prostate out,
they said i was in trouble big time because some of the BPH growth had
grown out of the prostate and pushed into the bladder to form a flapper
valve over the main outlet which would have caused a complete urine
output shutdown.

so, the bottom line to all of this is:

1. they had underestimated my prostate size -  was almost twice the
size.  

2.  BPH can set you up for bladder infections because of the urine left
behind.

3. the surgeon said i would have been seeing him shortly due to the BPH
causing the urine shutdown.  (i don't know if the prostate would have
been in good condition - would they had left it in place?  maybe someone
can chime in on that)

4. the two uro surgeons i had,  were tops.  my final comment would be
that it is bad enough to have that part of your body being worked on and
if you don't trust your surgeon, then don't have any work done.  

and the surgeons have a sense of humor too.  i told the one that he had
been inside me so many times already, i should be getting candy and
flowers.  he had a good laugh.

the best to everyone and low psa's to all.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
Vern - 15 Oct 2003 09:10 GMT
> 4. the two uro surgeons i had,  were tops.  my final comment would be
> that it is bad enough to have that part of your body being worked on and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional

    Who are the surgeons that you like and where are they located?
Derry Argue - 15 Oct 2003 09:57 GMT
>> 4. the two uro surgeons i had,  were tops.  my final comment would be
>> that it is bad enough to have that part of your body being worked on and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>      Who are the surgeons that you like and where are they located?

Yes, please do name names here. The bad surgeons need exposing and the good
ones need our support and recognition!

Derry
c palmer - 15 Oct 2003 12:31 GMT
ok - introducing the surgeons - (drum roll please)

they are at scott medical  group, scott air force base.

i am retired military and when i found out that i had prostate cancer,
one of the concerns was sexual function.  the va hospital told me that
their job was to get the cancer out, not save nerves.  that answer was
unacceptable.  

col. gary hargrove comes in from scott once every two weeks and sees
patients.  the best way i can explain this, is that he was impressed
with my knowledge of prostate cancer and we could talk shop.  we became
friends.   he's the surgeon who did the biopsy and found the cancer in
both lobes on the prostate.  after he was done with the biopsy, we
talked about the procedure and the results and he said that i had
prostate stones.  he, then, went over to the machine while i was still
on the operating table and ran off 4 different views of my prostate
along with the data that shows how big the prostate is.  that is how i
knew it was 29 grams.   you could see the prostate stones light up nice
and white on the photos.  he took the time to explain the different
positions he had to get the TRUS unit in to 'see' the prostate properly.  

when i got the bad news, i told the surgeon that i wanted nerve sparing.
he said that he could do it, but it would add about an hour to the
surgery.  and he then was able to get my records and i was ok'ed to be
transferred to scott air force hospital to do the surgery.

this guy is first class all the way.  he is the chief of urology
services.  everyone knows how you have to come in the day before
surgery, check into the hospital, do the tests and wait.  not him.  i
was scheduled for surgery tuesday morning.  he had me come in monday
afternoon.  when i showed up, he saw me, shook my hand and took me
straight back to his office.  he did a DRE and still couldn't feel any
nodes.  we talked again about my sexual function again.  he told him
very nicely, but blunt that on a scale of 1 to 10, i would put my
importance of sexual function at a 9.5  

it is at that point that he stopped the conversation and said to me, "i
would like for you to meet my partner in surgery.  we team together and
normally i would be the lead surgeon.  but dr. weld has a better track
record on nerve sparing and if he will do it and you approve, i'll let
him be the lead surgeon and i'll assist."   it's take one hell of a man
to admit the limits of his skills and to let another person take over,
but that is exactly what he did.  dr. weld, did agree to do the nerve
sparing on me.  

after the meeting, the surgeons told me that after i get the blood work
up done, i could check in at the hospital if i wanted to or stay with my
family that night at the motel - just be at the check in desk by 8:15
that morning.  i got to spend the night with my family, check into the
hospital at 8:15 and got suited up in the gown and it was kinda chilly.
but, then it could have be me.  hell, it's scary.  not knowing what the
outcome it going to be.  an airman came by, who was not assigned to me,
but saw that i was cold, asked, if i wanted a blanket.  i said that it
would be nice.  he got me a heated blanket - like when you first take it
out of the dryer - oh, it felt so good.  they took excellent care of me.  

after surgery, did the nerve sparing work???   i had to wear a catheter
for 22 days after surgery - no fun.  but i did have my first erection
with the catheter in place two weeks after surgery and was able to use
that erection one month after surgery.  

i did have complications.  but it wasn't the doctor's fault.  it was my
body.  it made too much scar tissue.  the scaring was closing up the
urethra and i was peeing like i did with BPH.  

again, they first operated and did a dilatation of the stricture.  dr.
hargrove said that usually there is about a 60% chance of that working.
well, i was in the 40% and started stopping up again after a couple
weeks after surgery.  

this time, dr. hargrove, told me that they were going to go to a
cystoscopy and release the scaring and cut out some scaring.  it had
about a 95% chance of success.   he said it was going to be a 20 to 30
min procedure.

again, i was transferred from the va hospital  -  where they could have
done the procedure with the old scope that you have to look down -  to
the scott air force hospital where they have tv monitors using the
scope, the latest equipment and dr. weld and dr. hargrove would both
being during the procedure.  

i went to surgery and was on the operating table at 10am and was in
recovery after 12:15.  dr. hargrove came by to check on me and we told a
couple of jokes to each other.  i ask him, "you said it was only going
to take 20 minutes and i notice it took over 2 hours.  was there a
problem?"

his answer was very unique.  he said, "how long does it take a sniper to
do his job with one bullet?   the rest of the time was set up."

since surgery, i feel like a did before i had BPH, or prostate cancer.
other than the scar on my belly, i don't feel like i've had any surgery.
i feel great, i pee great, and overall things are great.  on the
negative side, it did take me 5 months to become continent.  i still
have a little stress continence now and then. but if that is all i have
left after where i started, it was well worth it.  

to summarize - before surgery, the BPH was so bad, it would take at
least two minutes to empty my bladder,  had no erection problems, had to
pee a lot,  had that left over pee problem - you know, think you're
done.  squeeze, can go some more.  prostate "felt" so big that if i was
in bed and was on my side, i was ok, but when i rolled over on my back,
i could "feel" the prostate pushing on my bladder.  roll over and the
feeling would go away.
not to count how many times you have to get up to go to the bathroom.

after surgery now - can empty bladder in less than 25 seconds, when i'm
empty, i'm empty.  can't get another drop out.  can lay on back and not
feel bladder being pressed on.  erections had help with viagra to start
with, but am getting natural erections which is early for the RP, but is
suppose to get a lot better.   and no BPH and no prostate cancer.  

because these surgeons are in the air force, i don't know how easy it
will be to get access to them.  i can honestly say that both times i
have been in that hospital i got the best care one can imagine.  i did
found out later that do about two retirees a month over there.  

i hope this answer your questions.  please feel free to ask away.  

BPH is not a fun thing and it would have been nice to keep the ole
prostate around but when it turned bad, it's time to pull the plug on
it, but it doesn't mean that it is the end of the world as far as sexual
function is concerned.   far from it.

i wish everyone the best.  with the new procedures out there to treat
the BPH, it's really great, but keep an eye on the psa readings.  the
key to survival is getting the prostate out before the cancer has a
chance to spread.  and you can still keep your health and not lose
anything.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
Derry Argue - 15 Oct 2003 18:58 GMT
PALMER_ENT@webtv.net (c palmer) wrote in news:1198-3F8D3000-9@storefull-
2136.public.lawson.webtv.net:

> Subject: Re: Your statement is not quite accurate
> From: PALMER_ENT@webtv.net (c palmer)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> they are at scott medical  group, scott air force base.

(Snip)

A great post, Curtis, and everyone here wishes you well for a continued
recovery.

Derry
c palmer - 15 Oct 2003 22:52 GMT
thanks derry - everyone was wanting to know who the good doctors are and
the bad doctors to avoid.  

this is unrelated - but is it?

i went to the va hospital on a follow up on my skin cancer treatment.
every time the doctor first sees you - he will walk straight up to you -
shake your hand - and say, "how may i help you today?"  

isn't that a great way to feel welcomed in a less than pleasant
situation.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
Derry Argue - 16 Oct 2003 08:46 GMT
PALMER_ENT@webtv.net (c palmer) wrote in news:5079-3F8DC189-92@storefull-
2138.public.lawson.webtv.net:

> thanks derry - everyone was wanting to know who the good doctors are and
> the bad doctors to avoid.  
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional

And just good psychology to put the patient at ease. What particularly
angers me are the doctors/uros here in the UK who refuse to refer patients
because of their own prejudices (i.e. prejudice = judging the situation
before being in possession of all the facts).

These appear to be so arrogant that their minds are closed to the
possibilties of newer or better technology. In effect, they put their pride
before their patient's well being. That goes to one of the foundations of
the medical profession -- but perhaps there is another reason we don't know
and they won't explain. That seems to have brought me full circle!

Derry
Tom - 16 Oct 2003 14:05 GMT
> And just good psychology to put the patient at ease. What particularly
> angers me are the doctors/uros here in the UK who refuse to refer patients
> because of their own prejudices (i.e. prejudice = judging the situation
> before being in possession of all the facts).

AKA "Contempt prior to investigation" - and thier minds are closed to
investigation!

Tom

> These appear to be so arrogant that their minds are closed to the
> possibilties of newer or better technology. In effect, they put their pride
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Derry
Lee M. - 14 Oct 2003 23:11 GMT
Radical prostatectomy, i.e., removal.

> Correction:  What is an RP?
>
> Nick
Jim W. - 06 Oct 2003 23:30 GMT
Had my first appointment with Dr. Te this afternoon.  He wants urodynamic ,
cystoscopy, and ultrasound tests before he commits to PVP.  I gotta think
that's
prudent although I don't look forward to repeating these tests I had 3 years
ago prior to my ILC procedure.  Dr. Te says my case is considered a
"procedure failure" which is why  retesting is necessary.  Jim W.

> Nick,
> The pre-PVP tests that are done gives the doctor data as to what to expect
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> >
> > Nick
David DeBar - 06 Oct 2003 17:34 GMT
They use the fiber optic bundle that is pushed into you to take a peek prior
to firing the laser.  I see no advantage to undergoing a separate scoping.
I'm sure if your surgeon sees something indicating that a PVP is not the
correct thing to do he will not proceed with the operation and tell you what
he found.
That happened to me.  The doc took a look and determined that it was too big
for someone of his skills to operate on.  He stopped the operation and I
went home.  Latter, I found another surgeon that could handle it, and did.
It seems that skilled surgeons can tell more from a digital examination then
they can from CAT-Scans or ultra sounds.

Good luck with your operation.

Dave

> The uro I am using says he does not need to scope me prior to the PVP since a
> scope is used during the procedure anyway.  I would think it might be a good
> idea to ensure that the blockage is really BPH and not something else.  Anyone
> have any comments?
>
> Nick
bnd777 - 06 Oct 2003 18:16 GMT
> The uro I am using says he does not need to scope me prior to the PVP since a
> scope is used during the procedure anyway.  I would think it might be a good
> idea to ensure that the blockage is really BPH and not something else.  Anyone
> have any comments?
>
> Nick

Give your uro some credit
Surely he has done an ultrasound to establish the problem
Congrats on choosing a PVP doctor
Nicksm20j - 10 Oct 2003 00:38 GMT
My uro did do a flow check and the other day a biopsy since my last psa was
4.7.  Along with the biopsy comes an ultrasound.  He says my prostate is 27g.
Since it is small by comparison he thinks the blockage is at the bladder neck.
Bad news since that is the area that should be avoided to prevent retro.  Oh
well.  I guess I'd rather pee than ejaculate.

Nick
bnd777 - 12 Oct 2003 17:29 GMT
> My uro did do a flow check and the other day a biopsy since my last psa was
> 4.7.  Along with the biopsy comes an ultrasound.  He says my prostate is 27g.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Nick

May well be that its median lobe enlargement blocking bladder neck
PVP only destroys red blood cells which exist in prostate tissue
They do not exist in the muscle at base of the bladder which is why PVP is a
better bet than TURP in avoiding incontinance risk
 
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