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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / January 2006

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PVP Setback

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Chockman - 01 Jan 2006 17:25 GMT
62 yr old who had TUMT 7/2/04 followed by PVP 2/23/05.  Intent was to do
bladder neck sparing PVP which was done with the chance of only 20%
retrograde ejac.  At 44 weeks after PVP, still have retro.  And in the
last few weeks have had  a return of symptoms at night...difficulty
starting flow with a partially filled bladder and some feeling of not
emptying.  Night visits had been down to an average of 2 per night, and
then around Christmas, the night visits started to increase to every 1.5
hrs. Restarted Uroxatral 12/28.  Will have a PSA 1/3. Prior PSAs  have
been in the range 1.1 - 1.7 Appt with the URO 1/9 for reassessment.
Interesting that by the third dose of Uroxatral, started to have lower
back pain again. Haven't had that since the PVP was done and Uroxatral
discontinued.  In the surgery report, the URO made "a single incision in
the bladder neck at the 5 oclock position which opened it up nicely."
(Thus the retro).  "It is entirely possible that he will need additional
therapy, including total ablation of the bladder neck..."  I suspect I
may be headed for additional surgery.  I would be interested in hearing
from any who have had "total ablation of the bladder neck" and what
their outcomes were.
fgomsan@gmail.com - 02 Jan 2006 21:34 GMT
Chockman,

The chance of retrograde ejaculation after a single incission in the
bladder neck is between 10 and 20%, which means that 2 out of 10
patients get this problem. If you get it, then it will stay with you
unless the prostate grows enough to block the bladder neck, which could
cause antegrade ejaculation, but most likely also voiding difficulty.

TUIP (transurethral incission of the prostate) has the same results as
TURP when it is done in small prostates (e.g. 30 grams). This was
previously done with a resectoscope, but nowadays it can also be done
with a KTP laser.

I would recommend doing a GU tract ultrasound scan and measure the
uroflow and check the residual urine after voiding to evaluate your
situation. I would also check your urine. If you are heading for a full
PVP due to residual obstruction, you will void better, and the retro
will continue there.

The total ablation of the bladder neck is usually part of the normal
PVP, and of a TURP. The chances of retrograde ejaculation after this
(if the PVP is aggressive) are in the region of 60-70%.

Good luck,

Fernando Gómez Sancha
http://drgomezsancha2.blogspot.com
Chockman - 03 Jan 2006 03:57 GMT
Thank you Dr Sancha for the information.  I find the information to be
very useful and informative.  It will be a great addition when I talk to
my URO on Monday.

gomsan@gmail.com wrote:
> Chockman,
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Fernando Gómez Sancha
> http://drgomezsancha2.blogspot.com
Pete - 03 Jan 2006 19:34 GMT
> Thank you Dr Sancha for the information.  I find the information to be
> very useful and informative.  It will be a great addition when I talk
> to my URO on Monday.

Chockman...will you please tell me and the ng how you diplomatically discuss
with your uro the things that you have picked up in the ng (or from other
sources), without him getting upset with you (or is he just one of the good
doctors like Dr. Sancha, and he doesn't mind - which is rare IMO).  I have
mentioned this over and over in this ng, and have never got anybody to
comment on it, or agree or disagree with me.  Like I have told you all I
have been to *many* doctors in my life and my experience is that the vast
majority of them don't like it when you indicate you research your
disease/condition...Pete

> gomsan@gmail.com wrote:
>> Chockman,
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>> Fernando Gómez Sancha
>> http://drgomezsancha2.blogspot.com 
Derek F - 03 Jan 2006 22:31 GMT
.

> Chockman...will you please tell me and the ng how you diplomatically
> discuss with your uro the things that you have picked up in the ng (or
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the vast majority of them don't like it when you indicate you research
> your disease/condition...Pete

Snipped.
Uro's are like other people, some have open enquiring minds and others
closed ones. My Uro in Newcastle (England) has a very open and enquiring
mind and takes time with his PVP patients. He has been interested in many of
the thoughts and patients reports that  I have found on the net and in
return has pointed me in the direction of helpful articles. I mentioned Dr
Sancha's Blog to him and will pass on the web address to him when I see him
this week.
Derek.
Chockman - 03 Jan 2006 22:34 GMT
>>Thank you Dr Sancha for the information.  I find the information to be
>>very useful and informative.  It will be a great addition when I talk
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> majority of them don't like it when you indicate you research your
> disease/condition...Pete

Hi Pete...

In order to understand where I am coming from, please understand that I
was with the same family doc for 30 years.  He closed his small practice
and joined up with a large group practice in the Portland, Or, metro
area.  In about 1995-96, the large group practice went out of business
leaving me high and dry without any medical care.  When that
announcement was made, I requested a copy of all records from that
group. In 2002, my allergist from another area wanted me to see an
Internist due to shortness of breath.  I called a physician friend and
asked to whom she would go if she were in my situation.  She gave me the
name of my current internist.  He is one of a kind.  He has supervised
my care, referred me to cardiology and a surgeon for CABG surgery.  Over
the last three years a pattern has developed.  He performs an annual
physical and sees me every 3-4 months to monitor blood pressure and
cholesterol.  He takes his time on my office visits, uses references to
educate me about my health.

Since the large group practice closed, I have requested copies of all
surgeries, all office visits from the various docs providing care:
internist, cardiologist, gastroenterology, allergy, ENT, Urologist.  I
put that information in a 3 inch notebook and that notebook goes with me
whenever I see a doc.  In the notebook are copies of all lab tests, all
surgery reports, summaries of office visits, etc.

When I go to a new doc, I write a letter summarizing pertinent medical
history relevant to the new problem.  I share pertinent prior
information, lab reports, etc.  with any new doc seeing me for a new
problem.  I don't have equal success in discussing my medical problems
with all my new docs, but at least I go into the office visit with as
much knowledge about my condition as I can muster. I find that these
written summaries to be valuable to new docs as they evaluate my new
problem. I am not afraid to ask questions.

I also find that having copies of office notes and surgery reports
provide me with information that I did not gain in the office interview
with the doc.  That information leads to more questions.  The great
majority of physicians appreciate my interest in my own care.  Only a
few feel threatened.

My clinical experience as a social worker in a state hospital over 30
years where I worked closely with all kinds of medical staff has taught
me that these folks are not to be feared and that I as a patient should
not feel intimidated.  They are human beings just like the rest of us.
My advice...take charge of your own care...no one else has more at stake
than you....That is why I appreciate the information that I gain from
newsgroups like this one!!!  Thanks again, Dr Sancha.

>>gomsan@gmail.com wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>>>Fernando Gómez Sancha
>>>http://drgomezsancha2.blogspot.com
Pete - 04 Jan 2006 01:23 GMT
> My clinical experience as a social worker in a state hospital over 30
> years where I worked closely with all kinds of medical staff has
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> information that I gain from newsgroups like this one!!!  Thanks
> again, Dr Sancha.

Chockman...I agree with everything you said, except not totally.  I indeed
take charge of my medical care and have a copy of everything that has ever
happened to me, and study all the time.  But I still believe way more than
half of the doctors don't like you indicating your research, and possibly
questioning them or making them feel threatened or indicate that you are a
"challange" to them.  I know you have to be diplomatic, but some of them are
SOB's and prima donnas and it won't matter what you say or how you say it
(ie you may be dismissed).  Best wishes...Pete
Chockman - 04 Jan 2006 01:38 GMT
Pete...

If I found myself at odds continually with a doc, he and I would soon
part ways.  I don't believe that an arrogant "SOB" really would have my
best interest at heart.  I believe that my medical care depends on a
cooperative effort between the doc and me.  I would never be able to
work with a doc who did not listen to what I had to say.

>>My clinical experience as a social worker in a state hospital over 30
>>years where I worked closely with all kinds of medical staff has
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> SOB's and prima donnas and it won't matter what you say or how you say it
> (ie you may be dismissed).  Best wishes...Pete
Pete - 04 Jan 2006 02:21 GMT
> Pete...
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a cooperative effort between the doc and me.  I would never be able to
> work with a doc who did not listen to what I had to say.

Chockman...I absolutely agree 100%, and that is why I have such a hard time
dealing with the SOB's.  And when you live in a small community, you soon
run out of doctors (lol).  I think we are saying the same thing, or maybe
its just me.  If you haven't figured it out, I do not like doctors (except
for Dr. Sancha of course, and he is rare at best)...Pete

>>> My clinical experience as a social worker in a state hospital over
>>> 30 years where I worked closely with all kinds of medical staff has
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>> donnas and it won't matter what you say or how you say it (ie you
>> may be dismissed).  Best wishes...Pete
Bruce@BruceSiegel.com - 03 Jan 2006 18:54 GMT
> The total ablation of the bladder neck is usually part of the normal
> PVP, and of a TURP. The chances of retrograde ejaculation after this
> (if the PVP is aggressive) are in the region of 60-70%.

Hi Dr. Sancha,

This figure surprises me so I want to make sure I'm understanding you
correctly.  You're saying that a "normal" PVP has a 60-70% chance of
causing retrograde ejaculation?  Judging from the PVP reports from
readers of this newsgroup, I thought the odds were much lower.

Thank you for participating here!  Your generosity threatens to give
urologists a good name.  :o)    

Bruce
fgomsan@gmail.com - 05 Jan 2006 08:21 GMT
Bruce,

The chance of retrograde ejaculation depends on the aggressivenes of
the PVP. if you do a PVP and try to remove as much tissue as with a
TURP, the chances of retrograde ejaculation are as high as with TURP.
If you do a channel PVP, then it is more likely to keep antegrade
ejaculation, but it is less likely that the patient will improve his
voiding efficiency and uncertain for how long

I believe patients fare better when you are aggressive with PVP, and my
patients have a high percentage of retrogade ejaculation, about 60-70%.
Bruce@BruceSiegel.com - 05 Jan 2006 19:06 GMT
Hi Dr. Sancha,

Thanks so much for the reply.  Retrograde ejaculation is probably my
greatest fear in considering the PVP operation I may need in the
future. In reading this newsgroup, it seems that many men who are
experiencing retro are not deeply troubled by it.  But some seem to be
quite unhappy with this result.  Have you followed up on your patients
who have retro to see how they feel about it?  How would you yourself
feel about the prospect of having retro?

Once again, thanks so much for the time and care you give to this
newsgroup.  We are thirsty for this kind of expert, detailed
information, and it's not always easy to find, even from our own
doctors!

Bruce
Pete - 05 Jan 2006 19:27 GMT
> Hi Dr. Sancha,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> information, and it's not always easy to find, even from our own
> doctors!

Sorry to sound repetitive guys, but I have been to many doctors in my life
in most of the specialties and I have *never* seen one compare to Dr. Sancha
for explaining things so clearly and completely.  IMO most doctors won't
tell you anything unless you specifically ask them (if they give you the
time), and then you get a lot of "I don't know's" for answers.  I can
guarantee you the uro's I have been to in my life don't know as much as Dr.
Sancha (and if they do they hide it well - lol).  Kudos to you again Dr.
Sancha...Pete

> Bruce
fgomsan@gmail.com - 06 Jan 2006 22:31 GMT
Bruce,

There are very few studies of how patients experience retrograde
ejaculation and how orgasm sensations change after prostatectomy. I
only recall an article from Mark Emberton, a prostate expert from
London, mentioning that urologists should inform patients about
possible changes in their orgasms after prostatectomy, because this is
something patients worry about and urologists were not very aware of.

In my experience, some patients experience and improvement in orgasm
after prostatectomy, and some tell me that their orgasm is weakened. As
you say, most patients are not very troubled by retrograde ejaculation
(or maybe they do not confess their real feeling about it) and only
some experience in a traumatic way. Female partners also react
differently, some women find it better (not so sticky;-), but some
women have the feeling that their partner does not enjoy sex so much,
because they identify men's orgasm and pleasure with ejaculation, and
are troubled with this....

I guess you trade a better 24-hour voiding quality of life after
prostatectomy for a risk of feeling a weaker orgasm and lack of
ejaculation once or more times a week (month?- year?)....

Fernando Gómez Sancha
http://drgomezsancha2.blogspot.com
Bruce@BruceSiegel.com - 06 Jan 2006 23:18 GMT
Dr.Sancha,

Thanks for your usual thoughtful and balanced reply.  While I'm still
concerned about how retro might affect my life should I need to have
PVP, it's good to be reminded that it would not necessarily mean the
end of the world. At the moment I'm hoping that the dietary changes
I've made, and the foods and supplements I've added (pumpkin seeds,
flax seeds, beta sitosterol) will keep me off of the operating table
and make this entire question a moot point!

Bruce
Bruce@BruceSiegel.com - 07 Jan 2006 00:35 GMT
Dr. Sancha,

Thanks for your usual thoughtful and balanced reply.   While I'm
still concerned as to what retro might mean for my life should I need
PVP, I'm glad to be reminded that it wouldn't necessarily be the
end of the world.  At the moment, I'm hoping that the dietary changes
I've made, and the food and supplements I've added (pumpkin seeds,
flax seeds, beta-sitosterol) will keep me off of the operating table
and make the entire issue a moot point!

Bruce
Bruce@BruceSiegel.com - 07 Jan 2006 06:30 GMT
Dr. Sancha,

Thanks for your usual thoughtful and balanced reply.   While I'm
still concerned as to what retro might mean for my life should I need
PVP, I appreciate hearing your relatively optimistic take on the
matter.  At the moment, I'm hoping that the dietary changes I've
made, and the food and supplements I've added (pumpkin seeds, flax
seeds, beta-sitosterol) will keep me off of the operating table and
make the issue a moot point!

Bruce
Chockman - 07 Jan 2006 23:25 GMT
Dr Sancha:

I am intrigued with your statement that total ablation of the bladder
neck is usually part of the normal PVP and of a TURP...and that the
chances of retrograde ejaculation after an aggressive PVP are in the
region of 60-70%.

In your experience, have you been able to come up with any hints why
some patients develop retro (the 60-70%) and others do not develop retro
(30-40%).  If total ablation of the bladder neck is a usual part of the
PVP, why should not 100% of patients develop retro?

I appreciate your contributions on this newsgroup.  Thanks.

> The total ablation of the bladder neck is usually part of the normal
> PVP, and of a TURP. The chances of retrograde ejaculation after this
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Fernando Gómez Sancha
> http://drgomezsancha2.blogspot.com
 
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