My BPH symptoms were first diagnosed in 1995 (I am now 70) when my prostate
was 35g. Flow
and residual tests at that time showed that I had retained 400 mls.and I was
advised to have a TURP as a matter of urgency. After researching TURP I
turned the offer down to wait for something better to come along. TUNA and
TUMP did not really catch on with British urologists and were not readily
available. My symptoms did not change all that much over the years but my
prostate continued to grow to 72g . My PSA was 5.2 in 1995 and latterly
swung between 6.5 and 9.0 and during this time I had three negative
biopsies.
My test results in September 2004 showed my first void as 339 mls with a
QMAX flow of 11.7 mls/sec and a residual of 411 mls. I was asked to void
again 30 minutes later and passed 309 mls this time at QMAX flow of 11.7 and
now a residual of 371 mls. I had been using Saw Palmetto all this time and
had only briefly tried Flowmax and Proscar which caused tachycardia and
headaches.
I read of PVP on it's first mention on this NG and it seemed to be what I
had been waiting for but it was only about two years ago that it arrived in
the UK at Kings College Hospital. The NHS waiting list soon became quite
long there and last year the UK representative for Laserscope Mike Degun
told me that the Freeman Hospital in Newcastle (North East England) had
started doing the procedure. Newcastle is only about 110 miles away from
Edinburgh where I live. I contacted them last October to find how long it
would take to get an appointment and how long the waiting list was for the
procedure. I was told that it was about three months for the initial
appointment with the urologist and probably a further three months to get it
done if accepted as a suitable patient. I liked the Newcastle way of doing
things as they take the patient in on a Thursday for tests, do the procedure
on the Friday and let them out on the Saturday. This seems much less
stressful than being done at break of dawn and out on the street by
lunchtime as Kings College and America do it.
The urologist in Edinburgh agreed to refer me to Newcastle as an NHS patient
and I had my outpatient appointment there with the Staff Urologist John
Davies on January 9th. Mr Davies was very thorough doing all the tests
himself rather than getting a urology nurse to do them. He was already very
enthusiastic and committed to PVP. We spent about 25 minutes discussing its
merits and the benefits of it over TURP. He said that only 25 procedures had
so far been carried out at the hospital as they were only doing them on
Fridays if an operating theatre was available. He had performed six by that
time under supervision and would do mine. The rest had been done by the
consultants Phil Powell and Mr Thorpe.I reckoned that by the time my
procedure
was done they would all be pretty good at it and Mike Degun had said that
they were a 'Red hot team' It was confirmed that the waiting time was still
three months but I might lose out a bit as the NHS area accountants have to
agree to pay for their patients to be done in another Health Authority area.
In early June I got June 30th as the magic admission day with the usual NHS
proviso that you have to phone on the day to confirm that a bed is
available. I phoned at 10 am and was told that Matron was still allocating
beds and that they would call me back within two hours. I explained that I
was coming from a distance by train and that I would need to get the 11 am
train. They called back within five nail biting minutes to confirm that a
bed was available and I arrived at the hospital by 1.30. A doctor was soon
on the scene to examine me, take my
medical history, do blood tests and send me to get an ECG (aka EKG). Soon
John Davies was round to see me followed by the anaesthetist who did his own
medical exam. I have hypertension and am Glucose Intolerant. He was
concerned about my heart murmur and some conflicting
information on the health summary my GP had supplied so I had to go for and
Echo Cardiogram. He was happy with both sets of results and he discussed the
anaesthetic options. I told him that this part was my only fear as an uncle
with angina had arrested and died when undergoing an anaesthetic for a
fairly routine operation and my mother previously a very sharp minded 82
year old had suffered cognitive dysfunctions after major surgery. We
discussed epidural as an option but I was not too keen on that as I have
twice had vaso-vagal syncope, once before an angiogram and the other time
when having a tumour removed from my ear. Where my body is concerned I am
one of the great world cowards:-)
I went down to theatre the next day at 1.30 by now convinced that the
excellent anaesthetist would not kill me! I came round about 4.00PM feeling
a slight pain in my penis and what felt like the need to urinate, however
that feeling was probably due to the catheter being in. John Davies came
round
to see me pleased with how the procedure had gone. He said that they started
lasing at 1.53 and finished at 2.50. He said that the Median Lobe was not
bad and that the Lateral Lobes had been my problem. He described them as
looking like a floppy saggy bottom pressing against each side my bladder. He
said that no bladder neck resection was needed and that Mr Powell tries to
avoid that as it is the cause of retrograde ejaculation. John did the
procedure and said that Phil had been there at the start when they had
planned what to do and that Phil had popped in a couple of times from the
next theatre to see how things were going and again before John had started
on the Lateral Lobes. I had been give shots of two types of broad band
penicillin during the procedure and a shot of morphine.I had every
confidence in John who is a lovely guy, very enthusiastic in what he does
and very caring. Soon I was drinking a cup of tea and waiting for dinner. I
had no pain during the night and did not need any painkillers. I kept on
drinking and watching the catheter bag fill up with a nice Red Wine, it
needed to be emptied three times before the catheter was removed the next
morning at seven.
Now for the moment of truth by peeing on my own. I was drinking plenty (the
nurse said too much) but it was not until 11.45 that I passed a red 100ml.
John came in to see me and said that he would come back in the afternoon and
that if I was voiding properly could go home.He suggested that I might be
dehydrated but I did not think so from the volumes passed in the night. My
wife had already checked out of her hotel as we had assumed that things
would be OK.
1PM 250 ml pink. 2.30 150 ml pink and a scan showed a residue of 193 ml.
2.50PM 190 ml and much lighter but the scan showed 329 ml retained. John
came back in and said that as I had a long journey he would be happier if
stayed overnight. My wife went off to find another hotel as the Best Western
had no vacancies for that night.
5.10PM 220 ml rosy but only due to the few drops of blood at the start.
8.05PM 150 ml retained 290 ml.
11.00PM 300 ml quickly followed by another 100 ml before bed. Woke up at
2.00 AM and passed 500 ml with a decent flow and another 300 ml at 3.45
AM.
7.00AM 300 ml followed by 100 ml at 7.30. but back to my usual slow rate
ending in a weak dribble. Drinking a lot but no more until 10.30 200 ml.
Passed another 250 ml at 11.30 but the scan showed 416 ml retained. We went
for a walk to get some fresh air and missed John's visit (He had said that
he would just phone the ward to check on me) He said that I could go and
that when drinking normally at home things should settle down. He also gave
me a three day course of Trimethoprim.
I was restless the first night at home and kept on going and passed 1700 ml
in small amounts all crystal clear.During the morning I passed a total of
1000 ml in five visits to the toilet. I felt 100% well and set off for a
day at
the local racecourse. Just like any normal day dodging around from the
paddock to the bookies and climbing up the grandstand to get a good view.
With G8 riots going on in Edinburgh we had to take an indirect route. Our
journey took 90 minutes using busses rather than the usual 40.
Normally I get off the bus and go straight to the toilet but not yesterday.
I had two large mugs of coffee and was getting worried that I had not needed
yet and tried about 4.45 and probably passed only 200ml. I seem to get a
period like that every day but the rest of the time my prostate symptoms are
still the same, slow flow that goes down to a trickle and only about 200 ml.
Last night was better waking up at 2.50 and 5.30 passing a total of 800 ml.
I have not been drinking so much today to see what that does and results
have been on the low slow side and I have been forgetting to record the
volumes.
Not worried yet, I am sure that things will gradually adjust. John Davies
did say that my sense of urgency might remain, did he mean forever I forgot
to ask!
Derek.
Magna - 07 Jul 2005 18:17 GMT
Interesting detailed read Derek.The operation seems to have gone well,
keep us posted on improvements.
Derek F - 07 Jul 2005 19:02 GMT
> Interesting detailed read Derek.The operation seems to have gone well,
> keep us posted on improvements.
Well on day six I did not follow Forlorn Hopes morning of passion:-) My wife
laughs at this and asks me to remind her of the last one! Although I must
admit to waking with partial erections most mornings from day two.
My flow is still no better than it was before the procedure and still goes
down to final dribble but is blood free apart from a very occasional faint
pink at the start. The volume is mainly less than before when it used to be
mainly 300ml. Now it varies from 150 to 200 mls with 300 being the
exception. Yesterday I went from 4 PM until 11.30 PM without needing. I was
beginning to get concerned at this personal best as I had been drinking
plenty as usual. Sadly I only managed 200 ml at the end of it. I have only
wakened twice during the past three nights instead of the usual three or
four. The average from just before bedtime to just after getting up has been
1000 ml. It's early days, I am quite confident that things will improve
gradually. It would be interesting to know how much I am now retaining, the
urologist suggested that my GP might be able to do this at his surgery.
For the past 16 months I have often had discomfort in the pelvic area. My
urine tests were always clear of infection and I drank cranberry juice which
helped. I have avoided Cranberry juice since the procedure as others have
reported an acid burning feeling when taking it after their PVP and the
feeling of discomfort is back.
Circumstances forced me to stay home on Tuesday and yesterday was wet so we
did not go far. Today the weather was fine so we had a three mile walk along
the seafront. I have felt perfectly well from day one but did feel rather
listless yesterday morning but do not put any sinister connotation to that.
Derek.
huw - 08 Jul 2005 12:57 GMT
"Derek F" <lordpilrig@NOXbtinternet.com> wrote in message news:dajqo3
> I have avoided Cranberry juice since the procedure as others have
> reported an acid burning feeling when taking it after their PVP and the
> feeling of discomfort is back.
3 weeks, 2 days ex PVP
Since my last post to the group I have started passing a small amount of
blood as I begin to urinate. It just lasts a moment but is enough to turn
the urine pink for a second or two before it returns to normal. I have read
that this is common and probably part of the healing process but I
understand it can also be a sign of an infection beginning. So I was
interested in your post, Derek, as I was just about to go out and buy some
cranberry juice! I haven't heard of PVP patients avoiding it before now,
has anyone read of any adverse effects or got any further information? Now
that three weeks have passed perhaps I can drink it without it causing
irritation?
Apart from this slight bleeding everything is still progressing as well as I
reported before.
Huw
Derek F - 08 Jul 2005 20:41 GMT
> "Derek F" <lordpilrig@NOXbtinternet.com> wrote in message news:dajqo3
>> I have avoided Cranberry juice since the procedure as others have
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> reported before.
> Huw
I wonder if Cranberry Capsules act any differently from the juice. I tried
the capsules from Holland and Barretts for the first time when I went on
holiday.
Derek.
James - 09 Jul 2005 00:14 GMT
"Derek F" wrote: I wonder if Cranberry Capsules act any differently from the
juice.
Below are three 'pasted in' copies of posts I made a few months after my PVP
last Nov:
"I can tell you this: AFTER a PVP procedure, DO NOT take cranberry
juice/supplements. It's akin to pouring gasoline on a fire. The cranberry
juice/supplement renders your urine highly acidic and burns the already
inflamed urethra."
James
"I began taking cranberry capsules on day 17 after PVP. By day 19, I
experienced the worst pain ever.
I nearly took Prosed/DS. Before actually taking the Prosed, I figured out
the purpose of Prosed - to de-acidify the urine.
I immediately stopped the cranberry capsules - and within 24-hours, the
burning was gone.
By day 60, I observed any tenderness at the end of voiding was about gone -
so, in answer to you question [how long after the PVP], I'd say 'at least
2-months - preferably 3-months. By 3-months, I'd be inclined to think one's
urethra had completely healed - and taking on a cranberry regimen shouldn't
pose any problems.
But, I cannot speak to any of the so-called 'benefits' attributed to
cranberry juice/supplements."
James
"Since, anti-biotics are prescribed for all post-PVP
patients as an infection preventative, I see no benefit in taking cranberry
juice/supplements after PVP."
James
Derek F - 09 Jul 2005 01:29 GMT
My caring NHS uro phoned me today (Friday, Day 7). I said, You just caught
me in time, I was about to lock the door. He said that he was glad that I
felt like going out. I told him where I had been on Monday and other days.
He is delighted with my progress and I proudly said that I had slept till
6.15 this morning when I passed 450 ml followed by 300 at 8.20. Although it
is not flowing any faster. He suggested a do it yourself flow test! If you
have a yard or can find an unobserved flat surface you should pee and
measure how far it travels. Next time if the flow is better it will have
spread further!.
He suggests that I should take a urine sample to my doctor for testing to
make sure that it is protein and infection free and to get a scan to see how
much retention I now have. He warns that weeks two and three are when
bleeding can be expected as scabs detach. Drink plenty of water to keep well
flushed out as any weak spot can let germs in. I asked if it is a series of
scabs or one big one. He said that the whole lased area is a scab and it all
has to eventually come off to leave a new surface. Huw who had it done
three weeks ago started to pass some blood last week but no scabs yet!
I asked what he had meant when saying that my urgency would remain. He said
that it might remain but could improve. He suggests that various factors
including my Hypertension and Glucose Intolerance could cause me to pass
more urine at night than during the day.I said that running taps and
sometimes standing up can create an urge. He said that he sometimes
prescribes Alpha Blockers to relax the bladder.
I mentioned the discomfort in my pelvic area and said it often seems to
happen to people who have taken Saw Palmetto for a long time but that there
is no proof of the connection. I had taken Saw Palmetto for ten years. He
commented!!! that I had done well in that time in avoiding bladder and
kidney damage and that I could probably have continued in the same way for
some time yet. I replied that on first hearing of PVP I was ready for it and
that the urology nurse at the Edinburgh hospital had put the frighteners on
me by saying that I should start using a catheter at nights to drain my
bladder in order to get a good nights sleep.
We spoke of Cranberry Juice and he had not heard of any reports that it
caused burning.
He said that new patients are being given a November date for surgery. The
word is either spreading or it may be because they prefer PVP for the bigger
prostates.
He was on the phone for about 40 minutes. Private patients do not get that
service. I should phone his secretary if I have any questions or problems.
Derek.
> "Derek F" wrote: I wonder if Cranberry Capsules act any differently from
> the
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> James
DerekF - 16 Jul 2005 21:30 GMT
I had hoped by now to able to make a gushing report. However at day 15
things have not progressed as hoped for, my flow is only slightly better and
still goes down to a slow trickle.
Last Sunday night (day 9) produced what seemed to be my first clear blood
free stream. On Monday I went to see my GP with a urine sample as my
urolgist wanted it checked to confirm that I had no infection lurking
around. I handed him what looked like a phail of decent chardonnay. Putting
his dipstick in it he announced that it was full of blood and also some
protein. The sample went off for testing and not having heard otherwise I
assume that it was OK. I also said that the urologist wanted me to have an
ultrasound scan to check my retention. He could not do it at the surgery and
said that he would arrange for it to be done at the Local Community Health
Centre. Today I received a letter from theHealth Centre about my Ultra Sound
Testes examination! Bollocks, how do requests get so misunderstood?
I am continuing to drink up to 4 litres of liquids a day so that may be the
reason that I am still peeing as often as before the PVP, ten times during
the day and three times in the night. My daytime voids are invariably around
200 mls but the night time ones are usually 300/400 mls. That is a twenty
four hour total of over 3 litres. Since Tuesday the final one during the
night has been quite bloody and that continues into the morning before going
back to an initial red spurt on most occasions. I have passed a few flakes
of blood each day and some very small clots but yesterday morning passed a
raisin sized one. On Wednesday I was out all day and found that I was not
passing more that 50/100 when I took the opportunity to go despite having
had two mugs of coffee and drinking a half litre bottle of water. By bed
time I was getting concerned that I must be retaining a large volume. During
the night I produced 550 mls during three visits to the toilet but the flow
went back to what is now the norm during the day. Obviously I am one of
patients who recover gradually, others can be Hares but this Tortoise will
win in the end.
Derek.
Derek F - 05 Aug 2005 20:39 GMT
An update on my post PVP condition on day 35. All bleeding had stopped by
day 21, mostly it had just been a little spurt at the start of urination
with just odd times when the urine was discoloured and that seemed to happen
more during the night. Any clots were quite small, some looked like little
flakes. Only once was there a bigger one and that was about the size of a
raisin.
The discomfort that I mentioned in my pelvic area in earlier posts also
disappeared around day 21. I have not passed any scabs; all I can report are
sometimes tiny particles in my urine the largest of which could be described
as being like little crumbs of brown bread.
My flow rate has started to improve quite a bit this week but it does not
seem that forceful.yet. I am keeping a record of the volume passed and the
number of times I go. As I have cut my liquid intake back to normal levels
(about 2.5 litres a day) I find that this week I have been going about ten
times in twenty four hours, passing 150/300 mls at a time but the two or
three times during the night result in 300/500 mls at a time. When I was
drinking more I was going about thirteen times a day.
I asked my GP to get a urine sample checked for infection and as I did not
hear from him I assume that it was O.K. He also arranged for a scan to check
for retention at the local Community Health Centre. Unfortunately I have not
much faith in the scan results. Having been measuring my output for the past
few weeks I am quite good at estimating how much I pass. I had passed 150
mls at 1.55 prior to drinking a pint of water an hour before the 3 pm scan.
The doctor did the scan and then asked me to use the toilet. They were not
doing a flow test and there was not a jug to urinate into. I felt that I had
passed a good 200 mls. When she did the next scan she said that I was
retaining 100 mls. I asked how much she had recorded on the first scan and
she said about 200 mls. When I said that felt that I had passed much more
than 100 mls she said that the equipment was quite new and should be
accurate.
I can also report no retro.
Derek.
Magna - 07 Aug 2005 15:32 GMT
Derek, glad things seem to be improving slowly. Do you have contact
details for Mike Degun of Laserscope uk? Phone no if poss? Thanks
Derek F - 07 Aug 2005 21:48 GMT
Magna, your Hotmail address did not work for me to reply to. Send me your
E-Mail address as I don't want to put Mikes personal phone number on a
public NG.
Derek.
lordpilrig@btinternet.com
> Derek, glad things seem to be improving slowly. Do you have contact
> details for Mike Degun of Laserscope uk? Phone no if poss? Thanks
Magna - 08 Aug 2005 08:02 GMT
Derek, should be working ok now, I let it lapse!