Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / August 2005
CISC ~ Clean Intermittent Self-Catheterization
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Tom Harms - 13 Jul 2005 17:23 GMT My urologist will talk to me next week about doing CISC 4 times a day to give my bladder a chance to normalize. The bladder has probably never been entirely empty for over ten years. He said it would also be necessary in preparation for a TURP or PVP. I just can not visualize myself doing this 4 times a day. I had a cystoscopy 7 years ago and still remember the sensation of the tube advancing to my bladder. I'm wondering how necessary this is at this stage and also whether an indwelling catheter would be a better solution. Any thoughts? Thanks, Tom
P.S. I'm about 62 in good health and have been putting off a TURP for years waiting for a better solution. Looks like I've run out of time for corrective action. Ultrasound of bladder today was normal, except a big prostate that seriously prevented emptying the bladder. Even after voiding, the bladder appeared to be nearly full.
Derek F - 13 Jul 2005 18:25 GMT It does not seem common practice to advise ISC prior to PVP. I have been reading this NG for many years without hearing it. Some Uro's seem to recommend Avodart etc to shrink the prostate in the weeks before the procedure. My symptoms sound very like yours, I cancelled the TURP that I was told that I needed as a matter of urgency in 1996. I am now day twelve Post PVP. Strangely my Uro said after the procedure that I had managed quite well for so long that I would probably have continued to for a considerable time! He did day that my bladder did not seem to have been harmed or stretched. I replied that the urology nurse at another hospital had frightened me with the recommendation that I should ISC at least at night in order to get a good nights sleep. See my post, PVP as a UK NHS patient. Derek.
> My urologist will talk to me next week about doing CISC 4 times a day to > give my bladder a chance to normalize. The bladder has probably never [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > prostate that seriously prevented emptying the bladder. Even after > voiding, the bladder appeared to be nearly full. Ben T - 13 Jul 2005 18:45 GMT Tom
My experience with TURP.
I have BPH and Cancer. Biopsy 4/15/05
T1c Gleason 6, 3+3, 1/12 positive, localized, Age 79, Good health, Taking Proscar. TURP on 6/20/05
My Urologists says it is better for me to have a TURP before having EBRT. Which is not yet scheduled.
TURP performed on: June 20, 2005 Admitted to CMH (Community Memorial Hospital) 7:45 am. Surgery was scheduled for 9:45 am.
My Doctor and Anesthesiologist insisted that a local (spinal anesthesia) was the only way to go. Just prior to the spinal I was given a shot they described will make me drowsy. I was wheeled into the operating room and given the given spinal. The last thing I remember is seeing my doctor positioning himself to start the surgery. When I woke up the doctor was gone and other personnel were undoing the set up and getting me ready to move to the recovery room. In effect this was just like a general anesthesia without the possible complications of a general.
Recovery room. A catheter had been inserted, I don't remember this. It has a two way channel. This was used to flush out the bladder. Clear fluid in, waste and blood out. This set-up remained until the following morning.
June 21, 2005, TURP + 1 day
My doctor visited, about 8:00 am. He said everything went as it should and was satisfied with the surgery. After some discussion and questions I had, he announced that I will be going home as soon as a urine evacuation test was performed. It was OK and we rolled up the tent and went home. With the catheter out I was now on my own. Urinating consisted of passing some blood followed by urine. Some burning and pain, On a scale of 1 to 10, (3)?
June 22, 2005, TURP + 2 days
More of the same, with less pain and burning. All my literature on this states it will be many weeks before this will almost totally subside. I am told to restrict myself to the house for two weeks, because there may be incontinence or urgency problems. I have no continence problem at this point and I don't anticipate any.
June 30, 2005, TURP + 10 days
Progressing as expected. No flow improvement, bleeding is diminishing.
July 11, 2005, TURP + 3 weeks
Progressing as expected. No flow improvement, bleeding is diminishing.
Urgency is much improved. Retention, showing improvement, longer time periods between trips.
I am not yet experiencing any of the benefits of TURP. I am told that it's normal for only 3 weeks out. Ben T
> My urologist will talk to me next week about doing CISC 4 times a day to > give my bladder a chance to normalize. The bladder has probably never been [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > prostate that seriously prevented emptying the bladder. Even after voiding, > the bladder appeared to be nearly full. Derek F - 14 Jul 2005 09:18 GMT Many people are concerned that a biopsy might spread cancer cells but your Uro does a TURP. When I was having my PVP one of the other patients had earlier in the week had a cystoscopy. He said that size of his prostate was so large that they had to slice a piece off in order to get the camera in. He had been kept in hospital due to excessive bleeding and was due to come back for a full body scan. It would seem that urologists have no fears about releasing rogue cells into the body. Derek. Tom
My experience with TURP.
I have BPH and Cancer. Biopsy 4/15/05
T1c Gleason 6, 3+3, 1/12 positive, localized, Age 79, Good health, Taking Proscar. TURP on 6/20/05
My Urologists says it is better for me to have a TURP before having EBRT. Which is not yet scheduled.
TURP performed on: June 20, 2005 Admitted to CMH (Community Memorial Hospital) 7:45 am. Surgery was scheduled for 9:45 am.
My Doctor and Anesthesiologist insisted that a local (spinal anesthesia) was the only way to go. Just prior to the spinal I was given a shot they described will make me drowsy. I was wheeled into the operating room and given the given spinal. The last thing I remember is seeing my doctor positioning himself to start the surgery. When I woke up the doctor was gone and other personnel were undoing the set up and getting me ready to move to the recovery room. In effect this was just like a general anesthesia without the possible complications of a general.
Recovery room. A catheter had been inserted, I don't remember this. It has a two way channel. This was used to flush out the bladder. Clear fluid in, waste and blood out. This set-up remained until the following morning.
June 21, 2005, TURP + 1 day
My doctor visited, about 8:00 am. He said everything went as it should and was satisfied with the surgery. After some discussion and questions I had, he announced that I will be going home as soon as a urine evacuation test was performed. It was OK and we rolled up the tent and went home. With the catheter out I was now on my own. Urinating consisted of passing some blood followed by urine. Some burning and pain, On a scale of 1 to 10, (3)?
June 22, 2005, TURP + 2 days
More of the same, with less pain and burning. All my literature on this states it will be many weeks before this will almost totally subside. I am told to restrict myself to the house for two weeks, because there may be incontinence or urgency problems. I have no continence problem at this point and I don't anticipate any.
June 30, 2005, TURP + 10 days
Progressing as expected. No flow improvement, bleeding is diminishing.
July 11, 2005, TURP + 3 weeks
Progressing as expected. No flow improvement, bleeding is diminishing.
Urgency is much improved. Retention, showing improvement, longer time periods between trips.
I am not yet experiencing any of the benefits of TURP. I am told that it's normal for only 3 weeks out. Ben T
"Tom Harms" <tomharms@cox.net> wrote in message news:UdbBe.55812$iU.44062@lakeread05... > My urologist will talk to me next week about doing CISC 4 times a day to > give my bladder a chance to normalize. The bladder has probably never been > entirely empty for over ten years. He said it would also be necessary in > preparation for a TURP or PVP. I just can not visualize myself doing this 4 > times a day. I had a cystoscopy 7 years ago and still remember the > sensation of the tube advancing to my bladder. I'm wondering how necessary > this is at this stage and also whether an indwelling catheter would be a > better solution. Any thoughts? Thanks, Tom > > P.S. I'm about 62 in good health and have been putting off a TURP for years > waiting for a better solution. Looks like I've run out of time for > corrective action. Ultrasound of bladder today was normal, except a big > prostate that seriously prevented emptying the bladder. Even after voiding, > the bladder appeared to be nearly full. > >
Dave C - 13 Jul 2005 23:55 GMT Between 1998 and April 2005 when I had my pvp I saw 5 uros who all did the standard urodynamic tests on me, but came up with widely differing results. Two of these uros were widely well respected in the South-East region of the US, but they proferred different results and opinions as to what should be done. One uro said I was retaining a lot of urine, another said I was not retaining much but my thickened bladder wall made it look like I was.
In short, what I am saying is that in my experience there is little consensus between urologists and therefore I feel it is a good idea to get second, third and if neccessary, fourth opinions if your gut feeling tells you so.
Specifically, as regards your uro's suggestion to ISC prior to pvp, this does not make any sense to me. As far as the bladder sees it, PVP will remove the restriction to flow, just like ISC does. The bladder will do any adjustment needed after pvp.
Dave
Mr. B. - 14 Jul 2005 01:02 GMT I am now about 3 1/2 months post PVP, and it amazes me the extent to which the bladder does adjust. Immediately after my PVP my urine stream was so strong that it was difficult to control. I understand from previous posts on this board that this was because the bladder had been (prior to PVP) accomodating so as to push the urine through the restricted urethral channel. So, following the PVP this exaggerated pushing through a no longer restricted channel caused the overly strong stream. My bladder has now adjusted and my stream is normal (about how it was when I was a teenager).
Mr. B
> Between 1998 and April 2005 when I had my pvp I saw 5 uros who all did the > standard urodynamic tests on me, but came up with widely differing [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Dave Matthew Emme - 15 Jul 2005 01:08 GMT The reason to start with the ISC is if you are holding on to lots of urine in your bladder after you void. Your urology doc prob wants to give you bladder a chance to decompress and regain the ability to empty well. If you keep more than 200-300cc or so this may be a good idea. The other option is to just keep a foley cath in your bladder for a few weeks before your surgery. This has a higher rate of infection than ISC.
90 year old guys can learn to cath themselves 4 times a day, once they get the hang of it. Most people do just fine.
ME
On 7/13/05 11:23 AM, in article UdbBe.55812$iU.44062@lakeread05, "Tom Harms" <tomharms@cox.net> wrote:
> My urologist will talk to me next week about doing CISC 4 times a day to > give my bladder a chance to normalize. The bladder has probably never been [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > prostate that seriously prevented emptying the bladder. Even after voiding, > the bladder appeared to be nearly full. forlorn hope - 15 Jul 2005 16:18 GMT > My urologist will talk to me next week about doing CISC 4 times a day to > give my bladder a chance to normalize. < > Hi Tom I was in the same position as you and had to do ISC for 9 months prior to my PVP a few weeks ago. I had to use them 4 times a day but after a month retention fell and I was down to twice a day. After 4 months I went to once per day, before bed and was retaining about 100 - 200ml, half of what I was retaining when I started. So it does seem to help! When I started ISC I was using the catheters I was given in hospital when I was admitted with acute retention, and they were size 14Fr. I didn't find these terribly comfortable so when I got the next batch of Speedycath disposable catheters I got size 12Fr, after first checking with my Uro that it would make little difference. These were much more comfortable to use. Doing ISC is much more comfortable than a rigid cystoscopy and you will be quite expert at doing it within a week. Don't even think about an in-dwelling catheter, I had one for a month and couldn't wait to start ISC. Believe me, it's no big deal. If there's anything you want to know about ISC or PVP just ask and I will be happy to help if I can. Huw
Tom Harms - 15 Jul 2005 17:52 GMT Thanks for the info, especially on the disposable catheters. Even if I buy them myself, they are only about $1 each. I think HCPCS Code A4351 is the 12Fr disposable made by Coloplast called SureCath/Conveen Intermittent Catheter, by Rusch called FloCath, by Rochester Medical called Personal Catheter, or by Hollister called Incare Intermittent Catheteer. This is starting to sound more doable. :-)
>> My urologist will talk to me next week about doing CISC 4 times a day to >> give my bladder a chance to normalize. < > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > will be happy to help if I can. > Huw Tom Harms - 15 Jul 2005 22:35 GMT Just started a new thread on this: Disposable ISC ~ TriCare Prime ~ Medicare
My initial searches & calls indicate that disposable Intermittent Self Catheterizing kits are NOT TriCare Prime or Medicare eligible unless there are serious issues with infection. I'll buy myself ($1 each) before re-using a tube. Anyone have experience with this? Tom
> Thanks for the info, especially on the disposable catheters. Even if I > buy them myself, they are only about $1 each. I think HCPCS Code A4351 is [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >> will be happy to help if I can. >> Huw Zork - 19 Jul 2005 20:25 GMT Make sure to check out Astratech catheters. They are self lubricating after being placed in water. Self cath with these is incredibly easy. After a few times you barely feel anything. Something to consider. FWIW Zork ------
>Just started a new thread on this: >Disposable ISC ~ TriCare Prime ~ Medicare [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >>> will be happy to help if I can. >>> Huw Tom Harms - 04 Aug 2005 21:19 GMT I received a very nice package of samples from Astratech. I have an appointment on 15 September at Bethesda Navy with a Urologist that does PVPs. I think I'll wait to start ISC until I see the Doctor. Thanks for all of your help ~ I'll post my results. Tom
> Make sure to check out Astratech catheters. They are self lubricating > after being placed in water. Self cath with these is incredibly easy. [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] >>>> will be happy to help if I can. >>>> Huw
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