Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate BPH / July 2005
My PVP - 15th June. (Long story)
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forlorn hope - 18 Jun 2005 11:45 GMT I decided I might as well do it in style so we flew to London and booked into a 4 star hotel in Sloans Square for a couple of nights. On Wednesday morning I arrived at Kings College Hospital at 7.30am as instructed and was immediately whisked into the Day Surgery Ward. I was told that I was going straight to surgery and was undressed and on a trolley 5 minutes after arrival. Mr Muir came to see me and after I signed the consent form he had a chat. It appeared that he was running a course on PVP that week and asked if three visiting surgeons from Portugal and Slovakia could view the procedure. I didn't care - I have no pride!
By 8am I was wheeled into theatre and then.................. the laser broke down! It appeared that it was carrying out its self testing routine and kept shutting down when it got to no.10, whatever that was. I was wheeled back to the ward where I was able to say to the other three guys waiting that it felt like nothing had happened! Then I had a long wait, and I admit I was a bit stressed as you don't like to think of the thing breaking down when its going to be used on you. I told Carole, my wife, that I was going to ask them to core an apple with it before me, so I could see it was working! Well, in the event they couldn't repair it and Mike Degum, the Lasercope rep who was at the hospital, went off to borrow another laser. (Lister Hospital?)
Eventually it arrived and I was wheeled in again, by this time it was 10.30am, and given the anaesthetic. By the way, this was my first-ever anaesthetic and I didn't like it being administered, it felt like a hot clamp being tightened onto my arm, a bit painful. Later the anaesthetist told me that about 10% react this way to anaesthetic and no-one is sure why.
I came to and was wheeled back to the ward and my wife. I felt fine and was given a tuna sandwhich and a cup of tea. The anaethetist popped in to see how I was. I asked him how it had gone and he replied, "Fine, without incident.", and then politely searching for something to say he uttered words I hope I never hear addressed to me again, "you vapourised well." My wife said, "Who wouldn't?"
I had no catheter fitted which surprised me. Mr Muir said everything had gone well but he wanted me to pass urine three times and have an ultrascan before leaving. This was because of my retention history. I drank loads of water and eventually was ready to urinate. It was desultory, a trickle! I passed water a couple more times as instructed, still poor, and was scanned - 350ml. I was a bit miserable at this, but Mr Muir said he expected it as my bladder had been stretched over a long period. Try again, he said. I did and this time the scan was 270ml. I thought he would catheterise me but he seemed calm about it and told me to do ISC on Friday (yesterday) morning and ring him with the results.
I went back to the hotel and we had dinner in our room. Urination continued to be a problem and I realised that it was now worse than before the PVP. I went to bed a bit unhappy. I got up to urninate at 4am and could hardly go, just a couple of bloody drops but I knew my bladder was full. I went back to bed and relaxed as best I could then got up and tried again. This time I passed a bit more, but I knew there was alot in my bladder and I wondered whether to use a catheter. In the end cowardice won (I didn't fancy inserting it) and I went back to bed, very despondent. I got up for breakfast and went sadly to the bathroom and wham - a torrent! That's how it's been since then, stronger and stronger until now I'm back to how I was twenty years ago. I did ISC (painful!) yesterday as instructed and found I was retaining 40ml - hardly anything by my lights! I was delighted and have emailed Mr Muir and am now awaiting his reply.
The other thing I must report is that I feel so well, I can't believe I've had an operation. I have to keep reminding myself to take things easy. So far I have had no pain whatsoever and have no sensation of having had the PVP except for a slight tingling on urination. The downside of this is that I spent Thursday being dragged round the Kings Road by my wife looking at clothes. I tried on lots of pair of trousers etc and kept thinking 'how can I be doing this less than 24 hours after what is supposed to be a serious operation?'
So, the upshot of all this is that I am absolutely delighted with my PVP. I am back to urinating just a few times a day, instead of popping in and out of the loo several times before going anywhere. I realise it's early days but my stream is vigorous and I feel great. I am taking an antibiotic of course and Ibuprofen every 8 hours to reduce inflamation. No more Flomax, and I hope (depending on Mr Muir's reply) no more catheters. I still smile when I think of a couple of hours after the operation. I was dressed and waiting to leave, feeling fine and with no sensation of having undergone surgery. Mr Muir came by with the three foreign doctors and I jumped up to have a word. "This was our first patient" said Mr Muir to the doctors. Their faces were an absolute picture of astonishment, and having spent time in a Uro ward with recovering TURP patients I can see why!
The internet is an amazing thing. Without it and this group I would never have heard of PVP, certainly not from my local urologists. I am very grateful to Derek F. for valuable information and correspondence off list, and others who have discussed and written about PVP. Also nambucca and one or two others whose names I forget, who steered me towards the very capable hands of Mr Muir.
Huw
Ron - 18 Jun 2005 22:01 GMT You've got to change your email name to "great success" Best of Luck on a sweet recovery, Ron
> From: "forlorn hope" <forlorn.hope@ntlworld.com> > Organization: NTL [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > > Huw Derek F - 18 Jun 2005 23:58 GMT I was about to suggest hope fulfilled. Derek.
> You've got to change your email name to "great success" > Best of Luck on a sweet recovery, [quoted text clipped - 148 lines] >> >> Huw frank - 18 Jun 2005 22:36 GMT wonderful story; congratulations. however, don't give it an unhappy ending by being too active too soon. believe me, you will repent at leisure (unhappily). patience, patience, patience.
>I decided I might as well do it in style so we flew to London and booked > into a 4 star hotel in Sloans Square for a couple of nights. [quoted text clipped - 120 lines] > > Huw Dave C - 19 Jun 2005 02:12 GMT Thanks for your detailed account and I hope your recovery will be fast and uneventful.
I second not doing to much too soon. I found it so easy to overdo it in the first few weeks because I had so much energy.
I remember you mentioning you were going to Ladakh in August. Do you still intend to go trekking in the Himalayas?
Dave
forlorn hope - 19 Jun 2005 09:36 GMT > Thanks for your detailed account and I hope your recovery will be fast and > uneventful. Thanks to all of you for your good wishes. Things are still the same, I have no discomfort whatsoever and no sensation of having undergone surgery. Bladder appears to be emptying as far as I can tell without ISC.
> I second not doing to much too soon. I found it so easy to overdo it in the > first few weeks because I had so much energy. It's so easy to forget. Yesterday I lifted our border collie into the back of the car without thinking. It was about 10 minutes later when it occurred to me what I'd done, and I thought "you stupid......." I will be more mindfull.
> I remember you mentioning you were going to Ladakh in August. Do you still > intend to go trekking in the Himalayas? Yes, flying to Leh on August 14th. I'm getting my vaccinations tomorrow, a whole string of them from rabies to meningitis and all the hepatitis' . Mr Muir says they won't impede on my recent surgery. The trek goes over a couple of 5000metre passes and is hot in the day and very cold at night. I wasn't looking forward to doing ISC in a tent at -15 at altitude. I remember doing the Annapurna Circuit (before my BPH problem) and what happened to my toothpaste tube at altitude and although I know it's silly I could imagine all sorts of scenarios with my catheters......... Hopefully I won't face that problem now.
Huw PS Thanks for the suggestions but I don't think I'd better change my email yet! I realise it's very early days and I don't want to tempt providence.
Jim W. - 20 Jun 2005 19:38 GMT Good job! Jim W.
>I decided I might as well do it in style so we flew to London and booked > into a 4 star hotel in Sloans Square for a couple of nights. [quoted text clipped - 120 lines] > > Huw Magna - 22 Jun 2005 14:53 GMT Great News Huw. keep up the progress reports!
forlorn hope - 22 Jun 2005 18:29 GMT "Magna" <magna149@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> Great News Huw. keep up the progress reports! Hi Magna Thanks! First week over and I'm still delighted with the results. I hope I'm not tempting providence when I say I don't think I am retaining at all now, but if I am it must be a tiny amount. I'll wait another couple of weeks and then try ISC at the same time I used to do it, and see what the result is. It's great to able to go to a public urinal whistling casually and just urninate and leave, instead of going into a cubicle and waiting, and waiting. No drops, drips or dribbles and wearing light coloured trousers without a care....... I've started to go for longer walks, about 90 minutes or so, but being very careful not to lift anything. I quite enjoyed supervising my wife mow the lawn today .... "you've missed a bit!" I guess I'll have to start doing chores again in another week or so. Huw
Steven Schwartz - 22 Jun 2005 20:09 GMT Glad all is going well. Just one question.... what is "ISC"? Steve
>"Magna" <magna149@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> Great News Huw. keep up the progress reports! [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I guess I'll have to start doing chores again in another week or so. >Huw forlorn hope - 22 Jun 2005 23:03 GMT > Glad all is going well. > Just one question.... what is "ISC"? > Steve "Intermittent self catheterisation" After being hospitalised with acute retention last September I wore an in-dwelling catheter for about a month. When they removed it I continued to retain between 150 and 250ml in my bladder (and much more if I drank a lot) I was shown how to do ISC and told to do it daily to avoid another infection. I would do it every night before bed. The PVP would appear to have cured me not only of BPH and the need for flomax but also a lifetime of self catheterisation, hence my enthusiasm! Huw
daddyo - 23 Jun 2005 01:37 GMT Hello Huw, Great to hear your progress. It nostagically reminded me of my early days. The public urinal thing is very relevant.... Warning.. after 3 weeks I got blood clots passing which put me right off the public urinal for quite a while. Again after 12 weeks more clots and blood actually in a public toilet but fortunately after the earlier clots ,I was in a cubicle. Only after 6 months was I confident of the open toilets again. No clots for me after 3 months ,but some posters report clots much later.
all the best Richie
>"Magna" <magna149@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> Great News Huw. keep up the progress reports! [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I guess I'll have to start doing chores again in another week or so. >Huw Magna - 23 Jun 2005 08:08 GMT Huw, Did Mr Muir do any work on the bladder neck as I am told some work may need to be done on mine? It would be reassuring to know that I could expect similar results. Did you have urgency and frequency or any other symptoms apart from the retention before and do you have any now? (from your posts I would assume not!) Best wishes, Magna
forlorn hope - 23 Jun 2005 09:18 GMT > Huw, Did Mr Muir do any work on the bladder neck as I am told some work > may need to be done on mine? Yes he told me in advance that the median lobe protrusion was such that he would have to do a lot of work in this area. He told me this would proabably result in retro and he was right. This doesn't particularly concern me.
Did you have urgency and frequency or any
> other symptoms apart from the retention before and do you have any now? > (from your posts I would assume not!) Not urgency but I always seemed to be piddling - my stream was fairly pathetic even with flomax and I never passed much at one time. Because I was retaining so much I guess I just kept topping up and having to go again... If we were going out I might go three times in ten minutes each time producing a little. My wife said I went to the loo every hour or so during the day and she's probably about right. This would now seem to be a thing of the past and when I do go I produce a strong stream which starts well and ends without any dribbles or drips. Just like when I was a lot younger! I think you mustn't be put off by posts from people who have problems after PVP. That's why they're still posting. The vast majority have good results and probably no longer read this group. I hope I will be one of them, although I appreciate it is early days.
Richie, thanks for your warning. I know I'm not out of the woods yet and I will be careful. I don't seem to have had any bleeding other than a couple of drips on the first afternoon, will that make blood clots less likely? Does everyone pass blood clots, some worse than others, or do only a few have that problem? I should have asked Mr Muir about this....
Best wishes Huw
Derek F - 23 Jun 2005 17:18 GMT >> Huw, Did Mr Muir do any work on the bladder neck as I am told some work >> may need to be done on mine? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > proabably result in retro and he was right. This doesn't particularly > concern me. You have tried ALREADY?
> Did you have urgency and frequency or any >> other symptoms apart from the retention before and do you have any now? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > be > one of them, although I appreciate it is early days. I think that it is very true that the success stories stop posting soon afterwards. Derry who had a PVP at Kings College by your consultant in 2003 being a case in point. I keep in touch with him and he has had no problems apart from a bleed after doing heavy lifting.
> Richie, thanks for your warning. I know I'm not out of the woods yet and > I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Best wishes > Huw I have never really understood the blood clot part as all the blood vessels should have been sealed off. As it is day surgery and you go home as soon as your urine is fairly clear, why should there be more blood? Two weeks from now I hope to able to personally report another success story. Huw, you are in danger of becoming the biggest success story since Patrick. Derek.
forlorn hope - 24 Jun 2005 12:58 GMT "Derek F" <lordpilrig@NOXbtinternet.com> wrote in message news:d9enbp$ob2
> You have tried ALREADY? I blame you in part. You sent me the handbook on PVP from Royal Freeman Hospital in which it clearly states "sexual activity may be resumed as soon as you feel ready." Well I did. On Tuesday.
Two weeks from
> now I hope to able to personally report another success story. I'm sure you will be able to and I look forward to reading about it. Best wishes Huw
Derek F - 24 Jun 2005 16:39 GMT > "Derek F" <lordpilrig@NOXbtinternet.com> wrote in message news:d9enbp$ob2 >> You have tried ALREADY? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Best wishes > Huw Mr Muir told you of a guy who played golf on day two and another who skied on day six. Now he will tell future patients of a guy who Bonked on day six! It's a wonder you did not try for the Mile High Club on the flight home. Derek.
daddyo - 24 Jun 2005 01:23 GMT hello huw,
The clots are like scabs left in the remains of the prostate.Like all scabs they eventually come loose,sometimes accompanied by slight bleeding. It is the latter which colours the urine and can make it look like pure blood.
I am in the large (over 100gm) prostate category,which according to my experience and others on this newsgroup, has far more clotting and bleeding afterwards. I had almost half of a 135g prostate removed.
It sounds as though you will avoid any of this. It was no big worry for me after the initial shock wore off and it was amazing how the large clots passed so easily.
Another factor is that I had a small TURP during the PVP which was explained as not wanting to use the laser too close to the sphincter muscle.My prostate was found to be unusually formed as the operation proceeded.
I am now at 10 months and A-OK.
And Magna...good luck with your upcoming procedure.
Richie
forlorn hope - 24 Jun 2005 13:00 GMT <snip useful information>>
> It sounds as though you will avoid any of this. It was no big worry > for me after the initial shock wore off and it was amazing how the > large clots passed so easily. Thanks Richie, that's very reassuring. Huw
Hal K - 29 Jun 2005 23:31 GMT I am thinking of having the TUMT procedure so I can urinate w/o FloMax. I am afraid of the possible side-effects. Would you please tell me what PVP is? Also, are you still doing as well as when you posted your account of your operation?
>I decided I might as well do it in style so we flew to London and booked >into a 4 star hotel in Sloans Square for a couple of nights. [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] > >Huw
 Signature Hal
Dave C - 30 Jun 2005 01:53 GMT Hal,
I am not Huw, and I am sure he will respond, but my experience of pvp may also be useful. Pvp or Photoselective Vaporization of the Prostate uses a laser in the green spectrum to burn away prostate tissue. More can be found at :
http://www.laserscope.com/surgical/consumers/greenlight.html
My reasons for having the procedure were to get off Flomax and to save my bladder from further damage. I took Flomax for 7 years prior to pvp and it worked well to increase flow but I really did not like the idea of taking it for the rest of my life. I am 54.
My procedure was in April of this year, about 10 weeks ago. Unlike Huw, the immediate results were not wonderful. I wore a catheter for 7 days because my uro had done a lot of work around the bladder neck and he felt the catheter would reduce scarring. After the catheter was removed my flow was better but only if I continued taking Flomax.
My uro was sure I would have retrograde ejaculation and I did for the first two months, though I did not mind particularly.
Now, 10 weeks later, my flow is excellent, I do not take Flomax and my retro has gone. I think the Flomax had weakened the sensation of orgasm for me because when I stopped taking it the sensation became heightened. This was an unexpected and very pleasant bonus, as was being able to sleep though the night without waking up every 2 hours to go to the bathroom.
I am now very happy that I had the procedure, though I certainly had my doubts in the first few weeks. If you search "pvp" on this forum you will find more information.
Hope this was of some help,
Dave
forlorn hope - 30 Jun 2005 19:35 GMT Hi Hal Dave has given you a good link for the PVP. My research led me to prefer it to TUMT or TURP as I felt it was less invasive and there was less chance of side effects. (AFAIK there have been NO cases of impotence caused through PVP) I am still feeling 100% and went for my first hard hill walk yesterday as I have to get back to a good level of fitness for my Himalayan trek in August. I had no problems afterwards and still haven't suffered any discomfort or inconvenience since the PVP. I am 59 and was facing a lifetime of daily self-catheterising so did not have many doubts about going for the PVP, as opposed to continuing with a regime of Flomax and catheters. Touch wood, it seems to have been completely successful for me. I received a letter from Mr Muir, my urlogist a couple of days ago in which among other things he mentioned that he carried out the vaporisation with 168,000 joules of energy. My wife said that Superheroes have been created with less, I could have been 'Prostate Man' - we speculated for a while on what my super powers might have been ........ Seriously, it made me realise the operation is not trivial. I don't know whether I would have been so determined to have it if my condition could have been helped by Flomax alone but I'm sure you appreciate that the result for me has been so good that it is hard for me to give an unbiased opinion. Good luck with whatever treatment you choose. Huw
Jack - 02 Jul 2005 16:23 GMT Hi Huw, That 168,000 J translates, assuming they used the 80W laser, to the laser being on for 35 minutes. A joule per second is a watt, or a watt-second is a joule. So each second the laser was on 80 watts of power were developed. However, my best guess is that 30% of the power generated is lost in the transmission of the power to the tip of the wand where it exits the wand and hits the prostate to vaporize the tissue. If my assumption is correct you then absorbed about 118,000 J of energy in 35 minutes. Hey the bottom line is it did the job!
Jack
Forlorn hope" <forlorn.hope@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:DXWwe.17368$%O1.15709@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> Hi Hal > Dave has given you a good link for the PVP. My research led me to prefer [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Good luck with whatever treatment you choose. > Huw forlorn hope - 03 Jul 2005 10:10 GMT > Hi Huw, > That 168,000 J translates, assuming they used the 80W laser, to the laser > being on for 35 minutes. <snip interesting facts> Thanks Jack, that's very interesting to know. Physics was never my strength! As you say, the main thing is that it did the job and did it well. Huw
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