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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / February 2006My Flomax vs Uroxatral experience
I've been on a regimen of Flomax and Ditropan XL for some years. The Ditropan XL to relax bladder and the Flomax to reduce bladder neck restriction. On the Flomax I definitely had an improved stream but still had sense of restriction. My physician suggested I try Uroxatral. The sense I got was that Uroxatral is really an 18 hour pill. I take it after breakfast and typically notice an improved stream a few hours later, and this lasts most of the same day. When I get up the next day or during the night the flow is significantly restricted. As long as I took the Flomax daily, I had no sense of peaks. FWIW: I took the Flomax 30 minutes after breakfast, but I take the Uroxatral immediately after eating. Just sending this in case it's of help to others Terry Dunno about the stream, but the bladder capacity is small whatever I take. (130ml). Flomax helps forget the pain on social occasions when taken with panadeine (acetomenophen) I have also had some significant long term help with antihistamines as well. A small dose 2x daily. Having had 2 diagnosed auto-immune diseases (rheumatoid arthritis and lupus) I am considering a return to gold - it really helped my RA those many years ago and it is simple to do. (for me any way!). Maybe it would also have some beneficial effect on interstial cystitis? Thanx for the input. Murray > I've been on a regimen of Flomax and Ditropan XL for some years. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Terry You are the first person I have heard of to benefit from an antihistamine, it is usually a No No for BPH sufferers causing retention. Derek. > Dunno about the stream, but the bladder capacity is > small whatever I take. (130ml). Flomax helps forget the pain [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> >> Terry > You are the first person I have heard of to benefit from an > antihistamine, it is usually a No No for BPH sufferers causing > retention. Interesting :-) > Derek. >> Dunno about the stream, but the bladder capacity is [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >>> >>> Terry >>You are the first person I have heard of to benefit from an >>antihistamine, it is usually a No No for BPH sufferers causing >>retention. > > Interesting :-) Ditto to Derek's post. A strong version of Sudafed was prescribed by the Doc in the morning. Got it at the pharmacy at noon. The next morning at 5 a.m. I as in an Urgent Care being catheterized. Although I'd noticed some bph symptoms for a couple of years, those pills did the number on my Urinary tract. Since then, I've had some nasal sprays trigger the same problem. (seemed strange that something one would inhale could hit the prostate--and fast too). ... LMac >>Derek. >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >>>> >>>>Terry >>> You are the first person I have heard of to benefit from an >>> antihistamine, it is usually a No No for BPH sufferers causing [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > sprays trigger the same problem. (seemed strange that something one > would inhale could hit the prostate--and fast too). ... LMac LMac...You need to understand the difference between decongestants and antihistamines (even though both are supposed to be bad for BPH, but by different mechanisms). I believe your sudafed and nasal sprays are probably decongestants, although the sudafed could have an antihistamine combined in with it (as in standard "cold type") pills, but I doubt the nasal spray does [ie it would be decongestant (OTC) or corticosteroid or antihistamine (both by prescription)]. Let me know. I'm curious. I always caution people about reading things in newsgroups and on the internet regarding accuracy of statements. I believe you may have been incorrect in your post. Just trying to help...Pete >>> Derek. >>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >>>>> >>>>> Terry The rationale behind trying it was from some reading I did abt. the leaky bladder lining which allowed urine into the interstial space thus causing mast cells to rupture and release histamine as part of the inflammatory response. If I had known not to take antihistamines I wouldn't have tried the experiment! :-) But of course we aren't talking BPH here, are we? I only eat 2x a day so I have a small dose before every meal - if I remember. Murray >>You are the first person I have heard of to benefit from an >>antihistamine, it is usually a No No for BPH sufferers causing [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > ote in message >> You are the first person I have heard of to benefit from an >> antihistamine, it is usually a No No for BPH sufferers causing >> retention. > > Interesting :-) As are decongestants. Derek. >> Derek. >>> Dunno about the stream, but the bladder capacity is [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >>>> >>>> Terry >>> You are the first person I have heard of to benefit from an >>> antihistamine, it is usually a No No for BPH sufferers causing [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > As are decongestants. > Derek. I think you took me wrong Derek. I meant it was interesting that the antihistamines had an inverse effect on him (ie they helped him). Did you read my response to LMac...Pete >>> Derek. >>>> Dunno about the stream, but the bladder capacity is [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >>>>> >>>>> Terry >>>> You are the first person I have heard of to benefit from an >>>> antihistamine, it is usually a No No for BPH sufferers causing [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > antihistamines had an inverse effect on him (ie they helped him). Did you > read my response to LMac...Pete Yes but only after I had posted my reply :-) Derek. >>>> Derek. >>>>> Dunno about the stream, but the bladder capacity is [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >>>>>> >>>>>> Terry > You are the first person I have heard of to benefit from an > antihistamine, it is usually a No No for BPH sufferers causing retention. > Derek. Hi Derek. I've been taking antihistamines for allergies (another autoimmune disease) for many years. My urologist put me on atarax for my IC about a year ago, and over time it has made a big difference with the pain. Unfortunately, I am currently unemployed (which means I currently don't have insurance), and my doctor is now telling me that I have to come in to see him before he will refill my prescription. So I'm currently not taking the atarax, and am having some pain again. I don't hink it is for everyone, though. Some tolerate it better than others. Since I've taken antihistamines for many years, the atarax doesn't make me too drowsy. Others report that it knocks them out. Of course, I take it right before I go to bed anyway. George<IC sufferer for ten years> >> Dunno about the stream, but the bladder capacity is >> small whatever I take. (130ml). Flomax helps forget the pain [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >>> >>> Terry Today George commented courteously on the subject at hand > Hi Derek. I've been taking antihistamines for allergies > (another autoimmune disease) for many years. My urologist [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > them out. Of course, I take it right before I go to bed > anyway. I need to ask my doctor about Atarax when I see him in a couple weeks. I've been enduring DMSO treatments again, which are quite painful to me. Worse, my doc wants me to hold the stuff in my bladder for a minimum of 30 minutes, even though clinical studies show that no more than 12-15 minutes are necessary. He really wants 45 minutes, but I can't take the pain. I stopped taking Elavil and Elmiron as they had no noticeable affect and were worsening my constipation problems. I had another failed attempt at IC relief via hydrodistension last fall, and my doc wants to scope me to see what happened. Well, I already know it failed. People keep careful diaries of what they're doing or what they're eating which makes their IC get worse or better. I do mine mentally (got a good memory! <grin>). I've not noticed triggering more pain if I do it or less if I don't, /except/ for my IBS with constipation. Anatomically, large and small intestines are on top the bladder, particularly the sigmoid color on rectum. It took quite a while to make the connection, but on the uphill side of weeking constipation/loose stool cycles I get IC pain, and when it "lets loose", I get pain. Now, I'd /really/ like to fix my bowel problems, which have grown worse in the last 4-6 years, and noticeably worse in the last year. Besides extreme discomfort, hemmoroid bleeding, and the IC, I also get uncontrollably nauseus which often makes it impossible to eat. I never vomit, but feel like you do just before you hurl. There's a known link between IBS and IC but neither the gasto or uro guys know exactly what it is. I'm been putting off going to the University of Michigan Medical Center for an IBS/nausea consult, but somehow I have to get the intestinal fortitude to do it, along with the obligatory obnoxious testing. We all know our own bodies far better than any doctor does, so I'm convinced that if I can fix the IBS, I'll also fix my IC. And, I'll stop the weight loss slide I'm on, where I've lost over 20 pounds in the last year. And, I was already skinny!  SignatureATM, aka Jerry Jerry...I see you and George have finally wandered in here (both at the same time - interesting). I didn't think you IC sufferers cared too much about BPH or prostatis :-) . Welcome...Pete > Today George commented courteously on the subject at hand > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > And, I'll stop the weight loss slide I'm on, where I've lost > over 20 pounds in the last year. And, I was already skinny! Today Pete commented courteously on the subject at hand > Jerry...I see you and George have finally wandered in here > (both at the same time - interesting). I didn't think you > IC sufferers cared too much about BPH or prostatis :-) . > Welcome...Pete Actually, I do, Pete. And, you and I talked some last year. My journey into urology actually was BPH. In December, 2002, one night I just couldn't pee. Right out of the blue. Went to the ER, got a Foley put in, which hurt like hell, and started down 5 months of hell from my first urologist. He refused to give me a high enough dose of Hytrin to shrink my prostate and had me self-catheterizing 8+ times a day. I fired his a.s and hired the head of urology for our local hospital, still my doc today. He tried TUMT and TUNA after the Hytrin 10mg stopped working, but both failed. So, a year ago, I underwent holmium laser therapy, which is a wnd or 3rd generation laser beam version of good old TURP. the nurse anthetist didn't give me enough Propofol to put me out, and the damn doctor didn't wait to know I was under before he started. Gawd! Never felt pain like that! About the time the prostate swelling should've gone down, maybe 3 months later, I had more trouble peeing, only I couldn't get my straight cath in past the sphincter reliably. That got "traced" to IC, which can confuse the sphincter. Seems that in some people - lucky me! - the sphincter "knows" not to leak, which is a side-effect of any surgical or prostate reduction, so it clamps down. Getting a cath through is almost impossible, hurts like hell, and damages the tissue. I've been pretty much on a Foley ever since. After I got the blinking doctor to prescribe Detropan 5mg twice a day while I've got a cath in, it is quite comfortable. Far better than self-cathing or spending hours in an ER in pain, then get a $1,000 bill because my insurance thinks it's not a life- threatening condition. I'm seeing him in 10 days for a follow-up cystoscopy. I have no clue what /he/ will see, but /I/ know my IC is still there. Besides the flare-ups I described related to my constipation and aftermath loose stool events, I can also feel considerable pain if anything causes the Foley not to drain. I'm an engineer and know that a Foley works primarily on gravity, but depends on capillary action the rest of the time. That's why you can have the leg back almost as high as the end of your dick and it'll still drain. But, if I put my feet up on the coffee table or lay at just the right angle on my side while sleeping, gravity can't work and cap isn't enough. Hence the bladder fills, and the pain starts at around 100-150ml, sometimes a little higher. To comment just a bit further on my experience with BPH, my other prescription drugs, such as Norco, Xanax, Ambien, and some others have the same nasty side effect as all anti- histamines - they cause or aggravate retention. I like my doc, but he's got two main things he does that annoy me: he play it close-to-the-vest with his long-term planning so I don't know what he's thinking, and he won't let me get a consult from another doctor in my area who is nationally known as an IC expert. The former is because hhe allegedly doesn't want to scare me, but I'd rather know than not know. The latter is because of what he calls "professional jealousy" - in other words, they don't like each other. Still, he can't stop me from getting a consult from the guy he hates, but he can - and would - fire me as a patient if I go without his blessing. And, I can't do it on the QT because he'd see any hospital test results show up on his screen since both docs are piped into the hospital computer system. These are the 2 very best urologists I can find without traveling great distances. I can't get to the new guy without pissing off the older dude. Gad! As the country song says "that's my story and I'm sticking to it!" SignatureATM, aka Jerry Jerry...I remember all our long posts (I have saved some of them for my data base). You didn't have to write so much for me, but maybe the others can glean from it. Are you going to be in here every so often or is this just a quick stop by. I see the IC group is totally dead now. I was surprised you or George didn't respond to my last post in there about the cyclosporine. I see the same messages duplicated in there from Jim W. (I don't agree with cross posting - way too much redundancy for people who may not be interested - I copy/paste and send individually - oh well). Take care...Pete > Jerry...I remember all our long posts (I have saved some of them for my > data base). You didn't have to write so much for me, but maybe the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > who may not be interested - I copy/paste and send individually - oh > well). Take care...Pete I didn't respond to it pthwer than to the one post I made because I have no experience with that drug and didn't think there was anything that I could contribute. I do agree that anyone who takes it needs to be aware of the potential for immunosuppression, and take adequate precautions. It is definitely a serious drug, one that needs the supervision of a competent healthcare professional. Having said that, I re-iterate what I said about that research, and that is that it reinforces my conviction that this disease is an autoimmune disease, and also explains why antihistamines apparently help some of us. George Today Pete commented courteously on the subject at hand > Jerry...I remember all our long posts (I have saved some of > them for my data base). You didn't have to write so much > for me, but maybe the others can glean from it. Pete, I'm naturally wordy. <grin> Also, it helps me to vent. That's not a. <g> A further <non-grin>, a reader can snip parts of a long post not of interest to them or simply skip over the boring parts, but they cannon insert info where none exists. So, on car picture NGs, PC support NGs, Paint Shop Pro, etc., I tend to say more than is asked for and let people just ignore what doesn't interest them. The only downside for me is a little more typing and maybe some folks plonking me for being a babbling brook. > Are you going to be in here every so often or is this just > a quick stop by. I see the IC group is totally dead now. > I was surprised you or George didn't respond to my last > post in there about the cyclosporine. I saw it but didn't have any experience to offer and no questions. > I see the same > messages duplicated in there from Jim W. (I don't agree > with cross posting - way too much redundancy for people > who may not be interested - I copy/paste and send > individually - oh well). Pete, I subscribe to this NG in Xnews. Whenever I start a session, I update all the subscription headers, so I immediately see if someone has posted here or not. It's a pretty sparse group and always has been. I think it was 6 months before George answered my original message. I've not said much of late because there just isn't any news for me to report, other than "no news /is/ bad news" for me. I jumped into this thread primarily to help any fellow IC sufferers that might also be BPH sufferers, as you observed. I wanted them to know a little about other common drugs that affect retention as well as comment on my negative experiences. In college, I was educated as an engineer and so needed to learn probability and statistics. When it comes to both IBS and IC, I'm always somehow on the wrong end of a probability distribution for the effficacy of a treatment. You know "xxx is known to help from 20-35% of patients". Well, I'm always in the "65-80%" range. My bad luck, I guess. SignatureATM, aka Jerry >My journey into urology actually was BPH. In December, 2002, >one night I just couldn't pee. Right out of the blue. Went to >the ER, got a Foley put in, which hurt like hell, and started This kind of thing scares me, especially having been to the emergency room for a kidney stone and having to wait hours. And I actually think I got off easy on the kidney stone - it wasn't that large and the pain not as bad as others have described. I'm 54, and I've been diagnosed with BPH, and my doctor has described my prostate as "large" and "hard" and "with a lump". PSA 0.8, negative prostate biopsy, so I don't think I have to worry about cancer just yet. I have some symptoms of going to the bathroom in the middle of the night and start/stop flow, but I'm taking no medications for it nor do I think I need any - yet. But I could easily see that I might need some of the medications discussed here in 5 years and having a PVP in 10. Question: would it make sense for me to learn how to self-cath, NOW, get a few catheters, and try it out a couple of times? I'm not trying to avoid doctors, but if "right out of the blue" some morning, I can't pee, I think it would be much easier on me to self-cath, THEN try to make an emergency appointment with my uro or go to the emergency room (empty), than head for the emergency room already very full and have to wait a few hours. That's IF I managed to make it trying to drive under the influence of a lot of pain. Then I'd tell the doctor just what I did and if he wants to yell at me, fine, it was worth it. I know I need to be careful about infections. I might not need to self-cath for 20 years, and it doesn't sound very pleasant, but knowing how seems like cheap insurance. I suppose how much self-cathing hurts depends on the situation. Just testing might not hurt much at all, except due to my own clumsiness. Clogged up when I really need it might be much worse. If I suddenly "out of the blue" can't pee (as distinguished from a different situation, like post-operative problems), and I self-cath, is that likely to "ream out" the channel or will I likely have to keep doing it every 6 hours or so until I get help from a more permanent catheter, medication or surgery? I don't know how quick I could get an emergency appointment with my uro. I'm alone. This by itself causes problems I don't always forsee, and doctors usually don't see any problem either, even when it's pointed out to them. For instance, I knew I'd need help getting home after a colonoscopy due to the anaesthesia (actually, the described effect of the drug was more like a date-rape drug - you forget the pain rather than not feel it). That part worked OK, after a difficult time finding someone to help. She put me in bed, then left, like I asked. I didn't expect to end up home alone lying in my own mess after 3 days, unable to sit up without passing out, unable to phone anyone, getting VERY thirsty, not real sure I'd left the hospital yet and not real sure I was still alive, and unable to indicate a problem to a person standing next to me if there had been one. I got out of that one on my own, barely, but next time I might not be so lucky and wind up dead of dehydration a week later. Russian roulette would have been safer, but the whole time I was blissfully unaware of any problems, except thirst. No pain, either. I don't know how I'd recover (alone) from a PVP, TURP, or similar procedure. Maybe they should throw me into the coma ward until I'm strong enough to demand to be let out. It might be cheaper than 24x7 babysitters making sure I am still breathing and trying to force me to take water and food while still asleep. Anaesthesia knocks me out pretty hard and even if I'm awake I end up with the awareness of at best a retarded 5-year-old for a while. Gordon L. Burditt I would go slowly abut self cath. because it is a very easy way to introduce bacteria into the bladder and cause one hell of an infection. Believe me, it isn't something you want to do without medical supervision of some sort.. >>My journey into urology actually was BPH. In December, 2002, >>one night I just couldn't pee. Right out of the blue. Went to [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > > Gordon L. Burditt > I don't know how I'd recover (alone) from a PVP, TURP, or similar > procedure. Maybe they should throw me into the coma ward until I'm [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Gordon L. Burditt Gordon...I read your post with interest. You obviously have an allergic type reaction of some sort to anesthesia. I too know what its like to live alone, and do not have anyone to help me (I am screwed), except for one person and its like pulling teeth, even though I pay her - second wife's daughter :-) . May I ask how old you are...Pete. >> I don't know how I'd recover (alone) from a PVP, TURP, or similar >> procedure. Maybe they should throw me into the coma ward until I'm [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >person and its like pulling teeth, even though I pay her - second wife's >daughter :-) . May I ask how old you are...Pete. My original post said I was 54. I had reasonable luck finding help calling a normal babysitting service. I had thought about taxis, but that wouldn't get me inside, and the nurses specifically recommended against them - guess they had been cheating patients who were rather out of it. I think I freaked out some of the services who thought I was some kind of pervert, asking for someone to "babysit" *me*, a 54-year-old man. None of them actually called me a pervert but their voices were a bit strange, and some never called back. Some of them also cater to seniors but want ongoing customers who are going to need help several times a week. I tried to be up front about what I wanted: take me to the hospital, wait a couple of hours, bring me home even though I would be sorta half-conscious and wobbly, and put me in bed, then leave me there. For $50 it was a bargain. I'm not real sure how she did that. She didn't drag me (would have left marks) and she wasn't big enough to lift me. I guess I could walk enough for her to lead me around. I do know I wasn't real sure where I was even 3 days later. It's also an interesting question as to how I got back into street clothes. I probably could have also asked her to come back and help me with meals for the next couple of days, but that doesn't help much if I'm out cold. At the time I didn't think there would be a problem after I got home. I had food and water within supposedly easy reach, which I couldn't get to for the first 3 1/2 days. My head was about 2 feet away from a phone, which I didn't have the coordination to dial. And I can't call for help if I don't even realize I need it. The doctor said I would be back to normal activities THAT EVENING (and I'd probably be dead if I had believed that). A survey of people I know who had colonoscopies gave minimum time to recover at 1 1/2 days (1 person), and most said 2 to 2 1/2 days. My own estimate, based on prior experience with valium and dental surgery, was that I'd be pretty much useless for 3 days. That proved to be a bit low. I probably was over the anaesthetic after about 2 - 2 1/2 days. At that point I was in the catch-22 of not being able to get up to get water due to dehydration (and I wasn't allowed to drink anything in the 12 hours before the surgery, so I was thirsty going into it). Dehydration and the associated mental confusion only gets worse if all I can do is lie there, and I was past the point of no return: no way I could get up to get water from the bathroom or kitchen. If I'd spilled all of the bedside pitcher of water instead of half of it trying to get to it, I might have lasted another week but still be lying there (my house is paid for so nobody would be trying to evict me and discover the body). If I had to do it over again (and they want me to have another colonoscopy in 4 years, and who knows what my uro will come up with), some of my requests would freak out most anyone. The amount of force needed to wake me up from a very deep sleep and make me take food and water would probably be considered abusive if applied to children or seniors. If it kept me alive, I wouldn't object to using an electric cattle prod to wake me up, but I doubt I could convince them of that. And forcing (liquid) food down the throat of an unconscious patient is probably risky. Gordon L. Burditt You need to talk to the anesthetiologist, not the uro or other doctor. Next procedure, request an advance consultation with him/her. Also find out what was used on you so as to try something different next time. >>>I don't know how I'd recover (alone) from a PVP, TURP, or similar >>>procedure. Maybe they should throw me into the coma ward until I'm [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > > Gordon L. Burditt > You need to talk to the anesthetiologist, not the uro or other doctor. > Next procedure, request an advance consultation with him/her. Also > find out what was used on you so as to try something different next > time. Gordon...Al is right - do what he suggests. Your reactions to anesthesia are highly abnormal. I have had many procedures (EGD's and colonoscopies) with "propofil" (it seems to be the latest and greatest for sometime now - at least in Maryland). It is awsome, quick acting, quick recovery, and no big hangover. I could easily drive myself home but the laws don't allow that (and I understand). And they will not allow taxi's either (which I don't agree with), and really pisses me off, and it is a real problem for me to get the one person to take me. My heart is with you. Sorry I missed that you said you were 54 in your OP. I'm usually more careful than that, but it was a rather long post :-[ ...Pete >>>> I don't know how I'd recover (alone) from a PVP, TURP, or similar >>>> procedure. Maybe they should throw me into the coma ward until I'm [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] >> >> Gordon L. Burditt >> You need to talk to the anesthetiologist, not the uro or other doctor. >> Next procedure, request an advance consultation with him/her. Also [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >at least in Maryland). It is awsome, quick acting, quick recovery, and no >big hangover. Is propofil described as "making you forget the pain rather than not feel it in the first place"? If not, I probably had something different. What I had was well documented to mess with memory, according to the doctor, and it sure did. Actually, I'm not sure you can call a drug that works as he described as an "anesthetic" at all, any more than hypnosis AFTER the procedure to make me forget it would be. I also have to wonder if I was screaming my lungs out during the colonoscopy. I don't remember any pain, but who knows what I forgot. Are my reactions to anesthesia abnormal in terms of duration? I think I would have recovered in about 2 days if someone had been around to make me take water, and my informal poll of recovery time after a colonoscopy of a dozen people ranged from 1 1/2 days to 4 days, with most in the 2 - 2 1/2 day range. The doctor's claim of 1/2 a day seems to be the odd one out. I suspect I might have had the same problem with dehydration if they'd just strapped me to the bed instead of anesthesia (and forget doing the colonoscopy). After 3 1/2 days unstrapping me (but still leaving me alone) might not help. Gordon L. Burditt >>> You need to talk to the anesthetiologist, not the uro or other >>> doctor. Next procedure, request an advance consultation with [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Is propofil described as "making you forget the pain rather than > not feel it in the first place"? Gordon...this question is a little too profound for me, and I am not an anesthesiologist. All I can say is that you can read about propofil (Diprivan) by googling (also check "Versed" if you want). I believe if you are unconscious you will not feel pain for minor investigative procedures (including polyp removal etc). For real surgery (with cutting) you will most likely have a breathing tube, or mask, with gas pumped into your lungs, as well as an intravenous with something like propofil. I am not an anesthesiologist (but I have talked to many before all my procedures and surgeries). They are required to be on duty and talk to you (ie the supervising MD), even though an anesthetist is all that is required to administer the drug during simple procedures, like EGD's and colonoscopies. I don't want to be redundant, so I have pasted below (between the dashed lines) something I wrote in another thread a couple weeks ago, for your info (I think its interesting - ie about the conscious sedation). How conscious you are is obviously a function of how much of the drug they inject. As far as I can tell by my personal experience, they now put you sleep with propofil for EGD's and colonoscopies, at least in the county where I live in Maryland. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wrote the two paragraphs below on 2/3/06 - They used to do a thing called conscious sedation (my current gastro - old timer - still does) and he injects "Versed" into my IV and that knocks me out completely (you sure aren't conscious) and has a bigger hangover than the propofil (plus he gives his patients 100 mg of Demerol to relax them before the procedure even though he is going to knock you out with the Versed - lol . He says the anesthesiologist is overkill and an added expense (and another bill - I agree). Only the old time doctor's would be interested in saving the patient money. I used to have procedures in the 90's where you were semi conscious (EGD's, colonoscopies) and no anesthesiologists or anesthetists were required (doc did injection - don't know what they used back then). But they have all gone to the propofil today and you go to sleep (at least in Maryland). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete >> Is propofil described as "making you forget the pain rather than >> not feel it in the first place"? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >are unconscious you will not feel pain for minor investigative procedures >(including polyp removal etc). The description I got of the procedure said I would be conscious (sort of) and following instructions (like shifting position) but I probably wouldn't remember any of it afterwards. As I mentioned earlier, it sounds much more like a date-rape drug (makes me cooperative, messes up memory) than something intended to knock me out or reduce pain. I did get put pretty deeply out but I'm not sure that happened until after I got home - it did do a good job of messing up my memory. In the precarious position they had me, lying on one side balanced on one arm and cutting off circulation, I sure wouldn't stay put very long unconscious. I didn't see any obvious way they could tie me into that position, either. The vague memory I have of being told "you're done" and someone starting to wheel my bed out of the room says I was still in the same position until I got pushed over (either by the motion of the bed or by someone putting me flat on my back) at that time. >I don't want to be redundant, so I have pasted below (between the dashed >lines) something I wrote in another thread a couple weeks ago, for your info [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >expense (and another bill - I agree). Only the old time doctor's would be >interested in saving the patient money. I got separate bills for the doctor, the facility, and the lab (if they found any polyps to take samples of, which they did). There was no separate bill from the anesthesiologist, although that might have been in the facility or doctor charges. >I used to have procedures in the 90's where you were semi conscious (EGD's, >colonoscopies) and no anesthesiologists or anesthetists were required (doc >did injection - >don't know what they used back then). I don't think anyone mentioned an anesthesiologist to me at any point. That doesn't mean there wasn't one, under some other name like "technician", or that I just didn't ask the right questions. They set me up with an IV when they were getting me ready. I wasn't supposed to start getting sleepy until later, when presumably they put something in the IV. I might have had a sedative from the beginning. >But they have all gone to the >propofil today and you go to sleep (at least in Maryland). >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gordon L. Burditt >>> Is propofil described as "making you forget the pain rather than >>> not feel it in the first place"? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > sure that happened until after I got home - it did do a good job > of messing up my memory. Gordon...I'm sure you had the so called "conscious sedation" since you indicate below you didn't talk to an anesthesiologist, and did not get a bill from an anesthesiologist. Your doc may have injected the "Versed" I mentioned below (powerful stuff). If you stayed conscious they must have not used too much, although you have severe reactions afterward like you said. Call the doc's office and ask them what the name of the anesthesia was they used. > In the precarious position they had me, lying on one side balanced > on one arm and cutting off circulation, I sure wouldn't stay put [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > no separate bill from the anesthesiologist, although that might > have been in the facility or doctor charges. Like I said above you probably did not have an anesthesiologist or you would have talked to him (ie the MD on duty), even though an anesthetist probably would have administered the drug. Its a silly game, the doc doing the procedure can administer whatever drug they use for the so called "conscious sedation", but an anestheologist is required to be on duty if you are to receive propofil (even though an anesthetist would probably administer it), and you are to become unconscious. Like I said when my gastro gives me the dose of versed for my EGD's, it knocks me out worse than the propofil (so he must be injecting a significant amount), and he calls it "conscious sedation". But with either propofil or versed, I do not have the recovery problems you do, which sound very serious. >> I used to have procedures in the 90's where you were semi conscious >> (EGD's, colonoscopies) and no anesthesiologists or anesthetists were [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > point. That doesn't mean there wasn't one, under some other name > like "technician", or that I just didn't ask the right questions. Like I said, if you had an anesthesiologist you would have spoken to him and you would have gotten a bill from him. Was this your first procedure like this (with all the recovery problems you described). > They set me up with an IV when they were getting me ready. I wasn't > supposed to start getting sleepy until later, when presumably they [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Gordon L. Burditt >Like I said above you probably did not have an anesthesiologist or you would >have talked to him (ie the MD on duty), even though an anesthetist probably [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >you would have gotten a bill from him. Was this your first procedure like >this (with all the recovery problems you described). I'm 54 now. At 53 I had the colonoscopy with problems we've discussed. At 52 I had a kidney stone. No anesthesia involved, I think I got off easy on the pain (compared to what others describe, and even compared to my own root canals), drove home the same day. At 36 I had gum surgery which involved IV valium during the procedure. Recovery took about 4 days (pain not gone though, and I was desperately trying NOT to be conscious a lot of the time, but I could go back to work) and I fell over at work the next week. In my 30's I had various dental procedures like root canals with only local anesthesia. No problems but pain. Sometime in elementary school I had my tonsils out. I have no idea whether there were problems with this. Pain was the biggest issue. So local anesthesia seems to be OK, but the only two instances of putting me to sleep that I can remember the results of caused problems. Gordon L. Burditt > I'm 54 now. > At 53 I had the colonoscopy with problems we've discussed. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Gordon L. Burditt Gordon...Aside from your two recovery problems with anesthesia, you sound like you are a lot healthier than I am :-) . Good for you. Ask your doctor what he gave you for the colonoscopy and discuss this with the anesthesioligist (like Al said) the next time you have a procedure requiring anesthesia. If it going to be "conscious sedation", and you will not have an anesthesiologist, then discuss it with your doc who will be injecting you (but chances are he is only used to using what he uses, and will not use anything else). Good luck...Pete > Jerry...I see you and George have finally wandered in here (both at the > same time - interesting). I didn't think you IC sufferers cared too much > about BPH or prostatis :-) . Welcome...Pete Hi Pete. I had prostatitis in 2004. Took quite a while to get it under control, but I feel better now. Like I said below, the atarax has helped my IC, but my prescription ran out, and I don't have insurance, so I can't afford a doctor visit right now. Since I've gone off the atarax, I've noticed an increase in bladder pain and burning in my urethra when I urinate. It mostly went away when I was on the atarax. Hopefully, I will able to find work soon, and get back to the doctor. George >> Today George commented courteously on the subject at hand >> [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] >> And, I'll stop the weight loss slide I'm on, where I've lost >> over 20 pounds in the last year. And, I was already skinny! >> Jerry...I see you and George have finally wandered in here (both at >> the same time - interesting). I didn't think you IC sufferers cared [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > on the atarax. Hopefully, I will able to find work soon, and get back > to the doctor. My best wishes to you George...Pete > George > [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >>> And, I'll stop the weight loss slide I'm on, where I've lost >>> over 20 pounds in the last year. And, I was already skinny! >>> Jerry...I see you and George have finally wandered in here (both at >>> the same time - interesting). I didn't think you IC sufferers cared [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >> George Thanks. I appreciate that. George Today George commented courteously on the subject at hand >> Jerry...I see you and George have finally wandered in here >> (both at the same time - interesting). I didn't think you [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the atarax. Hopefully, I will able to find work soon, and > get back to the doctor. George, you've been suffering with this much longer than I. I certainly pray that you'll get relief sometime soon. And, I hope you are able to go back to work. That'll help you stay busy and maybe take your mind off your symptoms, as well as ease you budget-based anxiety and get to a doctor again. My health inexplicably got much worse about the time I retired from Chrysler 4 years ago, and it is going downhill at an accelerated rate. Mainly, my IBS constipation and nausea are much worse, which I recently concluded is heavily contributing to my IC, as I described earlier. Twice previously last year after being scoped, my doctor prescribed Colace stool softener, although I'd told him in the past that I already takee the generic stuff, and about 5 time as much per day as is usually recommended. I asked him why he keeps prescribing it and he said that he can see my descending color and rectum pushing in on the bladder and assumed getting the sh.t out (literally) would help. It does, but the cycle repeats endlessly once or maybe twice a week - after my last major BM, I have a day, maybe two of feeling semi-OK, then I start feeling bloated for a day, then I feel "things moving around inside", then it's a feeling of having a football in my intestines, which is about the time the nausea starts. Eventually, after 5-9 days of this, I finally need to go, and then I ride the porcelain pony off and on for a couple of days, with resulting nausea and an IC flare-up. My third non-life threatening condition is joint pain, but /not/ arthritis. It's a damn good thing as I cannot tolerate NSAIDs. The last time my doctor tried, just 3 months on Naproxin gave me a severe bleeding duodenal ulcer that /was/ life-threatening. To control the joint pain, I take Norco and to control the IC I take Vicodin. They're both hydrocodone and acetametaphine, but the formulation by the competing phamacuetical firms use different fillers and non-acting ingredients, so the effect is different. Really curious thing, Norco 10-365mg helps my knees and elbow but not the IC, while Vicodin 10-660mg helps my IC but not my joints. The hydrocodone wrecks havoc with my constipation, as you'd guess. So, 3 conditions, 3 sets of drugs. And, every God Damn drug causes a very unpleasant side-effect to the other 3 conditions. The constipation thingy is why I stopped the Elavil and Elmiron for IC and stopped Librax for intestinal cramping. As you know far better than I do, it /is/ possible to have a non-life threatening condition(s) and be in a lot of pain or discomfort anyway, and for an indefinite time span. Good luck, George! SignatureATM, aka Jerry > Today George commented courteously on the subject at hand > [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > Good luck, George! Hi Jerry. Yes I am all aware of the agony non-life-threatening pain. On another note, I also have a hiatal hernia. My family doctor prescribed nexium for the condition back in 2004. I was on the medication for about 9 months. In November of that year I developed a really bad case of infectious colitis. I have to say that that was about the worst illness I've ever experienced. Because I am unemployed, I stopped taking that medication after the prescription ran out, and started using standard antacids when I need it, which helps. About a month ago, I learned that the FDA has warned that proton pump inhibitors like nexium shuts down natural defenses against certain bacterial infections of the intestines and colon, and can lead to severe infectious colitis. Can you believe it??? For the life of me I could never understand how I got such a bad infection. NOW I KNOW! Bastards! Anyway, I survived. Others were not so lucky. I understand that a number of nursing home patients died from it. George Today George commented courteously on the subject at hand > Hi Jerry. Yes I am all aware of the agony > non-life-threatening pain. On another note, I also have a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > survived. Others were not so lucky. I understand that a > number of nursing home patients died from it. Egad! Glad you got through that with your skin, literally, George! The really sad thing about modern medicine, is that in the rush to get new treatments to market to help people - and help pharmaceutical firms make profits - not nearly enough is understood about side effects. Worse, drug-to-drug-to-drrug... interaction side-effects aren't studied nor are the effects of drugs for one condition aggravating another studied. There are literally /no/ controlled clinical trials for that sort of thing. So, in my example, even though my gastro and uro guys know that IBS and IC are related, and both are good doctors, neither can articulate exactly what is happening. And, naturally, I can't find anything by Googling. Then, there's the opposite problem, something like Vioxx. A hundred or so people die, /maybe/ from Vioxx, and the drug is taken off the market now denying pain relief needed by people who are not at risk, or are willing to take the risk. The 14th Amendment is now being perverted by the courts into saying that if you're too dumb to prevent harm to yourself, the government will! That's fine, they should keep an eye on things, but God Damn it, I should have control over my own medical life,but I really don't. Good luck to you, George. And, to Pete. And, to me. SignatureATM, aka Jerry > Today George commented courteously on the subject at hand > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > literally /no/ controlled clinical trials for that sort of > thing. Well, part of the problem is mindset. Effects are effects. There are no "side-effects". They should study all the effects, and treat them as effects of the medication, whether beneficial or detrimental. And as you say, the other is simple greed. So next time you see a Nexium commercial, and see all the glorious claims they make about it, imagine those handful per thousand white-knuckled, clutching at a toilet seat crapping their damned guts out. All I can do is shake my head in disgust. Sadly, it does work for what it was intended (i.e., it helps with the hernia and reflux). But if you have to die from another ailment caused by the medicine intended to cure the ails for which you are taking it, what's the point? I'm simply tired of doctors using me for a guinnea pig, or worse, racking up seaside vacation points from the pharmaceutical industry. With this new medicare drug program, I can imagine it will only get worse. You know, it's almost as bad as the Spanish inquisition, and nearly as deadly. > So, in my example, even though my gastro and uro guys know > that IBS and IC are related, and both are good doctors, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > things, but God Damn it, I should have control over my own > medical life,but I really don't. Yeah, I was given celebrex for tendinitis in my elbow at about that time. I took two pills, and then the next day they announced that it had similar problems that vioxx had and were taking it off the market. I stopped taking them and it took about 3 months for the tendonitis to clear up. Ouch! I had a ear infection about 6 weeks ago, and one of the doctors in my family doctors' office treated me using a very expensive antibiotic. When he handed me the presciption, I looked at it, and didn't recognize the name (can't recall what it was called right off), and reminded him than I don't have insurance and am unemployed, so I needed something that wasn't going to cost me a lot. His answer was that it was very effective, and reasonably priced. When I went to the pharmacist, he told me that five pills would cost me $125. I balked, of course, and asked him to call the doctor for a different prescription. The doctor refused and said it was the medicine I needed. Well, the pharmacist was very kind and gave me a discount (he knocked of about $25 off the cost - he doesn't set the price, but I still wonder how whe was able to give me such a discount), so I went home and took them. The medicine was very effective for me, but imagine my chagrin when I learned about a week later that the FDA was taking that drug off the market because it had killed three people, destroyed the liver in two others who had had to have liver transplants, and gave another hepatitis! I never go to that doctor because he's done crap like this to me before, and is an arogant SOB, but there was no one else available that day. Needless to say, I called the office and gave them an ear full! Never again! > Good luck to you, George. And, to Pete. And, to me. Thanks, Jerry. Same to you. Today George commented courteously on the subject at hand >> The really sad thing about modern medicine, is that in the >> rush to get new treatments to market to help people - and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > effects, and treat them as effects of the medication, > whether beneficial or detrimental. Just semantics, George. "side effect" simply means "not a planned effect". Naturally, they are all "effects" but people and doctors have a different view. And, there are positive as well as negative side effects. My point was that no one, and I mean no one, has the faintest God Damn clue what happens when somebody takes 6, 12, 30 prescription meds a day along with who knows what OTC drugs, what herbs and supplements, etc. It took my gastroenterologist a year, and 3 tries on my part, to figure out that some of my IC stuff was messing up my IBS and vice versa, and the hydrocodone for joint pain was messing both up. But, he was basing all this on a quick read of the list of meds I take daily, and not looking in a PDR for the good and bad effects of each of my meds, and total effect on my mind and body in combination. > And as you say, the > other is simple greed. So next time you see a Nexium [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > Thanks, Jerry. Same to you. SignatureATM, aka Jerry > I had a ear infection about 6 weeks ago, and one of the doctors in my > family doctors' office treated me using a very expensive antibiotic. When [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > but there was no one else available that day. Needless to say, I > called the office and gave them an ear full! Never again! George...what an a.shole that doctor was. You should have just told him you wanted a generic. Boy that prima donna bastard really pisses me off, and he shouldn't be praciticing medicine (for god's sake he's just a damn gen practioner and not even an ENT). What is the name of the drug, I am very curious...Pete >> I had a ear infection about 6 weeks ago, and one of the doctors in my >> family doctors' office treated me using a very expensive antibiotic. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > gen practioner and not even an ENT). What is the name of the drug, I am > very curious...Pete I suspect he has his hand in the pharmaceutical kitty. he antibiotic was caused Ketec. Here is an article I found about it. It looks like I was wrong about the specifics on the fatalities and the illnesses it caused, but not about the fact that people died and/or got sick. George http://lungdiseases.about.com/b/a/238782.htm >> Today George commented courteously on the subject at hand >> [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > > George The fact that is that you are no longer producing the acid that will deal with bugs that cause food poisoning and the like. Like you I have Haital Hernia and find that Nexium is the PPI that suits me best. I had something akin to IBS three years ago but that was defiantly due to the antibiotics rather than the PPI when I had triple therapy for Helicobacter pylori. The pain from that lasted for about a year. My doctor also takes a PPI and says that when he goes abroad to less hygienic countries he stops taking it as he needs the protection of acid then. During that time he takes liquid Gaviscon to help his reflux. Do you know that another issue from lack of stomach acid is that polyps often form in the stomach and of course Nexium can cause lack of sexual desire in both men and women :-) Derek. > The fact that is that you are no longer producing the acid that will > deal with bugs that cause food poisoning and the like. Like you I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > acid is that polyps often form in the stomach and of course Nexium > can cause lack of sexual desire in both men and women :-) Derek. Derek...I was typing my post just as you were sending this. Make sure to read it (2:50pm). :-) ...Pete >> The fact that is that you are no longer producing the acid that will >> deal with bugs that cause food poisoning and the like. Like you I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Derek...I was typing my post just as you were sending this. Make sure to > read it (2:50pm). :-) ...Pete I guess you know about the NG alt.support.heartburn where an excellent doctor very often answers questions and gives advice. I have spoken to a couple of people recently who had partial fundoplication. Both were very pleased with the procure and can BURP ! Most doctors I have spoken to make the remark about "Fancy never being able to burp again" I am beginning to think that not burping might be a better option than chest pain/pressure caused by what is now non acid reflux, (thanks to Nexium) very dry throat and airways during the night and the possibility of polyps. Having got rid of my prostate I might as well get rid of another problem. Derek. >>> The fact that is that you are no longer producing the acid that will >>> deal with bugs that cause food poisoning and the like. Like you I [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > during the night and the possibility of polyps. Having got rid of my > prostate I might as well get rid of another problem. Derek. Thanks Derek...I never bothered with the site, but will check it. I have too many health problems and don't have anyone to help me and I was told I was not a candidate for fundo anyway (i.e. my LES is okay - but other gastros said I had a minor hiatel hernia - hell if there isn't something wrong down there, I wouldn't have GERD). Anyway they don't do fundos where I live - would have to go to Baltimore, and I have been there 3 times in my life with nothing to show for it. I have had about a dozen EGD's in my life so I know a little about gastro stuff. I will probably end up with 200 polyps if I keep taking PPI's. I have been to too many doc's in my life like I have said since I have been posting here. Went to Baltimore for another opinion from gastro in 2004, and it was a joke (long story - never saw him again - he recommended a 24 hour ph from a gastro at the center for that stuff, and ended up with the worst bronchitis of my life from the tube - my local gastro didn't even know how to read the 24 hour ph report (it's a simple x/y graph relationship that I could easily figure out), when I tried to query him on it, and he didn't even know it was forwarded to him and had to go thumbing through his chart to find it. You guys must have better luck than me with doctors, plus you all have your wives and family for support and transportation to procedures. I'm telling you there are very few doctor's as good as Dr. Sancha. I don't like them. I just loaded the heartburn ng you mentioned. I see Howard Mcollister is in there. He also frequents the sci.med ng. Do you know if he is a general surgeon. I assume so, I asked him once a long time ago in the sci.med group, and he never answered me. I kow that you know there are no guarantees in surgery. I believe PVP's are simple compared to hiatel hernia surgery and fundo's. Messing around near the vagus nerve sounds scary at best, if you have the surgery, and you can't swallow or have difficulty swallowing afterward, you will be screwed. I would think about it. Have you had a 24 hour ph, and do your gastro's say you may be a candidate for a fundo. I thought they usually don't do those procedures unless the PPI's stop working, although I hear what you said about the gas pains and these polyps are also scary...Pete >>>> The fact that is that you are no longer producing the acid that will >>>> deal with bugs that cause food poisoning and the like. Like you I [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > don't do those procedures unless the PPI's stop working, although I hear > what you said about the gas pains and these polyps are also scary...Pete I can understand that you don't want to go to Baltimore :-) On my many visits to America it was the only city that I disliked. Derek. >>>>> The fact that is that you are no longer producing the acid that will >>>>> deal with bugs that cause food poisoning and the like. Like you I [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > visits to America it was the only city that I disliked. > Derek. lol George(in derby city> >>> The fact that is that you are no longer producing the acid that will >>> deal with bugs that cause food poisoning and the like. Like you I [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > well get rid of another problem. > Derek. Hi Derek. Since I took myself off the Nexium, and have basically treated myself by watching my diet very carefully (which I was trying to do anyway because of my IC), not laying down immediately after eating, and taking an mild OTC antacid before, and sometimes after I eat,and only when I feel that it is going to flare up on me. I still get reflux and chest pain on ocassion, but I think I have it mostly under control. I'll never take a pill like Nexium ever again. At least, not if I can help it. George >>> Today George commented courteously on the subject at hand >>> [quoted text clipped - 97 lines] > desire in both men and women :-) > Derek. Yeah, I'm aware of what the medicine does. I didn't know at the time that shutting down the acid production would cause me to get infectious colitis. It would have been nice if I had had some kind of warning, don't you think? George >>> George >> The fact that is that you are no longer producing the acid that will [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > infectious colitis. It would have been nice if I had had some kind of > warning, don't you think? George...I was going to ask you before,but didn't. How the hell were you diagnosed with infectious colitis (what kind of doctor and by what method). I'm sure you didn't have a scope since you don't have insurance. You didn't indicate how you were diagnosed when you mentioned it in your post previously. Was you family doctor just guessing or what. BTW this thread is getting out of hand. If it keeps up everybody should at least snip...Pete > George >>>> George >> Yeah, I'm aware of what the medicine does. I didn't know at the time >> that shutting down the acid production would cause me to get [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >> George I went to my regular family doctor (not the one I mentioned earlier), and he used a rectal probe, and took a stool sample. George >>>>> George > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I went to my regular family doctor (not the one I mentioned earlier), > and he used a rectal probe, and took a stool sample. Boy those days are gone in the U.S.A. That's unbelievable. Did you mean a real probe with an anascope or just a digital exam with his finger. sh.t, even the general surgeons where I live now don't have anascopes (one did in my last residence - he had a neat little 6 inch scope with a light in it - colorectal surgeons also use the old ball in socket type, kind of like a specula). Sorry I'm going off again, but my point is you can't get anything from a damn gen practioner or internist these days except a referral to a specialist. Good for your doctor. You are in U.K. aren't you. Maybe it's better over there, but I tend to doubt it...Pete >>>>>> George >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > specialist. Good for your doctor. You are in U.K. aren't you. Maybe > it's better over there, but I tend to doubt it...Pete I don't know what kind of probe it was. He didn't use his finger. He used some kind of metal impliment (man, it was cold!) that I assumed was a probe that allowed him to look up into my colon and collect a sample. No, I'm in Louisville, Kentucky. We have a huge medical community here, lots of doctors, specialists, and nurses, hospitals and medical centers. The Jargis artifical heart program was located here, if you recall. We also have some of the best orthopedic surgeons in the business. In fact, the medical profession is the largest profession here. Louisville is a regional powerhouse for the medical profession. If you look at the job listings here, you will see that about 90% of the jobs listed are medical-related. And the doctor I went to for this problem is a member of a large group of general practioners (family doctors, about 25, in all). George >>>>>>> George >>> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > group of general practioners (family doctors, about 25, in all). > George Sorry about the U.K. thing George, I guess you meant the Kentucky Derby when you said derby city before in a response to Derek :-) ...Pete >>>>>>>> George >>>> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > when you said > derby city before in a response to Derek :-) ...Pete Yes. No problem. George > Hi Jerry. Yes I am all aware of the agony non-life-threatening pain. > On another note, I also have a hiatal hernia. My family doctor [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > against certain bacterial infections of the intestines and colon, and > can lead to severe infectious colitis. Can you believe it??? George...Could you find the site or whatever where you learned about the FDA warning. I have been on PPI's for 8 years now, and can't live without them. I am on my third one now since my prevacid stopped working in 2004 (went through hell). They have caused fundic polyps in my stomach, which scares the hell out of me but can't do anything about. Hiatel hernia surgery (or fundos) is major surgery and can mess up your vagus nerve - then you may not be able to swallow or burp or vomit (bad stuff - a general surgeon told me hiatel hernia surgery made colostomies look like a walk in the park). If what you say is true, now I am really screwed. I know I have proctotitis and/or sigmoid colitis as I write this, and have had severe rectal pain along with my uro problems in last few months. Just had third hemorrhoid surgery last August, and all the surgeons banded up and dropped my insurance. There is one left that takes my insurance, and I can't get to see him till Feb 24. I don't get along with doctors, so I am worried about the upcoming visit. For what it's worth the PPI's are about ten times more effective than H2 blockers (zantac,etc), and infinitely better than OTC antacids. H2 blockers won't touch my GERD and antacids are a joke. And if you take antacids all the time you could end up with more trouble than taking PPI's (either the metal ones or the calcium ones). Please see if you can find that site about the FDA. Thanks...Pete For the > life of me I could never understand how I got such a bad infection. > NOW I KNOW! Bastards! Anyway, I survived. Others were not so lucky. > I understand that a number of nursing home patients died from it. > George >> Hi Jerry. Yes I am all aware of the agony non-life-threatening pain. >> On another note, I also have a hiatal hernia. My family doctor [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >> I understand that a number of nursing home patients died from it. >> George Wow, Pete. I'm not a doctor, so I can't give you professional advice, but man to man? If it was me, I'd find another solution. I can't say that your proctotitis and/or sigmoid colitis is caused by the Nexium, but given my experience with the drug, the length of time it appears that you have taken it, and the health warnings that are out there, if it was me? I'd have serious doubts about continuing its use. If you stop taking it, you didn't get that from me. I would, however, have a serious discussion of this issue with your doctor. Research it on the internet, print out anything you can find on it, and take that information with you. I couldn't find an FDA warning (hell, I'm not entirely sure it was the FDA that made the warning), but the findings were originally made by Sandra Dial, MD, MSc, a researcher at McGill University in Montreal. Her study appears in The Journal of the American Medical Association. Here is a Web M.D. article about the problem: http://www.webmd.com/content/article/116/112226.htm And here is the original article I read: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10535637/ I hope this helps. Good luck. Keep your chin up. I feel your pain, man! George >>> Hi Jerry. Yes I am all aware of the agony non-life-threatening pain. >>> On another note, I also have a hiatal hernia. My family doctor [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > George It is not that Nexium etc cause C- dif but that lack of acid in your stomach lets C- diff take hold and that those on antibiotics have their healthy bacteria destroyed. Have you ever tried taking Acidophillus to put good bugs back into your gut? A google search on C-diff infection brings up 100's of references. It seems to be regarded as an infection that lingers around hospitals, nursing homes and schools affecting the young and the elderly. Outbreaks are always being highlighted in the UK media. "According to a study headed by Sandra Dial, MD, MSc, a researcher at McGill University in Montreal, data was gathered from 3 million patients of 400 general practioners in the U.K. from 1994 to 2004. There were 1,672 identified cases of C-diff, with numbers increasing from less than one per 100,000 in 1994 to 22 per 100,000 in 2004. Dial reported that those patients taking proton pump inhibitors were nearly three times more likely to acquire a C-diff infection, and those taking H2 blockers were twice as likely to get a C-diff infection" Really quite a small percentage. http://www.disinclination.info/files/archive-0.html See heading The Plague !!! Derek. > It is not that Nexium etc cause C- dif but that lack of acid in your > stomach lets C- diff take hold and that those on antibiotics have [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > those taking H2 blockers were twice as likely to get a C-diff > infection" Really quite a small percentage. Derek...you lost me here. What is quite a small percentage. "Three times and two times more likely" are not small percentages. I don't see what you mean by a small percentage. Also see my post to George (just sent - 4:14pm) - I don't want to be redundant...Pete > http://www.disinclination.info/files/archive-0.html > See heading The Plague !!! > Derek. >> It is not that Nexium etc cause C- dif but that lack of acid in your >> stomach lets C- diff take hold and that those on antibiotics have [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> See heading The Plague !!! >> Derek. 22 people per hundred thousand in the general population but three times that for those on PPI's ie 66 per 100,000. Derek. >>>> Hi Jerry. Yes I am all aware of the agony non-life-threatening pain. >>>> On another note, I also have a hiatal hernia. My family doctor [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > See heading The Plague !!! > Derek. A jump from 1 in 100,000 to 22 in 100,000 is a significant jump. George >>>>> Hi Jerry. Yes I am all aware of the agony non-life-threatening pain. >>>>> On another note, I also have a hiatal hernia. My family doctor [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > > George Look at the figures for the incidence of MRSA in the U.K.:-) Derek. Today George commented courteously on the subject at hand > A jump from 1 in 100,000 to 22 in 100,000 is a significant > jump. Only if you're one of the 21! <grin> Seriously, Vioxx was killed because 125 people allegedly died from heart conditions, yet it has still to be proven. Meanwhile, /millions/ of people are denied pain medication they need to sustain their lifestyles. But, I am not an apologist for doctors or the greedy drug makers. A doctor damn near killed me in 1998 giving me Naproxin without verifying I didn't have a stomach problem. I developed a severe bleeding duodenal ulcer and was in the hospital for 6 days. So, I'm aware of potential problems and question the hell out of my doctors and do my own research before starting something new, or getting any new procedure done to me. SignatureATM, aka Jerry > Today George commented courteously on the subject at hand > >> A jump from 1 in 100,000 to 22 in 100,000 is a significant >> jump. > > Only if you're one of the 21! <grin> Apparently, I was. > Seriously, Vioxx was killed > because 125 people allegedly died from heart conditions, yet it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > out of my doctors and do my own research before starting > something new, or getting any new procedure done to me. Some doctors, no doubt, don't spend enough time on screening (some don't even try to stay up to date on the latest research), while others spend an inordinate amount of time and money trying to diagnose individual symptoms and don't take a close enough look at the big picture. It is a serious problem. George Today George commented courteously on the subject at hand > Some doctors, no doubt, don't spend enough time on > screening (some don't even try to stay up to date on the > latest research), while others spend an inordinate amount > of time and money trying to diagnose individual symptoms > and don't take a close enough look at the big picture. It > is a serious problem. My docs don't remember from one appointment to another what I say to them, and they can't seem to connect the symptoms. I'm referring primarily right now to /me/ making the "diagnosis" that my IBS is related to my IC far more than current research suggests. Yes, the gastro guy knows the uro stuff, and vice versa, but I /cannot/ get them to speculate into the other specialty! Come on, guys, you're very smart and very experienced. Ditto for meds. /I/ discover what may help on my own. It aggravates me to no end to have one say "oh, yeah, that might help, I'll write you a script." Duh! Where the hell were you when the page was blank, while I was suffering in ignorance? I haven't run through near as many doctors as some, and fortunately I don't have your employment-related insurance problems, but finding, getting, and keeping a competant, caring doctor is no trivial task. SignatureATM, aka Jerry > Today George commented courteously on the subject at hand > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > problems, but finding, getting, and keeping a competant, caring > doctor is no trivial task. Jerry...we have discussed this before many times in the IC ng, and I totally agree with you 100%, and this is why I don't like doctors. I hate it when they go fumbling through their chart in a blind stare trying to figure out who they are talking to and what your history is (I know they see a lot of patients, but that excuse only goes so far). It took me six years to get my last internist (a young man) to call me by my first name. I was just a chart to him - and he would tap on the door and say "Hey how are you doing", not knowing who he was talking to - and I could hear him say the same thing to the other patients - and I saw him every three months. And now I have a new internist because the other one up and quit for a promotion, just when I finally got him to call me Pete. I hate it when doctors won't take the time or the effort to be more personable, and show a bedside manner, and call you by your first name. I always introduce myself to them and try to shake their hands, and it usually goes in one ear and out the other. I could easily write a book about my misfortunes with doctors and the insults and abuse I have taken from them. I have been to many bad doctors in my life who IMO should not be practicing medicine. I consider them necessary evils, and I have grown to be afraid of them for fear if I say something wrong I will be dismissed. I hate it, and am running out of doctors in the small community I live (especially since they all band together), and if you try to give the next doctor too much of your history he will just jump on the band wagon and agree with the other doctors or think that you are a "problem patient". It's tricky stuff and you have to be very careful what you say to them, because they will write nasty notes about you (forgetting that we can get complete copies of our medical history any time we want). Oooops, I hate it when it does that :-):-) ...Pete Today Pete commented courteously on the subject at hand >> Today George commented courteously on the subject at hand >> [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > our medical history any time we want). Oooops, I hate it > when it does that :-):-) ...Pete I agree fully, although my experience isn't as any near extensive nor as negative as yours. The "these guys stick together" little club is so strong that the easiest way to get fired by /all/ your doctors, whether you're a a small town as you are or a big city like I am, is to have the temarity to say one of their colleagues is incompetant - even if they are, your doc knows it, and he may even hate the other guy himself! The very best thing I've found is to be 1,000% prepared when I walk in. A /long/ time ago I stated giving them a MS Word doc with my current meds on it, and a short MS Word doc of the scripts I want, so they don't F__k something up, and they still do! My family doctor and urologist /know/ what is in my chart, right? And, they know what I'm allergic to, right? And, they have a printed page to tell them the drug name, the exact mg dosage and quantity, right? So, how can they possibly /still/ write the script wrong? When I last went to the hospital for a hytdrodistension, I gave my urologist all that, the meds /I/ knew he was going to prescribe post op, remind him of what he could /not/ prescribe because I'm allergic, even the size catheter I wanted. When you wake up in recovery, he's long gone and you're toast. When the nurse anthetist injects the kickapoo joy juice, I am literally out like a light in 15 seconds flat, and the very next thing I'm aware of is the nurse saying "you did fine, Mr. Rivers, we're going to wheel you into recovery now." So, I look at the wall clock, and 30-45 minutes of my life is missing! What exactly did or did not go on in those minutes? I will never know, except what I /can't/ feel for 3 hours from the spinal. I have had a very brief encounter with what it must feel like to be a paraplegic, and mine is only a few hours. Egad! What is absolutely scary is if 3 people who've been working on this as long as you, me, and George have can get messed around even though we are /very/ knowledgeable, what the hell happens to some poor bastard that just goes to the doc and says "how come my bladder hurts all the time?"! |
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