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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / December 2005Ibuprofen Very Helpful -- For Me
I'm 65 and have had BPH for 10 years. For most of that time I've taken Saw Palmetto, and for the last couple of years I added Beta Sitosterol (Natrol Cholesterol Balance). They both seemed to help, and I honestly believe my symptoms may have subsided a bit since I started the Beta Sitosterol, but it's pretty subjective. Even so, going without peeing through a two hour movie was pretty tough, and I was up 2 - 5 times a night. Then, about three months back I was being bothered, mainly at night, by arthritis -- so I took a couple of Ibuprofen, and it helped the arthritis, but it also seemed to have an effect on the nightly trips to the john. I decided to experiment, so I talked to a pharmacist and in my case it seemed ok to take 800mg before going to bed. The effect was immediate and dramatic. In the last month I haven't had my sleep interrupted so much as once, and not more than a couple of times in the last three months. As long as I pop some ibuprofen first, movies are no longer a problem, either. (-8 The dose I'm taking exceeds manufacturer's recommendations, and for those taking an aspirin for their heart, Ibuprofen can interfere with the blood thinning effect, so it's probably not for everyone. A doctor is the best one to decide. Anyhow, for whatever it's worth, I just wanted to pass along my experience. Jeff >I'm 65 and have had BPH for 10 years. For most of that time I've taken >Saw Palmetto, and for the last couple of years I added Beta Sitosterol [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Anyhow, for whatever it's worth, I just wanted to pass along my >experience. Interesting. I too have been on ibuprofen at different times for tendon/muscle/vein problems. Twice, shortly after coming off the ibuprofen, I had episodes of total retention. I mentioned this to my uro at the time. He said, matter-of-factly, that Ibu does not affect the prostate. I said, but twice after coming off it, I had retention. He shrugged and said "coincidence". My PSA is high (around 15 these days) and I suppose that might suggest inflammation of the prostate. Ibu might cool that down. Logical. But as the uro said, there should be no effect. His info no doubt comes from his schooling, or from medical papers or bulletins, and their info probably comes from controlled studies. So perhaps he is right. But you say it helps you. What do you suppose the ibu does, reduce urine production (from the kidneys) or increase the working capacity of the bladder? It has to be one or the other (or maybe both). If the kidneys produce urine just as fast as before, and you are going to the john less often, that means the bladder can hold more. But maybe the ibu is reducing production of urine from the kidneys, in which case the ibu is having no effect on the prostate, just on the urine production. You could find out which it is by peeing into a graduated bottle. (They sell cheap ones in the baby dept.) Do this for a few days or weeks, keep records, and compare. Ed El & Ed, Very interesting !! I take ibu (2 pills) before going golfing. I don't have to pee hardly at all during the round (I walk and pull a handcart). During the second nine, I sometimes take the third ibu. Still no urgency to pee. Later that nite I'm up more often than other days !! Even though I take Hytrin for my prostate probs daily. Question: Has the ibu worn off, and I'm suffering a rebound effect ?? ( I also take a half aspirin per day at supper time for blood-thinning purposes + blood pressure medication). I wonder .. -Mel Smith See http://tinyurl.com/9zblz, http://tinyurl.com/anle9 and http://www.londonhealth.co.uk/menshealthprostate.asp. The latter two imply that Ibu helps BPH symptoms that are caused by prostatitis. I don't see any claim that Ibu would help BPH in the absence of prostatitis. Ed >El & Ed, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >-Mel Smith >El & Ed, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >-Mel Smith I empty my bladder and take 4X200mg (800mg) before going to bed. The effect is pretty dramatic, and I'm personally convinced it's the Ibuprofen, but I have no idea what the mechanism is. Can't say I experience a rebound or anything out of the ordinary the next morning. In fact I deliberately only take it once a day in the evening because I take an aspirin mid-day. Something I hadn't thought of until now. A few months before stumbling on the Ibuprofen thing, I hurt my back and was having trouble sleeping. My wife dipped into her vast reserve of pills and gave me a Vicodin. I took one a night for 2 or 3 nights. I think it had the same effect, but I never pursued it because I was pretty sure no doctor was going to prescribe Vicodin to relieve my urination problem. >>El & Ed, >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > effect, but I never pursued it because I was pretty sure no doctor was > going to prescribe Vicodin to relieve my urination problem. That's interesting, because one of the cautions with Vicodin is that it can cause urinary problems. It does with me. If I take it for any time exceeding about a week, I start having difficulty urinating. Don >El & Ed, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >all during the round (I walk and pull a handcart). During the second nine, >I sometimes take the third ibu. Still no urgency to pee. Different subject, but isn't it wiser to take the ibu AFTER excercise, so it doesn't mask pain? Ed Ed said: > Different subject, but isn't it wiser to take the ibu AFTER excercise, > so it doesn't mask pain? Ed, no, if I wait till later, I have quit a bit of pain in my knees and hips. If I take it just prior to the game, I don't have hardly any pain at all -- during or later. -Mel >> El & Ed, >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Ed Ed...I believe it would be okay to mask the pain if you know what is causing the pain (e.g. exercise from golfing), and you are not worried that it is some kind of unknown disease process. Some pain theories indicate you should take pain killers on a regular basis and not wait for the pain to start (since then it is too late). Of course no one should take pain killers (NSAIDS or the opiates) unless you know what you are doing...Pete >> I'm 65 and have had BPH for 10 years. For most of that time I've >> taken Saw Palmetto, and for the last couple of years I added Beta [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > uro at the time. He said, matter-of-factly, that Ibu does not affect > the prostate. Ed...I do not agree with your doctor. Like I wrote above in this thread, NSAIDS are anti-inflammatory prostaglandin blockers (which can be highly detrimental to the stomach lining), and are recommended for many patients with prostatitis (your doctor said "does not affect the prostate" - if he was referring to BPH, maybe, but like I have said, I believe there is a relationship between prostatitis and BPH). Unfortunately, if you ask him how he knows that, he may toss you out on your ear for questioning him, so you have to be very diplomatic and politically correct in how you ask him, unless he is a real nice guy, which most doctors aren't. Dr. Sancha is a nice doctor - perhaps he can offer an opinion on this. Personally, NSAIDS do not relieve my problems (which are involved if you recall), and I can not take them (or will not take them) at length due to my stomach problems...Pete I said, but twice after coming off it, I had retention. > He shrugged and said "coincidence". > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Ed I would like to caution everyone about taking too many NSAID's on a long term basis. NSAID's basically work by blocking prostaglandin's that produce pain and inflammation (but they also block other prostaglandin's that are needed). They can eat a whole in your stomach by two vehicles (direct topical contact, and worse yet, the systemic destruction of the prostaglandin's in the stomach that are needed to provide a healthy stomach lining (mucosa) that protects the stomach from acid. Remember the stomach is a highly acidic environment. I have talked to at least two people in doctors offices who had serious gastro intestinal surgery because they blindly took NSAID's (per their doctor's recommendation) and ended up with serious bleeding/perforation problems. And they were too ignorant to know it when I asked them "didn't you notice your stools getting black". I know the regulars in this group are much smarter than that, but just a word of caution for those who may not be as well informed. I have mentioned this briefly before...Pete > I'm 65 and have had BPH for 10 years. For most of that time I've taken > Saw Palmetto, and for the last couple of years I added Beta Sitosterol [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Jeff >I would like to caution everyone about taking too many NSAID's on a long >term basis. NSAID's basically work by blocking prostaglandin's that produce [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >are much smarter than that, but just a word of caution for those who may not >be as well informed. I have mentioned this briefly before...Pete I understand what you are saying Pete, and I'm very familiar with the meaning of a black stool. Unrelated to this, I occasionally use a product to test for occult blood, and my daily aspirin is enteric coated. I also take the ibuprofen with another product I can (ahem) recommend -- Citrucel, so it's not hitting a completely empty stomach. http://www.testsymptomsathome.com/BII01_instructions.asp The benefit I'm getting from ibuprofen is real. Slept like a baby last night for my usual 6 1/2 hours. Until recently, that's not something I've been able to do for several years. If it kills me, at least I'll go out well rested. (-8 Jeff >> I would like to caution everyone about taking too many NSAID's on a >> long term basis. NSAID's basically work by blocking prostaglandin's [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > product to test for occult blood, and my daily aspirin is enteric > coated. Jeff...just wanted to let you know about the bullshit advertising on the enteric coated stuff (that it "dissolves safely in the duodenum instead of the stomach"). That just means it will eat your duodenum topically (by direct contact) instead of your stomach. But remember what I said, the *main* way that NSAIDS mess up your stomach is by the systemic effect on your stomach prostaglandin's once the drug gets into your bloodstream (which is going to occur whether its enteric coated or not). In my opinion the enteric coated ads are false advertising and shouldn't be allowed. I have written about this in the pharmacy ng. That said, I believe you said you were only taking a small amount of aspirin for your heart, so it shouldn't bother you anyway (aspirin is still an NSAID, like ibuprofen and naprosyn). Naturally it is the higher doses of the NSAIDS (taken several times a day) that are more likely to cause the stomach problems. Let me ask you (and the others), is it only the ibuprofen that has helped you with your urinary problems or have you noticed a similar improvement with higher doses of aspirin or naprosyn (aleve). I always buy the generics for everything...Pete I also take the ibuprofen with another product I can (ahem) > recommend -- Citrucel, so it's not hitting a completely empty stomach. > http://www.testsymptomsathome.com/BII01_instructions.asp [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Jeff >>> I would like to caution everyone about taking too many NSAID's on a >>> long term basis. NSAID's basically work by blocking prostaglandin's [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >the NSAIDS (taken several times a day) that are more likely to cause the >stomach problems. >Let me ask you (and the others), is it only the ibuprofen that has helped >you with your urinary problems or have you noticed a similar improvement >with higher doses of aspirin or naprosyn (aleve). I always buy the >generics for everything...Pete I started taking the ibuprofen because, combined with wrist braces, it helps a lot with a night time problem I have with arthritis in both thumbs which was caused by (yes) an early addiction to Asteroids and Space Invaders. For sufferers from Space Invaders thumb, I can heartily recommend it. The prostate thing was an unexpected bonus. Other than for my heart, I don't take aspirin or any other NSAID, other than Ibuprofen. I may have seen a similar beneficial effect with Vicodin, but since I very seldom take it, it's hard to be sure. It's not an NSAID. I know that I'm getting a better result from 800mg of ibuprofen than I did from 400, but I think I'll try cutting back to 600 and see how that works. Jeff >I also take the ibuprofen with another product I can (ahem) >> recommend -- Citrucel, so it's not hitting a completely empty stomach. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> Jeff >I would like to caution everyone about taking too many NSAID's on a long >term basis. NSAID's basically work by blocking prostaglandin's that [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > are much smarter than that, but just a word of caution for those who may > not be as well informed. I have mentioned this briefly before...Pete Add me to the list of people who had a perforation due to Ibuprofen. I took it under my physicians directions and ended up with a perforated colon. For a while, the doctors couldn't determine what caused the perforation, but in the end, attributed it to Ibuprofen. As an aside, it perforated again 7 months later at the site where the first perforation was corrected. This was due to a stupid idiot of a doctor who didn't know what he was doing when he performed the first surgery. Don >> I'm 65 and have had BPH for 10 years. For most of that time I've taken >> Saw Palmetto, and for the last couple of years I added Beta Sitosterol [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> >> Jeff >>I would like to caution everyone about taking too many NSAID's on a long >>term basis. NSAID's basically work by blocking prostaglandin's that [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Don Just wanted to add - I didn't have black stools or any other indication that the ibuprofen was causing damage. I felt fine one day and the next day - perforation. Don >>> I'm 65 and have had BPH for 10 years. For most of that time I've taken >>> Saw Palmetto, and for the last couple of years I added Beta Sitosterol [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >>> >>> Jeff Jeff, I get the same results as you do with 400mg of ibuprofen. I am convinced the mechanism involves reduction of urine production by the kidneys and it can last for up to eight hours. I only use it when I realy need , like before long rides or flights. Dan >Jeff, I get the same results as you do with 400mg of ibuprofen. I am >convinced the mechanism involves reduction of urine production by the >kidneys and it can last for up to eight hours. I only use it when I >realy need , like before long rides or flights. >Dan I'm not sure that I can attribute the result I'm getting solely to reduced urine production. That could be part of it, but I'm also thinking a reduction in swelling as well as the analgesic effect. On a bad night, here are the typical symptoms. I will awaken an hour and a half after going to bed with a painful desire to urinate. Getting a stream going is well nigh impossible -- more like a fast drip. The only solution is to walk around, and maybe turn on the computer or TV for ten or fifteen minutes, or read sitting up. At that point things have loosened a bit and I can mostly empty my bladder, but I'm sure not entirely. The amount is not particularly large. Then it's back to bed and up again in another hour and a half, and through the same routine again, but not as bad. As morning approaches the symptoms continue to ease, and by the time I finally crawl out of bed I'm pretty much "normal" which simply means urinating every 2 - 3 hours, but nothing difficult or painful -- just real necessary, if you know what I mean. (-8 I should add that about 5 years ago my PSA was elevated (about 4.5), and I had an ultrasound and negative biopsy. One of the urologists that performed the biopsy referred to my prostate as "a whopper" and estimate it at around 85 grams. (-8 Since then, by the way, the PSA has hovered around between 2.5 and 4.5. I've been reluctant to get on a prescription drug, and with the exception of nightly bouts of urinary constipation I would say that my symptoms may have eased slightly since going on the beta sitosterol. Jeff El, Dan & Pete, I took 2 ibu's (total of 400 mgs) last nite at 11:30pm (after bladder emptying) as a test. I slept straight thru till 6:30am this morning ! Woke up, and then peed, then again after another 20 minutes. (normally, I'm up about two-three times during the nite for a leak -- even *with* my Hytrin medication) Also, I have more problems if I sleep or nap on my *back*. When awakening after sleeping like that, I have many more problems (e.g., some urinary incontinence, frequent dribbles, etc). So, sleeping on my side helps quite a bit. I'll test again tonite with *no* ibu and let you know what happens. -Mel Smith > I'll test again tonite with *no* ibu and let > you know what happens. El, Pete and Dan, I emptied bladder at 10:30pm, then went to bed (with *no* ibu's) Had to get up at 2:25am for a pee, and again at 5:30am also, then finally got up at 7:30am. So, it appears that ibu's tested on the *previous* nite helped. But, this is certainly not a scientific trial (in fact the farthest thing from it !) Also, I don't want to be chugging back ibu's for my problems if, in fact, theese drugs are really causing a 'placebo affect' on me. So, I don't know what to do -- maybe some more self-administered tests. -Mel Smith >> I'll test again tonite with *no* ibu and let >> you know what happens. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >-Mel Smith Last night I produced a bit more than 1200 mL of urine... was up a lot and it was bad. The night before, it was about 325 mL and was up only once. No ibu in either case... no reason that I can think of that would account for the difference. The message is that urine production varies a lot, often without explanation. I'm sure there are reasons, it's just that I don't know the reasons. Past experience suggests that the body adjusts its fluid levels when we have a cold or flue... you go through a couple days of being thirsty (body retaining water), then during recovery, peeing a lot (body rejecting water). (Or maybe it's the other way around.) If you happen to have swollen legs because of bad circulation, then lying down can return that fluid to the body, which might then expell it as urine. Exercise, ambient temperature and humidity, etc. could all have an effect. Pizza has a big effect--causes retention! And so on. You might have to accumulate quite a bit of data to find out what is going on. Good luck with your research. Ed >> I'll test again tonite with *no* ibu and let >> you know what happens. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >-Mel Smith Mel, I started on an ibuprofen regimen for arthritis in my hands -- without the slightest thought that it might do something for my nightly urination problem. It was only when I noticed that I was no longer getting up in the middle of the night to pee, that I connected the dots. I don't think that's how the placebo effect works. I believe you are experiencing a benefit. But .... That said, I did some Googling this morning that convinced me to back off on this, and probably discontinue it ... big sigh. Ibuprofen has been shown to significantly decrease the incidence of colon cancer, oral cancers, and possibly other cancers. In addition, long term use apparently reduces the incidence of Alzheimers. BUT... in connection with the VIOXX scare, the FDA has looked at all NSAIDS and is warning against long term use because of an increased risk of cardiovascular disease which some reading indicates may considerably outweigh the benefits. Here's the FDA warning: "Manufacturers of non-prescription (over-the-counter) NSAIDs are being asked to revise their labeling to provide more specific information about the potential CV and GI risks of their individual products and remind patients of the limited dose and duration of treatment of these products in accordance with the package instructions." http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/COX2/default.htm Sorry, I started this thread. I guess I'm back to staggering off to the bathroom three times a night. )-8 >>> I'll test again tonite with *no* ibu and let >>> you know what happens. [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > Sorry, I started this thread. I guess I'm back to staggering off to > the bathroom three times a night. )-8 Jeff you may be panicking too easily. The stomach threat has always been there like I have said, and the CV stuff was all over the TV shortly after the VIOXX crap (how did you miss it :-)). If you are only taking it once a day (at night, and can get improvement from 400 or 600mgs) and it helps you, I would think twice. People have been taking NSAIDS for ages and now all of a sudden there is the CV alert, which will take them years to prove by any kind of controlled studies (warnings and suppositions can be cheap, and the drug companies will always try to bias things in their favor). But I certainly respect your cautiousness and concern. Bottom line is nothing you take that is man made or synthesized is free of all risks (and that can also apply to natural stuff too)....Pete >Jeff, I get the same results as you do with 400mg of ibuprofen. I am >convinced the mechanism involves reduction of urine production by the >kidneys and it can last for up to eight hours. I only use it when I >realy need , like before long rides or flights. >Dan Dan, As you may have noticed from another post I just made, I discovered this morning that the FDA issued a warning last April against the long term use of NSAIDS -- like ibuprofen, because of an increased risk of cardiovascular disease. Looks like your approach is the only safe one. Too bad, I was getting to like sleeping all night. Oh well ..... Jeff >>Jeff, I get the same results as you do with 400mg of ibuprofen. I am >>convinced the mechanism involves reduction of urine production by the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Jeff Hi all, I've been following this thread with great interest, as my typical schedule is 3 or 4 times nightly. Four days ago I started taking 400 mg Ibu at bedtime with no other changes in lifestyle. Two nights I got up once, two nights not at all. Today I had my last follow-up visit with the uro related to a biopsy last January. I took the opportunity to ask him about the issue and it was his opinion that, while there is always a possibility of damage, there is not much of a likelihood if the Ibu is only taken once a day. He was aware of the latest studies but believed that those related more to people taking high doses multiple times daily, typically for arthritis. He was non-committal of course; but, as you know, getting a definitive answer out of a doc is like trying to herd cats. It is just not to be done. I'm going to continue my Ibu regime until I am convinced that a 400 mg dose only 1X daily is problematical. I'd really like to get your continued input on this. FWIW YMMV DFB >>>Jeff, I get the same results as you do with 400mg of ibuprofen. I am >>>convinced the mechanism involves reduction of urine production by the [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >YMMV >DFB Nicky, two days after going off ibuprofen I was up 4 or 5 times, and those visits were not easy ones if you know what I mean. So I did some more reading. While it's true that the FDA has recommended against long term use of NSAIDs, I found a couple of studies, including one from the FDA's own web site, which seemed to indicate (difficult for a layman to read) that the OTC NSAIDs ibuprofen and naproxen (Aleve) didn't have much cardiovascular effect when taken in normal doses. Naproxen was maybe the better of the two in one study and a little worse in the other. There are apparently three other studies funded by the manufacturer of Vioxx which indicate that naproxen has a protective effect, and an unpublished (possibly controversial) study which indicates it's very bad. Pretty confusing. Here are two that I think are worth looking at: http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/vioxx/vioxxgraham.pdf http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/3/17 At any rate, I decided to get off Ibuprofen for awhile and see what effect naproxen has. I've taken one 220mg Aleve before going to bed for the last two nights, and was up after 5 hours the first night and 6 hours the second. Could be worse. I want to give it another couple of weeks and then switch back to ibuprofen, starting with 200mg and increasing to 400mg. After I see how my little experiment works, I'll decide what I want to do, and talk it over with my doctor. Jeff Nicky...I am not a doctor, but the docs can only go by the studies that have been done, and the existing regs that govern non prescription drugs (and we can read about them also as pointed out by Jeff). I agree with what your doctor told you (even though he used his required caveat), and like I have said there is a risk to the stomach mucosa at *high dose (or overdose) continued use* of the NSAID's. In my opinion, if I knew 400 mg of Ibu taken once a day helped my condition (and I did not have any pre-existing stomach problems), I would take it in a heartbeat, and would not worry about the current cardiovascular hype until more conclusive studies are done which could take years. God I wish my problems were that simple. All the NSAID products have the standard warning about not taking more than the recommended dose, or not taking them for more than 10 days if your pain persists (which basically means go to a doctor). Doctors can not, and will not (ever) promise you anything, or guarantee anything (and rightfully so - because of all the friggin lawyers and the malpractice crap these days, and getting worse all the time). But hopefully it is okay for your doctor to tell you it is okay (with his caveat of course) to take 400 mg of Ibu once a day...Pete >>> Jeff, I get the same results as you do with 400mg of ibuprofen. I am >>> convinced the mechanism involves reduction of urine production by [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > YMMV > DFB >Nicky...I am not a doctor, but the docs can only go by the studies that have >been done, and the existing regs that govern non prescription drugs (and we [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] >> YMMV >> DFB Pete, I agree. I guess I would add that it's wise to stick with the lowest effective dose and stay away from any dose that could be interpreted as high. Anyone with problems involving ulcers, heart, liver, and kidneys should think twice, and talk to a doctor, before messing with any of these drugs. In Nicky's case, personally I would try 200mg, just to see what happens, and only go back to 400 if 200 doesn't work. Jeff >>Nicky...I am not a doctor, but the docs can only go by the studies that have >>been done, and the existing regs that govern non prescription drugs (and we [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > >Jeff Thanks for the thought, Jeff. The last two nights I've taken 200mg and gotten up only once each night. With the 400mg it was 50/50 getting up once or not at all. I'll continue with the 200mg for the time being and see how it goes. It is the only NSAID I take with the exception of a coated baby aspirin. Getting up only once is certainly better than the usual 3 or 4 times and the trade off is worth it. Again, thanks to all who responded. >>>Nicky...I am not a doctor, but the docs can only go by the studies that have >>>been done, and the existing regs that govern non prescription drugs (and we [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] >better than the usual 3 or 4 times and the trade off is worth it. >Again, thanks to all who responded. Nicky, don't take ibuprofen and the aspirin together. Ibuprofen has been shown to counteract the blood thinning effect of aspirin. I asked a Kaiser pharmacist how much I should space the two to avoid losing the effect of the aspirin. She recommended that I wait two hours after taking the ibuprofen -- but admitted that she knew of no studies that supported that advice. Personally, I give it about 12 hours, but have no idea if that's enough. Jeff >Nicky, don't take ibuprofen and the aspirin together. Ibuprofen has >been shown to counteract the blood thinning effect of aspirin. I asked [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Jeff Jeff, Again, thanks for the heads up. I know about the interaction of ibuprofen and the aspirin. I take the aspirin at breakfast. Again, thanks. NS |
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